*WOA's Spoiler* vs gozpel [Archive]

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 18:35

Ah, ok then this is gonna be my spoiler thread.

Since this is my first PBEM and it is gonna be completely different from what i expected (i expected small map with little or no AI presence) feel free to give me multiplayer advice :p

I used Gman's forum because he is the guy who made the map, he is an old team companion in the SGOTM's at civfanatics and he invited me to use this forum for spoiler threads.

To start with the game settings:
-both players Maya
-pangea (standard size)
-6 or so AI opponents
-No barbs
-If Gozpel is at the opposite side and about the same distance of the edges, he is at about 110 tiles distance (so i won't be able to horsemen rush his ass as i had planned when he challenged me for PBEM :D)

grahamiam

27-02-2006, 18:46

Hi wacken! I changed you title so gozpel doesn't get spoiled. Good luck and thanks for posting a spoiler :)

grahamiam

27-02-2006, 18:47

sorry, i also forgot

[spam3]

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 18:49

Ohye, no barbs, does that also mean no huts ? (Yep, i am a civ newbie)

And do you want the spoiler to be short and compact like most of the spoilers i see here, or do you want my uninteresting proces of thought, short term and long term plans included like i always post in the (s)gotms ?

grahamiam

27-02-2006, 19:06

No barbs, no huts.

This is your spoiler, so make of it what you want :) Some pic's of interesting things would be good and will keep people posting comments and stuff. Really, anything you want (or nothing at all if you're too busy).

You noticed that mine were short [blush], well, I'm not the best at spoilers and kids take up so much time, that the little time left over for personal stuff leaves very little time to do nice spoilers [blush] I try to keep up to date, but usually can't, oh well

bed_head7

27-02-2006, 19:11

So gozpel gets a worthy opponent this time? Good luck!

Whomp

27-02-2006, 19:35

Cheers WOA. [guiness]
This will be fun to watch. Us lurkers like pictures and discussion of big picture stuff.
Why doesn't Goz have a forum here?

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 19:58

quote:Originally posted by bed_head7

So gozpel gets a worthy opponent this time? Good luck!

Don't forget this is my very first ever PBEM, so tell me about Gozpels style, tell me all those multiplayer inside secrets, tell me everything ;)

grahamiam

27-02-2006, 20:07

I can tell you that he likes to drop off cavalry on your rear in quantities of 30, but I guess that doesn't really help in the beginning [smirk]

Tubby Rower

27-02-2006, 20:09

There are a few ground rules that are there so that you can't take advantage of the game engine at the expense of your opponent. One is to don't give units a go-to move. This is because the units that already have a move order more than one turn will move their next turns moves at the end of the current turn. It's a little odd, but it would allow re-enforcements to cover a wounded unit 1-turn earlier than it would have otherwise. Some of the other players here can let you in on the other rules.

I'm very interested in your spoiler. I've always wondered how your team has skyrocketed in SGOTM, but have never had enough effort to go peruse your threads.

I've never played gozpel and haven't played many PBEM's myself until recently. So no advice on that front. Good luck

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 20:16

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

I can tell you that he likes to drop off cavalry on your rear in quantities of 30, but I guess that doesn't really help in the beginning [smirk]

No, and i am not expecting that to be the biggest problem. I already know for sure that i will need to keep a lookout to what is comming and as long as it isn't amphibious, it should be solvable :)

This brings me to a first specific question though:
-If i place units out to scout like boats on the coast and spears on mountains, do i get to see his moves when his units do not end their turn inside my sight radius but only move trough my radius instead?

-Reading some spoilers, i also saw something about building the pyramids. I understand that multiplayer will be a race for wonders like Hoover Dam and maybe Leo's workshop, but is building early wonders like pyramids common practice in PBEM ?

Goz also told me that all the common exploits are forbidden, but that scrolling trough cities to double use tiles is common and allowed.
-Is this something we can only do when you actually have a city build completing in one of your cities, or is there a way to do this every turn, also in the beginning when we only have 2 cities?
-How does the AI decide the order in wich it will cycle trough the cities ?

bed_head7

27-02-2006, 20:19

Well, gozpel just finished kicking my ass in our game. Part of it was due to general lack of interest/attentiveness to the game on my part. When he suggested the game, I probably only accepted because it was gozpel. But the majority was just due to gozpel's ability to grow. On that front, you two are very similar, which is why I said that the match should be fairly even. If you are on the same continent though, or within galley range, don't count on being able to do an all out farmer's gambit for more than 30-40 turns, and even that is stretching it on some maps. And don't forgot that you aren't playingn against stupid predictable exploitable computer opponents. In my first game, against grahamiam, I was out expanding and producing grahamiam, but only had the sort of defense that would beat back the pathetic AI landings, not one constructed by a human.

