Team CDZ Turnplay Thread

[grahamiam]

The opening post to the game from over @ CFC

Thread -> Team C D Z (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170297)

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 1 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170295) for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

This first SGOTM will not feature any advanced variant.. the winner simply will be the team that wins the game at the earliest game date with either domination or a diplomatic victory. All victory conditions are still enabled though, with exception of Space Race, so you have to avoid getting another type of victory (and of course prevent the AIs from winning).

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of May 12.

Here's the start position.

<center>http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM01_start.jpg</center>

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Hapshepsut of Egypt
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Mystery
Game Speed - Epic

Permanent Alliances are turned on (can form permanent alliances after either communism or fascism is researched)
Space race is disabled.
Egypt is locked into war with Huayna Capac of the Incas.
Egypt is locked into peace with an unknown civilization.

The map is hand built, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439)

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization4 v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award - the Gold Laurels.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by either domination or diplomacy.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Good luck to your team, and remember rule #1: Enjoy your game :D

[grahamiam]

Additional posts regarding 1st turns discussed @ CFC:

[Post 2]
Author : grahamiam
Date : May 08, 2006 02:47 PM

checking in :wavey:

looks like the 1st decisions are as follows:
a. settler stay or move (perhaps 1st turnplayer should move the warrior and post a screenie)
b. 1st tech to research
c. 1st build (warrior or worker)

general strategy: do we want to find the Inca? We certainly want to meet the others and find our buddy. Do we want our buddy to have the same religon? If so, perhaps we let him found the religon (AI's like to do that) and then just adopt his.

Our starting techs are Agr and Wheel, both of which lead to pottery. We can also go for Animal Husbandry (for Horses & Pastures) but I think Pottery would be good, especially if our 1st build is a worker.

Hep is Spiritual and Creative, so our cities will get +2cpt, which makes barb clearing very easy.

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[Post 3]
Author : barbu1977
Date : May 08, 2006 04:08 PM

Also checking in.

If we move the worker east we have access to both rivers, making commerce between our cities a piece of cake.

For the first build, I'd suggest a warrior, and we buld a worker when we hit size 2.

For the science, well, I'm not to good in that department.

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[Post 4]
Author : grahamiam
Date : May 08, 2006 04:44 PM

well, I'd prefer moving the settler S for the following reasons:
1. gets us the cow more quickly (1st expansion, gives health and hammers)
2. gets us some forests for extra production as well as offsets health problems due to the flood plains

linking the other river will only take 3 turns so I don't really see the advantage. also, by moving E we replace the grass hill (1f, 1h) with a desert hill (1h, 1g), which seems to be a wash.

Another possible starting position is on the plains hill. I think, since we seem so hammer deprived, that mining it will be better than settling on it, but I'm not really sure. If we do want to settle on it, I would propose moving the warrior 1T N to see if anything up there is interesting. Then move the settler 1T S to get a looksy, then W to the hill.

anyone know the production multiplier for epic vs standard? curious what the time tradoff will be if we wait till pop 2 for the worker.

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[Post 5]
Author : bed_head7
Date : May 09, 2006 01:19 AM

I agree on moving south. We want the cow, though it looks as though we will probably lose one bonus health from only having three forests instead of four. I don't think the plains hill is such a good idea. We will definitely want that mined. We will probably want to wait until size two on building a worker. I have never really seen a start where it was worth building a settler while only size one.

Also, I have finals coming up, but will be done by Sunday, so I may or may not be active in initial planning.

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[Post 6]
Author : socralynnek
Date : May 09, 2006 08:09 AM

Settling SW could be nice.
If our warrior would just be a little closer...

It might be, that I can't play before next tuesday evening, but I am not the right person to play at first anyway...

Maybe we want to found a religion. Still we want to make sure we have the same religion than our buddy, but I guess both is possible if we can get him to send a missionary if he has adifferent one.

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[Post 7]
Author : grahamiam
Date : May 09, 2006 08:16 AM

. We will probably want to wait until size two on building a worker. I have never really seen a start where it was worth building a settler while only size one.

I agree on not building a settler at size 1, but building a worker 1st is certainly viable in single player games. we will have an excess of 3fpt + 1hpt if we settle S. At size 2, we will have excess 4fpt + 1hpt (assumes we work flood plains for the extra gold), which probably doesn't cut down the build time that much.

Settling SW gets us a desert in our starting cross and eliminates at least 2 forests. imho, I'd prefer S or E over SW.

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[Post 8]
Author : socralynnek
Date : May 09, 2006 08:43 AM

Hmmm.... settling S, then cottaging all Floodplains (a GP city can be somewhere else), combined with our capital being a holy city... I see a lot of cash (or research) coming from that city...

Or irrigating some floodplains and then have a lot of specialists...

Anyway if we settle S, we will probably not have that many hammers, but three hills is ok.

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[Post 9]
Author : AlanH
Date : May 09, 2006 08:49 AM

HI

Beam has posted in the sign-up thread asking to join CDZ. Do you want a seventh player, and are you aware of his interest?

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[Post 10]
Author : grahamiam
Date : May 09, 2006 09:15 AM

yes alan, he's part of the team :)

[grahamiam]

Exchange @ CDZ regarding the starting postion:

quote:Originally posted by Samson

So do we discus 1st turn moves etc. here? Anyone fancy the plains hill?


quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

That'd give us the cow, which is a must. Plus the river. What's the grey stuff two tiles left from the lake?


quote:Originally posted by Beam
The cow indeed is a must so imo the settler should move. But with this much food we might consider settling on one of the floodplains so the hills can be developed later for hammers.


quote:Originally posted by Samson

I am a bit worried by health issues if we do not move west. The plains hill will give us 6 flood plains, which is 2 (?) unhealthiness. 1 south would give us 10 (3 or 4?) with could be a problem early game.

The extra hammer from the start is nice too. I think we will get at least 2 hills (visable grassland and the one below it).

Going west would also give us more space for a city this side of the mountains, eg. the desert hill.


quote:Originally posted by Beam

@Samson, that's true about the unhealthy floodplains. According to the civilipedia it is 0.40 per fp so 6 fp would make that 2.4 and 10 fp 4 unhealthiness. Which is a strong plea for the hill SW.

[grahamiam]

So, we seem to be of 4 minds on the settler move.

Options are as follows:
S to the FP (high unhealthiness of -4, gets +2 for river)
SW to the hill (unhealthiness of -2.4, get extra hammer in CC, gets +2 for river) (not sure of the rounding, up or down, that CIV will do)
E to the FP (high unhealthiness of -4.4, gets +2 for river)
W to grass forest (unhealthiness of 2, gets +2 for river)

W and SW loses a turn, but that's not a big deal. I agree with Samson that W allows for a city to the E, perhaps on the desert, but we lose the cow from the city radius. That's a 4f, 2h, 1g tile once developed. Hopefully, if we go W, there's enough room to the S that we can settle nearby (perhaps on the river or forest-river in the fog).

Seems to me, weighing all the details and future city sites, that W is the best for our long term developement. SW gives us a nice production boost if we go worker 1st, plus gives us the cows in the capitol radius, so it would be my 2nd pick.

[Shabbaman]

Well...

Actually, we don't really need to cow in our starting grid, because we already got a lot of food with the floodplains. We could "save" them for a later city. There's no need to grab it quickly, because it'll soon be in our cultural borders. We do need production in our capital, so perhaps the forest is best to settle on first after all.

Still, my first move would've been settling on the SW hill, without giving it much thought.

[Beam]

Nice summary gram! One more factor to consider are the Inca with us locked in war. They have an awesome UU for the early game!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200651114739_quechua.jpg
10.98KB

Cheap and gives shit about archers. Imho locating Inca and a defense bonus in the cap can be very helpful.

I'd favor either W or SW settling, slight pref for SW because of the defenses bonus (?), the cows and the view.

[grahamiam]

easy answer to the quecha are axes ;)

[Shabbaman]

Ah, the view... [worship]

The defensive bonus might be nice, but we better not let them that close to our capital. 1 question: if we settle on the forest, do we get the hammers or not?

[Darkness]

Lurkers comment: I'd settle SW (on the hill) if I were you. You'll be using a lot of floodplains at the beginning of the game, so your production will be very low. Settling on the hill will give you an extra hammer in the city-tile, doubling your production for at least the first 7 (and quite likely the first 15-20) turns. That way you can quickly get some quecha's out much faster for exploration and MP. And you'll bring the cows into the 21 by moving SW.

[Shabbaman]

I don't see us churning out quecha's any time soon ;)

[socralynnek]

As it was my proposal, I still prefer SW, too. I'd like to have the cow in the Fat Cross, we can't get that hammer from a floodplain.
We could move the settler on top of the hill and then see what we have to the west. That one lost turn won't be that hurting.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

I don't see us churning out quecha's any time soon ;)


Warriors then... [crazyeye]

[bed_head7]

Well, hill SW works for me.

[Samson]

If we settle on the forest we do not get the hammers. It is quite a loss to not be able to chop that forest, we are not going to have loads.

I really reakon settle on the hill.

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Samson

If we settle on the forest we do not get the hammers.


Thanks, that settles it for me. Settle on the hill SW.

[grahamiam]

ok, looks like we're going SW. How about we work out a roster? bedhead, barbu, and I are in North America, while the rest are in Europe, so we can alternate between the 2 to keep us moving. Also, Samson mentioned in the sign-up thread that he may go missing soon, so best to get his turns in now ;) I'd suggest the following:

Samson
bedhead
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

[Beam]

All fine with me. How about the first production items and the first moves of the warrior?

Worker, chop 2nd worker, chop settler seem to be some sort of standard but may leave the cap vulnerable for the Inca to long.

For the warrior we might move the settler SW first and use the extra info to determine where to send the warrior.

Animal stuff is tempting as first tech but I am a bit undecided because if we follow the 2worker &gt; settler sequence the cows won't be worked for a while.

My 2 cents.

[grahamiam]

at Monarch, I'd prefer worker, warrior, warrior, settler(chopped). but then again, I'm a pussy.

starting tech i'd like to go for pottery to get us an early cottage or 2, then turn around and go mining -&gt; BW (need BW to chop anything), then back to AH?

[Shabbaman]

What can we expect from the AI? Is this an edited game where they might start with a extra warrior?

[barbu1977]

From the setting of the game (Monarch) I think it's a safe to say that the AI will not start with anything more than normal Monarch game (2 warriors and Archery, I think)

[socralynnek]

Cottaging the floodplains is nice, so we should go in direction of Pottery soon.

I'd also like to build protection as we don't know how far away Inca is. In a normal game, I don't think an AI would attack early, but we are in a locked war.
I'd like to get a religion as well, but that could be a later one like Taoism or Confucianism. But an early one iwth our capital as a holy city could be tempting as well.

My build order: worker, warrior, chop worker, warrior, chop settler (if forest available)

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
Also, Samson mentioned in the sign-up thread that he may go missing soon, so best to get his turns in now ;) I'd suggest the following:

I just said that 'cos work can go in cycles, and sometimes I am too busy to play. There is not a time like that comeing AFAIK, so I would expect to be fine this month.

What are we doing, 20 turns for the first player and then 10?

[EDIT] I normally would go for bronze working 1st, but with both prerquasites for pottery and those lovely flood plains I guess we have to go pottery first.

[Shabbaman]

Agreed.

[grahamiam]

quote:Originally posted by Samson

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
Also, Samson mentioned in the sign-up thread that he may go missing soon, so best to get his turns in now ;) I'd suggest the following:

I just said that 'cos work can go in cycles, and sometimes I am too busy to play. There is not a time like that comeing AFAIK, so I would expect to be fine this month.

What are we doing, 20 turns for the first player and then 10?

[EDIT] I normally would go for bronze working 1st, but with both prerquasites for pottery and those lovely flood plains I guess we have to go pottery first.


[alien] excellent, glad you'll be around :)

20/10 as standard SG turns should be fine but, being epic, I'm also open for going 30/15 the 1st time thru the roster, and then 10 turns/player thereafter if that seems better.

[Shabbaman]

So, are we starting soon?

[Samson]

And are we using the roster above? I do not think there is any need for the first turn to be more than 20 turns.

If we have decided to go with settling SW, the only other decision is what to do with the warior. I cannot se it giving any info on settling, so I would move the settler first then if there is nothing to see (enemy borders or huts I guess) then go NE (to get a view of the coastline) then keep going NW.

[Samson]

Got it. Moved settler, see piccy.

Edit, better piccy after 1 turn. Nice location for capital.

Worker 18 turns away (my turn 19), potery 14 turns. The worker will start a cottage. I would start mining after pottery, any other option?

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/200651216433_Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
121.51KB

[Samson]

I have left it at the begining of turn 641 (I think this is my 20th turn). There are 2 critical decisions to make this turn.

