View Full Version : 4x4 CIV *Spoiler*
Yay, finally opened up a spoiler thread again, the age of MP civ4 has started, but I fear it might not go as well as my civ3 adventures did.
As I have been playing the beta version for all this time until recently, the game has changed big time for me and I need to get (re)acquainted with some features that are simply totally new to me.
Taking screenshots was one of those, I haven't been able to take some really great shots as deskscan isn't functioning for me with this version, so I'll hope you all can cope with some poor quality shooting...
Having said that, I'm playing Mali in this 4x4, and the first few turns have been extremely eventful already. I forgot to take a pic of the start or my capital, but you can piece it together on the other shots... what's important is that 2 huts were nearby, I popped one with the starting warrior for fishing [dance], and the other was popped by cultural expansion resulting in great maps of the surroundings. Unfortunately, the land isn't very fertile (perhaps that changed too though in the retail version ;)), meaning the agri trait will be wasted somewhat due to need of farms, but it's still a pretty useful trait all-in-all, and spiritual isn't useless either of course.
Enough of the talking, here are those maps I received showing the surroundings (north and south of the capital):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200642805329_malilandnoord.jpg
42.46*KB
edit: removed pic for better scaling/readability
As said, not a lot of growth potential though the capital itself has great capabilities with lots of rivers, and some flood plains and hills. Also, on F11 I was doing okay with utilizing just a forest (2f1h), so it seems there aren't that much really good starting locs around anyway.
But, as you might see if you are very observant, there was already another border to be spotted, and my warrior was heading straight towards it... And yes, it turned out Caesar was only a tile or 10 away from Timbuktu, not a great neighbour unforuntately, but it might be he can be contained and taken care of early on. He's a little in front in score, but walking past his borders, it seems there might be a great opportunity presenting itself:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200642805815_romans.jpg
35.38*KB
Aha! Was it a rat I saw? No, but it is a roman worker, and if they have mining it is quite possible it aims to mine the gems nearby... if it does, I'm seriously thinking of grabbing it and risking war, since I can take a great defensive stance on the hills crippling Caesar even further, as it seems he is boxed in a bit (coast in the south, as there is no fresh water access to the highlighted tile in the pic). There are some risks, but the advantage of a really early worker are not to be scoffed at imho. We'll see how it turns out...
Talking of workers... even though I started with mining, I did not pick BW straight away as I want to research animal husbandry and pottery as well to capitalize on the fact that I started with the wheel and pigs nearby, and to utilize my financial trait with a possible cottage on a flood plain. Not sure if this is the best idea especially with Caesar so close, but I never gamble on early copper, and researching BW just would have taken too much time stalling city development. All imho of course, I'm not just a really heavy chopper (or should that be gunship?), could be I'm lagging already on the rest by not doing BW, but these choices are what make Civ4 so interesting I suppose. :)
More to follow as the game progresses, of course.
digger760
28-04-2006, 12:39
hey..great to see you back in the spoiler game Kemal. I see you mentioned agri trait..but i think yo meant Financial..so your still on Civ3 mode!
Your Capital appears to be on pretty good spot but after that..lots of plains:(
Is this a man-made map? the map looks to be the beggings of a doughnut shape
[lol], erm well that was just to see if you guys were paying attention eh? Indeed I did mean financial, thanks for noticing! I was thinking of "powerful trait" when writing apparently, and due to my excessive civ3 years I put down agri on automatic.
The map was done by akots, but iirc he didn't edit it and it should be a random continents map, but akots should have more details on that (including things he might not want to share with us players, perhaps). {:)]
Tubby Rower
28-04-2006, 13:15
Kemal, I'm not sure if you know this but when you hit Print Screen, Civ4 places a JPG (or whatever you have default in the ini file) in the My games/civ 4/screenshots folder. it looks like you are doing the civ3 version of screenshots and I thought that I'd suggest that.
Thanks, I did figure that out but the screenshots placed are too big for my reading comfort, so I put them in paint and then use deskscan to grab the relevant parts of the shot... I know I'm pretty weird, but I don't know how else to crop the images in such away that the quality isn't reduced big time. [crazyeye]
Thanks for the tip though, I was used to another screenshot shorcut at first indeed.
Tubby Rower
28-04-2006, 14:12
well FWIW, I think that there is a value in the ini file on the size of the screenshots. You can also use PSP to resample (not resize) the screen shot. Re-sizing just eliminates pixels where re-sample actually re-calculates the pixel values based off of the current pixels. It also helps if the grid is turned on since the civ4 graphics blend well into each other and sometimes its hard to tell where the hill tile stops.
btw, what are the traits of the Mali? I know they are Financial, but what is the other one?
Spiritual. :)
I only have paint to work on pictures, and that doesn't do that much good of course. I'll check the ini. file though, thanks.
Pastorius
28-04-2006, 14:34
I find Irfanview to be superior to paint, and less spacious than PSP or Photoshop.
Resizing shots is easy with Irfanview (unless I spell it incorrectly, in which case it is difficult,since you might not find it using google)
Despite all the splendid advise, Kemal the Conservative still refuses to utilize all these free tools and stubbornly continues with his ugly paintjobs, hope you all don't mind too much...
So, picking up from where we left last time, the notion of having an enemy AI so close to the gates of Timbuktu did not at all trigger any cautious thoughts with the Malinese government, with the first thought popping up in evil Kemsa Mumal's head during the traditional consumation of the "first contacted Caesar" salad being "how can I obtain your worker ASAP?"
Casually, but not being overcausal about it, the Malinese warrior lurked at the Roman border until the inevitable occured:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20065923382_ahathereyouare.jpg
33.31KB
Playing tip 2: never put an unguarded worker in front of Kemsa Mumal's forces this early in the game.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200659233946_fireatwillcommander.jpg
26.77KB
Note that this choice in reality wasn;t as easy as I am describing here, AI at monarch starts with archery and 4 units, but from what I've experienced in earlier versions, the AI usually overdefends the capital. And an early worker was too good a possibility to let pass, so:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200659234151_theydie.jpg
45.73KB
And there you have it, 3 archers in the capital. The mission now was to get the worker home safely, it would be accompanied by their enslavers at first until a second warrior from Timbuktu heading south could take over while clearing fog in advance to prevent barbs from spawning. Next turn brought some additional headaches, as Caesar sent an archer in hot pursuit of my newly claimed prize:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200659234434_inpursuitofthedeathangel.jpg
38.79KB
Still no problems, once the path was safe, the workers 2 move range would see it outrun the archer, while the warrior would then split off and lead the roman archer away from the Malinese borders into never-neverland in the south.
Unfortunately, it seemed that Kemsa Mumal isn't the only one who sees (ex)-Roman workers as a tasty snack :(:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200659234657_abeartherewasabearabear.jpg
42.29KB
Horrible. I was prepared to combat panthers or wolfs - and maybe even a lion on a forested hill- with my warrior, but a bear is simply too big an enemy, almost as big as that hugely annoying archer that was still fresh on my trail. Since running to the south wasn't much of an option to me with the worker (it won't be long before real barbs will appear, plus with a little misfortune outrunning and circumventing 2 units might prove impossible), and considering that my 2nd warrior was close to getting the worker in viewing range in the north, the final decision was to split up and hope for the best. The only good thing was that Caesar's archer might be in for a good surprise if he'd follow my steps again.
Thankfully, the worker did not encounter another animal during the 2 turns it was on it's own, and Caesar's archer and the bear have both vanished in the meantime.... that would be too good to be true I suppose, but at least they aren't anywhere near my borders yet.
So as it stands, I have myself a worker near my capital in 3400 BC and have nearly completed my 2nd warrior while growing to size 3. A settler will be the designated project next, though I'm uncertain whether I'll grow to size 4 first... after all neglecting BW in favour of AH makes settler construction a bit more complicated.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200659235729_capital3400.jpg
53.67KB
And on a small minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200659235753_miniminimap3400.jpg
2.56KB
Note that the minimap includes a large portion of discovered ocean tiles. I found maps from a hut, though in hindsight I would have much rather learnt the technology the villagers used to obtain such map knowledge. ;)
More to follow as the game progresses...
A tiny update to report that the gamble paid off well in the end.... I managed to make peace with Caesar 2 turns after the previous update, and have now switched from warrior to settler in the capital. 17 turns is an awful long time, but until I have forest chops available, there is no way to speed things up, the land is too rough to let Timbuktu grow further in size and get a real profit from it.
Btw, 7(!) turns to farm a floodplain is an awful long time. [sad]
IIRC, flood plains are treated like desert for worker jobs and these jobs take an extra time compared to other normal tiles.
I see, thanks... I did expect the job to take longer than expected, but really no more than 5 compared to the regular 4. Kinda messes up my pig-stop at the hills W-SW since I will research Animal Husbandry in 5.
Love to do an update again some time, but still struggling with the screenshotsize... is Irfanview suggested by Paal still the best way to go, or do people here use other methods? (I still only have Paint, and wasn't able to succesfully change the screenshotsize in the .ini).
Things aren't looking very good btw in the game for the long term as it seems some things work out as I feared.... :(
Socrates
24-10-2006, 15:27
I haven't used Paint for some 1.5 year now. I'm using a nice free (as in beer, can't remember if as in speech) program called PhotoFiltre, developed by a Frenchie, which you can easily find on the Net. Since the auto-saving of screenshots in Civ4 seems unstable (some ingame screens seem to forget to save the image), this is what I do :
- press PrintScreen ;
- alt-tab to PhototFiltre ;
- paste image ;
- resize it to 800*600 for forum purpose ;
- save it, with a 90% jpg quality ;
- alt-tab back to Civ4.
Works wonders as long as you're no later than the Renaissance or on a small map, otherwise alt-tabbing in full screen takes an awful amount of time. Alt-tabbing in window mode should be OK, it seems. I never seem to have images weighing more than 200k, but if that happens, a simple step down in the jpg quality does the job.
Hope this helps.
i just print screen and then upload that straight from the civ4 screenshots thing, naturally this makes them a bit bigger but everybody likes to see lots :D
Okay, time to bring you up to speed on Mali and the surrounding empires. I will have to skip some of the less fundamental things that have happened otherwise I'd have to write a 30 page essay, considering that since the last time I posted there was just little Timbuktu, whereas now there are glorious empires sprawling all over the map (all empires are glorious of course.. some are just more glorious than others).
