Civ4 : kryszcztov v barbu1977 ***SPOILER***

[Socrates]

barbu proposed me a builder game after I got stupidly crushed by akots. So we went for a quick game with some AIs.



Game : krys v barbu
Version : Civ4 1.61
krys : England, Elizabeth
barbu : China, Qin Shi Huang
Number of AIs : 4
Difficulty : Prince
Map : Lakes [slightly edited]
Size : Standard
Climate : Tropical
Sealevel : High
Era : Ancient
Speed : Quick
Options : Always Peace
Victories : Time, Cultural, Space Race, Diplomatic

Map by akots, thanks !



The choice for a leader was restricted to financial ones, for obvious reasons. Since this is Always Peace with no winning on conquest or domination, the best shot is Alpha Centauri. I decided to rely on Lizzy's philosophical skills, where as barbu chose financial and industrious Qin. So the battle will feature barbu's ability to quickly erect wonders and my ability to spawn more great persons for various purposes.

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The starting place : not great, all the more as I'm located far north, but that gold hill is welcome. Not sure about the west and east, so I decided to settle there.

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I went for a worker right away, since settling on a hill gives you 2 food and 2 hammers, and developing the corn grassland later would compensate for the lack of initial growth. Agriculture it is of course.

[Socrates]

The worker strat seems to be paying off. The corn helped me grow very fast to size 6, while the gold hill helped me much to lead in techs. I was a bit adventurous with my warriors, and my 1st one got killed by barbs early, but another one popped up a hut with Writing inside. [thumbsup] This opened up the path to Alphabet, which I happily took. I guess that tech trading will be crucial in this game.

I met Montezuma and Cyrus. Monty is the Buddah, while barbu is the Krishna. The land around me is not that awesome, all the more as coastal tiles (important for Lizzy) aren't close to the capital (except the lake tiles northbound).

At size 6 I started a settler, which was quickly completed, and I sent him to the west to found York.

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I was building a library before size 6, which will be done pretty soon. With the amount of commerce I collect each turn, this is a welcome addition.

Alphabet ready soon too, and after that I'll start to have fun with tech trading.

[Socrates]

I started to trade techs, as neither Monty nor Cyrus even had Writing yet. One of the exploring warriors found one of barbu's warriors in the jungle. At last I could have some comparison ! Well, the game is harder than expected (I thought Writing in a hut had given me a small lead) : barbu already had Alphabet, and was at par in techs, if not slightly ahead (and ahead in GNP). [blush2] And already 3 cities on top of that, while I was currently building the settler for my 3rd city (still to come).

I decided to have a shot at Judaism, so as to not be out of the religious competition once for all.

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Yeah. [goodjob] In the email, barbu told me he had just discovered Monotheism too, so I guess I got it as player1... This also solves the problem of York's borders, as they immediately expanded.

This is where the brain must work hard. No option for war ever, it's all about building, researching, trading...

[Whomp]

Do you know where he's located? Is this a pangea type map?
You lucked out on getting judaism for sure. [:p]

[Socrates]

I don't know where he is yet. It's a slightly edited lakes map, as said in the first post. [:p]

The next goal, apart from founding a 3rd city, will be to get the Oracle, but I'm sure barbu will try it too, all the more as he's industrious and already has Priesthood.

[Socrates]

A long overdue update, as many turns were played since last post.

Basically, I now have 5 cities, and am building a settler that will get me a 6th city soon ; I'll post a picture of the land when it is done, as I don't think I'll be founding more cities anytime soon (long distances with so few, new resources to grab). barbu has 7 cities IIRC.

Apart from Hinduism, barbu also got Confucianism, which now is his state religion. It is the dominant religion on the map, but I have a few missionaries on... mission. :D My current target is Mali, which is located just south of me, and which has recently founded cities close to mine. 3 AIs, including Mali, are following barbu's illogical faith instead of mine, and I intend to change that soon. ;)

On the domestic front, there is much to say.