What to work with worker. It has to be a cottage on a flood plains, but which tile. I think we shall be chopping in 15 / 20 turns (at the moment we are 6 turns from mining and 25 from that to bronze working, but that will go down). I was thinking 2 cottages and 1 mine then chop, but I have not done the maths.

Where to move. We met Cathrine (Russia) in the IBT, and her scout is between our wariour and a lion. I do not even know the turn order between the AI and barbs, but I guess the AI moves first. We could move to a hill next to the lion (W) or the hill to the south, 2 tiles from the lion. S is move likely to lose us 1 tun of movement but gives the lion a chance to attack cathrine if it moves first but I do not think it does.

We are 11 turns from growth and 11 turns from a wariour.

Save is at http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC3430_01.Civ4SavedGame

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/200651217252_Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG
128.38KB
I gave up on uploading the other 2. They are at
www.geocities.com/hughmorgan72/Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
www.geocities.com/hughmorgan72/Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

[Shabbaman]

It doesn't matter that much what floodplains we build cottages on? I'd say this side of the river, then we don't get a movement penalty in the case we need to defend them.

[Beam]

I tried to dl the sav and have a look but instead got this:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006512213228_prrotected.jpg
17.14KB

[rant]

What is wrong / am I doing wrong here? It happens both thru the link here and the link on the gotm site.

[barbu1977]

do you have 1.61 instaled

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by barbu1977

do you have 1.61 instaled


Sure I have dude.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006512215358_version161.jpg
33.72KB

I guess it has something to do with this "only the team can use its own save" stuff.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Beam



I guess it has something to do with this "only the team can use its own save" stuff.


No, it's not. I'm not on any team and I can load saves just fine...

Beam, are you running any mods?
IIRC I've seen this before and that had something to do with mods...

[Beam]

@darkness: that must be the WW1 mod...................... wtf

[Gyathaar]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

@darkness: that must be the WW1 mod...................... wtf

Mods (with exception of civscale) or customassets will not cause this problems..
Only changed or added files in assets folder
See my reply on CFC thread

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

@darkness: that must be the WW1 mod...................... wtf


Unfortunately I am not aware of any way around this problem.
The only way to fix this (AFAIK) is to uninstall civ4 and then manually remove the Civ4 folder from your "my games" folder (very important!) and then reinstalling and patching the game.
Then you should be able to load the SGOTM save, but then you can't play the mod... :(

[Gyathaar]

quote:Originally posted by Darkness

quote:Originally posted by Beam

@darkness: that must be the WW1 mod...................... wtf


Unfortunately I am not aware of any way around this problem.
The only way to fix this (AFAIK) is to uninstall civ4 and then manually remove the Civ4 folder from your "my games" folder (very important!) and then reinstalling and patching the game.
Then you should be able to load the SGOTM save, but then you can't play the mod... :(

Dont.. removing anything in my games, customassets or mods will not fix this.. this message can only be caused by changed data in the assets folder in the base civilization4 dir .. nothing else can cause it

[Beam]

Gyathaar may be right. On my quest for the solution to fully controlled mapmaking I've been using an XML editor to look under the cIV bonnet and at least 1 file has a lastchange date of 9-5 although I'm not aware I changed anything.

Nevertheless the good news is that cIV seems to be well protected against xml changes, the bad news that that a) I have to reinstall the whole thing and b) modding has its own undocumented set of black magic rules.

[Gyathaar]

Yes, if you want to mod, you really want to first copy the file into customassets or a mod dir before you change anything

[Beam]

Gyathaar, that solved the problem (reinstall). Thanks for the helpfull and quick response! [goodjob]

[Beam]

Loading the sav makes things on the map clearer.
- E is a blocking mountain range.
- The N sector is a pen with silver at the tip (the only visible lux :( )
- S is safe but there might be landbridges SE and SW
- Land continues to the Wild West.

The issue imo is where to sent the warrior:
- Further W to explore and locate the Inca and/or Cathies roots.
- Explore the SW sector of our capitol to see if it is safe.

My pref would be to explore the cap surroundings first. If it is save (no landbridges) we can risk a bit more on early expansion instead of prepping for Inca attack. And let Cathies scout take the heat of the Lion, we might get a prom out of it.

For the first cottage the fp E of the cap is the best imo as it is well within our borders.

[socralynnek]

So, let's talk about the game again.
After the next expansion, no ne without an open border agreement can get to the other side, that's nice.

Seems settling on the hills was a good decision.

I second cottaging FP on our side of the river first.

[bed_head7]

I know I was slated for second, but if I could get bumped back that would be nice. I have a final tomorrow evening, and then spending time with my mother on Mother's Day, so I won't have a chance to play until Monday.

[grahamiam]

ok, since Beam is fixed and bedhead has a final, let's just swap for this round:

Samson -&gt; just played
bedhead -&gt; on deck (swapped)
Beam -&gt; UP
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

I'm fine with Beams thinking on scouting the starting area more with the warrior. Let's remember that we started with AGR, so that rice can be farmed now if we want it to be (it'll help with the worker/settler builds)

[Beam]

Played until 3100BC.

Main event was a Lion attacking our Warrior. Result: 1 xp and no loss of hp. :) There is another Lion E of the cap and most likely one W.

We seem to have our own pen so the main threat comes from barbs atm. There is a sugar to the SW.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200651393138_world3100.jpg
96.28KB

Cottage build (takes 8 turns). Worker is now building a farm on the rice.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200651393339_surroundings3100.jpg
202.86KB

Cap is set a max. speed for both BW and next worker. Once BW is in there are 2 workers available to chop a settler. Glad there are health sources available cause the cap already is at 6/4.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20065139368_city3100.jpg
22.11KB

Link to the sav: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC3100_01.Civ4SavedGame

Finally the competition:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20065139436_score3100.jpg
197.79KB

More or less on par, Rat Pack a few points ahead (different tech path???) and VQ a bit more ahead but also more turns played.

[Shabbaman]

Hmpf, an island? I bet we don't have iron or something essential like that... btw, don't we need a second cottage? So Barbu is up next?

[Beam]

Dunno, there are at least to civs on this land so we can battle. The farmed rice gives extra food shaving of turns for the worker and settler. And health if connected by a road.

Barbu is next indeed.

[Shabbaman]

We get health from the forest as well. Perhaps it's better if we don't chop those right away.

[Beam]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006513112620_healthdetails.jpg
14.52 KB

There are five forests * 0,50 giving two health (rounded down). So we can chop one forest without decreasing health at all and chop three with a decrease of one health.

Cow, rice and a gran give another three relatively easy health. Clam and fish a remote two more. So while chopping three forests Thebe can easily grow to size 6 without health issues. By that time I guess happiness is a bigger issue.

[barbu1977]

I'll pass my turn, as I have a packed weekend (and a packed week) ahead of me. I don't think I'll be able to put enough time on this.

[Beam]

In that case [shabba] is up.

Samson -&gt; played
bedhead -&gt; on deck (swapped)
Beam -&gt; played
barbu -&gt; on deck (swapped)
Shabbaman -&gt; UP
grahamiam
socralynnek

[grahamiam]

looks good :) we ought to start thinking about settlers and city locations soon. The barb animals are no big deal, but the archers and axes will be a pita. However, clearing them should be pretty easy with +2cpt per new town. I would suggest N towards beef-o-rama or W towards the other beef (start @ cow, 2T W, 1T S on plains river hill). Both locations will give us a very nice line-of-site, easily eliminating the early barb spam.

[Shabbaman]

OK, will look into it after dinner. Any instructions?

[Beam]

Main thing to check is when the rice is worked and see if it already benefits build of the workah.

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

Hmpf, an island? I bet we don't have iron or something essential like that...


Quoting this for stupidity. Now that I've opened the save I recall we met Russia, so we're not alone. D'oh!
As for the warrior, I'm keeping it close until I see what that lion is doing. We don't want it to eat our worker in the sawa, do we ;) This looks to be a very uneventful set of turns...

[Shabbaman]

3010 b.c. someone beat us to buddhism. Apparently it's our friend the Inca, since he converts to it next turn.
2950 b.c. the sawa is finished, it shaves a turn of the production time of the worker.
2860 b.c. wow, I lost count. I moved the warrior east, it revealed a choke point. The russian scout moved from the north to the SE of our territory, my guess is that it slayed the lion. The worker finished a road on the sawa. I let it build a road because it couldn't do anything else besides building a cottage (which'd be closer to the lion, rawr), and it would waste a turn of movement to get there. Besides, for the following turns there'd be no use for the cottage anyway, since we're using the rice now.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Shabbaman/2006513221946_Civ4ScreenShot2860bc.JPG

The file is here http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC2860_01.Civ4SavedGame

Point up for discussion: we can keep the rice worked, or a tile that produces gold. We'll be chopping soon anyway, but if we work a tile that produces gold, that gold still goes into research (I think).

[Beam]

Having looked at the sav I suggest to keep on working the rice as that gives worker and BW both in 6 while working the 2nd fp gives the worker in 7. Worthwile checking each turn if that changes.

Nice bottlemeck find! Imo it is key to settle W first and found some Burger Kings!

Small but not minor detail: instead of roading the rice you could have moved to the fp and complete a cottage about the time BW is ready, then moving both workers to chop for the settler. It is those small advantages early game that can make a difference later on. Beasts usually stay away from cities, unlike barb warriors, archers and other shit that like a tasty worker [mjammie]

Gram is up!

Samson -&gt; played
bedhead -&gt; on deck (swapped)
Beam -&gt; played
barbu -&gt; on deck (swapped)
Shabbaman -&gt; played
grahamiam -&gt; UP
socralynnek -&gt; on deck

[grahamiam]

beasts won't cross your border, and barbs only spawn in blacked out tiles.

got it. will play and post tonight.

[socralynnek]

Remember that I said I couldn't play until tuesday, so swap me until then.

Roading rice is not that bad as we need to connect it eventually to our cap to get the health bonus.

[grahamiam]

couldn't play tonight, will try again tomorrow. kid's needed baths and such, dad needed drinks and such ;)

[Samson]

Here is my turn report I just posted at CFC;

I endded up as the 1st turn player for CDZ. Being epic my only real responsability was exploring.

We had already decided to settle on the plains hill, and to go for pottery first.

4000 BC. Move settler to hill, warrior NE to get a view of the coast. Fish spotted.
3970 BC. Settle Thebes, start on worker and pottery. Warrior Heads NW (Cannot go further east, no point going all the way south).
3880 BC. Warrior gets to the sea NW of Thebes. Decides to go NE through hils.
3730 BC. Mapped all land to north east. Warrior heads down South West.
Sometime around here get pottery, start on mining.
3430 BC (turn 641). Meet Cathrine at choke point to south west. Finish worker. Hand game over without moving anything.

Piccys;

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/200651217252_Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG
www.geocities.com/hughmorgan72/Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
www.geocities.com/hughmorgan72/Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

[grahamiam]

Preflight check:BW due in 6T, worker due in 6T as well

IBT:borders expand

T1: 2830 BC worker moves N to plains hill. I thought about NE to the grass hill so I could road it and allow easy access to the cow when we need it, but decided that we would probably come back to the plains hill to mine it and this may save a step for the workers.
Warrior SE, sees a panther at the choke.

IBT:panther disappears to the S

T2: 2800 BCroad the plains hill (due in 3T, BW/Worker due in 4T). Warrior N

IBT: Hinduism founded somewhere else

T3: 2770 BCWarrior S, sees panther again.

IBT:Looks like Catherine founding Hinduism as she converts.

T4: 2740 BC nada

IBT:road connects the rice

T6: 2710 BCMove worker W to grass-forest

IBT:BW (revolt) -&gt; AH(14T); worker finishes -&gt; settler (21T)

T7: 2680 BCFind copper over by the choke. Worker in forest begins to chop. New worker moves N to river grass to chop.

IBT:

T8: 2650 BC worker begins chopping

IBT: Catherine settles a town down near the choke.

T9: 2620 BC nada

IBT:

T10: 2590 BC nada. Warrior to the W is moving hill-to-hill to reveal tiles and keep the barbs away. Chops are due in 2T and 3T, respectively. I strongly suggest we settle to the W near the copper. 2T N and 1T E should get us a nice spot on the river/coast + with cows and copper (after 1st expansion). Rax then units for that town, so we can rip into Catherine soon :)

Pics below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/teamCDZ-2590BC.jpg

And da save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC2590_01.Civ4SavedGame

[Shabbaman]

That tile 1 north of where the warrior is looks like a good spot. The copper will be in our territory soon then, I doubt, catherine will be building culture (she's not creative is she?).

[socralynnek]

I think Catherine is Cre+Fin, or not?

But I agree that the spot looks nice. Cathy seems to be 3 tiles away from Copper so I thnk we should be able to get and keep the copper.