Starting off, here's an overview of what each empire looks like atm. You might notice some things right off the bat, but more on everything later, for now it is just pics:
1:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025103350_KumbiGao.JPG
97.57KB
2:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025103413_DjenneTimbuktu.JPG
100.08KB
3:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025103427_RomeAntium.JPG
79.97KB
4:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025103441_StratstadCumae.JPG
68.79KB
5:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025103530_CustaCityKarakorum.JPG
67.22KB
6:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025103546_Tenochtitlan.JPG
64.89KB
As for a quick recap on some of the major events that have happened in the past (now at 250BC):
- My war with Rome wasn't the only war that has taken place so far. Matrix refused to give writing to Montezuma, which was not a good idea it turned out.
Monty of course declared war, and somehow, somewhere [mischief] they managed to obtain Iron Working, and jags started pouring Matrix's way. Even though they are 1 strength short of swords, their non-resource advantage plus combat 1 meant Matrix was always fighting a defensive war here.
He gained nothing from the war in the end, except that both suffered a huge setback in development, which after Caesar's shenanigans with me early on in the game resulted in Mali being the most advanced and developed nation in this part of the world.
- With grs most likely having grabbed all 3 early religions, one of the key projects for Kemsa Mumal was to get at least one religion for himself. Not only for the happiness bonus or a possible shrine, but more importantly for the production bonus from organized religion.
Therefore, it was decided that, especially considering my advantage with the early worker, Timbuktu would be committed to the Oracle fairly early on in the game, to be able to grab Confucianism via Code of Laws. Not a very expensive tech to get using the oracle indeed. However, it also denied the Oracle to others, and I might get a great prophet in the future, so I'm happy with it nonetheless.
It turned out that someone else (I thought Darkness first because of scoring values, but it must be grs now considering latest developments) built the Stonehenge at the same time, obviously grs was aiming for the shrine there.
- Finally, some unsettling stuff in the latest turn which leads me to believe I might be going down despite the current state of my empire, which is passable/solid.
Between 400 and 325 BC (IIRC), 3 great people have been born on the other continent. First was a great scientist, then a turn later Homer appeared (the Music artist), then another turn later a great prophet was born and the Mahabodhi built.
Well, easy explanations you might say, Darkness uses library-specialists and gets great scientist, might use it for music (or created academy and invented Music himself) and get Homer next turn, which in turn invented something else himself. Grs obtains prophet a turn later from Stonehenge and creates Mahabodhi, case closed.
True, but the unsettling thing is that during these 4 turns, the scores of both grs and Darkness skyrocketed massively, with my hundred point lead over grs and even larger lead over Darkness being reduced to almost zero in a matter of a few turns...
This of course feeds speculation that grs and Darkness might have been sharing their techs freely, and could be on their way on a continent vs continent battle.
So what is the problem Kemsa, you have a human ally too!
Well yes, but that human ally is Matrix, and he is - with all due respect - *very* weak due to his scuffle with Monty, and is not able to provide much - or any - support for a long term research and development plan. That would ultimately lead to a 2v1 vs grs and Darkness, and I know enough about civ4 to understand that this would be an unwinnable situation for the 1, even with superior production and/or technogical advantage.
We'll see how things will turn out, I know from experience (DDPP) that even the most rock-solid alliances start to see cracks once the expansion phase is over and an arms race begins.
In the meantime, I;ve agreed with Matrix that he will be able to buy techs from me at 60% cost, and he will be playing 100% tax from now on. This save him building libs and allows him to focus on markets, since I've basicly given him currency for free to allow him to buy peace with Monty and get some trade routes and markets online. Unfortunately my expenses will grow faster than Matrix's economy I fear, so that source of free money won't be very reliable I fear.
On the other hand, I will be honest and say that I think I have little to fear from Matrix military wise, especially considering the lay of the land near Antium, where a bottleneck can be found. I'm not intending to attack him either btw, too much upkeep cost for too little gains.
Back to the pictures and some more optimism now though:
As can be seen on Pic 3, I've recently engaged the Romans again, and have captured Rome! Since they had connected their iron 3 turns ago in Cumae, I felt the time to strike was now, so I sent my 4 horse archers, 1 axe and 1 skirmisher (ranging between level 2 and 3 in exp) to Rome, and captured the city without losses (some luck, as each horse archer had a 66% chance of winning vs the 3 archers in Rome).
Antium will follow quickly, but there is an adder in the grass here (dutch expression only I suppose). As can be seen on the pics, Caesar, with his gnp of 15 or so, managed to invent Theology first and got the holy city in Cumae. [lol]
While it is a bother that the holy city is in Cumae and therefore out of my reach (I contacted Matrix and said he may have it if he wishes, only means more money for me if he gets the shrine later on), a key point now is to somehow trade or extort theology from Caesar.
Gonna need Matrix help here I fear, as Caesar no like me. Would be a very nice bonus, and I'll give Matrix any techs he needs to get it... but there is a slight problem in the form of that stupid Monty again.
Since Cumae is next to Aztec lands, and I'm in the process of annihilating the Romans from <s>their original soil</s> my soil, a sneak attack with all those vets from the Matrix wars might mean the end for Caesar fast. What a shame that would be... still, I will capture Antium asap, as I think Matrix might want to profit from my war and capture Antium himself now that Rome is broken. (A logical assumption after the ISDG, where I learned from a certain overly vocal team leader that all Dutch people are war profiteers, that's in their blood and they enjoy making profit on behalf of other people's efforts). ;)
Finally, back to domestic builds, you may have noticed I'm also building the Great Library in Timbuktu, after the Oracle. This may cost me my prophet, but the gains are too good not to create it, as I was fortunate enough to get marble nearby (at walata).
Timbuktu will be having a 10 gpp/t output once it is completed, giving me quick access to either a few scientists or a scientist and a prophet at no costs. Still, an even better location for GP would be Rome, the Uber-commerce city with a plethora of food resources available, and a lot of forest still hanging around. Number one candidate to create the National epic and rush a market and lib there, for another 24 gpp/t there in the future.
And once things settle down, I might convert to pacifism and double those figures, if I can convince Matrix to stay out of an unwinnable arms race with me, and the other continent is at galleon range. That's mostly musings for the future though... as it stands I will continue to build up my economy first, get some more workers online now that the war is basicly won, and expand towards some extra stone and corn resources in the east later. Current demograhpics are solid, though the gnp suggests an academy on the other continent (or maybe a few gold resources, as those got to be around on this world somewhere too):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061025111510_Demographs250BC.JPG
75.08KB
On the tech front, I've just researched calendar for some much needed spices and incense, allowing for more pop, with Civil Service being next, and Metal casting coming afterwards. Especially Civil Service will be of great use if Timbuktu gets the Great Lib, and manages to hit size 12 or 13.
As for grs/Darkness... time will tell I suppose.
Pastorius
26-10-2006, 06:28
quote:We'll see how things will turn out, I know from experience (DDPP) that even the most rock-solid alliances start to see cracks once the expansion phase is over and an arms race begins.
Yes, then teh Kemal stabbeth teh Erikk and teh Propain in teh back [evil]
Yay... Guess who missed the Great Library on 1 turn... [cry]
wooops, surely you got quite a bit of gold though?
yeah, 328g... I don't need no stinking 328g, I wanted all those free scientists.
[cry][cry]
[sulk]
The run of bad news continues...
There has been a huge error in my previous spoiler post, where I was raving about grs grabbing stonehenge and a shrine etc. That would have been bad, but the truth is even worse, especially since it has come forward now that the civ building the stonehenge (1200BC) and the mahabodhi (325BC) also has completed the Pyramids in 200 BC.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061027132925_Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
79.9KB
Worst of this all is that it is, in fact, an AI that is doing so, with near certainty Egypt. This due to the fact that all these wonders are located in a city founded in 4000 BC, while our first turn was 3960 BC.
Apparently, they found it necessary to:
- Get buddhism
- Build stonehenge (civilopedia says no priests can be put to work in stonehenge, is that correct? I think I remember otherwise but I never built stonehenge with the current version of civ4)
- Build a temple -> put a priest specialist in it.
- Get 100 GPP for a prophet in 29 turns (average of over 3 GPP/turn since completing stonehenge)
- Start working on Pyramids
- Build mahabodhi for free for grs/darkness to grab
- Build pyramids in 37 turns
- Obviously diregard expansion and military to give all kind of free presents to human players there.
I'm assuming access to stone and a fairly decent production site for their capital is to blame for this disaster, but even then... the AI on matrix/my continent would not have been able to finish a wonder in a thousand turns looking at their growth, production and economic capabilities.
And since grs didn't even build the mahabodhi and still made such progress in score, it fuels the alliance-theory even more.
Maybe I'm regarding things worse than they are atm, but a free Pyramids and Mahabodhi plus a possible cooperation on the other continent makes things look really tough for Mali.
All I can hope is that they won't organize an oversea-attack, since those are extremely costly and inefficient in civ4, and that discord between the two arises rather sooner than later.
Plus, I was wrong on grs and his wonders too, so maybe things are totally different than I present them here. Time will tell I suppose.
In the meantime I've captured Antium losing a level 3 horseman, now having routed them from the lands between me and Matrix permanently. Offensive will stop now, with the axe being on the lookout for any approaching praetorians.
Some latest developments in this game, lots of wonderful things going on here.
We're now at 25 AD, and the Malinese Empire has now a period of increasing prosperity for the past few hundred years. GNP and food output in particular have been on the increase again, which can most easily be illustrated by comparing the 25 AD demographs with the one shown earlier from 250 BC:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2006111214755_Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
75.11KB
One reason in particular for the increase in GNP can be found in the fact that around 50 BC bureaucracy was adopted, so a lot more gold coins and (a few) hammers appeared sticking to all the red tape in Timbuktu, but another factor is a recently completed great project in Djenne:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200611122219_Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG
83.78KB
At only 200 shields, an immediate increase of 13 raw commerce was generated throughout the empire, with atm almost exclusively running domestic trade routes. With the advent of harbours - and more developed foreign empires - that statistic will probably only increase further.
