Civ4 : akots v krys ***SPOILER***

[Socrates]

I challenged akots too. :) Here is the no-AI PBEM, take 2.



Game : akots v krys
Version : Civ4 1.61
akots : Rome, Julius Caesar
krys : China, Qin Shi Huang
Number of AIs : 0
Difficulty : Monarch
Map : Archipelago
Size : Tiny
Climate : custom
Sealevel : custom
Era : Ancient
Speed : Normal
Landmass Type : custom
Options : Always War
Victories : all

Map by : Sirian. [eek] Still doesn't happen everyday, but often enough. ;) (Thanks ! [thumbsup] )



akots and I played an interesting PBEM 2 years ago with C3C (see both threads), which featured no AI, and the same, exact landmass : half of the map had been duplicated to the other half. He crushed the hell of me. [crazyeye] This is the revenge : he's going to come after me with his Praetorians, while I'll try to defend and counter-attack with my Cho-ko-nus. Hopefully I'll survive until then... BTW, I chose Qin after a long thought, because I clearly wanted a financial civ (pelago map), and of the financial civs, the Cho-ko-nu seemed like the best UU overall. akots agreed on that, and he chose to be Julius.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2006106223742_pbem_akots_001.jpg
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Bleh, pink versus purple ; did it have to be THAT ugly ? :D The starting place is almost a no-brainer. I moved the warrior 1 tile south-east, which didn't reveal anything exciting, and so I settled right in place.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200610622468_pbem_akots_002.jpg
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After the borders expand, I'll have access to the fish and the gold, and all the water tiles will be coastal tiles (3 gold items for each).

I decided to start a worker immediately instead of growing and building a work boat. I feel that 15 turns for the 1st worker is acceptable after all, and there is no need to get another warrior on this map. I set science on Hunting, because I first want to get Animal Husbandry (sheep) and the Wheel (roads), and I might save some beakers just as well. ;)

[BCLG100]

may sound stupid but will your worker have anything to do when it is built? even when it has done it looks like you wont be getting much done for awhile so i'd still switch to the workboat if i was you, especially seeing as it'll take awhile to paddle round there.

Id also go for sailing quickly as it seems to me that food will be pretty scarce in your capital so you'll end up relying on the food from a lighthouse, also means you can get a galley out searching for akots-find him before he finds you :)

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by BCLG100

may sound stupid but will your worker have anything to do when it is built?

hunting->animal husbandry would allow for a pasture on the sheep. Qin starts with mining, so the gold is also accessible...

[Socrates]

Darkness got it right, I want to build a pasture over the sheep, but I prefer to search Hunting first, so as to get a discount. Mining the gold will probably be the next thing to do.

But BCLG is right too : I shouldn't wait too long before getting the lighthouse, as this building will be key for the civ's development (every water tile in the fat cross at 2 food and 3 gold !). For the moment I'm trying to focus on hammers and food, hence the choice for a worker. I checked the demographics : akots has 1 more hammer than me (and same food and gold), I suppose he has a better starting position. [blush2]

[Kemal]

Perhaps he founded his city on plains/hills. Is this another mirror-battle, with the same lands for both teams?

[BCLG100]

aye i know the hunting--- animal husbandry but what i mean to say would the techs be completed by the time the worker is done? if so its pointless going to mine the gold because it can't be worked by the city (not enough food) and you dont need the happiness bonus for the time being.

If you can work the sheep by the time the worker is completed however its a whole other story :)

edit-really really poor English changed to slightly less but still really bad English :)

[Socrates]

Hey, nice to have some input, thanks guys. [thumbsup]

If it wasn't clear enough, this map is not symetrical this time, we didn't ask such a thing to Sirian. But maybe it is ? [hmm] :D So, no, it's just a pure duel match on a tiny pelago map.

If akots settled on a plain/hill tile, then his settler had to be there already on turn 0, because he founded his city before I got my first save (score : 43). But maybe Sirian gave me a compensation somewhere else...

I checked the timing between worker tasks and worker techs before going this route. Hunting is 5 turns and Animal Husbandry is 11 turns, but the latter will drop a bit after Hunting is known. The worker is 15 turns. So he'll be able to start his pasture when he is built. :) Then, the Wheel is 8 turns or so, and a pasture is completed in 4 turns, so I guess I'll have to get more gold after the worker is built. By this time I'll be able to harvest the fish, swapping 1 hammer for 3 gold. [groucho] Should turn roughly OK.

[Socrates]

I realized that I won't be able to harvest the fish by then, since I first need Fishing. [crazyeye] Oh well, I'll end up mining the gold while waiting for the roads. In the meantime, akots grew his city to size 2, building something else than a worker.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2006108202830_pbem_akots_003.jpg
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My warrior has just finished exploring the island. A second city in the south, and then it's everything but workers and settlers until I decide to settle some other islands. Will need one galley at some point.

