View Full Version : Beorn the Sword: C3C - BtS noob conversion
And he is looking forward to know how to play this new game.
So I've pretty much overplayed C3C for my own sake and I'm certain I'll have remnants of that in my C4W game. I signed up for team CDZ on SGOTM 4 of the other forum. We'll see how that goes. I also signed up for the 18 players game thing. That one will go bad. If anyone is interested in a co-op MP game, so that I can learn something, I'd welcome the thought.
Questions:
1- Food is power, still true?
2- Civics and religions, do you treat those like governments in C3C, get ASAP and trade for mucho money, or do you play it differently?
3- I read a lot more of whipping in spoilers, is it much better?
4- How do artillery units work now, the civilopedia didn't convince me it was still the same...
5- I understand that civs in CIV are big fans of the status quo. Will the klarius fast conquest approach be met with increased resistance? Is this how they manage large empires as opposed to corruption, by making sure everyone stacks against you?
6- With one strenght of attack only, how does one gadge what to build for offenses?
7- Is the old tech approach of getting techs without wonders and offensive units first, in hopes of trading, still viable?
Thanks everyone.
1. Food is power- Yes to a large extent, food lets you run more specialists/ work more cottages more/ more mines etc, not in the same respect in c3c so, food is not power in that you can spam settlers. Civ4 you can get buy with building 2 cities the entire game (conquering the rest).
2. Civics and religions, its upto you how you play it really, religious techs such as meditation etc arn't of that much value to the AI but techs such as code of laws are (courthouses), i personally would say that civic techs are far more important than religous techs as often i dont found a religion and merely take one.
3. Whipping is dramatically improved, im not much of a c3c player anymore so i cant remember much of it but it is very usefull with the happiness caps, it also comes into play with the whole food is power aspect, the more food the higher the population and thus the more you can whip.
4. artillery units are vastly different now, they are now stand alone units that can't be captured and used against you. Not only now can they attack individual units but they inflict collateral damage on other units in that stack regardless of whether or not they beat the inital unit they attacked or not
5.Im not too sure what you mean by this question, are you referring to multi player? regardless the AI are a lot more sensitive in civ4 than c3c, they dont like you picking on their friends. they also can actually attack decently, especially with the new patch.
6. primarily through the promotions a unit an obtain, for instance give units city raider promotions if they are going to attack cities, strength and cover if they're attacking archery units in the open, city defence if they are defending in cities etc etc.
7. Not really, tech trading is not allowed until alphabet that is why the majority of tactics on the higher level centre around racing to alphabet first and selling it off to all the AI that dont have it for every tech you dont have. Grabbing offensive techs however is worthwhile in that you can then go batter folk.
i hope this answers your questions ok, im sure folk who know more about the game will put straight what ive just said shortly.
1. Not really, but population is power. Slavery is more important as are specialists and great people but you cannot use both, so you've got to decide at which point what is used (slavery versus caste system). If the food is limited, neither of these features can be used efficiently. So, food enables features but how player uses these features is up to the player. And granary is still a must-build, even more in Civ4 versus Civ3. It is not that simple though.
2. Religion is a nice aspect but not really critical. There is only a handful of critical civics, - Monarchy, Slavery, and Caste system (sometimes against AI Pacifism might be important). Other civics might help but are not critical since you don't win or lose game because of them.
3. Yes, it is.
4. Catapults with collateral are very important. Especially against human players. Other later artillery units are nice but not that critical. To work, cats have to be sacrificed and it is OK because they are cheap. Bombarding city defences is also required but you don't need a catapult horde to do that.
5. There is no corruption, so bigger is always better if you do it right without falling too much behind in techs or alienating other players in a MP game so that they gang up on you while you are still even or slightly behind in techs. If you are much bigger than the sum of those who gang up on you and have even slight tech lead, you win. Just build more units and catapults.
6. You build whatever you can plus many catapults.
7. Not really, farmer's gambit might work occasionally on lower difficulty levels (it is now called Academy gambit or Civil Service slingshot in vanilla but not in warlords or Philosophy slingshot or Great Scientist gambit or whatever) but you have to expand fast and often by military means. If you don't expand, you lose especially in MP games.
Alright, thanks a bunch, sounds good.
I guess I got the very basics and can manoeuver into the game. I kept getting high food starts and realized it's easy to give yourself great peeps increase then. I guess it's worth it on the long run, but I still don't fully appreciate them I guess. I'll have to make more for myself.