[Shabbaman]

Sorry, I mistakenly interpreted the grey box in the bottom left as a cultural border. No more posting for me early in the morning.

[Samson]

So what tech are we going for after AH? I reakon either writing (for a library and CoL) or mystisism (for oricle eventuly).

[Shabbaman]

writing&gt;oracle&gt;code of laws=confucianism [worship]

That's tech, but yanky tech ;) I doubt if we have enough forests to pull that off, and perhaps we're better off overall if we use those forests for axemen (and health!) and bash cathy's head. But... that's how I play and that doesn't result in very high scores. Sublime insights are appreciated.
But for the moment I'd say writing.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

writing&gt;oracle&gt;code of laws=confucianism [worship]

That's tech, but yanky tech ;) I doubt if we have enough forests to pull that off, and perhaps we're better off overall if we use those forests for axemen (and health!) and bash cathy's head. But... that's how I play and that doesn't result in very high scores. Sublime insights are appreciated.
But for the moment I'd say writing.

I generally find that the oricle is easy enough to get even if you have to mostly do it without forests. It is 200 odd hammers for 600 odd beakers, and normally worth it.

RE. City placement (do we need another thread?) I like the city spot near the copper and cows (on the plains hill) but it only gets 1 forest. It would be nice to have our second city with enough forests to chop out (most of) another settler. There is a 2 cow + fish spot to the noth of the capital with 3 forests. It has a 2 tile overlap with the capital, but I would not worry about that.

[Beam]

Just my thoughts on settling on the bottleneck. The numbers don't indicate preference, it is jsut left to right.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006515131322_bottleneck.jpg
123.98 KB

First of all there is enough room for 2 cities imo, tile 4 being a very good location for a 3th or later city.

Tiles 1, 2 and 3 all block the choke point without Open Borders, protecting our land from settling and also give (almost) direct access to copper.

Tile 1 is interesting because it eliminates and otherwise useless desert and also is a transit point for ships. It also has least overlap with 4.

Tile 2 is interesting because it provides direct access to the copper and has one forest in the radius. A bit more overlap with 4.

Tile 3 is less interesting imo because it is further away from the cow and Cathy will cover it sooner than we can. It also has more overlap with 4 and overlap with a potential city SW of Thebes.

My 2 cents about settle locations.

The best near future options indeed are CS slingshot and Axerushing Cathy, I am not sure if we can do both at the same time. A plan could be to prepare the cap for CS slinhshot while the 2nd city starts building Axes and a settler.

Edit: crosspost with Samson

No doubt that location is a very good one, I am a bit worried to lose the copper!

[Samson]

The obvious spot for a city seems to me to be the hill 1 north of the warior. Gets coast, fresh water, copper and a cow. Misses a fair few tiles between capital and that city and means we only get 1 in this space.

I think I like the idea of 2 cities in that corner, so 1 and 4 would be good spots. I am just worried that we will end upwaiting ages for our 3rd city if we put it away from any forests. A settler is 120 hammers on epic? So a size 1 city with a pasture cow takes 120 / 7 = 18 turns. If we were to put our second city by the 3 forest tiles we could get 90 hammers from forest so we are looking at about half that.

To loose the copper Cathy would have to put a city north of her pressent one, or that one must expand its borders twice.

[Shabbaman]

1 looks good, but we can only settle there (and grab the cow) as long as the russian borders haven't expanded, can't we? [???]

If we go for 4 and 1 we grab more tiles, that's good. Personally I'd go for a city closer to the copper than for samson's option of settling north near the cows and chopping a 3rd settler.

btw, the orange blub could be the expanded border of Moscow, couldn't it?. That means it won't expand soon, but we could expect a settler soon...

[socralynnek]

if we really want to make sure to get copper there, we'd have to put a city close to it with our 2nd settler, but you are right samson, we'd have problems getting a 3rd one fast.

I like spot 1, cause of the channel it provides. And it steals cow from Cathy, maybe we can even trade it with her then.

I also vote for CS slingshot with Oracle. And for founding Confucianism.

I can't play until tomorrow in the evening. If anyone of the other swapped players (bedhead, barbu) wants to play first or if we want to start with the first player again, then it's ok for me.

[Beam]

quote:To loose the copper Cathy would have to put a city north of her pressent one, or that one must expand its borders twice.

The first option concerns most. Expansion twice would require 75 turns just on creative culture.

A settler is 150 on epic. Which means 90 from forests and 60 / 7 is about 9-10 turns at best. Building with just a pasture cow would be 150 / 7 = 22 turns. So eliminating the risks means expansion is delayed by about 12 turns plus some movement. I am not experienced enough yet to make a rock-solid judgement here.[blush]

Like Samson suggested it is a good idea imo to have a seperate thread for city placement.

[digger760]

Excuse me ignorance, but what is the CS Slingshot?

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by digger760

Excuse me ignorance, but what is the CS Slingshot?


Essentially completing the Oracle (1 free tech) just after researching Code of Laws. The free tech is Civil Service (hence the name) which allows the Bureaucracy civiv (+50% hammer and commerce in the cap). It also allows spread of irrigation and is one of the requirements for Maceman. Last but not least it is expensive so ideal as a free tech. Compare it with the Phil / Rep slingshot in III. It usually comes with Confusianism from CoL and gp points from the Oracle can be used for a gp to build the Conf. special building.

[Samson]

If people want me to I could play at 5 pm BST today. Let me know.

I will concede that the risk of not getting copper is worth a slow 3rd settler. We can contiue building another in Thebes I guess. We only have 2 improved tiles ATM anyway.

I think the CS slingshot is a bit of a risk at Monarch unless we totally prioritize it, ie. Do not build too many cites, get loads of cottages around most cities, do not go to war. I think we have a reasnoble starting location for that, but I normally play to expand at all costs. I think we could get CoL easily from the oricle.

[grahamiam]

I'm fine with spot 1, but we'll need some units to back it up as we'll be sparking border tension with Cathy.

[Samson]

Do you think we need units immidiatly? I would risk it for a few turns if we want this city with the next settler.

[socralynnek]

I don't think Cathy will attack us immediately, but we have to be careful esp. if we have a different religion a little later.

[grahamiam]

I wouldn't leave it empty. Probably the current warrior in the W can pull MP duty for now.

Maybe build a second warrior in that city while waiting for the cow and copper to be improved before going for another settler there? Cow will give us 4f, 2h, while the copper will give us 2f, 4h, so at size 2, we will have 4 surplus food + <s>6 h</s> 7h, so we can build settlers in 15 turns.

[Samson]

Since noone said play it, and only 3 people have played since I last did, I shall not play in an hour (but I still could if people say play).

[Shabbaman]

You have my seal of approval [goldmedal

[grahamiam]

I'm fine with you picking it up Samson. Is bedhead ready to play next? if so, should we just restart at the top of the order?

[socralynnek]

It's ok for me, if you play samson.
And I have no problem starting at the top again...

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

You have my seal of approval [goldmedal

Oh, OK then. It does not seem like there is much to decide right now, but here are my thoughts;

Production - Settler will finish soon with the forest chops. Pop out a warior to protect the next one then another settler? Use all the forest chops for the settler (with the switching within the turn).
Warior - Keep moving about looking for barbs (have we had barb wariors yet?). Make sure he is in a position to keep the setler safe.
Settler - 1.
Tech - AH MAY be finished at the end of my turns, if so then writing.
Workers - Keep chopping ATM. Send 1 down with the settler to improve either the copper or cows as soon as city founded. If I get a growth while making the warior then improve another tile. The other option would be a road to 1, giving faster movement of the settler and a trade route when it is founded (1 gpt) but I think it is not worth it now.

What tiles to improve - I THINK the grassland copper and the plains hill stone both give 5 hammers + food (power) whereas the cows give 6. So I guess I should improve the cows before the stone or copper. However the cows are further from the forests at Thebes and the copper is the priority for 1. Any thoughts?

[Samson]

Got it. Any thoughts wellcome.

[grahamiam]

I'm fine with another warrior before the next settler. We may have some bogies coming and it'll help. Plus, it'll only take us 6T to grow.

For the workers, you will not be able to improve the stone tile since we don't have Masonry. Grassland is 2f, 0h. Copper grass is 2f, 1h. Mining it gives you 3h, which is where I came up with 2f, 4h. I also agree with sending one of the workers to the W with the settler. Roading to get it there a turn or 2 faster is what I would do, but that's probably not optimal. For the worker near the capitol, moving it 2T to the cow should be fine, and it'll be 2T to get back to a forest, no matter what happens.

[Samson]

Bit of news. A barb warior appeared to the south on the turn the settler is ready. Couple of decisions;

I think the barb will go for cathy if we let him. I think they go for the civ with the highest score. If we put a city at 1 then we will have to kill him. I am sure the settler can get past the barb without him meeting it.
The settler finished with 20 hammers left over, and there is a forest coming this turn. I had planned to leave it on settler this turn and then change to warior to allow it to grow. I could build another warior this turn and then get back on the settler.

Any thoughts? I shall leave the game a few minutes for anyone to reply.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/2006515183255_Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG
149.47KB

[Samson]

2590 - Alls well.

2560 - Warior S, 1 forest done

2530 - Warior SE, not good, leaves loads more fog. Worker N.

2500 - Warior NW, Worker start chop, other worker W. Forest grows NE of 3.

IBT - Welthiest Civs, Cathy 3, Hayua 4, CDZ 7.

2470 - Warior N, Worker start chop.

2440 - Warior S

2410 - Warior N,

2380 - Warior S, forest chopped

2350 - Settler finished. 20 overflow, so started on Settler. Barb warior appears in south. I reakon I can handle it, so move settler + worker towards 1. Forest chopped. Warior moved towards Barb.

2320 - Settler + worker still on route, warior onto forested hill next to barb. Thebes changed to warior. Worker onto last forest.

IBT - Wariour kills barb warior, 1.1 health, 2 exp.

2290 - Settler + worker still on route, warior towards 1. Worker started chop then canceled. This I do every turn so I do not forget to change build to settler.

No screen shot as nothing new to see (just a few less forests).

Save at http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC2290_01.Civ4SavedGame.

[EDIT] Thought I would add some points;

I think a mine on grassland gives fewer hammers than on on a hill. I think a mined grassland copper will only be 3 hammers.
You can mine a stone hill and get loads of hammers. I think it is the same as a quarryed one, but no commerce. Of course it is a waste of worker turns, but ofen worth it if you are not going to be getting masonarry any time soon.

Talking of which, are we going for the pyramids?

[Beam]

Nice play!

I checked copper on grass in another sav and there it gives 2f4h when mined (actually in 4OTM2, Lizzy. Playing this for practising). Hard to form a sound opinion about a Pyr run. If build it is extremely powerful but I have no experience how eager the AI is.

bed-head is up (he posted earlier he can play today), I'm on deck.

I made a seperate city placement thread in this forum btw.

Edit:

The worker is 2/2 xp now, I would normally go for Woodman but I guess this warrior isn't going to see a lot of wood in that desert tile. Go for the 10% strength?

[bed_head7]

I have it. I probably won't play today, so if people have opinions/advice, go for it. I don't see any big questions except for the pyramid thing.

[socralynnek]

Hmm...we have stone, so we could give it a try. Although I would rather like to see an Oracle slingshot. I guess, Oracle and Pyr is unlikely.

If we try and fail we at least get a lot of money for our research.

[Samson]

One thing you need to be sure of is that we do not loose any hammers that have been put into the settler while the warior is finishing. The warior is 11 turns IIRC? That may well be enough to start losing hammers, but I have no idea how it works. Anyone know?

What to build in the new city? I would vote for settler.

Which tile to improve around Thebes? I guess it has to be the cows.

What to name the new city? No naming strategy has been sugested so far, and I guess it should not be too profane as we must post at CFC.

The pyramids with stone takes 50% more hammers than the oracle without marble. The AI normally gets it long after the oracle, so it is probably less risky. I would guess the winning team will get both, but perhaps the hammers would be better put into an army. I do not know.

[grahamiam]

well, we've already chopped 3 forests for settlers. We have 2 more immediate forests and then we get diminishing returns from the rest. That is, if we decide to build it in the capitol. I guess we could try for the oracle in the Northern town of BurgerKing (or whatever Beam nicknamed it). It could have a 3 forests for chopping both the Oracle and the Pyramids and since it's going to be a GP town, it'll fit nicely with what it's doing.

[Beam]

Still no bed_head. Shall I play tomorrow if he hasn't and put him on deck as next player?

[bed_head7]

I posted my "got it" three above yours. Should be able to finish tonight. Will at least be starting soon.

[bed_head7]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC1990_01.Civ4SavedGame

2290 BC (0) - No changes or anything to make pre-turn.

IT - Animal Husbandry learned. Since we are discussing pyramids, go for masonry.