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 20:23

quote:Originally posted by bed_head7

Well, gozpel just finished kicking my ass in our game. Part of it was due to general lack of interest/attentiveness to the game on my part. When he suggested the game, I probably only accepted because it was gozpel. But the majority was just due to gozpel's ability to grow. On that front, you two are very similar, which is why I said that the match should be fairly even. If you are on the same continent though, or within galley range, don't count on being able to do an all out farmer's gambit for more than 30-40 turns, and even that is stretching it on some maps. And don't forgot that you aren't playingn against stupid predictable exploitable computer opponents. In my first game, against grahamiam, I was out expanding and producing grahamiam, but only had the sort of defense that would beat back the pathetic AI landings, not one constructed by a human.

Well, that is kinda the part that i regret about this game. (not really in a bad way that i don't like the game, i just have to rethink my plans and addept to the current situation) I have pretty good experience in multiplayer starcraft and C&C, so i know how to be agressive in multiplayer. This game will however not be suitable for that. I am in one corner of a standard size map with 6 deity AI. It is only logical to expect Gozpel is on the other end of the map, meaning it will be 110 tiles to walk or slightly more to sail. I don't really expect to see anything within 80 turns.

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 20:28

For those landings i also have a plan already.
I think I will build a large amount of vessels, if he is gonna be sending me a fleet with units to land, i will sink his fleet with units included.

If he does not send me a fleet, i might send some myself, or i might just move my fleet in his direction in order to divert his main force that should be conquering AI ground back home for defence and thus waste valuable time and maybe allow the AI to punish him back a little.

An empty but scary fleet might also be nice to draw his units when i am gonna attack him over land :)

I still need to decide if i think the lighthouse is worthy to hide my fleet in open sea (and prevent him from building it and doing so)

I can't find any forums with Civ multiplayer strategies, is there none anywhere?

grahamiam

27-02-2006, 20:35

quote:Originally posted by WackenOpenAir
This brings me to a first specific question though:
-If i place units out to scout like boats on the coast and spears on mountains, do i get to see his moves when his units do not end their turn inside my sight radius but only move trough my radius instead?
Since you are 2nd, you will be able to see the AI's movement that go after you. However, you will not see the human's movement. I used this fact to beat bedhead and killer [smirk]

quote:-Reading some spoilers, i also saw something about building the pyramids. I understand that multiplayer will be a race for wonders like Hoover Dam and maybe Leo's workshop, but is building early wonders like pyramids common practice in PBEM ?
You are playing with diety AI's, so don't expect to build early wonders. If it was just a 1x1, no AI game (more interesting imho), then yes, you should think about those things.

quote:Goz also told me that all the common exploits are forbidden, but that scrolling trough cities to double use tiles is common and allowed.
-Is this something we can only do when you actually have a city build completing in one of your cities, or is there a way to do this every turn, also in the beginning when we only have 2 cities?
-How does the AI decide the order in wich it will cycle trough the cities ?
I suggest you and goz agree on a ruleset, as best you can. It will avoid unnecessary disagreements later. The scroll ahead in pbem, as far as I know, works the same as single player in order to prevent riots. I doubt that scrolling ahead to fiddle with scientist/taxman will be allowed, but again, you guys need to decide before playing too far into the game. I have no idea what the AI does, but it's probably pretty stupid [rabbit]

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 20:41

Since you are 2nd, you will be able to see the AI's movement that go after you. However, you will not see the human's movement. I used this fact to beat bedhead and killer [smirk]

I don't understand how being second influences that.?

grahamiam

27-02-2006, 20:45

because after you're done, the AI moves and you will see it. You never see the human move in a pbem. And if you're 1st, you never see the AI move either.

WackenOpenAir

27-02-2006, 20:48

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

because after you're done, the AI moves and you will see it. You never see the human move in a pbem. And if you're 1st, you never see the AI move either.

Wow thats some bad game design :)
I guess that means i will need multiple boats then later on in the game when movement is longer than the area of sight.

Does anyone know a method of pushing a nearby AI into building the pyramids? I am guessing this is gonna be a kind of game breaker :)

barbu1977

27-02-2006, 21:01

Sometimes the Map Maker will put the AI that are close to the first player rigth after him in the turn order so the game is more "natural" at first.