Re 7- Why not in warlords? Will the AI trade less ? Or is it just much more sensible to axemen/catapults rush?
8- About land improvement: cottages, what's up with those? On most tiles without ressources, the only option you have is a cottage. Is it because I should be a wee bit more patient and wait for mills? I understand that an early cottage becomes huge, but how can one increase food and shield count meanwhile? And forests, are they always best off cleared?
7. Depends on particular situation, there is no universal recipe. Some AIs (Tokugawa etc.) will trade only later in game and only with a very nice relationship. Most AIs do not trade most valuable techs until much later. Diplomacy is more tricky and less clear since there is a lot of hidden stuff.
8. If you are big, they can be used to pay maintenance for the empire. Some cottages are always useful and cottage spam is a good way to win space race or get early cultural victory or stay at parity with AIs on higher difficulty. Early in the game especially with financial trait they would keep you afloat while you expand. If terrain permits, building a few in the capital is a good idea because they are multiplied with Bureaucracy (unlike specialists which are not multiplied). There are also a number of things written about city specialization and micromanagement of specialized cities. Cottages in research centers is a very good idea. Improvements there (Granary, Library, University, etc) are usually built with chopping or pop- or cash-rushing or by switching to high-hammer tiles while sharing cottages with adjacent cities. Just keep in mind that to grow, cottages have to be worked all the time.
But this game is very complex, there are many things written already and even more things missing. What I'm saying here is all IMHO and a few very general statements not applicable to every situation but to many situations. They help to survive and get familiar with the game at the beginning IMHO.
This is a great discussion and I hope it continues especially for warlord noobs.
The one thing I've had difficulty getting a handle on is the GPs. In C3C it's all about growth but in civ4 it's determining when it's time to turn on the GP farm. Farming and "bread loaves" seem to be the key to this type of specialized city but I can't get a grasp of when to turn them on.
A few things I've learned in MP is using combined arms, cats and proper promotions. Don't discount the underdog early game units, spears and pikes. They are extremely powerful against mounted units.
I'm slowly getting the hang of food and specialists, although I'm still not quite at the point of figuring wether making any GP's anywhere is good. I know it's got to be, but I don't get how it beats working tiles yet. I'll figure that in good time I guess. I also noticed that this thread has nearly more views than my PBEM spoiler already, so I'll go work on that.
One thing I'm really not sure about is how to handle shields. It seems to me that shields are provided by hills and unworked forests - where unworked forests suck as tiles in general.
9- I am guessing that you put up over-specialized cities, 1-2-3 near hills to push military out, 1-2-3 near food to spam cottages and push science out (using specialists for shields and GP's) and the rest will just try and contribute to the economy. Or is this completely wrong and is there a balanced tiles approach to it all? I know it is more complex than that, but still, there's got to be a mindset to start from.
10- I take it massing one type of units is going to be met with huge resistance in the matter of either axemen or pikemen early, and so forth along the tech tree. So besides the mandatory pike and archer for stack protection, can one actually use combined arms efficiently against an opponent that has both metal and horses available? If chariots hard-counter axes and spears hard-counter horse archers, is it feasible to meet at even forces and pull a conquest, or do you have to wait for the time when you have a ressource advantage or a large production lead? Or would catapult collateral take care of it all?
11- Scout to size 2, then settler or worker first? The C3C player in me read an outrageous number of worker first starts around, but since you don't start with one, it is probably very sensible.
12- In light of reading Sulla's intro to C4, do people actually make wonders now that they give GP points?
About forests, - it is a reasonable idea to chop some of them before mathematics and all the rest right after mathematics. They do increase health a little but health can be acquired by capturing health resources. If you need hammers, it is quite possible to build workshops instead of them. With Chemistry, workshops are as good as mines on hills.
9. Sounds about right imho. One city to farm great people in caste system + pacifism + National Epic if you need to (with lots of extra food), a few cities including capital if terrain permits for cottage spam and all the rest to military (unless there are some resources good for research) and minimal maintenance compensation. If it is a peaceful research or culture game, military production better be minimal just to guarantee the required expansion and survival. Of course, there are many exceptions.