2260 BC (1) - Settle Memphis on the desert west of the copper. Begin a settler.

2020 BC (9) - Warrior finishes, start the settler (no hammers were lost towards the settler).

And that was it, save for some worker moves. I started roading the cow, by accident, as I forgot it would already be hooked up via the river (cost of my not having played much). I took a screenshot, but then accidentally copied text over it. Sorry. Anyway, there is a barb just outside of Thebes' borders, and the warrior we just built is in the tile next to it, in the forest.

[Shabbaman]

I thought we were going with writing?

[Samson]

Samson
bedhead -&gt; just played
Beam -&gt; UP
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

I would much rather have writing than masonary, but we only have 3 turns left on it so I guess we have to finish it.

Any big questions? Next tech could be writing, or it could be fishing so we can use the clams and the fish at burger king. No great urgency though I guess.

[EDIT] I thought I had better say that it is not usually worth chopping tundra forest not on a river, as you cannot build anything on that tile.

[Beam]

We need fishing once we get health issues which there aren't any atm.

In my turn the settler finishes, I plan to start another warrior.

Settler &gt; Burger King plains.

Masonry &gt; Writing.

[grahamiam]

writing is fine, just hold of on the open border demand from Cathy. I agree also with going for Burger King and another warrior. Hopefully, with BurgerKing, we can eliminate most of the barb spawn locations on our corner, and can freely settle Westside as well as the FP cities.

[Shabbaman]

Perhaps we should designate which forests we chop and which we don't.

[Beam]

1990BC - All looks fine

IT - Barb Warrior attacks warrior on forest. 2 &gt; 1.7 . 1 xp.

1960BC - Warrior starts healing 2 turns. Worker start 2nd cottage near the cap

1930BC - [sleep]

1900BC - [sleep]

1870BC - Stonehenge build in a far away land

1840BC - [sleep]

1810BC - Cathy offers Open Borders. Accepted as I think it is best to have some sort of relationship initially.

1780BC - Warrior is bit scouting N to keep it free of barbs.

1750BC - Settler completes in Thebes, moves to Burger King. Thebes starts Warrior in 3 and will grow in 5.

1720BC - Cottage completed, worker moves N to work Burger King. Worker W has completed the cow and starts a road towards Thebes.

1690BC - Burger King found, starts worker. Warrior scouts N and E to prevent barbs.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC1690_01.Civ4SavedGame

[grahamiam]

quote:1810BC - Cathy offers Open Borders. Accepted as I think it is best to have some sort of relationship initially.

I take that to mean she beat us to Writing? Also, with her having open borders with us, we need to take a hard look at the map and see were we must settle next, before she grabs our spot.

[Shabbaman]

We can cancel the open border in 10 turns again, right? I'm not really happy with it tbh, though I get beam's train of thought.

[Beam]

gram, she had Writing well before us. This reduces the chances on an Oracle run imo.

Maybe I had better not agreed Open Borders. It can be cancelled in 6 turns.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam
1810BC - Cathy offers Open Borders. Accepted as I think it is best to have some sort of relationship initially.
A bit risky. I think there is every chance she could try and sneek in a city, probably near sweet spot. I think we3 should cancl this soon. It would be nice to get a warior passed the choke point first though, to meet other civs.

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by Samson

quote:Originally posted by Beam
1810BC - Cathy offers Open Borders. Accepted as I think it is best to have some sort of relationship initially.
A bit risky. I think there is every chance she could try and sneek in a city, probably near sweet spot. I think we3 should cancl this soon. It would be nice to get a warior passed the choke point first though, to meet other civs.


Indeed, send the Memphis(?) warrior into Russia and cancel after 6 turns. This will provide a lot of good info!

[Beam]

The scoregraph (for what it is worth):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006517153758_sgotm_graph_2.php.jpg
89.96KB

We are a bit low in score but for example higher than Rat Pack in this year who passed another team who had a much higher score in this year. Team one lost 7 points, not sure what can cause this. Loss of a tile, unit or even a city?

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam
Indeed, send the Memphis(?) warrior into Russia and cancel after 6 turns. This will provide a lot of good info!

The big thing is not so much info as contact with other civs helps our tech progress.

Is barbu too busy this week? If so, Shabbaman is up.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3579&REPLY_ID=73679
[EDIT] I du no how to link to a single post, Page 2 Post 10.

[Shabbaman]

I can play tonight, somewhere after dinner and before the champion's league final. Instrrructions?

[barbu1977]

I certainly am. I'm off canoeing for 3 days on the weekend and it takes a bit of preparation.

[grahamiam]

our score is low due to low pop. 2 workers, 2 settlers from the capitol will keep it low, plus it looks like our new cities are both building settler/worker, keeping it low as well. Is the capitol working improved rice, cows, and cottaged FP's or is the pop still very low?

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

I can play tonight, somewhere after dinner and before the champion's league final. Instrrructions?
It is very important to get a warior past the choke point before you cancel the open borders.
We need to think about getting the pyramids started (if we are going for it), and where. I would say the second city (Memphis?). It has lots of spare happiness to grow for a while, and plains hills to use up food once it gets close to its happiness limit. We could build it in Burgerking if that is going to be our GP city. It has very little production though. Probably want the stone improved and the road finished first.
I would improve a cow before starting to chop for Burgerking.

[grahamiam]

Memphis (Coppertown?_is our choke town and should have good production with copper and possibly a cow. imho, it should a rax and then units, not a wonder. Burgerking would be ideal for the Pyramids, but it started a worker so it won't grow for a while. With the 2 cows, it should be able to do 6hpt. Pyramids costs 450h on Normal, so it will take a long time even with stone, but if we improve the cows and work the forests, it may be reasonable. I would propose changing the worker to a granery or going straight for Pyramids. Beam has sent our capitol worker N to the town, so it can get the cows improved quickly.

[Beam]

Burger King has been found my last turn so it can still change to Pyramids without losing a turn. It is better site for it because we can chop there. So the worker can pasture the plains cow, move and quarry the stone, then do chopping and tile working around Burger King. Imo Memphis (rename to Copperfield) should be a military city with Rax spamming Axes.

@gram: Thebes indeed is working rice, cow and cottage. A 2nd cottage is build and imo it should grow to 4 to work it.

I started a new topic about General Strategy, most of it assuming we are on an island with Cathy. Comments / contributions appreciated!

About the Open Borders: it is risky as long as it can't be cancelled. Once it can we can leave it and cancel if Cathy moves a settler in our direction.

[grahamiam]

ok, no problem. We've had 2 turnsets in a row without pics of our lands, so it was a little hard for me to visualize how big Thebes has become.

[Beam]

Sorry about that, here our empire.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006517164518_1690bc.jpg
145.94KB

[grahamiam]

oh, goodie, clams for Coppertown! That city can work 3 mined plains hills now :)

edit: no horses? crap

[Beam]

quote:edit: no horses? crap


<s>edit: no horses? crap</s>

Horsies near Burger King [charge]

[Shabbaman]

Playing now.

1690 b.c. changed Burger king to building pyramids. Currently using the cow. Undecided whether I'll work the cow the worker is standing on first or if I should connect the stone asap. Sent the warrior from Copperfield into Russia, warrior from capital towards Copperfield (1 turn 'till new warrior).

1660 b.c. Thebes build a warrior, started on another. After this one my guess is a library. Started building bbq's on the cow near burgerville.

1630 b.c. Nothing.

1600 b.c. Thebes grows to size 4, working the second cottage now. Science to 100% for 1 turn to get writing next turn.

1570 b.c. Got writing, thinking about what to research next. Decided on mysticism, for the Oracle. Due in 6 turns.

1540 b.c. Someone founded judaism. Copperfield finished settler, currently building barracks...
Thebes building a library.

1510 b.c. Founded Westbank, building worker. Copperfield now working cow (for growth). Building quarry.

In the interturn, our scouting warrior defeated a barbarian warrior.

1480 b.c. Moved scouting warrior outside Russian territory (in case of cancelling the open borders), letting it heal since it's down to 0.1. Burger king pasture is ready, building another one. Should be down in 6, BK grows in 6.

1450 b.c. BK's border expand. Set science to 80% to break even at 0 gold. Thebes grows again, now getting the hammers of the stone. Should build more cottages and connect the cow, since there's filth there...

1420 b.c. Crap, oracle has been build! IMO this means switch to fishing after getting mysticism.

Well, that's it. Match has been busy for 15 minutes, perhaps I'll post screenies during the rest.

Save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC1420_01.Civ4SavedGame

[Beam]

quote:Undecided whether I'll work the cow the worker is standing on first or if I should connect the stone asap.

I suggest to start with the cow on the plains as it will make Burger King both grow and productive.

[Shabbaman]

After writing it's mysticism&gt;meditation&gt;priesthood I guess?

[Beam]

That's the path to CoL isn't it?

[grahamiam]

whatever we can do to make CoL cheaper, because that's going to be the tech we need to start expanding. We can go Math, Currency, CoL which would be fine as well, especially since we are not religous and we could use the extra shields from the chopped forests for the Pyramids. Actually, I think Math next would be better, but Math is more expensive than Myst+Med+Priesthood

[grahamiam]

Samson
bedhead
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman -&gt; just played
grahamiam -&gt; UP
socralynnek -&gt; on deck

I'll play and post tonight or tomorrow, once we decide on which path to CoL we want to research.

[Beam]

Fishing would be the tech since Theebs [lol] is not the most healthy place on the planet but there isn't a city where workboats can be build soon. The worker from Westbank is badly needed and also is the optimal city for workboats. Techpaths imo should cover both Fishing &gt; Sailing and on to CoL.

Lots of jungle in Russia and still no other AI. And sea on the S of what looks like a Russian pen to me.

[Shabbaman]

You all read that someone already build the Oracle, right?

[socralynnek]

Yeah, that's bad, you are right, we should go after fishing to get those clams.

Still I'd go for CoL for Courthouses and the religion.

[Samson]

I took some screen shots.

Looks good, score is booming and up into the middle of the pack.

The pyramids are a bit of a worry if they already have done the oricle. The question is do we chop the 2 tundra forests? They are the only "improvement" that we can have on tundra, but they are likely to give us about 6 turns on the pyramids. I normally would never chop them, but it is very important we get the pyramids so we could do it. Not until they are nearly built though, same for the plains forests (we are likely to need them for production).

Do we want any graneries? I normally build them ASAP, I would prioritize them above war on Cathy.

Worker turns seem a bit of a priority, we should think carfully about what we improve.

Fishing is important now, I reakon that has to be the next tech.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/2006518133829_Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG
134.07KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/2006518134910_Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG
77.15KB

[Shabbaman]

Question.

We get a production bonus on the pyramids from stone. Does it matter then if we chop before or after we've hooked up the stone?

[socralynnek]

Yes, that matters, we have to hook them up before chopping IIRC.

[grahamiam]

yes, definitely need the stone hooked up before the chop. We have a worker on top of the stone, so I'll put a quarry on it ASAP and then road it to BurgerKing.

Question: I know rivers and roads connect cities, but if I build a road on the stone and then 1T E or NE, and also build a road on the 2 cows near BurgerKing, with BK be connected thru the lake?

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
Question: I know rivers and roads connect cities, but if I build a road on the stone and then 1T E or NE, and also build a road on the 2 cows near BurgerKing, with BK be connected thru the lake?

I am fairly sure that it will not, you need something to conect a road to a coast (a city or a river). I am certain it will not before sailing.

[grahamiam]

ok, in that case, I'll road the Stone, then road NE towards BurgerKing, thru the forest. So, the stone worker will build a quarry, then road, move/road, then road towards BurgerKing, either N or NE. Other worker finishes the pasture, then moves S or SE to the forest to begin roading.

I also want to chop the 2 forests S of Burgerking (grass and plains) but leave the tundra forest intact.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
I also want to chop the 2 forests S of Burgerking (grass and plains) but leave the tundra forest intact.

We only have 5 good tiles for burgerking to work if we remove the forests. We may want to leave 1 or 2 until the pyramids are almost done so it can work them. Also if we are going to be beaten to the pyramids I would like to use those forests for something else.

Ie. I would leave the forests for now.

[socralynnek]

Yes, better leave the tundra forests intact as long as possible. Maybe only to get the Pyramids done in the same turn.

[grahamiam]

re: research

Fishing is cheap and should be done during my turnset. What do we want to do after that? Continue on towards CoL? If so, how? Via Math/Currency or Priesthood?

Also, after the Library in Theebs, I'd like to build another settler for a FP city. A FP cottage spam town will get our economy going quite well.

[socralynnek]

Math increases chop yield, currency allows for cash trades, so those are the more valuable but expensive techs.

[Shabbaman]

Aside from getting to CoL fast, the priesthood path isn't worth as much as currency/math. I'd say math.