Whomp

27-02-2006, 21:22

quote:Originally posted by WackenOpenAir
Does anyone know a method of pushing a nearby AI into building the pyramids? I am guessing this is gonna be a kind of game breaker :)
I don't know how you can force the AI into making the pyramids other than gifting them the tech, starting a war and having them kick off their GA. Do you guys know who the AI are? Any adjustments to SoZ?

akots

27-02-2006, 21:45

Wellcome to CDZ, Wacken! :)

WackenOpenAir

28-02-2006, 00:28

SoZ is made small wonder.

Ok, i included a picture from the start.
I started on top of that forest. Not a good good place to make optimal use of the river. I moved the worker north up the river to search cow, found the wines and decided to move the settler eastward. Some may think NE would be better, but this spot is better for making optimal use of the river and the city will not receive a granary anyway, so i can do without those extra BG and use those for my second city. After settling, i find another 3 BG there, so that looks pretty fine after all anyway.
One city will be placed at the end of the river, probably SW of the forest, maybe SW of the mountain if that tile touches water. Up north I will see, if the river goes straight to sea there, i will find the best way to put 2 more cities on the river there.

With this screenshot i am now off to make an excel sheet and decide how many warriors i will build before the first settler. Research is set to alphabet as i want to beat Gozpel to Philosophy.

The river goes further south than i expected, i will have to scout if it is does not start in one of those mountains and maybe provides more river grassland there. (Or is it actually 2 rivers both strating from that same mountain)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/200622805959_T3.JPG
38.67*KB

My opponents are:
Japan
Vikings - Alphabet+Warrior Code
French - Alphabet+Masonry
Mongols
Indians - Alphabet+Ceremonial
Chinese

All have early MA UU's, so that will be a bloody field probably. Lets hope the blood sheds on Gozpel's side.

With all these alphabet guys, i am tempted not to research it myself and i put my research at zero. I will trade alphabet faster than i can research it. It looks interesting to research another tech, but i am not sure yet. Zero research might also be a good choise since they are gonna research Bronze Working themselves and they will be doing it faster than I.
I feel that i must take this gamble. If it works out and i can trade Alpha, i might have a money surplus while researching Writing and have very good chances of winning to philosophy. If i fail to trade it, at least i can recognise the failure in advance and find the best way to go without a free tech. If i research to Philo and Goz is 1 turn faster, i might be on a big loss if sacrificed other opportunities in favor of trying to beat Goz to Philo.

is there any way to predict whom of them are near me, maybe by the order of listing in the F10 screen ?

akots

28-02-2006, 01:47

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
... I suggest you and goz agree on a ruleset, as best you can. ...

IMHO, in these kind of games, the most important rule is the number of military alliances with AI against the other player allowed simultaneously. Like one or two or none at all.

WackenOpenAir

28-02-2006, 01:52

quote:Originally posted by akots

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam
... I suggest you and goz agree on a ruleset, as best you can. ...

IMHO, in these kind of games, the most important rule is the number of military alliances with AI against the other player allowed simultaneously. Like one or two or none at all.

Is also taken care of, only 1 Alliance.
And we decided not to do the scrolling thing.

akots

28-02-2006, 02:50

quote:Originally posted by WackenOpenAir
... the city will not receive a granary anyway ...

[confused] There might be no cows/wheat around.

Do you and Gozpel allow free Palace jump?

WackenOpenAir

28-02-2006, 06:36

quote:Originally posted by akots

quote:Originally posted by WackenOpenAir
... the city will not receive a granary anyway ...

[confused] There might be no cows/wheat around.

Yeah, it's just a wine, with 4 fpt the benefit will not be complete (2 overflow) and new cities value is 3fpt already so a settler is more food efficient. Sure a granary will be build someday later.

quote:Originally posted by akots

Do you and Gozpel allow free Palace jump?

No, no palace jumping, no chip chaining, no ROP raping.

Excel tells me a second warrior is gonna cost me 2 turns on my first settler. So i will build only 1 and then a settler. The one warrior will move straight across the map to the oposite corner. I must find as many AI as possible asap in order to trade alphabet. I also prefer to find Gozpel asap of course, but i realise that my path will quite possibly be blocked by AI before i reach him. I will thus try to build a boat for scouting somewhat early.

Gman, i assume AI agressiveness is standard ?

Tubby Rower

28-02-2006, 13:32

What about the second settler? How much longer will it take to get the 2nd settler with the ealrier 1st settler? or is that not a concern?

grahamiam

28-02-2006, 14:20

AI aggressiveness is standard, please let gozpel know that too :)

WackenOpenAir

28-02-2006, 19:36

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

What about the second settler? How much longer will it take to get the 2nd settler with the ealrier 1st settler? or is that not a concern?