10. Archers are pretty useless in the open but rather good for city defence. And as you said, cats in numbers will take care. Against AI, getting to cavalry ages before them is quite possible up to and including emperor level. And with cavalry against longbowmen, catapults are seldom required. May be a few to bring down defences of the cities. But if battling against longbowmen with macemen/knights there better be a few extra catapults to sacrifice to damage the defenders.
11. Worker or workboat first usually. Before this warrior/scout if there is time.
12. Sorry to say that but Sulla's introduction is very well written but very poorly played. Wonders are rather useless in terms of great people points, you can farm much faster and more accurately with great people farm.
I disagree to an extent on worker settler production, emporer and above you often need that second city to grab your copper horses so often i go settler at size 2.
Though it has been suggested recently in a few threads at 'the other site' to settle your first few cities primarily for commerce value, even for war mongerers as it means you can pump the science up and take out the AI quickly and easily when you get a tech lead.
I've had time to experiment a little and come back charging and blazing with new questions.
13 - CIV has a built-in civ assist that does everything well except 2 things: tech trading and city about to grow / has grown, which are the features I would argue (we can always <s>spam</s> make another thread for this argument) were most powerful in CA2 for C3C. Are there any ways to mod this? I went through the mods on the other site and didn't find anything relevant (wayyy too many personnal projects and custom unit graphics and not enough useful content for the actual player).
Bottom line: I have seen good graphical re-works of the F4 pages but can't manage to find them, nor find something that will pop when someone learns a new tech. Any help there?
14 - REX. REX is dead now. That's a given. I played a game yesterday where 0% science gave me -15gpt with the vikings and ate my socks. I have the tendency to try things the hard way to see if they really suck, and well, it sucked. So with that in mind, and with the fact that either way you will put on "avoid growth" at some point to save yourself unhappiness, should you resume expanding your empire when you hit your happy cap? So far I haven't been able to consistently hold off Prince AI's, but I find that with 5-6 good early cities, I can make my way through to the IA quite comfortably at noble. I was wondering if this was handicapping, however, since in the end cities don't experience commerce and production waste. In other words, is the momentarily crotch of new cities' upkeep worth it in the end, for a mid-game conquest, later diplo, or late late ship?
15 - About GP and cottages. I read discussions that both can run your economy. My (in)experience tells me that cottages are simpler and effective, but they burn away a city's potential for shields. GP are tricky in use but you can do them both in high shield cities (mass wonders) and high food places (scientists, engineers and whatnot). However doing GP farming does not give you raw gold. So to use these fweatures fully, do you have to do super-uber city specialisation in the way of GP food, GP wonder, cottage gold - and the unexpendable <s>shield</s> hammer military ?
16 - Lumbermills: worth the wait?
17 - @Whomp: from the height of my Noble-but-wanna-be-big-Now *diaper ad music here* play, GP farming in food places begins when you hit the food cap. If you hit cap and lack specialist slots, change civic or pop-rush more improvements. You probably know that much, and much better, and that much better, but I thought I'd try ;)
Ok, this one is fustrating: what's with the "can't trade" a technology thing? They either will, won't or can't - but how is it that they cannot ??
13) HOF mod latest versions do have most of needed alert features and much more. It is also a standard for GOTM now.
14) A bit of REXing is actually required to beat the higher levels starting from Emperor and it is a good idea to build early 6-8 cities as soon as you can afford that. Build Courthouses and cottages as well as Forbidden Palace. The research rate would be hit severely at some point but with continuing conquest and razing a few cities for cash and strengthening the economy with cottages/improvements (pop-rushed mostly) it is fairly easy plus trading a few techs here and there or extra resources with some AI can contribute to recovery if done right. Do not forget pillaging in the enemy land which you are not planning to conquer in the near future. On lower difficulty levels (Noble and Price) with 6-8 starting cities on large maps (standard size and bigger with low sea or no sea) the easiest way through is to research rapidly to Communism (no distance maintenance) and Military Tradition and go kill everyone with Cavalry for Domination win. If done properly, in some cases you'd be facing only longbowmen up until the end. On Monarch you might see occasional musketmen of even grenadiers but there should be no rifles. Although you'd have to research really fast for that.
Regarding happiness cap. This can be dealt with A) Monarchy (unlimited happiness per unit per city); B) Slavery (whip it); C) Drama (luxury slider); D) Representation (early Pyramids); E) More conquests and more happiness resources. Personally E) is the best way to go usually.