In the meantime, my project of trying to grab the Parthenon failed as Darkness obviously has a source of marble too, as he completed this 400 hammer wonder in the same city only 12 turns after the Lib, averaging 33 hammer/turn. With the top mfg goods producer after me being at 42, I guess the local wildlife around Darkness's capital has suffered badly in recent years.
But, not a big problem as I already had invested 212 hammers in it which are conveniently transformed in 212g, which can be put to splendid use for my money burning research projects. After Civil Service, Metal casting follows in 3, with the long term target now being Optics to start producing caravels, and perhaps later Banking for Mercantilism.
On the diplomatic front things have been quiet, I'm at very good footing with Matrix, and he can buy my techs at a big discount, and some even at a get-now-pay-later base, since his development will boost my development as well. Now only to extort theology from these rotten Romans... Rome and Antium are beginning to feel the effects of war unhappiness as our fighting continues, and especially Rome needs to be transformed into a GP-factory quickly, thus needing rapid growth/extra happiness. It could be I will be pushed into a peace deal soon anyway...
To conclude, christianity unfortunately spread to Monty via Cumae, so now he's starting to get pissed again with me. Last thing I need is even more foreign routes closing... but that's what you always get when having Monty and Caesar on your landmass, the most aggressive AIs available after all.
Will keep you guys informed.
Right, so one turn later cautious Monty closed open borders, and I managed to lose a level 3 horse archer vs a Roman archer. [sad]
Time for another update, we're now at 300 AD, and things have been looking up for Mumal's empire in recent times. Most important issues at the moment concern domestic issues, as Mali has shifted to a full blown buildup of the economy, without losing sight of any long term achievements of course.
Most important asset to the Malinese civilization has been the completion of a great wonder, The Hanging Gardens, in Timbuktu. Even though the Malinese capital, under Civil Service, was the center of economic activity at population 12, and stone was available do double production for the gardens, it was decided in 225 AD to pop rush the last 90 shields for 3 pop points, instead of waiting another 3 turns for completion.
Main reason was of course the lessons learned after the Great Lib debacle several hundred years earlier, missing that on 1 turn. Since the Gardens have a permanent plus immediate effect, it imho makes it one of the most important ancient wonders. With 9 cities at that time, the immediate effect would be +9 citizens around the empire vs 3 being taken away in Timbuktu, one of which would be immediately reassigned due to the Gardens. Seemed like a valid deal to me, so a pop rush it was.
In addition, a great prophet was born only a few years earlier in Timbuktu, constructing the Kong Miao in Djenne for an extra 5gpt, for now.
This is what the empire looks like right now:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2006111715610_300ADnorth.JPG
97.33KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2006111715627_300ADmid.JPG
102.39KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2006111715649_300ADsouth1.JPG
91.5KB
Matrix has been fighting the Romans with some succes, liberating them of the Christian holy city, and sending Caesar to Davy Jones' locker in the process. Theology, unfortunately, died with them.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200611171597_300ADstraland.JPG
78.9KB
A good thing about this all is that Rome and Antium lost all their annoying unhappiness due to yearning to their mother country, so the GPP machine Rome is nearing its final stage.
In the meantime, I've been giving Monty some free stuff I sold to Matrix earlier, but even though he is now at +3 with me, still no open borders to be seen. Still, better than Matrix who, despite sharing the same religion, is now at -3 with Monty. War seems imminent there.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061117151130_300ADAztecs.JPG
77.11KB
Despite the lack of trade routes due to closed borders, GNP has skyrocketed lately, which is shown in the following demograph:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061117151223_300ADdemographs.JPG
75.17KB
The money from sales to Matrix and the failed Great Library is almost gone though, but Optics is almost in the bag, and a caravel will start exploration soon. Philosophy will follow in 3 turns, to enable pacifism and maybe grab Taoism, which can prove to be useful later for free religion.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2006111715147_300ADtechtree.JPG
73.15KB
As for the other continent, grs and Darkness are still very close in score, the gap remains about 80 points, which considering the extreme gap I discovered via the demographs (the no3 has 52 GNP only, food and mfg goods are nearly identical though) reinforces my idea of cooperation there, as it should be impossible for these two civ to research at the same speed with such a gap in GNP it seems to me, but nobody seems to break away with a tech lead there though.
A nice bonus was that Darkness's GP-gambit (using the GL/Parthenon and possibly National Epic) has resulted in the following person to be born:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061117151914_Thespis.JPG
105.09KB
A great Artist, to be sure. Not at all useful imho.
To summarize, some good progress economically, but the strong position of Darkness and grs combined is still reason to remain cautiuous at this point, as diplomacy remains a major factor in civ4.
Hmm, looks like grs just captured Thebes, as it disappeared from the top cities and his score just increased by 150 points. 4 extra wonders for him there, not good. [sad]
Darkness used his artist to culture bomb a size 4 city it seems... not sure what to think of that either.
More to follow later.
We've found him, commander
From the overambitious military advisor of the Malinese empire (he obviously didn't come up with this himself, I suppose some here might recognise the speech's origin..):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061211202444_GRS.jpg
2.89KB
This is GRS, and he's causing the Malinese Empire much grief. His views do not coincide with ours, and that makes him dangerous.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061211202835_grscitylist.jpg
8.32KB
For too many years GRS has maintained a stranglehold on Egypt. It has fallen upon us to liberate these citizens crying out for a better way of life. Overwhelm their cities, and don't leave them standing. Military advisor out.
Hmm, right, back to Kemsa Mumal again:
We're now in the year 620 AD and a brave caravel made it over the ocean to meet the Inca, which are led by grs. The initial diploscreen came up as this:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061211203245_grsfulldiplods.jpg
44.3KB
A lot of info here, most striking of course being that he is quite advanced, though of course most of these techs are side-techs or low budget techs such as music and construction. Paper though, is directly on the route to Liberalism which is his likely target I suppose, especially if his companion (I don't doubt shared research has been the key to his technological status) Darkness is researching/has already researched Philosophy. His impressive looting of the Egyptian vaults also spells bad news for the Liberalism run.
As the mil advisor pointed out, Egypt must be nearly wiped out, since besides his 5 own cities grs also owns 4 Egyptian ones, including Thebes (already known of course), so there must be room for improvement there as well. Leaves me wondering about Darkness's motives, but of course I don't really know anything for sure yet as I'm still to meet him.
There is also good news though:
firstly, grs has not a single resource I have it seems, while the list of resources he has to offer me is also not very large. Mostly they are happiness resources, so it might be healthiness could pose a problem and start capping his growth a bit.
Secondly, the 5 pictograms above the chat window give reason for a smile: Hereditary rule, Bureaucracy, Tribalism, Decentralization, Paganism.
So despite owning the Pyramids (giving access to for example police state or representation) happiness seems to be such an issue that hereditary rule is needed, which is good as it wastes the Pyramids this way. Better still, for some reason grs still clings to Tribalism and Paganism instead of slavery and organized religion, despite having founded the hinduism religion himself (and that being his state religion). Since he is not spiritual, it seems logical to assume he never has adopted either one of those ever, and should he want to do so now, he faces a more severe penalty than he would have ages ago. Lets hope he stays in these civics for some time. :)
In any case, I'm not going to sign open borders with him, since he will profit from my trade routes more than I will of his, and my caravel can travel through borders anyway, nor will I trade resources since I don't need anymore myself atm. I'm hoping I might find the Americans or a fleeing Egyptian somewhere along the coast, which might open trade possibilities for a tech such as construction, as well as a world map perhaps later on.
In the meantime, some good news on the GP front:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20061211204826_scientist.jpg
2.42KB
Even though I'm struggling for commerce/beakers on my exceptionally dry lands (bad for cottages) and an academy in Timbuktu is badly needed, this fellow (a scientist) might play a crucial role in the race for Liberalism, and I might be tempted to waste him on Education instead. Will depend on the coming turns, so I'll keep you posted.
very interesting read so far kemal :)
digger760
12-12-2006, 17:44
yet another nice write up Kemal [goodjob]
BURN BABY, BURN!!!
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125142849_BurnbabyBurn.JPG
74.93KB
What's the Big Picture?
So, and there we are again, after many weeks, with an update to the 4x4 civ4 spoiler... and a *lot* has happened, and the game is turning into one of the most interesting as well as challenging civ4 games I have ever played. Prepare for a very graphicly intensive spoiler post ahead, as I'll try to bring you all up to date on the intricities this game has to offer.
1.1
DARKGRSS FALLS ACROSS THE LANDS...
First, lets start off with the current diplomatic snakepit this game has turned into.. last time I posted, I had just met grs, and both his technological development as well as several other factors indicated that a close cooperation with darkness was ongoing.
Only a few turns later, my other exploring caravel, coming in from the west, first met the Americans (more on them later) and shortly after, darkness himself.
Both Darkness and grs were evenly developed in technological sense, and both their empires were massively blended together on their borders, with several cities bordering the others border, in principle making for difficult to defend borders, but also a good omen of these two not perceiving any military threats from each other whatsoever. (The world map can be viewed later in this post).
Adding to this the fact that each time grs left the turn unplayed for 10 days, I had to give a wakeup-call in the open thread, whereas when I had it for 2 days, darkness came along asking where it was and when it will be played, a clear indication about how well these guys knew of each others whereabouts and plans in this game, apparently.
With all this in mind, I decided I'd ask darkness for a small chat, to try and get them to confirm this situation, and see how the cards lay on the table. I'll post a part of this chat log here for the dutch to read themselves, for non-dutch speakers, I've highlighted and translated the most staggering part of the chat, which imvho contains some, hmm.... opinions quite contrary to my own regarding the gameplay in civ4. Here it is:
quote:
Marcel zegt:
Hi!
Marcel zegt:
Je stond al in m'n MSN
Kemal zegt:
he hoi, zag je niet online komen...
Marcel zegt:
nu net
Kemal zegt:
toch wel? nou des te beter zullen we maar zeggen
Kemal zegt:
ik ging zo net de 4x4 spelen, dus dat komt goed uit
Marcel zegt:
OK
Marcel zegt:
Waar wou je het over hebben?
Kemal zegt:
nou, ik had zo eens rondgekeken nu we contact hadden gemaakt, en vroeg me af of je misschien in de markt ben voor wat deals...
Kemal zegt:
het lijkt me duidelijk dat je er al een aantal hebt, of in ieder geval 1 flinke dus
Marcel zegt:
Ik zeg nooit meteen "nee" tegen deals. Wat had je in gedachten?