[grahamiam]

Well, regarding the hpt vs chopping in BurgerKing, we'll be doing the following:
+1 hpt CC
+2 for grass cow (pasturized)
+3 for plains cow (pasturized)
+2 for grass horse (pasturized)

So thats +8hpt without the forests. Add the grass forest and the plains forest, and we have +3 more, or 11hpt, while also doing +4fpt. I would like to chop the grass forest, as it'll only give us +1hpt, but the shields from the chop will be more than 30 turns worth of work. Also, at size 5. we could work a mined plains hill for +14hpt, but it would slow our growth to +2fpt. After the pyramids, we can work the netted fish instead of the plains hill to get the town growing again.

[Beam]

Just checked the sav:
- Maths (30t) is a prereq for Currency so there is not really a choice between the 2 unless there is an alternate path.
- Fishing is 6t, Sailing 14t
- Meditation (12t) &gt; Priesthood (9t)

There isn't a lot of usefull stuff in the religious path unless converted to a religion.

Nice thing about Maths is indeed better chopping to the Pyr but it will be 30 turns (minus couple of turns because of growth and lib) before it is available. Pyr is still 168 turns, in 4 turns BK will grow and the pasture ready so 50% more shields. 168 - 4 = 164 * 2/3 is about 105 turns. The quarry will take about 11 turns to be connected if both workers are dedicated to roading and quarrying. So in 11 turns the Pyr is (105-11)/2 = 47 turns away. In 15 turns add another hammer to BK, Pyr = 43 * 6 / 7 = 36 turns. So if my calcs are correct Pyr is 36 + 15 = 51 turns without chopping from now. Actually a bit faster because BK can grow more so make that 45 or so.

With current beakers Fishing + Maths is 6 + 30 = 36 turns, add 20% (???) increase in beakers during those turns makes it about 29 turns. Which leaves about 16 turns for enhanced chopping. Ball park figure.

Edit: forgot the pastured horse mentioned by gram. I'll see if I can put it in a spreadsheet. How much is a standard chop again?

[grahamiam]

i'll try to search CFC for the chop values. They were nerfed in 1.61f, but I forget the differences between epic and normal

[grahamiam]

ok, on epic, forest = 20 * 1.5 = 30 hammers. Once we get math and stone, the forest will = 2 * (30*1.5) = 90 hammers

[Beam]

More or less got it. First key assumptions for growth and resulting hammers:
- Atm 4 hammers
- In 4 turns growth and +2 hammers from the cow
- In 11 turns access to marble half the shields required (in the spreadsheet I doubled production)
- In 12 turns growth and +3 hammers from the horse (checked both the pedia and a testgame with the same parameters)
- In 21 turns growth and +2 hammers from the forest on plains (the forest on grass could also be used but growing to 5 doesn't add significant shields in the process).

Pyr requires 675 without Marble and 24 are already acquired. Don't want to chop the tundra forest. I checked the same testgame and a chop there gives 54 hammers, so 2 chops brings 108 hammers.

Result if we complete 2 chops when Maths is available Pyr is 31 turns away. Since I assume chops started before Math still give +50% when completed with Math chopping should start no later than 26 turns from now.

Without Maths the same process takes 34 turns.

Also assuming we get about 20% increase in beakers during the process it looks like we can go Fishing &gt; Maths and have improved chopping in time for the Pyr. :)

Edit:Need to make a correction. Both workers are needed to connect the stone in 11 turns which means the pasture on the horse can't be completed in 12 turns. This delays the whole thing by 1 or 2 turns but doesn't change the overall picture.

[grahamiam]

by growing to 5, we could work a mined hill, right?

[Beam]

We could but growth from 4 to 5 would take about 10 turns so about the time the Pyr is completed thus losing an extra shield for 10 turns. We also could work a mined hill when BK grows to size 4. Assuming we discover Maths in time the whole process takes 29 (plus 1 or 2 because of the delayed horse pasture) turns with the mined hill according to the spreadsheet.

[Shabbaman]

BTW, I just wanted to mention in advance that I'm away from friday afternoon until sometimes sunday evening.

[grahamiam]

guys, we really need to post turnlogs over at CFC. Please remember to do it.

[grahamiam]

Preflight check:Looks good. Move the Northern warrior 1T W to reveal more tiles. Pasture done in 4T, quarry in 6T, Myst in 1T

IBT: Myst -&gt; Fishing (6T). Pyramids completed in a far away land [lol]

T1: 1390 BC Well, that ends the Pyramids discussion! Exploring Warrior moves NE, finds another Russian town with archers.

IBT:BurgerKing starts a granary (22T), we gain 28g

T2: 1360 BC Exploring Warrior N. Crank up research to 100% (-7gpt) to get Fishing in 3T vs 5T)

IBT:

T3: 1330 BC Exploring Warrior NW.

IBT:

T4: 1300 BC Pasture on cow is done. No rush for the stone, so road go ahead and pasture the horse. Misclick causes us to lose one turn :(

IBT: Fishing -&gt; Sailing. Without the need for high shield chops, we could use the lighthouse build to get us extra food.
Borders of Westbank expand.

T6: 1270 BC BurgerKing is switched to a workboat. Worker moves to the horse and begins a pasture (6T)

IBT:Quarry is completed

T7: 1240 BC Road the quarry

IBT:

T8: 1210 BC Exploring warrior is back on the West side of Russia. It should heal but that will take 10T, so I keep him moving.

IBT:

T9: 1180 BC Exploring Warrior finds a sliver of land

IBT:

T10: 1150 BC Sliver of land is nothing. However, there is coastal tiles connecting to another landmass on the West side of Russia.
Worker finishes roading the quarry, runs to Westside's beef. Next player can lay down the pasture.
Thebes can be MM'd to grow next turn if desired.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/SGOTM1-CDZ-1150BC.jpg

Samson -&gt; on deck
bedhead
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek -&gt; UP

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC1150_01.Civ4SavedGame

[Shabbaman]

Wow, the AI is really productive in this game...

[socralynnek]

I guess, we won't have any Settler ready in my turnset, so no need for discussing next city for me.

I can play later today.

In copperfield, I'll start building some units (axe).

Which way should we now go for CoL? Still via the more expensive but more useful way math-curr?
Should I start another Settler in Thebes after Library is done or do we want an early academy (scientists)?

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

guys, we really need to post turnlogs over at CFC. Please remember to do it.

Looking at the PM they just sent me, it looks like they want a bit more than just the turn logs;
[EDIT] Just saw that grahamiam posted all our discusions there. Great job, but do we have to watch our language here? ;)
quote:As such your main communication should be in CFC.
quote: I would like a prerequisite for being an official team to include public complete discussions and descriptions.
I guess the problem is Shabbaman cannot access CFC from work? Shall we just hope full turnlogs would be enough, or do we need to sort something else out?
quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman
Wow, the AI is really productive in this game...
Yeah, pyramids in 1420 BC is very quick. I guess it means we have to go for war. I reakon there is a good chance it will be against an AI just past thouse mountains.


<s></s><s></s>

[Beam]

That's awfully fast for Pyramids! According to F9 the city was founded in 4000 BC and also build Stonehenge. AI playing OCC?

I'm thinking of a settler next in Theebs and settle Fish 'n Chips for some cottage spamming.

IW is available in 19 turns but the only benefit is knowing if / where Iron is so imo start the reli path to CoL.

[grahamiam]

Library in Theebs will be done soon, and I agree 100% with Beam on settler and location. Also, I agree with Socr. that Theebs should get a scientist, which will help with Math but also get us an Academy.

[grahamiam]

Also, let's just keep posting here as most of the team is more comfortable here. If you want to dump a turnlog over at CFC, then that's great as it'll save me some time. Otherwise, I can do a daily (or every 2 day) dump over at CFC to keep things civil. If someone wants to help with it, let me know. Maybe we can alternate days or something.

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

Also, let's just keep posting here as most of the team is more comfortable here. If you want to dump a turnlog over at CFC, then that's great as it'll save me some time. Otherwise, I can do a daily (or every 2 day) dump over at CFC to keep things civil. If someone wants to help with it, let me know. Maybe we can alternate days or something.


More than happy to help, alternating schedule is fine with me. My turn today I guess?

[grahamiam]

Thanks Beam :)

[socralynnek]

So, I'll play in a few minutes...

[socralynnek]

So, I played until 925 BC.
We have sailing and I chose the religious path to CoL cause it's muchmuchmuch faster than the match/curr path.

Hinduism has spread to Westside, canceled Open Borders with Russia afterwards because they are running out of land and would surely be sending a Settler soon (and if we cancel the deal then it might jump to the free land)

Settler started in Thebes. Using a scientist there.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0925_01.Civ4SavedGame

Samson -&gt; UP
bedhead -&gt; on deck
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

[Beam]

Good decison to cancel the OB soc, a settler from St.P could move to the E borders of Copperfield and we do not really need it until a Galley goes scouting for new found land (Newfoundland?? [lol]):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200652011040_land.jpg
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St.P has a Lib as shown here, tiles S of Copperfield are steady iirc so no real worry imo:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200652011246_libstpeter.jpg
75.52KB

I always simply referred to Demographics in III as F11, got to get used to call it F9 now:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200652011916_f9.jpg
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GNP: room for improvement, yet we got plenty of room with all those fps
MFG: numero uno
Food: number 3 spot mainly the result of the scientist in Theebs, working the rice gives 42 and 2nd spot but causes health and happiness issues soon
Soldiers: the usual 7th
Pop: 5th, Rival worst is just 1/4th of our pop! [rotfl] In III this would be a major issue, in IV it is more important what the pop is doing imo.
Approval: 7th, who cares if it is just leveled
Life Expectancy: 6th, not sure how this is calculated
Trade (imports/exports): no one trading yet.

BK is -1 in happiness and soc send a warrior to solve that. It means the N area is unscouted so barbs could originate their. Build a warrior in BK after the Gran to scout the N? An Axe could be build as well but takes more hammers and does the same job.

Med (2) &gt; Priests (5) &gt; CoL (28)

Which brings the question of religion. Convert to Hindu or adopt Confu assuming we are going to make it?

[Beam]

This was posted by AlanH at CFC today:

quote:Why would CDZ be particularly disadvantaged? I suspect not all players in the other teams have daytime access from work either, so I'm not sure I buy that as a sufficient reason for treating your CFC thread as second best. However, getting the discussions copied here is better than what we had previously.

My reply:quote:@AlanH: as a very popular game site CFC is blocked from many company networks. Including those where some of our teammemembers have a job. CDZ doesn't suffer from that with most companies and since we as you feel teamplay is very important in the SGOTM using CDZ as the prime forum for discussion while posting updates at CFC on a regular basis serves both goals of satisfying gameplay, keeping the ppl here informed and have a log for the other teams once the SGOTM is finished.

grahamain and me agreed to post daily updates at CFC as an alternating daily / twodaily routine. So here we go: (todays posts follow)

gram and me agreed to do the job copy / paste to CFC, please provide us with a turnlog after you played turns, plz.

[grahamiam]

btw, do some of our team memembers only access the internet from work and are therefore extremely limited because CFC is not available from work?

[Samson]

I should be able to take this later today or tommorrow. Any decisions need to be made?

Burger king is going to be a commerce city? So we need a lib there at some point, but after 2 work boats and at least 1 galley.

Are we going to priesthood via meditation or polytheism? I would say meditation as it is cheaper and it allows monastries. Polytheism is required for monotheism (allowing organised religion).

As we are spiritual we can swop state religion as much as we like. I would change to hinduism to keep Cathy sweet. I would tempted to build a monastry in westside and get some missonarys out, esp. to Thebes cos it will need the happiness at some point. Quite an investment in hammers though when we MAY get it for free.

Do we still have 3 forests around westside? we could use them for the monastry. I guess we are not that far of maths, so it could be around the time when we should leave them.

If I have a settler I shall put it on the desert hill unless there is any other opinions on the city placement thread.

Copperfield will pump wariors for the moment, until we have enough to bust all the fog.

[grahamiam]

re: burger king: I think that's going to be our GP city, with all that food. Therefore, a Library is definitely in order for the GScientist.

I'm fine with Meditation, just wish Cathy would convert us already

I'm also fine with the desert hill. That will be another commerce city, so best to get the cottages up ASAP.

Copperfield can pump axes and War Chariots. What good are warriors? Nearly all the fog is busted anyways.

[Samson]

Got it.

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
I'm fine with Meditation, just wish Cathy would convert us already

Copperfield can pump axes and War Chariots. What good are warriors? Nearly all the fog is busted anyways.

We can convert now. I shall do it.

Axes for the minute then.

[Samson]

925 BC - Convert to Hinduism. Cow = 83% ours.

IBT -Hinduism spreads to copperfeild. That will give us more culture to keep our borders. Conect first city (Copperfield) to capital.