15. GP farming gives raw gold when farming for merchants. If you done with SGOTM3, you can go and read CFR-W SGOTM3 thread, it is not an easy read but a clear example of this issue. Regarding super-specialized cities, I'd say not that clearly good always. Sometimes terrain dictates a more balanced approach and you've got to go for that. Always build more units. There is never enough, the more the better as long as you can afford it.
16. Not worth it. Chop it early as soon as discovering Math. You can build a workshop or cottage or farm there.
17.This one is for Whomp.
quote:Originally posted by Beorn
Ok, this one is fustrating: what's with the "can't trade" a technology thing? They either will, won't or can't - but how is it that they cannot ??
Tech cannot be traded when you acquired knowledge of prerequisites on the same turn. Next turn tech will be possible to trade if AI will want to.
The question as to why AI won't trade techs (colored red in diplo screen) is more complex but there should be a strategy article that covers that somewhere on CFC. Usually, AI won't trade a tech that it has as monopoly. It won't trade if building wonder associated with this tech or if AI considers the tech too important to be traded. Sometimes, AI won't trade a tech because human player is too advanced or just because relationships are not good enough. There are numerical values to all these things in the code.
[cheerl][cheerl][cheerl]
I'd like to thank everyone for my first victory, SS as Napoleon on Prince
[beer1]
Now onto warring [karate]
18 - Is it me or does collateral damage totally obtusely flabberghasterdly own ? And does that make the Cho-ko-nu a very, very, very powerful UU, or is it still too expensive vs maces and swords?
19 - To achieve conquest, does one have to capture and pace himself with city costs not to go bankrupt, or raze his way about, or is conquest a shunned VC on the pacifist playground that is CIV ?
20 - As I understand it, retreat chances are nerfed from their C3C counterparts ... unless you spend your promotions on it, effectively weakening your unit. So is the use for mounties really to max flanking, for raiders to max raid, for cats to max collateral and for the defensive spear and/or archer to max heal?
Your questions are getting harder and harder.
18. Collateral damage is very powerful. Chokonu is a very powerful unit if used in time and properly. But they should not be used to attack cities defended with archers/longbowmen. They can be used but it is usually not a good idea. They are great against melee stacks in the open though.
19. In case on aiming for Conquest it is better to raze everything. Domination is harder to acheive sometimes because you have to bear the maintenance costs. Actually, it is the easiest victory on lower levels (up to Monarch) and usually can be achieved before other conditions, sometimes on Prince or Monarch and epic speed even in the BC ages on standard map size if no Astronomy is needed. With Astronomy on Monarch and up to Immortal it can be done with a good start and a good leader prior to 1500AD if executed properly. There are numerous examples in GOTM/SGOTM spoilers.
20. Flanking/retreat promotions are greatly nerfed down. It might still be important though sometimes but usually is absolutely useless. Other promotions are more complex and depend on the situation. Healing promotions are better be taken by some weaker unit which is supposed to survive the combat in a stack of big guys (scout or explorer or even warrior/chariot). And you need only 1 Medic 3 promotion for a stack. Raiders against AI often times can be indeed promoted to city raiders but archery units and spearmen can have a variety of promotions. For spearmen, advancing in combat level might be good up to Formation and for archers City garrison or Guerilla are rather useful at times depending on actual situation. Of course there are multiple exceptions. Artillery units can be maxed on accuracy/collateral and sometimes trebuchets can be given Raider as well since their collateral is somewhat lower than that of cats and they are substantially more expensive.
21. I tried going for the BCLG patented GP economy strategy. I prioritize food, get a religion and luxuries, pull up specialists, everything is fine. However I find that I have a very hard time keeping up economically when I build up military. The actual income is very low unless you build cottages or have banker specialists. In cities with grassland hills or goldy ressources I feel like employing specialists is somewhat of a waste of good working class people that could be employed in the fields.
I guess the bottom line is: should the second city (or third if the second is bronze-bound) be built wherever a high amount of ressource/cottage raw commerce be found to support the rest of a GP-economy empire while it still waits for GE, GS and GM's to kick it up? And how can you play always war games with these restrictions anyways? I feel like before I have a size 10+ city supporting the empire for gold I am bound to run 0% research with half a dozen scientists specialists, crossing my fingers for the pyramids to help me with doubled research from scientists.
You are obviously doing something wrong. I'm not sure what the problem is but IMO it might be that you start GP-based economy too early and run it all the way through whereas it is not a good idea to base your whole game on it. It might be that you might need to:
1) build more cities (at least 6-8 as early as possible if the economy can handle that at 30-40% research).