Marcel zegt:
Idd heb ik goede contacten op m'n eigen continent
Kemal zegt:
dat zag ik idd. met name met grs lijken de contacten.. innig, zullen we maar zeggen, toch?
Marcel zegt:
grs is een hele aardige gozer hoor...
Kemal zegt:
voordat we verder over deals kunnen praten lijkt het me ook zinnig als ik de volgende vraag stel: is die samenwerking vooral gericht tegen mij, i.e. is de doelstelling van je om hier een 2x1x1 van te maken, of spelen jullie in principe wel ieder voor zich?
want afhankelijk van dat antwoord kunnen we verder praten, lijkt me
Marcel zegt:
Da's een hele duidelijke vraag.... Als ik hier namelijk geen antwoord op geef, dan weet jij in principe net zoveel als dat ik ja of nee zeg... Dan kun je dat wel beredeneren.
Marcel zegt:
grs en ik hebben nog geen verregaande toekomstvisie. Wel hebben wij een hele duidelijke samenwerking die ons zeer goed bevalt. Deze samenwerking is zo dat er geen aparte deals tussen jou en mij kunnen zijn zonder dat ik eerst met grs overleg gepleegd heb.
Highlighted by me, for non dutch readers: I here ask darkness outright - before we become tangled into diplomatic negotiations -whether his cooperation is meant to turn the game into a 2x1x1 vs me and Matrix, or whether they still play as an empire individually.
Darkness owns up, and informs me that they have a very close cooperation, where no diplo with me can be done by either side without the other party having had a say in it. (I.e., as far as diplo with the outside world is concerned, they can be seen as a single empire). On the other hand, he indicates they have no clear plans for the future of their empire, which of course is something I'd be interested to learn more about...
quote:
Marcel zegt:
Dat wil echter niet zeggen dat jij meteen de vijand ben, maar op dit moment zijn grs en ik zeer goede bondgenoten en ik ben niet bereid om daar buitenom te gaan (=zonder zijn medeweten deals maken met andere human players)
Kemal zegt:
kijk, das een eerlijk antwoord en dat kan ik wel waarderen: jullie spreken dus met een mond, want ik weet natuurlijk genoeg van het spel om te zien dat jullie samenwerking wel zover gaat dat er eigenlijk sprake is van 1 civ met 2 palaces.
Marcel zegt:
Kemal zegt:
maar ik vraag me af, in dat bondgenootschap, hoe zie je jouw rol dan met betrekking tot het uiteindelijke einddoel van het spel, i.e. winnen?
Marcel zegt:
spacerace?
Kemal zegt:
als je jullie civs naast elkaar legt, en jullie huidige land en het potentieel daarvan vergelijkt... denk je serieus dat dat een optie is dan?
Marcel zegt:
op dit moment nog niet, maar daar komt "binnenkort" verandering in
Kemal zegt:
ik zal je vertellen hoe ik de situatie zie: het is natuurlijk onmogelijk om met een civ tegen 2 (financials, nota bene) op te boksen, dus wanneer jullie op deze voet doorgaan, gaat een van jullie 2 waarschijnlijk winnen... met spacerace wellicht
With the knowledge of their cooperation confirmed, I ask how he sees the future for himself with regard to winning the game. Since if they continue this diplomatic path, I tell him that in my opionon one of them should probably end up as victor via a space race... and comparing both the lay of the lands and the demographics in this game, clearly grs is running away from darkness in productivity/pop/land mass with an alarming rate.
Darkness agrees on the space race as the only really viable alternative, as well as grs being far ahead atm, but claims he can turns things to his advantage as he plans to claim american lands "soon".
A hollow remark imho, when looking at the current power bars, where America - with feudalism/longbowmen - is well ahead of everyone, especially darkness. Maybe grs should help him with it, that might be the idea..
quote:
Marcel zegt:
Ja, of jij moet een deal met matrix maken en er het beste van hopen
Kemal zegt:
zoals het land en de f11 nu ligt, en met de situatie die jij schetst over de samenwerking... dan zie ik daar maar een winnaar komen, want grs loopt toch echt steeds verder weg van je qua mfg/gnp en land area
Kemal zegt:
hehe, punt 1: is matrix daarvoor in de markt, punt 2 ben ik daarvoor in de markt... ik zie het spel toch echt als een 1x1x1x1 namelijk, maar goed
Kemal zegt:
bovendien... ik hoef je waarschijnlijk, gezien de score, niet uit te leggen dat matrix niet echt supra draait he?
Marcel zegt:
weet ik. Maar daar kan ik op dit moment niets aan het veranderen, totdat ik iets aan America heb gedaan.
Marcel zegt:
Matrix is nou niet echt een geweldige bondgenoot, nee. Daar heb ik zelf ook meet te maken in de "rock on" pbem
Kemal zegt:
het draait me momenteel ook niet om het bespreken van matrix' kwaliteiten in civ4, moet ik zeggen
Kemal zegt:
maar goed, ik begrijp dus goed dat jullie het land in 2 hebben gedeeld, en samenwerken tot aan de space race, althans dat is jouw visie.
Kemal zegt:
die jij hoopt te winnen
Marcel zegt:
yep
Marcel zegt:
Of dat lukt is een heel ander verhaal, maar ik heb een deal met grs en die ben ik niet bereid te verbreken.
Kemal zegt:
ook niet als dat je winstkansen zou vergroten?
Marcel zegt:
Nee. Ik heb een deal gesloten en daar hou ik me aan.
Kemal zegt:
in principe heb je dus 50% van je medespelers buitengesloten qua diplomacy nadat je ergens na 20 turns een deal hebt gesloten met grs, en vice versa...
Marcel zegt:
Daar komt het nu wel op neer. Ik heb die deal gesloten om te voorkomen dat ik aan de verkeerde kant van een 2-1-1 terecht zou komen.
Kemal zegt:
okee, das helder. dan hebben we verder denk ik weinig te bespreken
After some talk about Matrix being in no position to function as an ally to me, we get the infamous passage that stand totally against my views on the game: Darkness confirms the spacerace plan, and indicates that even if he can't win anymore, he will still not break the deal with grs, even if this would mean his win-chances would increase.
He agrees this means that 50% of the players in this 1x1x1x1 have been shut out of the game permanently before they even had a chance to meet other people, but in his opinion, that is a logical effect of a setup like this map offers.
To sum up:
Darkness will consciously act as grs's vassal and will not prevent him from winning, even if darkness himself can't win the game anymore, while breaking the agreement would mean he could. [hmm]
To each his own of course, but why you would want to play civ4 multiplayer without having the goal to win the game yourself is beyond me. Oh well, maybe he will see things differently later on, as situations change? Lets hope so.
In short, this means that from now on, the game is a 2x1x1, which will prove to be a tough challenge, but on the other hand will lead to some very interesting gameplay I'm sure.
quote:
Marcel zegt:
Daar komt het wel op neer. Wellicht was dit ook te verwachten gezien de indeling op de continenten? Die situatie laat in principe 3 opties open. 1 - oorlog tussen de 2 humans op het continent. 2 - onafhankelijke ontwikkeling. 3 - Alliance. Optie 3 leek grs en mij de beste keus in de "strijd" met de 6 andere civs.
Kemal zegt:
je hoeft je tegen mij niet te verdedigen... wellicht zou het prettig geweest zijn als jullie matrix en mij even hadden ingelicht voor de game, zodat we simpelweg een 2x2 hadden kunnen spelen met permanent alliances...
Kemal zegt:
nou ja, een (en na dit verhaal wellicht 2) van de 6 andere civs zal in ieder geval waarschijnlijk wel de winnaar van deze game gaan bepalen, dat lijkt me duidelijk
Stupid remark from my side, hinting at my discomfort with the fact that they continue the game as one, I state that due to their actions, at least one of the other civs will have the deciding vote on who wins the game (by concentrating full force on one of the two and letting the other proceed with the space race unharmed). This obviously indicates that hostilities will break out instead of me aiming to race them both technologicly. As it turned out, hostilities were indeed to break out very shortly.
quote:
Marcel zegt:
het was niet vanaf turn 1 mijn intentie om het zo te spelen, maar gezien de situatie op het moment dat de deal tot stand kwam was het gewoon de beste optie.
Kemal zegt:
nogmaals, je hoeft je diplo niet te gaan verdedigen tegenover mij, je bent helder in je standpunten, ik weet genoeg, gelukkig hebben we dit helder gekregen voordat we over allerlei deals begonnen die ons toch alleen maar tijd zouden kosten
Marcel zegt:
Dat denk ik
Marcel zegt:
ook. het was voor ons beiden tijdverspilling geweest...
Kemal zegt:
ik zal zo straks de turn gaan spelen in ieder geval, wie weet tot laters nog eens
Marcel zegt:
OK. succes!
Kemal zegt:
heh, groeten aan grs, moet ik er wellicht nog bijzetten...
Kemal zegt:
cya
We end by concluding that any further diplomacy between us will be in vain, considering the circumstances.
So, now that the diplomatic background of the game is clear, on to other matters I'd say:
1.2 THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND, THIS LAND IS MY LAND...
Be prepared, lots of pictures ahead!
After meeting the americans (as said above), it didn;t take them very long to sell me their world map for cheap, and the great news was that they have very strong knowledge of the entire continent - including the lands of darkgrss. Considering the way this game is panning out, world map knowledge becomes crucial for the strategic side of gameplay, and will not be gained easily from other human players. AI, on the other hand, does not know these limitations, which is why getting contact with the others before they annihilated the AI was of prime importance. Here is what information Mali received from the American maps (current date 720 AD though):
First of all, grs's lands:
Southern part:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125151529_Grssouth720ad.JPG
65.92KB
Middle part:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125151616_grsmiddle720AD.JPG
78.11KB
Northern part:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200712515171_grsnorth720AD.JPG
77.76KB
Western part:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125151728_grswest720AD.JPG
83.4KB
And next, the lands of Darkness:
Southern part:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200712515188_Darknesssouth720AD.JPG
84.92KB
Northern part:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125151832_Darknessnorth720AD.JPG
75.43KB
And for completeness, America and Egypt:
America north
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125151947_Americanorth720AD.JPG
76.78KB
America South
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125152010_Americasouth720AD.JPG
65.93KB
Egypt
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125152030_Egypt720ad.JPG
67.44KB
As can be seen, grs is quite a lot bigger than darkness, who also faces some very poor conditions with regard to the lands he currently owns. Grs clearly is the big brother of the two, and also has been the one mostly responsible for crushing Egypt (though Darkness also declared on Egypt, and currently owns the city of Alexandria somewhere on the map, probably in the unclaimed region north of his land.