First, I've recently catched barbu back in the GNP area (more or so), after spending too many turns way below. I chose the upper tech branch, discovering Literature, Drama and Music first (apparently, Mansa discovered Music on the same turn as me, but he was ranked 2nd). The only purpose to get to Music was to get the free Great Artist of course, which I got. I'm keeping him for the moment, because the current tech bulb isn't interesting (Theology, already known by some), because I don't need a culture bomb now (now or later, it's the same), and because settling him in a city isn't that great (we're more or so at the point in time where the culture per turn is beginning to be topped by the culture bomb). So I'm waiting for a better tech bulb... or another great person so as to trigger a Golden Age.

Speaking of other great persons :

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This picture was taken 1 turn before Music and its Great Artist, as you can see. Having reached its maximum size, London was able to hire a specialist, and I decided to hire a scientist. Can't remember if I could choose another one back then, but a scientist is what I wanted anyway. :) I used him to found an academy in London, which will allow me to be back in the tech race, all the more as :

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[goodjob] Good day, it worked !! The Great Library in London ! This was the primary reason why I chose Literature in the first place. This picture is from today. I'm now getting 16 GPPs per turn, while letting London grow a bit (it will be able to get more population thanks to the forge in a few turns), and it would even be 22 GPPs per turn if I didn't let London grow (the difference comes from hiring 1 normal scientist or not). Huge !! Since the speed is Quick, this means I'll get my next great person in 6 turns only. And of course he'll be a Great Scientist too. I intend to found several academies in my cities. I'm really making good use of my philosophical trait here. :)

York, my holy city, has also started to hire specialists, but not as much as London, because of a settler production and a later reaching of its maximum size. I'm dedicating that city to the Great Prophet, which isn't difficult for a holy city. Given the current state in London, I think it'll be a little while before York spawns a Great Prophet, but I'm not in a hurry. I want to build the shrine of course, and its effect will be felt when there are enough cities worshipping Judaism. In the meantime, it is my duty to send missionaries, which I have started to do...

What is left to say ? Oh, barbu has just built the Sistine Chapel, which is good for culture. Its effect will be felt if he hires many specialists, so the culture war has started. Recently I started to wonder if pursueing a cultural victory was worth considering, I even had a word about it with barbu, but then I realized it isn't worth going for 100% culture (which I can do with Music) before at least Liberalism is around. Remember : Always Peace means you wouldn't dread being left in a tech hole if the cultural victory is possible. I have also just realized that barbu had built the Parthenon ; this is a bit worrying, as that means that my philosophical trait is weakened in comparison.

Well, so many details to comment on, since there won't be a single war here. The game is very open, and I know barbu is a very good opponent who knows the game. To be continued...

[BCLG100]

from what i can see from the few pictures krys is that you really need to build some workers to work the lands surrounding you- size 11 and London only appears to be working 4 worked tiles.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by BCLG100

from what i can see from the few pictures krys is that you really need to build some workers to work the lands surrounding you- size 11 and London only appears to be working 4 worked tiles.

Interesting remark. Here is what I can tell.

I recently realized that I was making a mistake by harvesting the lake tiles instead of the 2 grassland tiles I cottaged a while back. It only takes 6 turns until they become <s>villages</s> [EDIT : hamlets], at which point they give 2 food and 3 commerce, just like the lake tiles !! Of course they give more a bit thereafter. This was corrected today.

Apart from that, well, what can I do ? The lake tiles have to stay as they are. The 2 power tiles, ie. corn and gold, are harvested each turn. The forests give me many hammers, which isn't a luxury, considering I only have 1 hill near London and I'm not industrious. I say, they were of great help to get the Library, and I still have many things to build in London. If I chop a few of them, I'll be left with so few hammers that I wonder how I could build stuff then. And you can't improve the forests in the early game, hence why so many tiles are not improved. Then, we have those 2 bare grassland tiles, which I'll cottage in the near future. At size 13 (the forge will give me +2 :) and I have a 3-health margin, thanks to the forests), those 2 tiles with cottages will be needed. And finally there are those 2 bare plains in the north-west... not much to do with them at the moment.