910 BC - Warior to Burgerking, no more unhappiness. Put citizen on plains forest farther than fish, as it cannot support any more pop. Growth still in 10 turns. Worker to grassland forest next to BK, considering road there.

IBT - Meditation discovered, start on Preisthood (3). Axeman finished CF, start on work boat. granery finished in BK, start on Lib.

895 BC - Cow 82% Ours. We may have to think about culture in CF at some point. Worker builds road on cottage south of Westbank.

880 BC - Other worker finishes road by WB. Axeman NE, warior to sweet spot.

IBT -Moses born somewhere else. Do we care?

865 BC - No more fog at sweetspot (warior there). 2 workers mining plains hill for CF.

850 BC - Worker towards fish n chips.

IBT - Preisthood discovered, start on CoL (28).

835 BC - Worker does 1 turn of cottage NE of Thebes.

820 BC - Worker starts cottage for Fish n Chips. Mine for CF finished, start mine. I thought long and hard about what to do with the other worker, I ended up deciding to contine the road onto the forest NE, E of West Bank.

IBT - Settler finishes in Theebs, start settler I guess, nothing else obvious to build here. Work boat finishes in CF. I am very tempted by a monastry, we need religeon in BK ASAP. I decide on 1 War chariot fisrt, finished the turn after I finish so someone else can make the decision then.

805 BC - Change my mind abou tthe road near WB, start on cottage for WB, finished 1 turn before it is needed, no worker turns lost.

790 BC - Move axeman, only 2 tiles of fog on our peninula. The settler moves to the desert hill.

IBT - Barb Archer apears NE, E, E of BK.

775 BC - I move the Axeman SW so it is on a hill next to the archer. I hope the archer will attack, but it could move onto the horses. The axeman can then attack it (should be easy). I have not moved the settler, it could found the city on the desert hill or the desert this turn.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0775_01.Civ4SavedGame

Decisions for next player -

[EDIT] I almost forgot, what promotion to give the axeman. Could be done this turn.

Where to build city.
Monastry or more units for CF. A galley would be nice, we may find some more land past thouse mountains.
What to do with the fog busting axeman after killing archer. I guess heal somewhere where he busts a lot of fog. I would like to see the sea north of the silver, it would be nice if there was a food source up there that would make settling the silver worth while, as an extra happiness would be very good just now.
What to build in Fish n Chips? I reakon grannery, or possibly library
.

[Beam]

Settling Fish 'n Chips on the desert hill fine with me, building a gran there will give +1h from the rice. Very much in favor of a Monastery in CF for 2 reasons. To have additional culture because the cow is at 73% now and to build a missionary for BK.

We can wait with promotions until it is clear which promotion is the best.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

Settling Fish 'n Chips on the desert hill fine with me, building a gran there will give +1h from the rice. Very much in favor of a Monastery in CF for 2 reasons. To have additional culture because the cow is at 73% now and to build a missionary for BK.
73% ? Wow, that is quite a change. I expect we will lose the cow at some point (at lease we will keep the copper). Definaty build the monastry, and I guess a temple as well (the happiness will be good as well). It think monatries give 2 culture? I do not think there is a great need for more milatry ATM.
quote:Originally posted by BeamWe can wait with promotions until it is clear which promotion is the best.

Thing is there is every chance it will be attacked in the IBT, not much chance of it loosing though.

[grahamiam]

just give the axe a general combat 1 promotion. It kills the archer, then goes combat 2 (+20%) and will be a strength 6 unit (strength 9 vs swords and other axes). Should be good for general protection

[Shabbaman]

Back! Too tired to play or properly discuss anything now though. BTW, do those CFC mods they're running some kind of turnlog museum or something? What's next, they demand MSN chatlogs from every team? Exactly the kind of attitude that turns me off...

[Beam]

I'd really like the game moving and although bedhead is up and I'm on deck I'd like if another set of turns is played today. I'll wait an hour or so. Bedhead can play after me. Everybody ok with this / objections?

[socralynnek]

OK with me although it's more than an hour after your post...

[Beam]

775BC: Fish 'n Chips founded on the desert hill. Close inspection of the mountain range reveals nothing but mountains and water. Tried to capture the waves, unsuccessfully.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200652122421_nothing there.jpg
69.64 KB

IT: The N Axe feels a light shake in the Axe. It appears some species called "Barb Archer" attempted to attack. No damage, Axe goes 5/5 and is granted 10% strengt and another promotion pending.

760BC: CF completes WC &gt; Monastery. BK again goes unhappy. CoL in 20.

745BC: Scouting Axe sees a barb Axe omfg.

730BC: Barb Axes has moved to BK, our Axes closes in on a hill.

IT: Axeman battle, we win! Axe goes 6/5 at 2.5/5

715BC: Axes gets Combat II and moves N to heal. BK completes Lib, gets a scientist and starts Galley.

700BC: Cathy has Gems available, we got a Stone not used for anything so a deal is made. BK goes happy again and another scientist.

685BC: All cities are working their optimal tiles so 2 workers continue the transcontinental interstate and one is working another cottage near FnC.

670BC: Very interesting turn.

IT: FnC expands and with 2 units scouting fog is gone. Cathy offers Open borders. Nice gesture, wrong time.

655BC: Westbank grows and is MM'd to complete gran prior to next growth. Science is upped 10% for CoL in 8. Cow S of CF is at 68%, Monastery will complete next turn.

640BC: Monastery in CF &gt; Missionary for BK. Cow steady at 68% but should be monitored closely. The tiles N of St.P were at 91%, 90% current so looking good.

625BC: Healed Axe arrives on the silver and just sees ice and water there. Workers are roading / cottaging to FnC. CF cow is steady at 68% and N St.P tiles go to 89%. Although I played 10 turns now I'll play one more to grow FnC which will make the score a little nicer.

610BC: CoL in 4, no unit actions performed.

To be discussed:
- what to research after CoL? Happiness is an issue under control but limits city growth atm. Sweet spot has a sugar which requires Maths &gt; Calendar.
- next city? Settler completes in Theebs in 1 turn. Imo either sweet spot or riverside.

Most cities are MM'd for what they are doing and require attention every turn. I was just cursing at myself cause I changed Theebs one turn to late for the settler.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

655BC: Westbank grows and is MM'd to complete gran prior to next growth.
You know that now it does not matter weather you build a granery just before growth or just after? It is just that each time food is put into the bin then another 50% is put into the grannery.

Great news about the gems.

[Beam]

Sav is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0610_01.Civ4SavedGame

@samson, I playtested the granary thing in an old 4otm save and there it behaved like in III. Has it changed with the patch?

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

Sav is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0610_01.Civ4SavedGame

@samson, I playtested the granary thing in an old 4otm save and there it behaved like in III. Has it changed with the patch?

I am 95% sure that in 1.51 it worked like I am desctibing (not like Civ 3 at all). I shall have a go at play testing it lunchtime.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Samson

I am 95% sure that in 1.51 it worked like I am desctibing (not like Civ 3 at all). I shall have a go at play testing it lunchtime.

I have just tested it. I built the grannery a turn before growth and I only had 5 food in the box, about right for 1 turn of having a grannery.

the save just in case you want to test it (may not leave it there for ever);

http://205.234.144.65/~server/temp/DEV1_BC-3520GranneryTest.Civ4SavedGame

[grahamiam]

Samson
bedhead -&gt; UP
Beam -&gt; just played (and seems to be in a race [:) )
barbu -&gt; on deck
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

[bed_head7]

Got it. Going to read through all of the posts and whatnot and play tonight.

[bed_head7]

610 BC (0) - Looks good everywhere. I think I will focus on mining hills with the workers, instead of continuing to cottage.

580 BC (2) - Settle Sweet Spot on the grassland tile. Copperfield finished up its missionary, and I start it on a library for some culture and some science.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/bed_head7/20065235220_sgotm1_sweetspot.jpg
74.55 KB

520 BC (6) - We learn Code of Laws, and I start up on Mathematics. Our galley hits Russian borders - I am not sure if we should sign Open Borders or not so we can keep exploring. I guess I'll just let the galley wait for a few turns, and then we can talk about it as a team.

505 BC (7) - Built a work boat in Burger King to send over to Fish'N'Chips. Will take a few turns.

460 BC (10) - Not too much to report in the last turns. In Theebs, a granary finished up, and I started a settler. That is vertoable, of course, as no shields have yet been invested, but I feel like we should go get silver so we have another luxury and can expand our population more easily. Of course, other than silver that spot is marginal, but it couldn't hurt. Also to be decided is Open Borders with Russia, so our galley can go check out that island down there. I thiink that covers everything.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/bed_head7/200652352135_sgotm1_460BC.jpg
56 KB

[socralynnek]

Maybe we should wait with Open Borders until we settled that spot. Cathy might have a Settler ready for going there and we couldn't stop her.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by socralynnek

Maybe we should wait with Open Borders until we settled that spot. Cathy might have a Settler ready for going there and we couldn't stop her.

Which spot? I think the important ones are Silverado and Riverside, I would not cry too much about clam chowder.

If the galley is just hanging about, how about checking beyond those mountains? We may find somewhere for it to go.

[grahamiam]

We need to start eyeing Cathy's lands. We've fully explored her, so what are her key cities? Which ones do we want to keep or dump?

[Samson]

Heres a picture of her lands. I think a bigger question is when do we attack. We obviously wait till we have a few cats, but I would be tempted to wait until we have alphabet so we can get a few techs off her before we destroy her.

I think we raise Rostov and put 2 cities on the south coast. Novogrod would be better 1 tile up, but it may be worth keeping. It would be nice to move Moscow onto the coast, but it is the hindu holy city so we have to keep it.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/samson/200652315910_Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG
82.8KB

I shall have to learn how to shrink the screen shots, anyone know how to do it without installing some pirate software?

[grahamiam]

i always just load it in MS Paint and shrink it to 78% vert and horizontal.

As far as attacking cathy goes, WC's probably could cut thru the defenses at St. Pete's, though it does have 2 expansions. I really feel we have to take all her land before LB's come online. Otherwise, it'll be a slog. St. Pete's and Moscow are on hills, so those will be difficult without cats...

questions: Why is Copperfield building a library? What about units? Ditto Westbank. Both are low commerce towns that should be focused on unit-building if possible. Also, BurgerKing is building a courthouse, is our maintenance that bad already?

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

i always just load it in MS Paint and shrink it to 78% vert and horizontal.

As far as attacking cathy goes, WC's probably could cut thru the defenses at St. Pete's, though it does have 2 expansions. I really feel we have to take all her land before LB's come online. Otherwise, it'll be a slog. St. Pete's and Moscow are on hills, so those will be difficult without cats...

questions: Why is Copperfield building a library? What about units? Ditto Westbank. Both are low commerce towns that should be focused on unit-building if possible. Also, BurgerKing is building a courthouse, is our maintenance that bad already?

I agree with Copperfield. We may lose the cow for a few turns (it is 67% ATM), but a few WC's would be much better in the long term. Have we put too much into it to abbandon it now?

Westbank it a commerce city so should get a lib.

I agree with building courthouses in low production cities now, we will need them sooner rather than later.

Cats make war so much more efficent, and we are likely to have cats around the time we are ready to attack with only 1 or 2 milatry cities (we could get Theebs on milatry).

[grahamiam]

Library looks almost done in Copperfield. I thought Westfield was also a military town, so my bad there.

[barbu1977]

OK, I'll try to give it a go tonight and tomorow morning.

[Beam]

Cathy has mined the Copper so she most likely has Axes.

[barbu1977]

Could someone take this one. I'm realy busy also this week and a SGOTM on my top priorities.

But I'd realy like to give it a go on saturday if possible.

[bed_head7]

Sorry about the libraries. As for corruption - yeah, it is kind of getting nasty.

[Beam]

Samson
bedhead
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman -&gt; UP
grahamiam -&gt; on deck
socralynnek

[Shabbaman]

I think I can play in 4 hours time.

[grahamiam]

You may want to whip that settler in Theebs once it gets to size 6. There's an exploit in CIV where we can take advantage of whip shields that you may want to try. On normal speed, each whipped citizen gives you 30 shields minimum. So, if you are 31 shields from completing the project, you whip and get 60 shields (31 to finish, 29 for the next build). Not sure if that becomes min 45 in Epic speed, with a sweet spot of 46, but maybe someone else knows.

[Shabbaman]

Eh?

[grahamiam]

Settler costs 150 food/hammers. When you are up to pop 6 and have ~100/150 left, pop rush it. This should give you another 40 shields or so for the next build, which can be a rax or a unit.

[Shabbaman]

So you whip 3 population?

[grahamiam]

should only be 2 pop for 90 shields, unless my grasp of this is all wrong. With all the food that the capitol has, that should be reclaimed rather fast.

[Shabbaman]

So what's the exploit then?