2) If you cannot, build yourself more units and go conquer these cities from neighbors.
There is always use of some terrain unless it is all riverless plains without bonus resources. Grasslands can be farmed to work hills or build up great people or cottaged if there are no rivers or hills nearby. Plains can be workshopped or cottaged or farmed in a worst case scenario. Flood plains can be farmed to build up great people or to work nearby hills or they can be cottaged as well.
Great people farming usually is better in caste system with pacifism and national epic. You can then farm 3-4 great scientists in no time in the middle of the game to accelerate your way towards Liberalism or towards Astronomy depending on the map. Great people farming very early in the game is not too useful except may be first great scientist for Academy in the capital or on higher difficulty levels for lightbulbing philosophy to trade yourself even in techs with the AI. Otherwise, it greatly slows down growth. So, early in the game, slavery is usually preferred as you can whip improvements or settlers/workers or units.
Farming for GE makes sense only with philosophical trait and farming for GM makes sense only if you run universal suffrage (built or conquered Pyramids) or need massive instant upgrades. Farming for GP is usually not required. Farming for GA is needed only if going for cultural victory. Otherwise, GS are always better because they give better techs and more beakers towards these techs.
Yeah I started way too early. I also was stuck with the idea that science should be run around 80+%, not at lower percents to support more cities for an equivalent (early) and more potent (later) science total.
I see the obstruction with GA's and GP's, but GE and GM have great usefulness imho. Clearing a wonder build or freeing up your treasury for 100% research should be good enough to consider, no?
Generally (! but not always !) what matters is the total science output of your empire in beakers per turn and not where your science slider is. With a large empire and at war you can run it at 50% but still make way more bpt than with small empire running at 100%. Also, there is no corruption and with larger empire, you can make more units, have more resources (bigger and healthier cities) and thus do not need too many improvements to make that happen in all cities which saves you hammers towards more useful builds. For example, compare banks with grocers. If you have more health, you don't need grocers and can go directly for banks. But granaries are always needed. You would not also need markets or temples since you can get that happiness out of military police warriors. And so on. Building courthouses and Forbidden Palace or moving Palace to a more central location can greatly reduce maintenance. Or you can play Zulu and get cheap -20% maintenance almost instantly in all cities. Or you can research full throttle to State property and again get rid of distance maintenance completely.
Benefit of GM is usually (! not always !) an illusion since you can get more beakers with GS than running 100% science due to maney made with GM. For example, you run 70% science for most of the game and can run 100% science for a few turns (let's assume 10 turns). So you save 30% * 0.25 (assuming you have libraries everywhere and no markets at all) = 37.5% of your total budget. Let's assume also you are playing on monarch level standard size map and have 7-8 cities in early Renaissance. This makes your total income about 400g and you gain roughly 1500 beakers (gold frm GS mission) this way. Usually, you can get up to 2100 beaker towards Education (which is a reasonable tech to research at this time) with a GS and you get the tech earlier because the gain is instant and does not have to be distributed over 10 turns. This makes GS better in many cases (! but not always !).
Farming GE requires early Metal Casting and early forge and even then it is hard to keep the GE pool clear from any contamination with other GP points. For normal speed this requires running an engineer in a city with Great Wall (1 GE ppt) for about 25 turns for total 3 gpp. And you cannot run any other specialists there and cannot build other wonders. Pyramids are better but on higher difficulty are hard to get and require considerable sacrifice in development which might result in tech retardation and cornering by AI in a closed space. General (! not always !) these hammers are better off to be spent towards military and expansion and libraries. Of course, with an industrious leader and with stone and a few worthless forests nearby, Pyramids can be built early and are well rewarding wonder. But normally this kind of situation is extremely rare. Most of wonders apart from Oracle early on and may be Great Library are relatively worthless down to much later in the game usually (! not always !). Sometimes, it is worth rushing Oxford with GE in a scientce-oriented capital with very low hammers. But one can revolt to slavery and whip that Oxford as an option.
So, screwing expansion and growth for a GE or GM is not worth it generally.
admiral kutzov
10-04-2007, 02:20
B, read the threads on SE v. CE. be the uu and the ub... go forth and prosper.