For the first settler it is not a concern at all, it must be build before the granary. For later settlers i am not sure yet when i will build a granary.
Only when the production exceeds the food for settler production in the city so that after the granary, it can catch up the lost time.

A new city is worth 3fpt.
A granary helps me from 4 to 6.7 fpt for a net 2.7fpt.
And a granary takes longer to build.

Note that while a granary will make the 3th 4th etc settler come earlier, that first new city will also be producing food and thus new settlers and workers that now come earlier.
In this stage of the game, the only matter is optimizing your total fpt. (well, in multiplayer, commerce also has a somewhat increased significance, but i decided that while increased it still is very insignificant compared to food since Gozpel wont be doing the full rep slingshot anyway)

I have not done this in an excel sheet because this is a very clear case of settler before granary. I may calculate it more precise for later settlers when the time is there and when i know exactly when and where i am gonna settle my next cities. Excel only decided yet that i will build only 1 warrior.

WackenOpenAir

07-03-2006, 02:33

It is turn 18 (picture one turn old) now and the first settler is built.

While i could not see them, i had planned to settle on both the BG's you can see in the Northwest on the river. After moving the Settler to its current position and discovering the BG, i had to change plans. Unfortunately this costs me a wasted turn and it makes my city placement somwhat tight. As you can see the 2 red dots.
The bleu dot is an obvious one.

The black dots are the only real option to have the cities in that region on rivers and have their borders meet up to cover the luxuries in between them without cultural expansion. Unfortunately, that again leads to a tight city placement. Without the closest black city, i could place the Orange and White city more optimal.

I will decide on these spots after settling the red and bleu ones and hopefully having scouted the area a bit more.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/20063723353_untitled.JPG
121.95*KB

My scouting warrior just spotted chinese border, i should meet them next turn or so. Unfortunately, an AI without alphabet.

Tubby Rower

07-03-2006, 02:46

I never thought of the maximizing food other than the obvious. I've never really thought of the granary as "producing" food. Thanks for that insight :D

grs

07-03-2006, 10:30

While I am definately not the expert here, I learned that tight placement seems to be a good thing in Civ3 PBEM games. Three tiles and even closer often is a good choice.

Tubby Rower

07-03-2006, 12:42

From what I've gathered (and I'm no expert either), tight city placement gets production up, but once the nut is cracked, the rest of the cities are easily taken.

Can anyone confirm?

WackenOpenAir

07-03-2006, 13:42

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

From what I've gathered (and I'm no expert either), tight city placement gets production up, but once the nut is cracked, the rest of the cities are easily taken.

Can anyone confirm?

I am not thinking about that.
I don't know what you guys normally do in PBEM's, but i can tell you, i won't be building many defenders. (If any at all)
When i see an incomming Gozpel attack, i will make sure i have fast moving attackers ready to take them down before they hit my cities.

Fast moving units and perfect infrastructure should be the goal in multiplayer. Defending otherwise gives your opponent too much opportunities.

Furthermore, the loss of one core city is very bad. I do not plan with rescue plans for such scenario's, i rather plan to prevent such scenario's.

This particular game should be a pretty long game due to travel distance and AI interference. I want my cities to grow to size 10-12.

WackenOpenAir

09-03-2006, 00:30

It is now turn 27.
Up till now, i was getting more and more worried about my 0 research plan since i did not meet any AI for a long time.
China had Alphabet, but would not sell it. I now met my second AI, Scandinavia, and they have it as well.
Alphabet research would have costed 200 beakers, and i have 174 gold in cash now. I can buy alphabet for 164g + 3gpt. So, not much is lost yet, buying it now comes it roughly the same cost as self research.

I will however wait a little more before buying it. As my tresury increases, they will demand less gpt from me, so waiting a few more turns should not cost me time on my Writing research. And who knows, hopefully i will meet a 3th civ in those few turns, making the trade a lot cheaper.

The second settler has been made last turn and moved to the second red dot. The first red dot already produced a warrior who is scouting the north.

Update turn 31:
I have met 2 more AI's and bought Alphabet for 178 gold.
So i took a chance hoping to get some trades for basically free alphabet, but i ended up having no real advantage. The price is almost the same, and i got it a turn later than research would have. The risk now is the gold ending up in Gozpel's pockets. Let's hope that will not happen.

My scouting warriors have found a cow, but it is too far to settle for now.
Gozpel is ahead on me in score, but that does not mean i am at a disadvantage since i have a very tight city placement and thus not a lot of territory.