[BCLG100]

im thinking the land directly south of your capital to crab the cows and clams would be best. thats probeably obvious though :)

you going to use your industrious trait to grab the colossus?

i think that'd be pretty handy :)

[Socrates]

The game is going well for me... so far. I'm currently leading the game in food, hammers and gold (hammers and gold by far), which is a nice surprise. I have developped the tiles I wanted around my capital, and so I needed to found another city, which I did, once Beijing reached size 6.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20061022234453_pbem_akots_004.jpg
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Shanghai was founded 4 tiles south of my capital, near the copper tile. Borders will have to expand before I can have access to the cows and the crabs, but I have something in mind...

Just discovered Writing (the pic is already 2-3 turns late as I'm typing this (oh no, the save is back again ;) )), and so I have to build a library in my capital soon (the lighthouse will allow even more hammers there). The 3 mines are helping a lot, especially that gold mine (3 hammers and 8 gold !!).

I have one work boat (?) exploring the seas... it was meant to be for Shanghai, but since it isn't needed yet...

One thing is worrying me though : I'm playing akots ! [mischief] He seems to be stucked with one city at size 4 (probably building a settler at the moment), and I can't see what he has done. There is one scenario I dread : he risked a rush gambit with a few warriors/archers/galleys. This has some little chance to strike me, and since this is akots I'm playing, I should soon build galleys to explore/defend. Let's hope...

[BCLG100]

well you need to get some galleys out anyways to start settling around you :)

have you thought about the colossus maybe?

[Socrates]

BCLG, the Colossus sure is a nice piece of art, but it's a bit too early to think of it. Will consider this later...

So I had something in mind for Shanghai's borders, it was called Buddhism. :) I first thought that akots and I would grab every tech leading to worker techs, plus Writing maybe, plus techs towards our UUs (Iron Working, etc...). But I quickly found out that I could delay the later ones a bit and try to expand my capital, currently at size 6 (by both happiness and healthiness limits). So I went for the religious techs, quite cheap ones actually. I tried to get Buddhism first, and thought I would grab it, as well as the 2 other religions, since I was clearly leading in GNP. Booh, akots beat me to Buddhism, much to my dismay, by 2 turns (on a 3-turn research timespan). [blush2] I immediately switched to Hinduism, and a few turns later...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2006102517353_pbem_akots_005.jpg
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Oh my Krishna, I got it ! [goodjob] As expected (not sure why, but it seems to always be that way), Shanghai became the holy city. Just when the worker had run out of stuff to do !

So I'll soon hook those cows and crabs, and if I set up a state religion, my cities will be able to grow more, but I'm not sure if I'll do that.

In the meantime, Beijing got its lighthouse and its library, and is now building a galley. Time to settle those neighbouring islands, I suppose. With my copper online and a rax in Beijing, I don't fear an early rush anymore. :D I'll now try to get Judaism as well.

[Rik Meleet]

IIRC the holy city goes to a low culture city. Beijing has lots from the palace - Shanghai has few.

[BCLG100]

its never too early to plan game changing wonders krys :)

theres some formula for where the holy city goes but i dont understand it/want to understand it/have it :)

[Socrates]

Things are evolving quickly in this game ! A few turns later, akots discovered me.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20061027161133_pbem_akots_006.jpg
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This event was written before the game started : I knew he would find me first, it's always the same with me. Not sure if there is a unit on the galley, I supposed there was none, judging by the fact there is only one unit displayed there (the galley).

This is an Always War game, so I declared war on him (that's what it said when I opened the save). Not sure if we're on an equal ground there... I hope I won't have a penalty in the future.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20061027161448_pbem_akots_007.jpg
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Speaking of the future, I grabbed Judaism on the following turn ! [cool] Shanghai became a double holy city.

It's now settling time again : I have a galley with a settler on board in the north... More on that later... :D

[Socrates]

All of this is very pretty, don't you think ? Well that's just exactly what it is : pretty.

akots's galley stayed there a bit before disappearing in the west. I refrained from using a workboat for crabs in the south, because I feared he could destroy it. I had a settler in my pocket, so :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2006103015182_pbem_akots_008.jpg
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I founded a city on the northern island : Guangzhou, near a 2nd source of copper.

As you can see in this pic, a galley was now in my east. Some in my people thought this was the same galley as a few turns before, and that it had moved around the empire to get there. I told them that it was impossible to sail around an island in a matter of 100 years (how stupid is that ?). ;) Some even claimed that the Earth was actually round and that this was another galley which had chosen the other way towards here. I told them this was bollocks, what d'ya mean, round ??

I was ready to defend my fishing net (well, to attack akots's galley if it came there during his turn), but on the following turn, I saw that my fishing net was destroyed... and I got a message that akots had circumnavigated around the globe, as some of my people thought. OK, I'm playing on a pelago map, and I have totally forgotten about this. [crazyeye] So, now, akots's galleys basically move 50% faster than mine ! [thumbsup]

On the domestic front, everything was quite OK, except that I had to use the exploring workboat for the fish again, once akots was gone. Building, building... and then I started to build a 2nd galley to defend myself against those pesky Roman galleys, which would surely come back with units. The deal was to protect me with a line of galleys and sink everything in sight.