It's so weird not being able to just spam cities and have them all go barracks-swordsmen. I like raider3 cannons a lot though. Still, CIV is not the same, it doesn't run smooth, I can't get my clicks sharp and I won't dig it as much.
Same old topic, new horrid pun, new questions.
So, techs the AI is keen to have avoided are Alphabet, Navigation, Astronomy ... and I can't fill the dots in. Is there a rule of thumb for techs the AI will strive to research? Will the AI actually go for tech beelines (ex: Mil Science) and ignore the fact that he wouldn't want a given tech on the way or do we get the dumb "chemistry is in the way of Mil Trad so I don't bother going for Mil Trad" syndrome?
Another Q: Religious factions are important, but is it possibly worthwhile to get an early built religion and try establishing a cartel? I'd guess it is so on huge maps, but on standard ones? So far, the common sense that was induced in me is: pick a religion according to whose heads you want and whose beds you want.
Last, this time: I'm confident at Monarch now. Does that mean anything for MP games, and does that mean I could stand up to some people in a standard 1v1 match? Not that I'm ready to commit [lol] but it just might come, when my everlasting enthusiasm for C3C finally gets outlasted by the absence of players...
killercane
31-10-2007, 22:28
They seem to avoid Aesthetics in BTS and that opens up Lit and TGL. Statue of Zeus is also a nice wonder and S. Paya religious wonder opens up some nice civics (thus saving research into Philo/Theology) in exchange for 450 hammers (+100% with gold).
Here's a new one:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233901
The guy started doing this stuff on Monarch and moved up notches towards Immortal.
I think the no lightbulb is nice, I tried this strat on very low levels and it seemed to work ok early on although I underdid military (like I always do) (but no, mauer, not in your game I haven't). But no cottages?
I also learned about re-arranging tile improvements as the game goes, cf: the threads showing that flatlands with a straight river gives ludicrous shields and gold with water and wind mills.
Any comments?
Question: what do you guys think of binary science rate? I.E.: to always set your science slider at 0% or 100% so as to nullify the rounding errors (besides specialists).
Is that an overkill micro move? Has it been "fixed" so that science and commerce now accumulate decimal places? Does the use of specialists kill this practice in the first place?
I personally think it works best but half the time i can't be arsed to do it. What with the carry over of beakers though it doesnt make a huge difference.
Yeah, that's the conclusion I was getting to myself, you can't really lose much more than 2-3 beakers per city per turn, which is near-insignificant at one point, and you can't control specialist beakers either.
And hey! While we're here, I just saw something nasty from DaveMcW:
quote:Catapults, Globe Theatre, Hereditary Rule, and Slavery create a powerful combination for someone planning a medieval war.
The basic cycle works like this:
Turn 1: Start building Globe Theatre in a size 3 city.
Turn 2: Start building a Catapult.
Turn 3: Whip the Catapult for 2 pop.
Turn 4: Fortify the Catapult in the city, and go back to step 1.
[u]Result</u>
40 turns
13 Catapults
1 Globe Theatre
Not bad for a size 3 city!
Now you can march your stack out of the city and into battle with no whip unhappiness left behind.
[u]Required Buildings</u>
Granary
Barracks
Theatre (plus 5 more Theatres in other cities)
[u]Ideal Terrain</u>
5f resource
5f resource
3f farm
-or-
5f resource
4f flood plain
4f flood plain
You can get by with less productive terrain, but the cycle will take longer than 3 turns.
[u]Optional Civ Traits</u>
Creative - speeds up the initial Theatres.
Industrious - cuts the time to complete Globe Theatre by 33%, or 45% with Forge. Warning: you must produce exactly one hammer per turn if you want to use the Forge.
[u]Optional Units</u>
If 13 Catapults seem like too much, try mixing in some Swordmen or Axemen.
High food theater also happens to make a good draft location or a specialist galore to support your war economy.
Yeah, you can then do the same with that, then whipping heroic epic in the city so you have an heroic theatre type city, if you have decent terrain you can be whipping/building cavs every other turn.
That news is quite old. ;)
Regarding rounding, they have fixed everything in patch 3.13. Now, there is no need to play with the slider.
And I'm quite new to it [:p]
That's nice to know about 3.13 though, so did they make all the economics retain decimals? How did they do? Is it the same for Sci/Com/Spy and Lux sliders?