Tubby Rower

09-03-2006, 02:19

So are you not researching at all? It appears as though waiting alpha is going to leave you a little behind.

WackenOpenAir

09-03-2006, 02:27

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

So are you not researching at all? It appears as though waiting alpha is going to leave you a little behind.

No not really. Alphabet costs 200 to research.
Very often, i started researching it, but long before i finished it, i got into multiway trades providing alphabet and more.
Therefore, i took the risk not to do any research, providing me with money. This money could make multiway trades easier or it could be used to research writing and philo on a deficit.

As long as i trade Alpha before i gather 210 gold, i will not have lost time. I now traded it when i had 218 gold i think. So i lost one turn there. On the other hand i have a little gold remaining to use on deficit researching in the future.
So the risk i took has not succeeded in paying off, but the damage is not big as long as the money doesn't end up with Gozpel.

Researching it myself would also not have provided any trading opportunity, All the AI's have all the same techs including alphabet.

I have now set research to max on writing.
I think it should be visible if i get it before or after Gozpel. Whoever gets it first, probably sells it to the AI for everything.

Rik Meleet

09-03-2006, 09:33

But you cannot prevent the money going to Gozpel. If he has met the same AI you paid money to and if he owns a tech the AI doesn't then it will probably happen.

WackenOpenAir

09-03-2006, 13:07

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

But you cannot prevent the money going to Gozpel. If he has met the same AI you paid money to and if he owns a tech the AI doesn't then it will probably happen.

He is not supposed to have any tech they don't have.

I decided getting writing first can make such an important difference, i might even give up on some growth in the later stage of my writing research if that will speed up the research.
Getting writing first should enable me to get the AI's technologies, the gold and if i gift it to each and every AI (met them all but 1 now), i have gozpel locked out of trading.
If he gets it first, he sure will be smart enough to lock me out.

Although due to the failed trading plan and 1 micromanagement error i am probably a turn, maybe 2 behind on research, I do think my research should be somewhat better than Gozpel's. I have a very dense city placement that allows me the first 5 cities all on a river and very close to the capital for extra commerce and low corruption. Gozpels faster growing score indicates a less dense city placement, and thus he might have less river use and greater distances to capital.

Pastorius

10-03-2006, 19:40

Hi WOA (too lazy to write it all)

Interesting to see someone trying something slightly different than what the seasoned players here do. I ve just scimmed through some of your posts in this here spoiler so far, but it seems you take a different approach than what other pbem players do.

I suppose it is single player influence that guides your decisions. But I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. Just dont underestimate gozpel

And dont go building any of them temples ;)

WackenOpenAir

10-03-2006, 19:44

What am i doing so different ?

Whomp

10-03-2006, 19:51

I don't think I've ever seen a player go 0% for alpha like you did in a PBEM. Very interesting strategy and I like it, personally. I think most PBEMers have learned to build more military than they ordinarily would but with deity AI in between this looks like there won't be a showdown till late MA's. It would seem that ROP's will be critical in this game.

Pastorius

10-03-2006, 20:13

Whomp answered it for me. I also like how you argue in your posts. Must be because people here have tended to do things in more or less the same way (read enough spoilers and you start to see general patterns)

Not that I want to say that pbemers here are unoriginal...

The details in your writeup are good imo. You benefit from your SG background. Makes things easy to follow (even for st00pid players like me).

akots

10-03-2006, 20:28

quote:Originally posted by Whomp

I don't think I've ever seen a player go 0% for alpha like you did in a PBEM.

... I think most PBEMers have learned to build more military than they ordinarily would but with deity AI in between this looks like there won't be a showdown till late MA's.

... It would seem that ROP's will be critical in this game.

I've tried that in a game against Anarres but failed miserably not only with alpha but overall. Again, he was playing as Iro and I was Japan, so that failure was rather expected.

To the second point: all it takes is a military alliance with one AI early in the game. Like on turn 25 or 30 or even 40. It can be rather lethal because on Deity pangea map, one military alliance usually means that you are immediately dogpiled with all other AIs. They do come with slow units mostly though but it is hard to predict and depends on whether they can hook up the resources. IMHO, the game might essentially end with knights and cavalry would be just a finishing touch.

To the third point, iirc, I've been RoP raped in that game by AI 5 or 6 times and lost a few cities. So, it is a double-edged sword.

But really, my experienced on a Deity Pangea map is limited to only a single game against Anarres and the starting conditions were hardly in my favor. I'd say it was a relatively large handicap. Although, I have not lost yet. [evil]

In this game, the setup might be more balanced. It is hard to predict what is going to happen.