I have focused more on production than commerce so far, to the point where I wondered if this was the right thing to do. I think I'm starting to have an edge over barbu in science capability now, which means I can still focus on production, so as to trigger commerce boosters in every city sooner (libraries, courthouses, markets, etc...). And I have to counter barbu's industrious trait as well, so I just need to discover key techs a few turns before him, so as to have enough advance in key wonders.

The plan is to lead in tech, no less. And with techs will come wonders. Enough wonders will devaluate barbu's industrious trait while fueling my philosophical trait. It's probably the key in this game. A few academies, like I said, will help doing that. :)

Oh... I digressed there...

[BCLG100]

well i see at least four tiles with no forests on, regardless, you can use slavery for production if you are worried you may not have enough production in other cities, you could chop them trees cottage the bottom tiles and plant a scientist in your capital and have a v good science city right there, letting other cities take care of space/whatever victory your going for.

with bearo you could be pumping the science out :) just my two cents anyways :)

[Socrates]

Hmmm, whipping... clearly one area I have a hard time mastering in Civ4. But London doesn't have that much food for that, IMVVVHO, with just 1 corn resource. Plus, the city misses happiness more than health, and I think whipping is best in the other case (when you have enough margin in happiness). The 2 bare grassland tiles, I'll make sure to cottage them very soon I promise. ;) But the forest tiles... I don't feel like chopping them, not enough food and hammers in London. The Great Library is giving me 16 GPPs per turn already (100% Great Scientist), plus a welcome bonus in beakers, so I'm not doing bad in science there, thank you. :)

[BCLG100]

Oh i wasnt meaning you were doing bad in science at all, but them forests give you about 14 extra hammers- if you chop them you can effectivly build anything you might need in a science city- its going to be nowhere near fast enough to be a truly effective science city.

also if you irrigate the tile directly east of london, you should get an extra food from the wheet as it now has water to it (least you will when you grab CS) ::) but just to point out you have more than enough food there to whip successfully :)

[Pastorius]

Listen to BCLG, he is the least n00by n00b there is ;)

[BCLG100]

your far more 1337 than m3 9aal

[killercane]

Make sure you get that 6th city, beeline to Education, build unis, and chop your trees in to Oxford! With a cottage on every tile, and 12 pop you dont need no stinkin hammers there.

[Socrates]

With 7 forest tiles around London, I can chop 1 down without losing a health unit, so giving irrigation to the corn tile makes sense, and I will do it, thanks. :) But I wonder how I'll be able to build all there is to build in London by chopping a few forest tiles, I think it's a bit silly to think that (no offense). There is SO MUCH to build, and if you add Oxford University... [eek] BTW, I founded my 6th city, so now this national wonder is possible (well... when I get the right tech).

A few turns have passed, and I took an important decision : to play the hand I was given (well, the hand I chose in the first place ;) ). After discovering Civil Service and Philosophy, and getting Feudalism in trading (all of this in a short timespan), I revolted and changed to Bureaucracy, Serfdom and, more importantly in terms of choice, Pacifism (all of this in 1 turn). [groucho] Basically I abandon the +25% production in my cities so as to get +100% GPPs in them cities (only London at the moment). This means I'm increasing the effects of my philosophical trait while letting barbu increase the effects of his industrious trait (all of this is relative of course). So now London is producing 24 GPPs per turn, which means that "an academy for every city" is a less ambitous program now.

The domestic war still rages on. barbu also is under Bureaucracy, but still with Slavery and Organized Religion. I'm still not above barbu in GNP, though I'm certain to have a clear edge in science : I have now discovered every tech barbu knows and he is 4 techs behind me. Some good trades with the AIs, usually at very attractive prices for them, helped me there. But in the production area, I'm well behind, and my move away from Organized Religion will not help there... A consequence is that I'm struggling with city production : I'm learning new techs too fast, and there isn't enough time to build stuff in the cities !! [eek] Besides, all my empire is under heavy population growth, since I'm far from my limits in most of them. Buildings, wonders, missionaries, or even workers (not sure now, with Serfdom) : it's very tricky to know what's best in the near future.