Decimals are not kept or rounded iirc, but they are summed up for total figures for the empire. Thus, if you don't play with the slider you lose 0.9 beaker at maximum for the whole empire, not for each of the cities. I think same is for all other sliders. The bonuses are also there for the primary calculations. The bonuses are applied first for each city and then the result is summed and only then decimal discarded iirc. With slider maxed, you might actually lose something similar. For example, in older versions, if you have 7 beakers in a city with library, 7+7*0.25=8.75 which would have been 8 taken for the calculations. Now, this 8.75 goes to be added to total figures which does minimize the loss. So, previously, if you had 3 cities each making 8.75 beakers, you get total of 8*3=24 and now, you get 8.75*3=26.25 rounded to 26 regardless of slider setting.
quote:Originally posted by Beorn
And I'm quite new to it [:p]
There is another issue to consider here. With that kind of food, you can actually let the city grow, build library and market instead with "normal" pop-rushing, get population there increased and instead of quite hopeless cat-crunching little settlement, one can get a nice city especially on the coast with harbor which would bring 10-12 commerce per turn on its own just by existing there. If there are a few hills here and there, you can probably get production there up to make a cat every other turn with only occasional pop-rushing thus making 15 cats or so over the period of 40 turns.
I've had a Shakespeare's in Riga in CDZ World 1 game and actually while at first used pop-rushing with cats overflowing into Great Theater there for quite a while but then made a few calculations and figured out how much gold I've been losing by not allowing the city to grow. [aargh]
killercane
25-01-2008, 22:00
Yep, grow your cities rather than doing this, especially in BTS. If you need a lot of troops, and Globe is available, Nationalism isnt far off, and drafting is where the real moolah is made.
Initiate the one turn growth cycle, draft a mace (70 hammers) or rifle (110!) every turn from Globe city, and put the 4-5 hammers per turn into something else. Any decent HE city can add a knight or cav every other turn with no happiness problems.
Add in the whip and Uni Sufferage, assume 8-10 cities, lots of food and happiness, and you can make 4-5 units per turn empire wide.
but if you'd gone to war then you'd have made up for that with gold and future gold. Which in essence is the idea.
I took way too long to write that post so I'll just link to it and fish for help over at the other site:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6416871#post6416871
I looked at your game. Actually, you are doing quite OK for a peaceful win. But you have some really strong AIs in the game which really got ahead in techs. I'm not sure how that happened. Also you could have apparently tried to kill Augustus earlier. Now he seems to be a bit powerful. Again, I'm not sure how that happened. And you apparently set yourself a goal of building every building allowed in the game. I'm not sure what is the point of banks in every city since they bring you 5-7 coins per turn at the cost of 200 hammers. For example, in Satsuma you need a harbor and not bank IMO. If you build military, that could have been more reasonable investment. But Augustus have Statue and war with him could be quite unpleasant. Also, you still seem to have state religion which does not help you tech trades. The only reason for this appears to be Pacifism you run for Tiwanaku but it is quite late in the game and great people are not that important any longer. Also, you do run Mercantilism and probably this loses you a lot of money since you trade income is awful. And also, you have a lot of unchopped forests which is again quite strange and seldom happens.
All this might be due to a lack of clear game plan in the beginning. You are set up for a cultural or UN win or so it seems but this does not seem to happen. Alas, this is not Civ3 and you cannot usually catch up after getting rather far behind. You can catch up but only by military means by hammering upon the opponents.
Otherwise, again, it looks quite nice, you just have a rather bad map with only a handful of health resources.
Thanks a lot, between this and the other advices from CFC I might be able to win a game eventually ;)
So yeah, the resources had me wish I was Washington for the happy and healthy points.
Civics and religions were indeed poorly chosen, but I was reluctant to change them for some reason - the anarchy didn't sound good enough to me, but it probably would've been.
And I'll specialize!!!!! I remember giving that advice countless times on C3C, and now I'm the one building everything everywhere [doomsol]
The Inca is OK overall but I think you missed the main point which is early kechua rush. So, you did not rush neither Augustus, nor Toku. At least, you could have stolen a worker or two to cripple their early development before they hooked up metal or horses. I'm not sure it is always best thing to do but most of the Inca players do that and quite successfully. May be there were something about the early game which could have been changed. So, being left unchecked, your neighbors grew strong and powerful and even though you managed to vassalize Toku, Augustus grew big. On normal game speed, that is quite a possibility. But you can tell more. There were very little early game info in that CFC thread.
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