WackenOpenAir

14-03-2006, 23:24

*Last question removed because i found out myself

This is what it looks like now. I initially planned a city on the white dot, but almost unfortunately, it was a BG, so again my placement gets screwed up and becomes tighter due to a BG overdose :)
The red dots should be no problem, the blue is less important and i might not get there before the AI closes me in.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/2006314231817_untitled.JPG
195.51*KB

I have a tight core, it was build fast deu to short walking distancs and not wasting time on other builds and all 5 towns are on river.
The northern 2 towns will both build a settler after this warrior, making 4 cities producing a settler and one building a worker (it will build 2 workers in row) This causes 4 of my cities to grow and be size 2 soon.
All these things should benefit my writing research, i hope it will be enough to get me writing first.
After writing however, my settlers will complete and the towns become size 1 again. So i am not too sure yet if my research will be good then for philosophy. That however is a problem i will look into later.

I am still not sure if i should go for republic or monarchy. Republic might get problematic if your opponent simply never gives you peace. What is the standard in PBEM ?

WackenOpenAir

15-03-2006, 01:18

Turn 42, 4 turns later than the picture in last post.

The cost to research writing suddenly dropped drastically, i have 4 turns remaining on it now (worth 88g). I inspect the AI's and see a bunch of them have it.
I take the cheapest offer and buy it for 43g + 2gpt.
I am able to retrade it for all the different starting techs, Horseback Riding, Iron Working and Mysticism. All AI's and I now have the same tech's, only half the AI's have math as well.
Unfortunately, i have not been able to get back my previously payed gold since this is in hands of a tech leading AI.
I have gotten 19 gold in trade, so i can pay those 2gpt for 9 turns without harming my research, probably just enough to get Philosophy.

I hope Gozpel has been researching alphabet and Writing as well. The fact that most AI's have gold in stock makes me believe Gozpel is not the one who spread Writing between them.
He can't have been able to trade alphabet, so if he has researched this way, he has had no trading opportunities yet, and he won't have any before he researches a new tech either.

Rik Meleet

15-03-2006, 09:12

4 luxuries in your land. :)

WackenOpenAir

15-03-2006, 09:17

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

4 luxuries in your land. :)

Ye, that is nice, but no doubt Gozpel will have 4 as well, so it doesn't really matter :)

I am kinda worried about my scouting warrior. As you can see he moved a bit southward in the centre of the map, but now a few turns later, he found coast there. Expecting the map to be symetrical somehow, Goz could either be on the northwest or southwest. It better be southwest :)
Of course, that is a minor worry compared to the research worries. I just fear Gozpel researching Literacy instead of Philosophy and the AI beating me to Philo.
It took me about an hour to make the decision between Philo and Literature, and i still aint sure. :(
On the other hand, if i succeed getting philo first, Goz is gonna be "drawing dead" as we say it in poker :D. So maybe the glass is half full.

Rik Meleet

15-03-2006, 10:16

Be realistic: The glass is not half filled, nor half emptied; There's 50% to much glass for your drink ! [assw]

Tubby Rower

15-03-2006, 15:54

quote:I am still not sure if i should go for republic or monarchy. Republic might get problematic if your opponent simply never gives you peace. What is the standard in PBEM ?

In PBEM's where you are only against 1 player, peace is almost never re-instated. So I would steer clear of republic unless you can prevent WW (or coutner-act it's effects) for a while. Once WW hits you'll be stuck with it the rest of the gmae most likely

barbu1977

15-03-2006, 16:58

In most games that will last to the end of the MA (Players far away), players normaly choose Rep. The cases that increase WW are not seen often (city razedor unit in teritory).

Offa

20-03-2006, 23:59

Greetings Wacken, this sounds like a great game in the making, and I look forward to following your progress. [charge]

I have absolutely no experience of PBEM and am amazed that anyone can finish these games. Your start sounds good though. I can't believe you will have been set up with a map where something horrid will happen in the very early game so playing more or less like a single player game sounds OK. It does seem that with the help of deity AI, if you can get to philo first you can drop the other human player into a very deep tech hole, and possibly a very unpleasant war to boot. From that point of view it might be best if neither of you get it.

WackenOpenAir

21-03-2006, 01:35

Turn 53:

I have met goz' scouting warrior a few turn ago, and he has writing and bronze working, but nothing else besides his starting techs.
The scouting warrior is to be expected in my area shortly after turn 60. I will have some warriors ready to take care of him.