Also, America is quite powerful militarywise (longbows), but does not have a lot of research potential, until all those jungles have finally been removed. Even then, grassland is potent but takes a lot of time to become of big economic importance.
Since we're at it with all the pics, and it will become handy when we visit the strategy section of this update, I'd also wanted to show an update of the Malinese lands again:
Southern Mali:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125152614_MaliSouth720AD.JPG
94.22KB
Middle Mali:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200712515276_Malimiddles720AD.JPG
104.32KB
Middle Mali 2:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125152727_Malimiddlen720AD.JPG
100.82KB
Mali North:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125152821_Malinorth720AD.JPG
82.21KB
<s>Mali Castle, including Pirates of Mali-land</s>
Mali East:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125152927_MaliEast720AD.JPG
85.02KB
And concluding our world tour, the globe view containing everyone:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200712515301_Globeform720AD.JPG
60.09KB
1.3 IT TAKES STRATEGY..
With the geographic and diplomatic side of the game having been put forward, the time has come to start thinking about how Mali can best utilize available resources to have the best shot at winning the game, despite facing 2 allied financial civs aiming for a tech win.
Looking at the state of the game, there are still a lot of factors that are clearly in favour of Mali, or at least at this moment in time they are, including:
- Most importantly: full world map knowledge. Both grs and darkness still have no idea what is going on outside their own borders, giving me a powerful strategic advantage.
- The only civ capable of ocean travel/transportation. Both grs and Darkness didn't go very deep in the naval branche, and still need compass, optics, astronomy before they can build their own galleons.
- Strong seaside production centres for Mali, remarkably few/weak seabased production centres for Darkness/grs. Looking at their map, notice that grs only has 3 good coastal cities in the south of his empire (one has met an ill fate already, see pic 1), plus the weak cities of memphis and heliopolis. Darkness only has a few tundracities capable of creating naval units. Even Roosevelt doesn;t have much strength in this sector, should they take over his cities.
- +1 naval movement bonus. Trading the world map gave me the circumnavigate bonus, not to be underestimated I think on a map like this.
These first few advantages have already been partly exploited, as in the latest turn a longterm hidden (well, last update hinted at this already of course) plan of Kemsa Mumal has been completed.
Ever since it became apparent Matrix was lagging and no immediate danger, it has been a target to the Malinese Empire to get a military force over to the other end of the globe asap, to wreck some surprise damage there. The result: no more Ollantaytambo.
- Science.
Grs discovered education shortly after I met him, and the fact that now he has shifted to full tax indicates that Darkness is probably researching philosophy, with their grand plan undoubtedly being getting to Liberalism first for the free tech.
There is some cautiously good news though, as I managed to get education now too (partly lightbulbing it with the scientist), and already own philosophy myself. I have now started liberalism myself, due in 4 turns. If I can grab it, I'll pick Nationalism and start on the Taj Mahal... things look good so far on that front, but things can still change of course.
In the meantime, I also hope that Egypt might be in possession of Engineering, as both grs and darkness have it, and I don't understand why they would invent that themselves so soon. I'll meet Egypt next turn (actually I already have met them but the game won't let you contact civs in this situation:)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125162527_ContactEgyptbijna.JPG
64.83KB
As it stands, the main advantages at the moment are a (temporary) tech lead and naval domination. As for what is still to come, only time will tell, but one thing is for sure that this game certainly is no walk in the park. And challenging games are still the best ones, I feel.
To conclude, a final glimpse at the demographics of the current turn:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007125162349_Demograhics720AD.JPG
72.87KB
If you can get lib in 4 turns then i would recommend you getting PP as your free tech.
it'll vastly increase your economic output and will therefore decrease the time it takes to get other techs.
also whats the plans with matrix? you not worried that the other continent might turn him when they meet?
Well, if one takes Nationalism with Liberalism and researches or trades for Music, there would be only two techs left towards cavalries. Gunpowder is cheap and though Military Tradition has to be self-researched in any case (because it cannot be popped with a great person at this point), it might be decisive in this game considering a rather retarded state of the other continent. If you can do it fast enough, it might be even worth whipping a number of cavalries here and there. They can be delivered to the other continent at a rate of 3 units per turn with a galleon chain. So, it might very well be that the game is decided within the next 20 turns.
@BCLG: PP is good (yeah our site admin too), but aside from akots's comments, I really think the Taj Mahal should not be underestimated this game. Don't forget that it actually counts double, you get a GA, plus the enemy does not. 1+1 = 2 GAs for one Taj Mahal. Decent logic, isn't it? ;)
@akots: they're not that retarded btw, both have music, and only need nationalism, gunpowder and mil. tradition themselves too for cavs (don't forget they have their research output combined since about turn 20). Or alternatively, they can put up good defenses with gunpowder and chemistry -> grenadier, since they already have engineering. They absolutely can't be underestimated that's for sure.
Also, 20 turns...? I personally don't believe this game can be decided so fast, but we shall see what happens. Don't forget that I have to earn money myself inbetween bursts of research, so after 4 turns for Liberalism there will have to be a small period where money is generated too.
Research after Liberalism really still has to be decided upon, that's the good thing of civ4... lots and lots of possibilities.
didnt you say they didnt have philosophy either?
thus if popping pp with your free tech you'd be left in a race for nationalism which you would more than likely win due to your higher science rate (as only one can research it) due to pp you will have had increased gold from the cottages thereby allowing you to get nationalism faster.
having pp before you start your GA is also usefull as it means you can get even more out of your cottages and be well on the way to cavs before the GA is over.
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
...
1. they're not that retarded btw, both have music, and only need nationalism, gunpowder and mil. tradition themselves too for cavs (don't forget they have their research output combined since about turn 20).
2.Or alternatively, they can put up good defenses with gunpowder and chemistry -> grenadier, since they already have engineering. They absolutely can't be underestimated that's for sure.
3. Also, 20 turns...? I personally don't believe this game can be decided so fast, but we shall see what happens. Don't forget that I have to earn money myself inbetween bursts of research, so after 4 turns for Liberalism there will have to be a small period where money is generated too.
...
1. They don't have Astronomy and won't get it easily. They also cannot pop it with a great person because there is a preference for Printing Press in the current situation. Therefore they are stuck on the defensive. If you can use this advantage you have, that would be great.
2. IMHO, grenadiers/musketmen won't be enough even with a horde of catapults. One needs rifelemen to survive against cavalry. I also doubt they might have enough cash to upgrade whatever promoted troops they have into grenadiers. So, cavalry might be sufficient especially if covered with a few macemen here and there. But it has to be a strong punch with many units.
I've played a few MP games on a more relaxed settings and never had any problem "delivering" it with cavalry against grenadiers. IMHO, cavalry rules the world of Civ4 as much as it ruled the world of Civ3, it is just that the window is not as large on normal speed. So, you have to build many units within a rather short time period. Of course many means really many, 3-6 every turn for 12-15 turns for may be total of something like 50 or even more. It might be practical with slavery.
3. Regarding cash and stuff, if you can spend a few units here and there and kill Matrix/Aztec, this would accomplish a few things. First, you get instant cash boost to fuel research. Second, you get some instant population boost to whip into cavalries. It would come at a cost but one can worry about the cost later on. And hopefully Matrix has at least a couple of Courthouses here and there in his cities. Not sure about the Aztec, Monte usually does not like to build city improvements.
But this is all just an outsider vision based on your spoiler. May be I'm too optimistic here.
However, the only viable counter to this for the other continent would be a mad race towards riflemen. But they would have to wage a war against Washington to fuel that race considering if and when you might get your Golden Age.
Although - as akots eloquently pointed out above - the forecast for Mali was really good in this game, it unfortunately looks like the outcome will never be known.
Grs decided to abandon PBEM games and - partly due to my extensive spoilers, perhaps - no replacement has been found. Having been without any play for almost 2 months now, I think it is time to put this one to rest. [sad]
digger760
12-03-2007, 17:28
bummer, it was good to read yours and theirs respectively to see the inside story unfold :(
That stinks. I would've jumped in and been proud to get my head kicked in by you Kemal. Sorry for your wasted time. This would've been a great finish I think. :(
[mwaha]
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326203856_ChoicesChoices.JPG
86.89*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326203933_Tiwanakurazed.JPG
87.47*KB
Good thing I did not mention the fact that I had another Galleon packed with 2 maces and a horse archer heading for the other continent together with the forces that took the 1st grs's city in my previous spoiler update! Burn Baby, Burn! Too bad I could not take the workers too...
Already 4 more turns have been played since BCLG took over, and they have been ever so kind to Kemsa Mumal and his Malinese merry men. Things seemed to start off in a negative way, as I noticed that BCLG's first actions were an understandable revolt to slavery (and organized religion, which is less logical in his position imho), plus about 350g vanishing from his treasury (assumed upgrades, could be the crossbow on the pic is one of them).
Thankfully, this short term project of burning two major coastal cities has been achieved now, so anything else gained is a bonus (on top of the ongoing peril these galleons' presence alone causes for their empires).
But on other fronts, the past few turns have been eventful too: first of all, on the war vs BCLG/grs, now that Tiwanaku has been razed and Machu Picchu has become pretty isolated (plus the 2 archers that can be seen moving towards Seattle, gearing up for possible pillage duty), it was time to get Roosevelt involved in the war, after having traded my only copper source with him and making sure he had both Civil service and Machinery plus iron:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326205029_UsAbe.JPG
75.65*KB
Not too much hope that he will do some actual damage to BCLG, but at least this costs him some health resources
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326205242_DiploDocus.JPG
65.8*KB
which of course were immediately shipped in another direction:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326205217_bananaman.JPG
68.91*KB
Furthermore, America attacking BCLG might prompt Darkness into action against Roosevelt, leaving his north undermanned... which could of course be beneficial for a certain fleet of marauding Malinese in the area:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200732620540_InDarknessBindThem.JPG
84.84*KB
Note the impressive, but fairly one-sided promoted armies of BCLG hanging around Heliopolis...