[grahamiam]

ah, I'm probably not fully understanding it as I've just started to try to use it, but basically maximize your shields/pop point, so the overflow can go into the next build.

Article is here -&gt; http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159109 and it seems that the best way to maximize this is with a granery and forge. Also, it states to whip just before growth (ie, 1T before getting to size 6) rather than after growth.

Sorry, forgot you don't have access to CFC. Here's a pdf of the whipping part

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif Whiptillyoubleed.pdf (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grahamiam/200652416556_Whiptillyoubleed.pdf)
65.2KB

[Shabbaman]

I'm home now :)
Thanks for the link.

EDIT: and now I read AlanH's pm as well. Nice bit from some of his feedback:

quote:
I request CDZ be disqualified/eliminated from competition (and respectfully wished all the best in their "playing with themselves") unless immediately start posting discussions in CFC threads (like other teams) AND keeping their posts up to date without omissions. Isn't a HUGE component of the competition about being public (interesting/entertaining/educational)? I have no problem with them or anybody else doing their own thing but I would like a prerequisite for being an official team to include public complete discussions and descriptions.

I wonder why people not participating in the SGOTM bother with asking us to be disqualified. Oh well.

Anyway, I'm going to play in an hour or so. Any instructions besides whipping [whipped]

[Samson]

I think burger king is on avoid growth. I would consider taking it off and then considering wipping that at some point.

[grahamiam]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

Cathy has mined the Copper so she most likely has Axes.

better axes than LB's.

[Shabbaman]

460 b.c. I open the save and look at the different cities. First thing I notice is that BK isn't working the fish. It's producing a courthouse (as grahamian noticed). I don't really know how courthouses work, but the maintenance is only 2 in BK. Isn't this a waste?
As I assume we don't want open borders I send the galley the other way. Since we want units I change westbank to barracks.
I send the worker that mined the hill next to FnC over to Theebs to road towards where Clam chowder will be.

445 b.c. Copperfield finishes barracks, starts building WC. BK switches to lighthouse. Science set to 50%, because we run out of gold.

430 b.c. Westbank's borders expand.

I notice something stupid: BK hasn't grown for the last 3 turns, while it keeps saying that it needs 1 more turn to grow. Should it grow? What's going on? It's breaking even op hapiness, extra growth (thus) won't add much. After some thinking I figured it's set to no growth

415 b.c. Best. Turn. Ever.

400 b.c. CF makes WC, switches to axe. I feel that we should make a missionary here to spread hinduism in BK. Then we can build a temple there to make good use of all the food there. A point up for discussion. I don't do it right away, I have no idea if it's considered stupid or wise.
Started on another cottage near FnC.

385 b.c. enter

370 b.c. Made fishing boats near FnC, didn't switch to working the fish though because I figured we need the gold for math now.

355 b.c. CF made axe, builds WC now. Noticed CF has grown to size 6.

340 b.c. Started on a cottage near BK.

I stop here at the end of turn, we have math next turn. I think we have some stuff to discuss, like what to research next and where to build our next city. I'm rereading some stuff to find out if we already decided, but I'm getting really tired as it is one and a half hour past my bedtime.

I've uploaded the save here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_BC0340_01.Civ4SavedGame).

[grahamiam]

definitely a waste. It reduces that cities maintenence cost by 50%. It will not effect other cities. imho, we should reserve the courts for Cathy's lands as the distance maintenece will be high. Our core can wait till the size maintenance starts to increase to 4 or 5gpt.

Also, if BK is getting too big for it's pop, look at whipping something useful. That city, I think, already has a library. Perhaps a monastary or a market would be useful there as well, or a temple for some extra happy gas.

[Shabbaman]

OK then, I propose we build a lighthouse there then. BTW, I just noticed a flaw in your settler whipping plan: Theebs won't reach size 6 as it is currently producing a settler, and won't grow.

[grahamiam]

[lol] of course

[grahamiam]

Hi,
just read the log. We are running out of money due to expansion, but that's ok. Just means FishNChips needs to develope those cottages and we'll whip some markets once currency comes in. We'll also get heaps of gold conquering Cathy, which will allow us to drive up the research rate.

For BK, if the growth will just be an angry citizen, don't bother. better to work a tree tile for extra shields.

[Shabbaman]

I figured that last one out, it's on "no growth". What if we use the whip there? It has a lot of food, so it could grow back really really fast.

[Beam]

Just took a look at the sav posted by Shabba and have a couple of suggestions:
- Our GNP sux big time. 5th of the pack. I tested some MMing and we can easily improve to 3rd (33 vs. current 24) without seriously impacting current production. Thebes for example is building a settler in 3 while working the stone. It also can complete the settler in 3 while working a fp cottage. Another example is BK producing a Lighthouse which gives additional food. But if it grows its happiness will be -1 so there is no use for the extra food. So the Lighthouse can be slowed down and tiles switched from food + hammers to little food with commerce.
- Couple of cities are at max happiness but do not have an extra happiness cause lack of religion and miss another one cause they can't build a temple. Copperfield can build missionaries and imo should build those alternating with units. Otherwise another monastery should be build elsewhere.
- Calendar or IW after Maths. Calendar allows a Plantation on the sugar giving one more happiness. IW reveals Iron giving the Sword (if we have Iron) which is a nice addition in the stack to Cathy.
- Most corruption is -4 in CF at the moment so not a lot of need for courts atm.

[Shabbaman]

I'm glad you agree with the missionary. I'd say we spread hinduism in BK and build a monastery (and/or temple) there . BK can grow very quickly, can't we use the whip there?

[digger760]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

I'm glad you agree with the missionary.

I agree with the missionary position as well, along with many others;)

[grahamiam]

looks like I'm up. will try to play and post tonight or tomorrow night

[socralynnek]

I'd say research: Calendar-&gt;IW-&gt;Curr. The markets will be nice.

[Rik Meleet]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

This was posted by AlanH at CFC today:

quote:Why would CDZ be particularly disadvantaged? I suspect not all players in the other teams have daytime access from work either, so I'm not sure I buy that as a sufficient reason for treating your CFC thread as second best. However, getting the discussions copied here is better than what we had previously.

My reply:quote:@AlanH: as a very popular game site CFC is blocked from many company networks. Including those where some of our teammemembers have a job. CDZ doesn't suffer from that with most companies and since we as you feel teamplay is very important in the SGOTM using CDZ as the prime forum for discussion while posting updates at CFC on a regular basis serves both goals of satisfying gameplay, keeping the ppl here informed and have a log for the other teams once the SGOTM is finished.

grahamain and me agreed to post daily updates at CFC as an alternating daily / twodaily routine. So here we go: (todays posts follow)

gram and me agreed to do the job copy / paste to CFC, please provide us with a turnlog after you played turns, plz.

This might help against blocked sites at work : http://www.peacefire.org/

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by socralynnek

I'd say research: Calendar-&gt;IW-&gt;Curr. The markets will be nice.

I would rather construction than Calender if we are likely to get it before war with Cathy. Catapults make a massive difference to the efficency of war. We only get 1 more happiness from the sugar, and then only after IW as well. 1 more when we colonise Newfoundland (if we get there before Cathy, doubtfull I suspect). Does Cathy have any other Calender resorces? There is something north of mosco, looks like sugar to me.

Currancy is going to be very important once we expand our empire.

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by Samson

quote:Originally posted by socralynnek

I'd say research: Calendar-&gt;IW-&gt;Curr. The markets will be nice.

I would rather construction than Calender if we are likely to get it before war with Cathy. Catapults make a massive difference to the efficency of war. We only get 1 more happiness from the sugar, and then only after IW as well. 1 more when we colonise Newfoundland (if we get there before Cathy, doubtfull I suspect). Does Cathy have any other Calender resorces? There is something north of mosco, looks like sugar to me.

Currancy is going to be very important once we expand our empire.



Samson, very good point. I totally forgot about the pults. [blush] Sugar is the only Calendar resource in Russia, couple of them but non one to trade with. Construction would be 26 turns after Maths and with current GNP settings.

[grahamiam]

sorry, i had 1 sg and the MTDG to play last night and ran out of time. Will play tonight

[Shabbaman]

So, what about letting BK grow and then use the whip?

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

So, what about letting BK grow and then use the whip?


[shabba] is [whipped] obsessed. [lol]

[grahamiam]

Preflight check: MM Thebes off stone and onto FP. We can mine another hill in Copperfield for 19spt. That means a WC every 2T. MM Burger King off Cow and onto Hills. Will finish out the Lighthouse. If I whip, it'll be for a market or forge, not a Lighthouse ;)

Inca are up Currency (can trade gold with us).

Team seems to want to go for Construction next. I really think Monarchy would solve our happy problems and get us going, but I'll go with construction.

IBT: Math -&gt; Const

T1: 325 BC Cottage FP near FishNChips

IBT: Copperfield WC -&gt; Missionary; BurgerKing Lighthouse -&gt; galley

T2: 310 BC Bump sci slider up to 60%, due in 16T vs 18; MM Copperfield for extra shields, Missionary due in 3T vs 4T

IBT: Thebes settler -&gt; Monastary

T3: 295 BC

IBT: SweetSpot worker -&gt; Lib; Christianity founded in St. Pete's

T4: 280 BC Found Riverside -&gt; Lib

IBT:

T5: 265 BC Copperfield Missionary -&gt; Missionary; FishNChips granery -&gt; Lib

IBT:

T6: 250 BC Missionary will arrive and convert Burger King next turn, so turn back on the growth.

IBT: We are ranked 4th in the world in regards to culture.

T7: 235 BC I'm moving a warrior out of Copperfield to give MP protection to FishNChips.

IBT:

T8: 220 BC This is wierd, Burger King is refusing to grow. It should have grown last turn

IBT: Copperfield Missionary -&gt; Missionary

T9: 205 BC This is definitely a bug. Burger King refuses to grow. We've now lost 3 turns of size 6 gold :(
I send the Missionary on Automove to FishNChips

IBT: BurgerKing galley -&gt; Monastery

T10: 190 BC a Great Scientist is Born in Burger King He is fortified in town for the team to decide what to do with him. He can discover Philosophy (Taoism is not founded yet, but we're a long way from Liberalism and Free Religon) or become an Academy in Thebes.

I strongly recommend we go for Monarchy after Construction. It is the best way to deal with the Happiness issue atm.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/190BC-CDZ.jpg
I really think someone should look at our save and see what is going on with the Growth in BurgerKing. Something is not right as it's been 45/45 for 3 or 4 turns now :(

[grahamiam]

I sent a PM to Alan.

Also, we may be able to research Constr in 12T instead of 13T by reducing research to 0% this turn, then turning it up to 50% next turn instead of running at 40% till we're done.

[Gyathaar]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
I sent a PM to Alan.

PM about what? if its the growth issue then that is obvious to me what the cause is without even looking at the save.. and should be to anyone who has ever used all govenor options..

[Shabbaman]

Well, I haven't used governors ever [:p] But like I wrote in my turn log, I assume it's set to no growth, it should've been growing to size 6 at the start of my turnset.

[Beam]

Indeed, BK is set at no growth...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2006528105611_bknogrowth.jpg
134.01KB

[Shabbaman]

Thanks for the pointer Beam, at least I learned something new today :)

[socralynnek]

So, ok, what to do with the Scientist:
Taoism is surely nice, if we spread it to all our cities after going after Cathy, it is a nice sum.
But Philo doesn't help us much atm.

Building an academy in our best town is a nice boost for research.

I am unsure, both is good but I think an academy might help us more than another religion, although that can solve our happiness problems too by building more temples.

[grahamiam]

alright, my fault as I never use goveners

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

alright, my fault as I never use goveners


I propose we do not use them in the SGOTM as well. Although Firaxis did a pretty good job imo it still is not optimal for this kind of play. More suited for on-line games.

Building an acadamy is a very valid option cause it will have long lasting appeal.

[BCLG100]

Id build the acadamy, i know im not playing but i can still chat along cant i?, you already have the religion you dont NEED another one whereas the acadamy will help for the rest of the game.

[Samson]

I reakon the accademy. It would give us about 5 beakers per turn ATM, about an extra 20% on our reaserch. We do not need taoism (you see we will have Christianity soon).

Make sure you taje BK off avoid growth!!!

[socralynnek]

We don't own that religion yet (btw, comments from lurkers are very welcome)

But we'll go after Cathy somewhat soon.

[socralynnek]

Downloaded the save, will play now and build that academy!

[socralynnek]

190 BC (0) - Set avoid growth in BK off.
Move Scientist to Thebes.
Make binary research for my turns.

175 BC (1) - Build academy in Thebes.

160 BC (2) - Gandhi says hello (without seeing a unit)
I guess it is because Judaism has spread in Riverside and Gandhi is the one who has the holy city and has it as a state religion.
We can't declare war so I guess that is the one we have locked peace with.