I just researched Philosophy and got it first. I took Literature for free tech because goz might be researching it and the other techs will be for trade anyway. I sold Philo to all AI and got all their techs and gold. On Literature i still have a monopoly, i hope some AI gets me COL to trade for it soon.

The AI are going very fast. Horses are underneath Huamanga. I wanted to settle that city 1 tile more NW, but there was an AI settler already. I was just in time to grab those horses.

5 more settlers are needed. I started a barracks because my borders are meeting AI and i might soon need some kind of an army in order to be safe.

I have just settled 3 towns in short time (picture is turn 50, towns from 48&49) and now am #7 in territory and population, so it seems i have passed gozpel.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/200632113623_untitled.JPG
75.51*KB

WackenOpenAir

21-03-2006, 02:37

I offered Gozpel free techs since philosophy is a big game breaker, but Goz is an honorable man and he does not take freebies. He bought MM for GPT and traded his techs. I now trade MM from Goz for some techs he still lacks.

WackenOpenAir

22-03-2006, 01:37

turn 63:

China demands Literature from me. To bad i have to give up my monopoly like this. I am researching Currency now ETA 12 turns.

I have to make the best of it now. I sell Literature to everyone, i get about 200 total gold and pay 75+4pt for CoL. I then declare on Goz and use CoL to bribe Goz' neighbour into an alliance against him.
I am hoping Goz does not have the cash for an embasy and bribing a civ.

My empire now has 10 cities and is just about boxed in. My capital produces the last 2 settlers, my rank3 city started SoZ, other cities are producing barracks and workers. One barracks is ready and just produced its first Vet warrior.

Construction is around with the AI, but i was not able to get it. I had hoped to use Literature for that after the AI spread construction amongst eachother, but that failed now.

WackenOpenAir

24-03-2006, 03:54

Turn 73 now.
My situation looks pretty good i think.

This turn, I have succeeded getting Currency first, i traded it construction and a bunch of gold, including some gpt from the AI. I, and all the AI are in middle ages. I do not have a government yet, and i start researching Monotheism.
The AI will almost certainly research feudalism, so there is a chance (although with all 6 AI in middle ages, it ain't big) that i get it first as well. Even if not, the tech trading frenzy between the AI's usually cools down by this time, so i might still be able to trade some even if i'm not first. Republic will be for trade someday, so i am not gonna invest in researching it now.

Gozpel is in not so good shape. He lacks Polytheism, Code of Laws, Literature, Currency and Construction.
My ally, France has teamed up with Japan against Goz. My scouting warrior followed the first french attacker towards Gozpel. Goz' Horsemen killed the first french warrior in the mountains and then killed my warrior in the mountains, so he can't complain about rng so far :)

I also met 2 of Goz' scouting warriors in my area, 1 was easilly dispatched as i had my warriors scouting outside my empire so i could prepare for him. The other unfortunately took a worker from me and forced me tot pop rush a horse for taking it down. This was because i didn't see it comming, and the worker who just finished its job couldn't move.

10 turns ago, Goz was military weak against me. During those 10 turns, i did build some horses and more veteran warriors, and now he is average. So goz is clearly focussing on military.
He is in a rather grim situation with tech deficit and 2 War's going on, so i expect him to focus completely on military, possibly hoping to force his neighbours to peace and maybe a free tech or 2 for him and then getting ROP's to send his army my way. At least, that is what i would do in his situation. I am not fearing him at all though. I am boxed in with 13 towns, so i also have to go military now anyway. I will just have to keep in mind that he might be comming before i send my units off to attack the AI.

I have 3 cities with barracks completed building horses now, 1 city building SoZ, and 2 more cities building Barracks. Those are the core cities. The perimeter cities are building mostly workers.

I'll add another picture. The picture is just after goz' warrior took my worker and before i destroyed the warrior. See the red circle.
The red arrows show the path of the other warrior to the place where i killed it.
With bleu circles, i highlighted the reasons why China will be attacked as soon as i have the power to do so. The cultural influence threathening my cities is of course another very important reason.
Unfortunately, China is the strongest AI by far.

Some galleys must now be build to scout around the map and i will station them somewhere to see if Gozpel is gonna do any backstabbing attacks on me.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/200632435515_untitled.JPG
140.83*KB

WackenOpenAir

06-04-2006, 13:42

Turn 79,

Gozpel is still at war with Japan, he tells me it's a struggle.
Let's hope he aint lying :)

The AI has all AA techs, including the governments. Gozpel is still in a decent tech hole. I am researching Monotheism, but its slow, 25 turns to go on it.