On domestic matters, there was good news from Matrix, who replied the following when I asked him for 20g to make sure I could complete tech research on the following turn:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326205512_Matrixgold.JPG
75.32*KB
For those not fluent in Dutch, this is the amount of gold Matrix still owes me according to his administration... that's good, considering that I had lost all my stats due to the long pause this game has known, and was prepared to start on even footing as far as his debt to me was concerned. Not that he needs to know of course..[whistle]
Due to this gold, and the gold plundered from Tiwanaku, tech research has been 100% for some time now, leading to:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326214929_Liberalism.JPG
10.91*KB
As said, Nationalism will be picked as free tech, and construction of the Taj Mahal will commence shortly. In the meantime, a GA might come even sooner than that, with Rome - despite the fact that Mali is out of pacifism - spawning another GP soon:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326215117_GPfact.JPG
82.92*KB
Due to the unfortunate artist received as first GP, creating a GA to leverage the advantage Mali now possesses is a real possibility. However, should yet another artist appear, there is still nothing lost, as one of them can be used to "pop" music, mandatory for medium term goal Military Tradition. The 2nd artist will then wait for another GP spawning in Rome, and start a GA on a later date.
To conclude, some interesting figures on the F9 graphs, clearly illustrating the impact that recent events have had on nations around the globe:
First, there is GNP, where the gap is widening again, mainly due to the lost cities of course but also due to increased civic upkeep for organized religion, I presume.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326215848_gnp800AD.JPG
57.98*KB
Secondly, mfg goods, where we both take hits.. this time, at least for Mali, a shift to the slavery civic and the ensuing pop rushes are to blame, but Kemsa is convinced that the empire will come back stronger due to this sacrifice of pop. BCLG also used the whip, which explains his drop I think, as I saw at least Cuzco dropping a few pop points after his revolt to slavery... not sure whether he would be wipping buildings or units... units is what he needs most I guess, but the combo with organized religion might point towards the former:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200732622115_mfg800AD.JPG
61.62*KB
And as the final graph, power. Not much positive to say about this except that I really like the fact the Americans rank so high on the list. A tough nut to crack to be sure, requiring resources they can't afford to spare I hope, despite the obvious trend of both Darkness and grs increasing their power, and thus military prowess:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200732622253_Power800AD.JPG
59.2*KB
And concluding, as per tradition, with the demographics of 800 AD. Only a few turns after the previous demograph posting, so not much new here. Note the horrendous decrease in gnp for the nearest rival though..
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007326221313_Demographs800AD.JPG
71.38KB
"THERE ARE NO MALINESE SOLDIERS HIDING INSIDE AMERICAN BORDERS"
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417194322_mss.jpg
3.74*KB
, as everyone's favourite Malinese minister of information likes to put it. ;)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417194448_Allaboardallaboardwoohoo.JPG
91.82*KB
1. FIGHTING THE WAR OF TERROR
Back again for another update, we're now in 1020 AD, and a lot has happened since the last update - some things concerning military matters, but also a lot of domestic/scientific improvements have been made, during a glorious ongoing period of prosperity for the Malinese Empire.
While these domestic issues will have a profound impact on the game in turns to come, I'd like to start off with some more militaristic matters, which took place somewhere in the late 800's/early 900's AD.
As has been illustrated during earlier spoiler posts, there has been an ongoing state of hostility between the Malinese and Incan empire for some time, and during this period Mali became a close ally of the Americans who went to war with us vs the evil Inca.
But in the meantime, Kemsa Mumal had not forgotten the troublesome negotiations with Darkness of earlier times, and was keen on letting China become acquainted with the Malinese military prowess. Thus, Kemsa simply couldn't find it in his heart to turn down this very reasonable - and impossibly well timed - request made by his eternal ally and friend Roosevelt:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741720236_Americadanku.JPG
95.52*KB
How convenient that since the destruction of Ollantaytambo, these veteran troops had rested and healed up on board a Malinese Galleon, which in the meantime had covertly positioned himself somewhere north of the Chinese lands.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741720450_Darknesshakkenstart.JPG
69.13*KB
So when high-command gave the green light for action to begin, the ship moved in and the world witnessed a little bit of history repeating:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741720548_Xianpets.JPG
75.12*KB
And a turn later, a division of horse archers secured the same fate for the city of Alexandria:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741720627_Alexandriapets.JPG
90.59*KB
The macemen rushed to the scene came a few miles short to garrision the city in time, even though these foul villians managed to cruelly trick and murder my horse archer before they could board their ships again.
Just going to take a slight detour from the spoilers at this point, as I'd like to point out the extreme importance of managing to control the seas on maps like these, and the profound effect this can have on the game.
As it stands, not only have my 2 galleons with a mere 5 units been able to take out 3 major and a minor city of Darkness and grs/bclg uncontested, the psychological effect of these ships popping up out of nowhere is tremendous as well.
Since Darkgrss has no possibility of knowing or scouting out where my vessels are due to their lack of naval power/knowledge, they have now resorted to extreme measures trying to defend what remains of their coastal sites. Every coastal city that is explored now - 9 galleons and 2 caravels are active atm - contains defenses like these now:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417201611_ilterrore.JPG
74.79*KB
That's 3 top class units permanently guarding a city that darkness has no idea of on whether it will be attacked anytime soon, during a period where he is fighting a very tough war with America in the south. For BCLG, things are even worse as I've seen his coastal cities defended by up to 6 heavily promoted units, all being tied to that specific city site, not being able to do anything useful anywhere.
I've been making sure to keep a galleon into view of their borders from time to time to make sure the threat remains a reality to them, but so far it has just been the 5 aforementioned units - plus a load of naval power - that have been responsible for the havoc on the other continent. A war of terror indeed, and mighty effective at that as well I might add.
Finally, my galleons - as they have no match at seas atm, and if they do get a match, frigates will be around for cover - also provide a safe place to heal wounded units on, once they've made a landing to either attack a city or snatch some workers, making quick hit and run tactics possible even with slow moving infantry units like maces and axes.
Ok, enough of this small detour, just wanted to point out that naval power can be very potent in this game too, under the right circumstances. :)
Back to the spoiler now, where we left the northern raiding party enjoying themselves plundering upper china. The southern raiders, in the meantime, had decided that - due to a lack of opportune coastal targets - they could be put to much more use on land, and were ordered by the Malinese high command to disembark on American soil, using open borders there to easily move around, and - as was the original plan - provide cover for the northern American cities, which I expected to be under siege by Darkness by now, considering he declared war on them a few turns ago.
With no faulty AI moving them around, they were hoping to catch Darkness army either wounded or unaware at the right moment, striking unsees from out of nothing to take out several units, then running back into safe American borders again if possible*.
However, when reaching Boston, the situation was totally different to what I expected it to be:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417202738_Americathebeautiful.JPG
92.91*KB
*Note that my plans of striking unseen where thwarted by the fact that Boston is a Hindu city, and unfortunately BCLG has Hinduism as a state religion and controls the Hindu holy city, making my units visible to him. Very poor American roading doesn't help much in staying hidden either.
It seemed that the roles were reversed compared to what I thought was the case, and Roosevelt was actively besieging Darkness. That sure puts the sight of 3 topunits protecting Nanking in the north in an even better light! Of course, witnessing such acts of bravery by their american comrades made the Malinese revel in bloodlust, and they jumped in to join the fray.
With such a setup, the disappointment was rather big when witnessing the same scene a turn later:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417212853_Darknessremnantrev.JPG
98.48KB
All Americans wasted, and about the same defence for Darkness still in place. Since chances of capturing the city were small - I might have won 3 battles now attacking the city, but then I would be left with wounded units myself, open for Chinese counterattack - I decided to "choose eggs for my money" (Dutch proverb), also figuring that the threat level of my units being alive was worth more than razing that size 2 city anyway.
For the current turn, things have reached a stalemate again on the Chinese/American border near Boston, but I noticed that Darkness has - perhaps forced to do so - let his guard down again in Nanking:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417203656_TerugnaarOegstNanking.JPG
75.63*KB
As can be seen on pic 1 of this post, my units stand by to board the galleon again, and team up with the northern raiding party to see if another coastal raid is possible. More on that in future updates, time to talk domestic matters now:
2. OUR GREAT CIVILIZATION HAS ENTERED A GOLDEN AGE!
Already hinted at a lot during earlier updates, some time after the discovery of Liberalism and the free Nationalism, Kemsa Mumal - first having built up a big treasury - finally took the liberty of sacrificing 2 of his greatest thinkers of the empire, and witnessing such a spectacle enticed the entire population into a period of extra production, with the goal of stengthening the navy and building the Taj Mahal, while the minds of all researching in the empire focused on learning the secrets of military tradition.
And only after a mere 6 turns in Golden Age, Gunpowder, Music and Military Tradition had been researched and the Taj Mahal was finished, adding another +8 turns to our GA:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417204711_Miltradition.JPG
84.43*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417204729_Tajmahal.JPG
84.75*KB
In the meantime, Feudalism was traded for with America, while theology will be researched next turn to revert to Theocracy, resulting in level 3 cavs right of the bat. This makes for a total tech rate of 5 techs (worth nearly 7000 beakers total) in 6 turns - another factor, although non-military, which may greatly reduce morale for the opposition.
Production will now focus almost solely on cavalries, and around 15 should be ready when the GA finishes, more than enough to do very serious damage I think, while keeping the entire production and research capabilities of the empire intact.
The reason that this has all progressed so quickly is that production absolutely skyrocketed when the GA started, best illustrated by the following graphs:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417205238_GNP1020AD.JPG
59.78*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417205255_MFG1020AD.JPG
60.4*KB
Note that neither Matrix nor Roosevelt really is an enemy of mine atm, making especially the mfg goods graph even kinder to Mali at this point in the game. Note that on the GNP graph, BCLG's line is rapidly taking a dive, which correlates well with the current power graph, where he is soaring:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741720565_Power1020AD.JPG
61.95*KB
Also, he seems to be doing 100% tax from time to time, or at least I noticed him earning heavy sums of money every few turns or so... but that number has dwindled down from over 150gpt to 138 gpt now. Hopefully, these are all signs that the Incan empire may be collapsing under its own weight, much like the empire of Straland has done so much earlier in the game (looking at the gnp again, Matrix never recovered from that). It also means, though, that BCLG may be the toughest nut to crack military wise... which target our cavalries will pursue is so far undecided.