So, long term thinking : wiping off Cathy and then spread Judaism and convert to please Gandhi.
Just an idea.

We could give CoL to Gandhi, he could give IW&Hunting but won't give Poly, Alpha and Calendar.
He doesn't have Curr, no money trade.
He has 6 cities and his civics are: UnivSuffrage(! -&gt; Pyramids), Barbarism,Slavery, Decentralization, Organized Religion

I give him Horse (which we won't need in the next 10 turns) for Silks.

145 BC (3) - Argh, when I looked at a War Chariot, there was nothing like Requires Horse, but now that we don't have it, it says that it is required.
We can build something else...
Thebes is building a Settler for getting Silver into our hands.

85 BC (7) - Using the whip in BK.

70 BC (8) - Gandhi asks for CoL, decline.
Cathy wants to give Sugar for Fish. Make that deal, when we have a Plantation of our own, we can cancel it.

55 BC (9) - Construction is done. Set research to 0% until the end of my turns, then the team can decide if we go for Alpha, IW (which we could trade), Curr, Monarchy...

I think BK should be building a Settler after the next growth, or it should go for GP.

40 BC (10) - We can trade CoL and Constr to Gandhi, still he only gives Hunting and IW. Next one can decide if we make one of those two deals.
All our cities have Hinduism.
We should build a few more units (2-3 cats, maybe 2 Swords if we make that deal and have iron) and then go get Cathy.
Or we could first research Alphabet and trade techs with her before, at least she has Calendar, but if she doesn't have contact with anyone else, she won't trade anyway.

[Samson]

I think we should go for Monarchy. We can keep our pop growing without the hard limit on city size.

There is some value in not getting hunting, 'cos it stops us building wariors I think, and wariors are good for MP. Do we have any need of it?

[socralynnek]

If we indeed as you suggest go for Monarchy, then you must be thinking of Hereditary Rule.
Then warriors for MP are good otherwise we don't need them because only one unit per city is then needed.

OTOH, we 'll then come to the point where health limits our growth.

[Beam]

Good to have contact with another AI! [dance]

I guess we have contact with Gandhi because Judaism has been spread, not the other way around. Gandhi can see Riverside now which is "contact" imo.

We have 2 quality techs to trade so care is needed. IW is interesting because of Iron &gt; Sword but only if we have Iron so some sort of gamble. Also for Junglechop which is only needed once we are in Russia.

In Diplo we are +5/-3 with Gandhi, the -3 because of Religion. Afaik the more happy a civ is with you the more likely they want to trade techs. So converting to Judaism would make it more likely we can trade the other techs as well. Which has a penalty cause cities without the religion loose a happ. Imo in the long run having the same reli as our pet civ is the way to go, the only city that can spread Judaism is Riverside which would need a Jewish Monastary. Short in hammers that would mean a lot of whips to build both the Mon and the Misses.

We are first in pop, mgf and crops. Imvho good but GNP still sux big time. Besides not a single scientist is used in cities where a lib is build. BK for example is fat on food and hammers, growing like hell and crashbuilding a Coll but only contributing a pathetic 3 net commerce.
Growing to size 9 and completing the Coll can be better balanced imo. Fish'n chips and Thebes are working FPs without a cottage. Copperfield is another hammerheaven but commerce nightmare. Removing a couple of hammers and adding some coastal tiles will only have a moderate effect on production and allows a scientist plus +1 in size (-1 health is no issue) and commerce.

Heriditary rule and warriors is a great combo imo!

To summirize I'm a worried about the commerce and resulting research. Overall me thinks we do a good job!

[grahamiam]

Samson -&gt; UP
bedhead -&gt; on deck
Beam
barbu
Shabbaman
grahamiam
socralynnek

I'm too beat tonight to cutnpaste to CFC. Could someone else take care of that in the morning? Thanks :)

[Beam]

Done

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

Good to have contact with another AI! [dance]

I guess we have contact with Gandhi because Judaism has been spread, not the other way around. Gandhi can see Riverside now which is "contact" imo.
The question is where is Gandi? He could be beyond newfoundland, but the fact that riverside caught Judaism may indicate he is over to the East (you can see coast over there). Can religion cross ocean before optics?
quote:Originally posted by Beam

We have 2 quality techs to trade so care is needed. IW is interesting because of Iron &gt; Sword but only if we have Iron so some sort of gamble. Also for Junglechop which is only needed once we are in Russia.
We could swop either CoL or Construction for IW and hunting. IW would be nice, for Iron (probably get some extra sheilds somewhere), swordsmen and chopping jungle (the sugar by sweet spot would probably be worth using, with a cottage).
quote:Originally posted by Beam

In Diplo we are +5/-3 with Gandhi, the -3 because of Religion. Afaik the more happy a civ is with you the more likely they want to trade techs. So converting to Judaism would make it more likely we can trade the other techs as well. Which has a penalty cause cities without the religion loose a happ. Imo in the long run having the same reli as our pet civ is the way to go, the only city that can spread Judaism is Riverside which would need a Jewish Monastary. Short in hammers that would mean a lot of whips to build both the Mon and the Misses.
All the techs he will not trade are "We do not want to start trading this yet", so I do not think we need to switch ATM. I would say we should stay with Hinduism for the miute, perhaps think about changing later.
quote:Originally posted by Beam

We are first in pop, mgf and crops. Imvho good but GNP still sux big time. Besides not a single scientist is used in cities where a lib is build. BK for example is fat on food and hammers, growing like hell and crashbuilding a Coll but only contributing a pathetic 3 net commerce.
Growing to size 9 and completing the Coll can be better balanced imo. Fish'n chips and Thebes are working FPs without a cottage. Copperfield is another hammerheaven but commerce nightmare. Removing a couple of hammers and adding some coastal tiles will only have a moderate effect on production and allows a scientist plus +1 in size (-1 health is no issue) and commerce.
We are breaking even at around 48% science. Not bad at all IMNSHO. Expansion is the priority I reakon.

I shall get 1 or 2 scientists working in BK, but we need to decide what to reaserch. We do not have happiness problems ATM, but we will (like when we get horsies back again). I reakon Monarcy, and hope to be able to trade Alphabet.
quote:Originally posted by Beam

Heriditary rule and warriors is a great combo imo!

To summirize I'm a worried about the commerce and resulting research. Overall me thinks we do a good job!

I shall play at some point before 5 BST, and would like input on wherether and what to trade, and what to reaserch.

I would say CoL for IW, possibly take Hunting but we will not be able to build wariors.
Reaserch Monachy.

[Samson]

OK, I shall play now (so this is a got it).

I am going to trade CoL for IW only.
I shall start work on Monarchy.

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

This might help against blocked sites at work : http://www.peacefire.org/


[lol]

Either that site is down atm, or they blocked that one too [banned]

[Samson]

PFC - Put 2 scientists in BK. Move boats towards Cathy. Change reaserch to Monarchy (11 turns @ 50%).

IBT - Gandi golden age ended! Wow he was quick to 3 GP (1 for shrine). Cathy Adopts HR, at least we should get a discount on Monarchy. BK grows. I put a priest to work there.

25 BC (1) - Workers start cottage near Riverside. One in west starts cotage for Westside, other one heads East (that is were the work is needed).

IBT - Settler done. Start on settler? Catapult done in CF, start on catpult.

10 BC (2) - Worker to FP for cottage for theebs. Settler towards Clam Chowder.

IBT - I forgot to do the trade. However Gandi comes to me to offer Calender for CoL. He also has Monarchy. I decide we have to have Calender. I decide against the IW trade. A forest grows near theebs.

5 AD (3) - Found Clam Chowder, starts on granery. Costs us 6 extra, makes 2 (3 once it gets trade route).

IBT - Kong Maio built.

20 AD (4) - NADA

IBT - Library done in Westbank, start on Axeman.

35 AC (5) - 2 workers start cottage between Riverside and FnC.

IBT - Cataput finishes in CF, start on Catapult.

50 AD (6) - NADA

65 AD (7) - After much deliberation, I move a worker onto a forest for Westbank, I want to chop a bit of milatry.

IBT - Cathy offers open borders, yeah right. Another forest grows near CF. BK finishes Colloseum and starts courthouse. I change it to workboat (we need 2).

80 AD (8) - Worker starts chop, another starts cottage for CC.

IBT - Catapult finishes in CF, Start on 1 more.

95 AD (9) - 2 workers start another cottage between Riverside and FnC.

IBT - Monarchy finishes. Institute Hereditry rule. Start on Currancy (Up for discusion). Axeman finishes in Westside, start on axeman (will finish with chop in 3).

110 AD (10) - Axeman towards Cathy.

Decisions -

What to reaserch? I like currancy, gives us 1 extra trade route (8 gpt) and markets for the extra gold that we are likely to need when we take russia (and an extra happiness for the silks if we get then back after we declaire war).

Trade techs? We could get Poly, Hunting and IW from Gandi for construction. Gandi will not trade Alphabet or HBR.

In 2 turns we could move 4 catapults, 3 axemen and 3 War chariots into Cathys teretory. Do we want to? I say yes!!

Save at http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/CDZ_SG001_AD0110_01.Civ4SavedGame

BTW, have you tried http://anonymouse.org/

[Shabbaman]

That forest grew next to the forest that's already there I assume? Could anyone explain briefly what conditions you need for forest growth?
I'm OK with currency, but marketplaces are expensive. I don't have civ4/reference chart here, but if we switch to hereditary rule, can we still use the whip then?

BTW, it might seem I'm eager to use the whip, but I never use the whip in my usual games so it's more that I don't know a thing about it and am very curious.

P.S. Anonymouse works, it's really slow though. I'm under the impression that the sites I can't visit aren't really blocked, but that the server/virus scanner here has some issues with the sites in question. Internet browsing is ehm, "peculiar" here anyway. The reason I think they're not seriously blocked is that I know that some gambling sites (and probably pr0n as well) is really blocked, and that you get a message saying that if you have a problem with the site in question to be blocked, that you may write a letter in triplicate to the secretary-general.

Heh.

Besides, very, very, very occasionally the sites do work, as in, twice the past year.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

That forest grew next to the forest that's already there I assume? Could anyone explain briefly what conditions you need for forest growth?
I'm OK with currency, but marketplaces are expensive. I don't have civ4/reference chart here, but if we switch to hereditary rule, can we still use the whip then?

BTW, it might seem I'm eager to use the whip, but I never use the whip in my usual games so it's more that I don't know a thing about it and am very curious.

HR is the Govenment civic, Salvery is the labour civic, so we can still whip. Yeah they are expensive, but make a big difference when we have to have our tax rate up to ~80% which I tend to get in my games (possibly not this one though as our GNP is much better than I normally have).

Along these lines, if we could get open borders with Gandi we may get some foregn trade routes and a bit more money. They MAY be broken if we make war with Cathy, but may not if Gandi is not involved.

No idea how forest growth works. It is always next to an existing forest.

[socralynnek]

Forest growth: On an empty tile (i.e. without improvements) a forest can grow if it is next to a forest. More forests nearby means a higher chance. And I think the climate settings influence the chance.

Currency seems a good idea. We need markets, cause it also gives happiness.

When we got rid of Cathy we got two holy cities which could give us a nice sum of money for our research.

[grahamiam]

I'm fine with Currency next. After that, we should go towards Optics to get the caravels out. Oh, and let's smash cathy [hammer]

[Beam]

Currency &gt; Optics fine with me. Although I posted earlier on to time the attack later most of the reasons for that are gone (contact with other AI and we can settle Silverado in the upcoming turnset). So fire at will! [uglyham]

The units in CF are not promoted yet. We could promote one (like WC &gt; Combat 1), move it on the jungle and make the promotions based on what is in St. P? A WC with retreat could be usefull to soften the stack if there are strong units with a chance of survival.

[Samson]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

The units in CF are not promoted yet. We could promote one (like WC &gt; Combat 1), move it on the jungle and make the promotions based on what is in St. P? A WC with retreat could be usefull to soften the stack if there are strong units with a chance of survival.

I would not promote any until we need the promotions (you know you can promote it when it has no moves left). Flanking is pretty good for WC's, esp. when they get the second one (&gt;50% withdrawl). I would give most of the axemen City Raider.

Re. Movement, I would get Open borders first, move into her teritory with a WC, then only if the first city looks takable should we declaire war. Then we can move the 1 move units into her teritory. 1 turn of bombardment, then we should be able to bombard 3 times (zero defence bonus) and attack with 1 cat.

Looks like Bed Head gets the first exciting turns. I shall have to wait till the next war I suspect. :(

Any more thoughts about trade? The more I think about it I would like to get IW and Poly, Gandi may get Construction any time. Not sure about hunting, while we are at war wariors are a usless, and after war we are likely to have a fair few units so we may not need more.