Whatever that means, Judaism has caught Confucianism in influence (23%). Still no move from the AIs in state religion, but I know I have to spam again... when I have built this courthouse, and that market, and that important wonder... [cry] On the trading front, I'm satisified ; I don't know if I'm doing better than barbu (the last line in demographics gives the same values for me and my best opponent), but I get my shares of resources and money, and I still have a margin. The real downside is that I lack marble, whereas barbu has some (we both have stone).

I'm currently discovering Divine Right. I feel it is too early to get to Education and its cheap unis (philo trait), since I have too many things to build. I'm quite confident in my science capabilities, so I have to hold on a little, in order to grab as much as I can from the different eras. No point in reaching the modern age a few turns before barbu and lacking every wonder, eh ? One wonder sounds appealing : the Minaret. [groucho] And Angkor Wat is still game ; maybe barbu didn't try that one ?

[BCLG100]

THe reason you state for needing them forests is that in civ 4 you simply dont need EVERY building in your city, all you really need in london is a granary, library, university and then chop in oxford. If you get there you can pop in an observatory etc but really all you need is science buildings in there- nothing else is especially needed.

Otherwise the rest of the game looks interesting :)

[Socrates]

A quick update, since the game is flying by these days. :D

I made an important mistake : I kept my Great Artist (from Music, remember), instead of using him to discover Divine Right faster. The impossible has happened : barbu has discovered this tech 1 turn before I did !! And I was so close to it (much less than 1 full turn of research at 100%)... So that's the 4th religion he has founded : Hinduism, Confucianism, Christianity and Islam. Only Confucius prevails though. ;)

This brings me to the 2nd sensible file : wonders. barbu is collecting them, and it starts to get me worried : after the Parthenon and the Sistine Chapel, he recently built both the Colossus and Angkor Wat. [blush2] He was a bit late building this one, according to me, since he had discovered Philosophy for a long time already. He might have started to build it as soon as he saw I got Philosophy too, confident in his industrious trait of course... Anyway, I was almost at 1/3 of Angkor Wat in York, and at least I got some money out of it (102 coins, to be precise). But I have to react soon, I only have the Great Library (even though I wouldn't change this one for all the gold in the world). The Spiral Minaret is in great danger now, as barbu can just rush to it, since it's the only wonder he can build at the moment. I can only start it next turn, when Divine Right is in, and I'll have a shot at it too. With a little luck (and a mistake from his part), I'll be able to grab that one. Maybe 2 forest chops can help me there.

Last file : religions. I'm now trying to have 3 missionaries on mission or in production at any point in time. I will do my best to erect my shrine in time, so it could be worth it. Another nice outcome is that AIs would be very pleased with me, which would secure my deals with them.

[Socrates]

Another update, which will be a bit messy, because the pace is not that regular and with so little action (in the Rambo sense), I'm getting confused between all those pacific events... [mischief]

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I got the Spiral Minaret ! [thumbsup] Apparently barbu didn't put all his resources in this, as opposed to me. On top of the coins I'll get each turn, this will accelerate the Great Prophet points in York, which is facing a very strong competition from London and its Great Scientist points of course.

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I was first to Liberalism. [thumbsup] I picked Nationalism, but didn't start the Taj Mahal. This wonder would later be built by Frederick, which is OK for me.

BTW, a small note to say that I suffered a bit from not having marble anywhere close to my cities, contrary to barbu who had both stone and marble... and the industrious trait. [blush2] This didn't help me.

The competition in science got really fierce, and barbu was slowly able to catch me back. I guess the AIs, getting stronger over time with their numerous cities, helped him there, but me building cottages later also helped him. I was able to secure the Great Merchant from Economics, but lost the Great Scientist from Physics to barbu.

An interesting thing is the Great Merchant unit. I didn't know this was the only unit which can enter an enemy territory with no Open Borders. I assumed it couldn't, and when I saw barbu's Great Merchant, I ended our Open Borders agreement (that I had started in order for my units to get back home). But it didn't work of course, and a few turns later, barbu earned some 700-800 coins from his commercial mission. :( This also helped him to catch me back.

In the meantime, I continued to spawn Great Scientists, which all founded academies in my cities. I'm not far from founding them all (six total). The Great Library stopped its work a few turns ago. No more free scientists in London, but still some Great Scientist points. ;) London instead built Oxford's University as soon as I got my 6 unis.