Translated to raw figures, this amounts to:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741720544_Demographs1020AD.JPG
75.31*KB
Well worth the 2 great persons, I think!
Rounding up the domestic talks, here's a quick overview of the empire again. Notice the rapid growth in pop in some cities, especially Rome... While Timbuktu is still the GNP powerhouse, responsible for almost 40% of the research nationwide iirc, Rome - and to a lesser degree Kumbi Saleh and Niani - have started to rake in the gold and beakers pretty fast as well now. A good contrast vs specialized production cities such as Gao, Djenne Walata and Antium.
North:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741721929_Malinorth1020AD.JPG
108.52*KB
Middle:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/200741721953_Malimid1020AD.JPG
115.99*KB
South:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kemal/2007417211014_Malisouth1020AD.JPG
105.79*KB
3.WHAT THE FUTURE BRINGS...
Considering the current state of the other continent, it looks like cavalries might be just the final push needed to permanently tip the balance into Malinese favour for this game. However, as Kemsa will not whip away his own empire for mass production of cavs - not saying that akots's suggestion is a wrong one, but I simply loath to whip away my empire unless it is a necessity for survival - there might be the off-chance that they somehow survive the coming onslaught in such a manner that the war will continue to drag on for some time.
Should this happen, while of course military production will remain high for a long time now, research will steadily continue towards the next long-term military goal, which I think will end the possibilities to oppose Mali for the other continent for sure: Flight.
Since the seas are - and with the lack of coastal production undoubtedly will remain - in Malinese hands, a few carriers packed with fighters should be able to decimate the landscape rather easily, stripping them of all improvements and rendering their cities productionless, without any form of defense possible. Therefore, this is where reseach will be geared towards, and while we are talking modern age techs here, research levels look quite good, and a lot of these techs can actually be lightbulbed by scientists, making this scenario - while perhaps more of a musing on the future than a quick reality - not as impossible as it looks at first glance.
As far as Kemsa is concerned, this all won't be necessary though. All cavs aboard, next stop: the other continent!
It's a pleasure to watch your precision Kemal. Good show!
digger760
18-04-2007, 13:23
So how far do you think BCLG or Darkness is off being able to have Grenadiers, they are good against Cavs right?
It does not matter much how far they are from grenadiers (probably BCLG is researching that as we speak, since he got gunpowder a few turns ago), or military tradition for that matter either.
Both these units (though the grenadier still has a tough time vs cavs) are simply too expensive for their economy to produce en masse, so even if they have the proper technology, my assumption is they simply will not be able to field enough of them to get out of the hole they are in now.
And even if they do (mass rushing/upgrading) it will set them back even more in the long run, as it will cripple their future output/research while I set course for flight. Might be I'm too optimistic here (which usually really isn't my style) but those graphs and F9 screens speak for themselves...
Take for example Darkness, who atm has 1 size 11 city (which completed the Haga Sophia a few turns ago [hmm]), 2 size 7 cities, 1 size 4 city and a size 2 city, of which 2 are currently besieged and in danger to fall. That leaves one size 11 city and 2 size 7 cities as his productive core + research capabilities. With those 3 cities, he needs to fend off my raiding parties, the American onslaught ánd create an offensive army to besiege American cities. In between, he would also somehow magically need to create grenadiers out of thin air... it simply seems impossible to me.
BCLG is currently in slightly better shape, Cuzco is a strong research center with a lot of villages/town around, though that results in slow production there. He also has 3 other decent cities (size 7, Corihua, Elephantine, Thebes, plus 2 size 4 cities (Memphis, Machu Picchu). He also seems responsible for the research at the other continent now, and I expect him to join in in fighting America soon, considering his severe power-buildup of the last few turns, which as said drains his economy. Maybe he intends to capture american cities then gift them to Darkness, since I don't think he can afford to sustain more cities with his current empire spread.
digger760
18-04-2007, 14:03
Hmm well it will be interesting to see. I find it much harder to wage war on CivIV as I always under-estimate the defensive bonuses of the opposition.
I also tend to focus on 1 type of unit for offense, so in the case of grenadiers, would'nt it be good to have a couple of units suited against them (cant think of one of the top of my head)
Agreed on both observations. Waging war as in taking cities, especially on another continent, is very difficult due to the fact that siege weapons need to be ferried over, which is a logistic nightmare really.
Due to the high defence bonus in cities, actually taking them could prove to be tough even with high level units like level 3 cavs. However, to do damage in a war, there are other options besides taking/razing cities. Pillaging becomes a serious option should they choose to turtle up inside their fortifications, and would permanently damage their economy.
As for focusing on one unit, agreed again, the rock-paper-scissors approach makes one-sided armies very vulnerable to their counterpart... however, for cavs, their natural counter is the rifleman and they both are lightyears away from fielding those. A grenadier is actually the counter for the rifle, but vs the mounted cavs it performs only marginally better than a pike, as the cav is more or less the counter vs grenadiers.
So if I drop 12 cavs near one of their cities, their best bet (catapults aside) is to attack with pikemen, who still "only" manage to get a 110% bonus (ability + combat 1), vs my shocked level 3 cavs 35% bonus (60% if on hills/jungle, 85% if on forest). A not so good chance for victory there for those pikes, and what's even worse, even if they attack, they need to fully kill the stack in one turn, since otherwise I'll just move them back to my galleons again to heal up. A ton of catapults really is your only option, and even those would need to be placed in such a manner that they actually all could reach my surprise party in a few turn... and they have no idea where I'll be coming from.
But it is good that you try to dampen my (over)confidence a bit here, I'm gonna review everything some more when I get the turn again, to see what my best options are. :)
digger760
18-04-2007, 15:46
opps your right rifles is the Grenadiers bunny and Cav is the rifles bunny, i got my rock paper scissors mixed up.
So, finally yet another update, several things have taken place in the past couple of turns, and I suspect some of you might have read something about it in other spoiler threads (Iirc Darkness's spoiler was updated shortly after some major events).
As a recap, the last things talked about here were some musings on how to effectively use the army of cavs built during the GA, and how well the other continent would be able to set up a defense against the coming wave of attacks (via grenadiers and/or cats?).
So, here will be my take on describing recent turns, seen from the viewpoint of Mali... but to be honest I really don't know where to start, so I'll just post some pics first (after all, a picture says more than a 1000 words), and we'll just go from there:
1130 AD: Attack on Cuzco:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011028_CuzcoSiege.JPG
92.59KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011044_CuzcoAfter.JPG
95.2KB
1200 AD: Attack on Philadelphia:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011115_Phillyaanval.JPG
99.34KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011136_PhillyAmerican.JPG
95.74KB
1200 AD: Attack on Thebes:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20075201121_ThebesSiege.JPG
90.47KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011224_BCLGNoord.JPG
86.74KB
In short, BCLG turned out to be the intended target of the attack, and it has been really brutal. First of all, in 1130 Malinese troops landed near Cuzco and found in severly undermanned, and despite some last gasp troop upgrades it never really stood a chance to survive. One cavalry was lost and 4 more severely injured, but the city was put to the torch.
This probably was the decisive blow to the Incan empire, and as my wounded cavs simply headed back to the medical frigates to heal somewhere at sea there wasn't even a chance to counterattack, meaning the would live to fight another day.
That other day was only 7 turns later.
As BCLG had indeed joined the war vs Roosevelt, and tried to gain extra territory by invading them with a stack of cats and grenadiers/maces near Philadelphia instead of buckling up and waiting for an invasion of mine (a logical decision even though they probably knew I was coming, as really they needed more territory to be able to compete in the long run). He managed to capture Philadelphia but was held to somewhat of a standstill because of my gang of 2 maces and the horse archer who patrolled through American borders, plus some formidable defenses Roosevelt put up.
This also meant he had to stretch his forces out and leave his eastern side of the empire vulnerable. In 1200 AD, 6 new cavs had landed in New York and made their way to an attack position near Philadelphia, while the remaining 8 vets of the Cuzco campaign disembarked near Thebes (containing Stonehenge, Pyramids, Chichen Itza and a religious shrine). Both fell uncontested, but you might have observed that Philadelphia is now actually an American city again rather than a pile of rubble.
I decided to return control to the American empire when capturing Philadelphia, mostly because I had barely reached "friendly" status with Roosevelt (+10) and I wanted to maintain positive relations to prevent him from declaring on me via some random fluke roll or via bribery by Darkness/BCLG. At the moment, it is actually impossible for him to declare on me IIRC meaning I will have continued usage of his roads and territory to heal/strike and return on the enemy. Razing the city would have angered Roosevelt for a permanent "you razed one of our cities" modifier.
Also, but somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, I think you can use the defensive bonus of the city you are in if it is a city of your ally. I know healing is sped up for sure, not a 100% positive on defense though. And since the city is actually next to Washington I'm positive the Americans will garrison it soon anyway.
I contemplated doing the same with Thebes since the massive cultural influence would have been useful for my cavs there, but since Egypt can't possibly send forces to defend the city, I would have been forced to assign some cavs to do so, and that wasn;t worth it for me, as I only have 8 of them anyway.
So as it stands, I still have 14 cavs active in the area while having taken out a large chunk of BCLG's forces already. The following 2 pics actually show his entire empire as it exists at this date:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007520112421_BCLGNoord.JPG
86.73KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007520112435_BCLGZuid.JPG
84.18KB
Yep, that's all there is and Memphis looks like a goner as well... to be honest, unless Darkness intervenes (he has made peace with both Roosevelt and Egypt some time ago) I think that BCLG might not survive these 14 cavs for very long... They are simply too good to be defended by macemen/axes even in the most mature cities.
And with BCLG gone, what hope is there for Darkness?
Basicly, I'm kinda expecting a resignation soon now, if it is to come at all. They might continue to fight though as I can imagine that surrendering the game even before you have met one of the other players in the game (Matrix is still isolated and has no idea what is going on except seeing BCLG's score dwindle down, I assume) feels somewhat stange. We'll just wait and see.