I had 2 galleys running and was training my 1st archer when akots showed up with one galley and one axeman along. Sufficient to mess things up at that point, since my galleys were in the north and the east, whereas akots was in the west, and I only had 1 warrior in each city... I got an archer in my capital at the end of my turn, hoping the battle would take place there, but...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20061030151731_pbem_akots_009.jpg
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Alas, he chose the other city, my double holy city, with only 1 warrior inside. [blush2] Furthermore he was able to attack the unit directly and burn the city to the ground. :(

At that point, it was too late : all those building efforts for nothing, and he would surely come back with more units very, very soon. In despair, I attacked his galley (some 31% chance to win), and sank it ! But nonetheless, this is too late now, it can only be a hard uphill battle, and the heart isn't there anymore.

This was just what it was : pretty. [cry]



Congratulations to akots ! And last but not least : I don't know if he told about it in his spoiler (will read it now), but akots told me that he didn't have decent tiles to found a 2nd city on his starting island, and didn't have a gold-like resource there. I think it's another very good reason to stop things here : I suck and you won. :)

[akots]

OK, whatever you say here. :)

Thanks for the game, man. But still I don't get it. You've had copper and a plenty of time to build an axeman. I just don't get it.[confused]

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by akots

Thanks for the game, man. But still I don't get it. You've had copper and a plenty of time to build an axeman. I just don't get it.[confused]

Why should I build axemen when I'm alone on my island ? [???]

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
Why should I build axemen when I'm alone on my island ? [???]


I think my signature covers it pretty well. ;)

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by akots

I think my signature covers it pretty well. ;)

Care to translate ? I stopped learning Latin when I was 13 yo. [tongue]

And I think I should do something about my PBEMing, I can't continue to play like that ; it's annoying for both myself and my opponent.

[barbu1977]

quote:Originally posted by akots

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
Why should I build axemen when I'm alone on my island ? [???]


I think my signature covers it pretty well. ;)

[lol]

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
...
And I think I should do something about my PBEMing, I can't continue to play like that ; it's annoying for both myself and my opponent.


Come on man, I was just teasing and joking, please, spare your wrath this time. You know very well that if your plan would have succeeded, I would have been in deep trouble in this game.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by akots

Come on man, I was just teasing and joking, please, spare your wrath this time. You know very well that if your plan would have succeeded, I would have been in deep trouble in this game.

I know it can never succeed because I can never have the time required to complete the "plan" (?), especially against a very aggressive player like you. And I'm mainly speaking to myself here, not referring to your joke (?). And this game : you had a clear handicap, so let's forget what would have happened if my plan had succeeded.

[BCLG100]

its not bad play krys its just that you were way too much of a builder in this game-against the AI that plan would have worked wonders but you just have to remember that against the better human players you always have to be thinking militarily :)

[Tubby Rower]

pardon my stupidity... but after reading this a couple of times.. I'm still unclear what the handicap was...

[BCLG100]

akots handicap was no gold and could only get one decent city on his island.

[Tubby Rower]

ah

[Socrates]

BCLG, I'm playing this way in all my PBEMs and I'm starting to get annoyed with it, and no, it doesn't always work wonders against the AI : I've resigned in the 2 RBCiv games I played recently, although that may not be entirely due to my builder style.

[barbu1977]

Krys, want to play a builder game?

I'm also the builder type. First to get to space ship. Couple of AI. Canot declare war, and must settle for peace if the AI asks for it.

[Socrates]

Hey, I forgot we had so many options at hand in Civ4, thanks. :) Why not barbu, but maybe I should try to learn human-human warfare and stuff too, not ? But then again, if you like builder games, I'm sure we can set up a nice PBEM for that, plus I can't refuse an invitation from a Quebequian cousin !! :) Deal. But we'll need a map, and I'm not sure anyone here is ready to do some, maybe I'm wrong, but the very specificity of CDZ seems to be gone. [blush2] Or is any map script good enough ? (once again, I'm asking)

[Rik Meleet]

"always peace" tagged ?

[akots]

I can try to make a map once I'm done with the Civs/Civs game which would happen probably over the weekend.

[BCLG100]

krys theres not much i can say then except build more units! just remember that wonders aint the be all and end all.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

quote:Originally posted by akots

Thanks for the game, man. But still I don't get it. You've had copper and a plenty of time to build an axeman. I just don't get it.[confused]

Why should I build axemen when I'm alone on my island ? [???]


The "Always War" phrase does kind of suggest that it might be better to have a decent sized miltary....

[barbu1977]

That would be nice Akots. I think as long as we get equal starts we should be able to manage.
Also if we are only allowed to get missing ressources from trade, I you should make sure that there is at least +2 or +3 of everything.

Krys, If you don't mind, I think we should play this game at Quick speed.

[akots]

OK, I'm apparently done with the Civs-Civs game and take take your map request. If you can summarize the stuff you want and post it in MapMaking forum, please then. I'll do it ASAP, probably even on Sunday.