There's probably much more I could tell, and I surely forget some stuff, but nevermind.

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London's suddenly lowering its Great Scientist points, York was able to complete its first Great Prophet last turn, which immediately erected the Temple of Solomon. At 100% science, the income changed from -51 (picture) to -3. This means I'm quite OK now, for the rest of the game, as I regularly sell techs to the AIs at a very advantaged discount price.

[Socrates]

It's quite difficult to keep track of a no-war game, as the outcome is decided by small details. Anyway, here is a pic of last turn :

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The Space Race is on !! :) Apollo Program built in Hastings.

But let's come back to a few things that have happened since last update...

I've slowly built my #1 position in science, despite being only #2 in GNP, well beaten by Frederick. This is due to my 6 academies, which are all still in activity of course. Trading some techs with the AIs was helpful to stay ahead of barbu.

I quickly decided to get to factories and coal plants. With much less production potential than many of my opponents, including barbu, I was able to become #1 in a few turns, thus accomplishing my industrial revolution before anyone else. barbu is still in the pre-industrial era (no factory), but that's his choice.

The Cultural Race is on ! [groucho] barbu has understood that he can't beat me in the science area, even with more production potential and the industrious trait. So now he's putting all his effort into generating all the culture he can get (as you can see on the latest pic, he is spreading Judaism in his cities). He currently has 2 Elvis waiting for whatever moment to drop a cultural bomb somewhere... From a rough calculation, it seems that victory will be tight, but there are so many factors in Civ4...

barbu was still able to steal Broadway from me ; I was 1 turn before completion, with barbu still ignoring Electricity. He discovered it, and apparently used a Great Engineer he had kept to rush the wonder. I was quite annoyed by this, as my cities really need some happiness and health now. I'm currently on my way to Rock'n Roll and the Eiffel Tower, which should be OK, but I'm building the precious laboratories fist of course.

[barbu1977]

Interesting read.

Nice to see we where so close in many different builds and religion.

Just a note: my decision to go for the cultural win was mainly due to the fact that I did not have any Uranium and there was no way I could get some except from trading. That was too uncertain for me to do.

I deffinetly learned alot in this game. I think I could easely beat the guy who played myself 6 months ago...

[Socrates]

A quick summary of the last events of the game...

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The Eiffel Tower in Canterbury. Easily grabbed.

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Rock'n Roll in York. No problem.

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Here I'm triggering 2 golden ages in a row, using 5 great persons.

barbu got a cultural victory when I got the 1825AD save. Apparently the limit is at 25,000 at quick speed, which I was unsure of. This is weird because I thought everything was going 50% faster, but 50% faster than 50,000 isn't 25,000 (it's 100% faster). Anyway, at the rate barbu's 3rd cultural city grew (around +800 per turn, I guess), there was no way to prevent his victory. I have built the 5 + 3 space things, so I still had to complete the 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 thingies. Had a few techs to go too.


Congrats to barbu for his smart decision. I didn't know it was so easy to generate so much culture in the end, but I couldn't have done so myself, being a bit late in culture in the middle of the game. I put everything in science, and at least there I was king.

Reply to barbu's note : Uranium ? What is that good for in this game ? I had 2 uranium sources, and I didn't even mine them. My slight rant is about not having close access to marble. But I guess it didn't matter that much in the end.

I may not have all the info, but in BTS, I guess it will be even easier to win a cultural victory, compared to a space victory, because the latter one seems enhanced (thus more complicated = longer to trigger ?).

[barbu1977]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov


Reply to barbu's note : Uranium ? What is that good for in this game ? I had 2 uranium sources, and I didn't even mine them. My slight rant is about not having close access to marble. But I guess it didn't matter that much in the end.


I think you need Uralium to build one of theese spaceship part.

I remember checking and thinking I was doomed if I did not have any. Mabe I was wrong.[???]

EDIT: turns out you don't need Uranuim for the spaceship win! Looks like changed my strategy for not mutch. Excepth teh win[blush]