So, that's the current standing with regard to military matters. For the sake of completeness, I still would like to give some insights on Malinese domestic issues, though (yeah you may skip reading if that's beginning to bore you ;)).
Contrary to what I think most would have expected, after the expeditionary forces were built during the GA, Mali starting focusing on domestic builds again and switched civics again:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011353_OrgSlavery.JPG
86.43KB
A lot of extra costs due to maintenance but the goal was twofold: the newer cities founded mainly in the east had good food potential and could profit from slavery by rapidly building up key improvements such as granaries, lighthouses and libs, while on the other hand the mature cities collectively embarked on a mission to get the Newton University in Timbuktu. This required 5 more universities in different cities, as Timbuktu already had one. In short, hammers were needed, and lots of them, so theocracy was swapped for organized religion speeding up construction. All military builds were abandoned again.
But science is still making good progress as well, in part due to the money coming in from the military campaign, and good progress has been made on the tech tree:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752011397_Techscreen1200AD.JPG
66.84KB
Since the last update, Mali has taken the Guilds -> Banking -> Economics path, and a great merchant was born in Timbuktu (plus the free market civic, which is a good assett to the economy as well), who is now en route to New York to perform a trade mission there:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007520114055_MerchantNewYork.JPG
57.03KB
Speaking of which, another great scientist just appeared in Rome, and he will be finally constructing an academy in Timbuktu, which will increase science there by over 80 beaker/turn, making it the superior choice over popping part of scientific method (which would obsolete my precious monasteries in Timbuktu anyway):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007520114233_ScientistTimbuktu.JPG
117.57KB
No demographics to conclude with this time, but there is some news on Matrix, who has finally sent a couple of scouts north to map my lands. A few post ago, I made mention that it worried me since he could sell my map to the other continent, but as it stands it looks like Matrix is actually becoming my biggest rival for the win. He has overcome his economic problems by cottaging and wisely halting his advance on Monty, and is now no longer facing bankruptcy.
With the universities finishing in most major cities, new cavalries are being ordered again, but this time I'm not too sure whether they'll be making a long ocean voyage before seeing some action...
Hmm, Memphis is gone but I was forced to raze it since it borders right on Darkness's empire, and as with Thebes returning control was no option. That means I now have -7 for razing (holy) cities of the Egyptian empire, though they are still cautious atm total due to open borders/trades.
What is worse, America now has a permanent -2 too because of razing holy cities (heh, 3 total now, the hinduism, buddhism and judaism cities... those heretic Malinese). That dropped me to pleased status but I managed to get them friendly again by bribing him to Confucianism, which hopefully he will start spreading on his own now too.
Worst of all, finally, is that war weariness has finally kicked in after taking so many cities, and I'm facing unhappiness in most major cities. Hereditary rule will help out here, but I think I'm going to let BCLG alone for a while, and maybe focus more on Darkness...
In other news, Roosevelt has made it to my continent with his caravels, and has met Matrix. I expect them to trade world maps, but there is little I can do to prevent that. At least I can be fairly sure Roosevelt will not trade his map with either Darkness or BCLG. Kinda wondering what Matrix will think when seeing the map of the other continent though, and whether he will turn hostile soon....
Some short (pictureless) updates in quick succession now, but I think it is safe to report that the Malinese overseas campaign is over for now.
Darkness ambushed a few cavs near the ruins of Memphis with 2 WEs and three pikes, and I lost 3 cavs there for his 2 WEs. This makes the total active cavs in the north 5 total, which is not enough to keep on taking cities there (though BCLG seems to have given up on Elephantine, which seems abandoned this turn, but just out of reach.
I'm pulling back those 5 cavs (maybe take Elephantine from the sea if possible) and just focus on patrolling American soil and taking out units whenever possible. Aside of Beijing and BCLG's southern capitol, there aren't many targets of opportunity left anyway.
Also, there has been an interesting message from Matrix this turn. He contacted me saying he could buy a world map from Roosevelt for 270g (seems really cheap to me, considering he knows almost half of the map, so probably that would involve Matrix giving his map too Roosevelt too).
He was wondering whether he could trade the map with me for less, or get it for free, to which I responded that he could get it for free on just one condition: he was not to trade the map with BCLG or Darkness, ever, no matter the situation.
I'm still awaiting his response, but his answer will have a profound effect on the way Mali will review the current and future state of coexistence between our two empires.
digger760
23-05-2007, 12:18
It appears to me Kemal that you are a safe bet to win this game now. I cant see the combined forces of BCLG/Darkness/Matrix being able to beat you. I'm not saying this based on the other guys spoilers (they report feck all!! except to say X city has fallen to the Malinese empire, by reading you spoiler i get the same info).
You have double the score of your nearest opponent, you are more advanced than them. Even if they got tech par with you, what sort of productive advantage would they need to scratch you? You could hunker down for a boring win, or you could take it to the max.
So how do you think you will win this game? Most likely via retirement from the other players? Or possibly domination?
Its has been very interesting read. so far, i am curious as to how you got so powerful a state in the first place, i must read back over your starting turns again. In my games i always seem to flounder during the expansion phase, and it only in the later stages of the game that the economic foundations that i built early on start to catchup and over take the AI.
Looking at population and empire size, indeed I agree one would expect me to be outproducing my opponents by a very large margin but the statistics tell a different story, I fear.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200752318296_mfg1220.JPG
58.34KB
When looking at mfg goods, Mali only outproduces the nearest opponent (Matrix) by a mere 33% for example, and probably almost has double the amount of hammers per turn than Darkness. This in itself kinda factors out the quick military conquest win since - especially attacking oversea areas - you're going to need a lot more armies than the enemy has, and be prepared to sustain heavy losses and still emerge victorious.
For example, the entire 14 cav campaign of the past few turns has taken a full 16 GA-turns to prepare, and that also had some element of surprise adding to the success. It would probably take at least 25 turns of full-blown military production to come up with another 14 cavs ready to be shipped again, and during that time Darkness's army will have grown as well.
Of course, this process could be sped up by drafting/whipping an army (a very strong strategy) but I already explained that I do not want to use that unless necessary, since I'm too much of a builder for that.
And it won't be necessary, because in this game, research is at this moment the driving force for Mali's success:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007523183347_gnp1220.JPG
58.12KB
GNP is almost 300% better than the nearest rival (which also happens to be a friendly AI), and considering that I do not doubt my current upkeep costs as well as the amount of commerce-enhancing improvements (market/grocer/obs/uni) is by far the biggest of all players, total science output is most likely even higher.
Therefore, what the future atm brings (a process that has been started after the GA finished) is that I'm going to translate this advantage to an overwhelming tech lead, which will result in vastly superior units eventually taking down the others one by one.
That sounds really good on paper, but it does mean a few more turns will pass without much real intense warfare (of course, the american patrols will always be standing by to do damage, but still I expect the next real war to be taking place with Matrix). While I'm very much enjoying seeing my own empire grow, maybe the others won;t be so happy... so a victory by resignation is what I would expect foremost. Else, it will probably be a military conquest, the spaceship in civ4 is way too far in techs to wait for. That could mean that I'll have to finish the game as a SP game, since I think at least one AI might survive the human opponents.
Concluding, since it was missing during the last major update, with the demographics, to help interpret the graphs:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2007523184027_Demographs1220.JPG
72.89KB
As for your final remark on how the empire has become what it is now... I'm not sure what to answer there, except that of course the very early extra worker taken from Rome was a great help in this particular game.
digger760
24-05-2007, 10:26
quote:Originally posted by Kemal[i]
As for your final remark on how the empire has become what it is now... I'm not sure what to answer there, except that of course the very early extra worker taken from Rome was a great help in this particular game.
Never mind that, its probably your intricate use of civics, specialist, land use and knowing when and where to attack. If i had the time to study this game more i'd love to challenge you but alas too much else to do :(
Small update again, there has not been much military action lately despite the success of the campaign vs BCLG earlier. There had been some ideas in a preliminary phase to invade Matrix, but those have been put on hold for now again. I suppose some info on the "whys" and "whens" might be in order.
First of all, beaker production has been soaring lately which has translated into reaching the next age in the latest turn, 1270 AD, via the invention of Steam Power:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200761383517_industrial.JPG
83.56KB
This rise in scientific production comes from the fact that I've been focusing on domestic builds and city growth again for the last 10 turns or so, utilizing slavery and organized religion again before shifting to free religion and serfdom again 2 turns ago. With the construction of universities in most major cities, stone was reconnected to the empire and another small wonder was started on:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200761384049_Timbuktu1270AD.JPG
97.78KB
All this increase in science resulted in the following F2-tally:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20076138431_F2.JPG
46.72KB
If those fixed costs and beaker output stats are compared to Matrix's income:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200761384438_gptmatrix.JPG
61.94KB
His 80gpt is earning me around 134bpt. Considering the costs of an invasion plus the additional period of resistance and extra upkeep before state property, had lead me to believe that holding off an invasion for now is more beneficial to the empire's economy, while I make a run towards vastly superior equipment to speed up conquest later on.
This btw also means that Matrix, who is buying these techs at 60% cost, actually could be seen as overpaying me regardless of the 40% reduction: for every 1000-beaker tech he pays 600g, which translates into 1005 beakers for me, and that number rises as more observatories and universities are completed.
He pays less, I get more... don't you just love the civ4 economy? [cool]
So, the next few turns will be rather uneventful... BCLG has been gifting his last few units to Darkness it seems, making attacking him suicide, so I left a few units wandering in America and blocked most coastal tiles using galleons and caravels, restricting tile usage for them.
Next targets will be Railroad, Assembly line and perhaps Flight.
Good game kemal, it was hard to play as though i hadnt read your spoiler. The empire grs left me was not brilliant to say the least- im not sure what had been going on, probably the conquest of Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
- My war with Rome wasn't the only war that has taken place so far. Matrix refused to give writing to Montezuma, which was not a good idea it turned out.
Monty of course declared war, and somehow, somewhere [mischief] they managed to obtain Iron Working, and jags started pouring Matrix's way. Even though they are 1 strength short of swords, their non-resource advantage plus combat 1 meant Matrix was always fighting a defensive war here.
[cry] [cry] [cry] My ally... [cry] [cry] [cry]
[backstab]
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.