China is my biggest worry now. They are culturally threathening me.
I always like to attack any cultural thread, but China is a monster so that won't be so simple.

The AI are strong this game, it feels more like Sid than deity actually. I expect the AI to have feudalism in a dozen or so turns. China with pikes are a real problem to attack. I might have to wait for Chivalry before i can break out. That will be 40-50 turns from now.

In a single player game, i might even think about building culture an living peace until that time. Now however, I expect not to have the choise to decide my time for war. Gozpel is probably smart enough to buy the Chinese against me when he can.

So i have to prepare for war now, as it could start any moment.
I strongly hope to get a little window of opportunity to attack at least 2 or 3 offending chinese towns before they get pikes to lift the cultural pressure from my borders. A war is also important to secure those gems in the mountains and if i am very succesfull, to capture one or 2 of the Chinese luxuries, but i am not counting on that for the coming 50 turns.

This need to bulid horsemen unfortunately disables me building the FP for now. I am also not sure if SoZ was a good choise because i need the units earlier. I am not planning to build any culture in my border cities since it is no guarantee against flipping and i will need to fight the Chinese someday anyway.

The last 5 workers are being produced for a total of 17. (they are industrious) After that, i will have a granary the cow cities for further worker production later in the game as well as settlers for razing and replacing.

I am military strong to Gozpel, but he is still outpopulating me.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/200646134429_picture2.JPG
201.42KB

Tubby Rower

06-04-2006, 14:25

could you switch the SoZ to another build? What other wonders are left? Why not switch it to the FP and lower corruption?

grahamiam

06-04-2006, 15:54

you mean you are not at war with an AI while goz has been at war with 2? that doesn't bode well for him. seems like he's missing out on an opportunity, which is not like him. in fact, in our game, he kept me in constant war vs various AI for the entire last third of the game.

WackenOpenAir

06-04-2006, 16:32

Indeed, i am in pretty good shape for sure compared to Goz, but i can't let my guard down. The Chinese are a real thread for me.
If i play another PBEM after this, it will be without philosophy bonus tech and without alliances against players. They are just too powerfull.

Goz hasn't really let go much of opportunities because he didn't have any. I won to philosophy, threw him in a tech hole and bought an AI againt him. He has nothing to offer for the AI to fight me, he even payed the AI gpt for horseback riding.
So, he did not yet have the opportunity to return me the favor, but he sure will in the future. So i just make sure i am not only prepared, i try to make sure that i am so prepared that the war is gonna be in my advantage. (And if he doesn't start my war, i would have to do it myself anyway because of the cultural thread)

The only disadvantage i have is that i have the monster AI threathening me culturaly.

I could change SoZ to FP, but unfortunately, the place is not very good for the FP. Just look at the picture. I would like the FP in Machu Picchu or whatever is called there south of my capital.

65 shields are already made, so i cannot change it to a barracks now, which is what i should have build there. Any other city improvement is not worth it. So i will just keep building for now, and i can always decide to swich to FP later if it turns out i won't be building the FP in a better place. The value of SoZ is 10 spt (50s units every 5 turns) A badly placed FP probably has a similar or slightly better value.

Something i forgot to mention:
I also have 250 gold and at least 4 vet swords to upgrade. However, i keep the gold for now because i might need it. If Goz is gonna buy China against me, i must imeadiately buy India against China before i have them both against me. Gold is the only thing i have to give now, so i better keep it to bribe India when needed. If it turns out not to be needed, i can always still upgrade the warriors.

If i wanted to be truly evil, i could of course buy France against him right now. But i'm a nice guy, i don't want to be that evil :)

Pastorius

06-04-2006, 17:14

Hasnt stopped people around here from buying everything and their dog against eachother. [lol]

WackenOpenAir

06-04-2006, 19:28

quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

Hasnt stopped people around here from buying everything and their dog against eachother. [lol]

No? Ok, maybe then i'll do it, i'll tell Gozpel it was your idea :)

WackenOpenAir

07-04-2006, 16:31

turn 80,

An important change in the situation. Gozpel managed to get peace with his neighbours and get the tech needed to reach MA as well as replublic.

His army is weak compared to my 6 horses and 10 warriors, so i think is paying gpt trough the nose for this. Very possible since it might be just about 20 turns since he made a gpt deal with an AI for horseback riding.

Goz now made me the offer for a 20 turn peacedeal and trade my Literature for his Republic if i pay some cash as well.

I assume he is paying gpt to his most recent enemy, Japan. So i don't want to buy Japan against him. That makes the 20 turn peacedeal a pretty decent idea as it will also stop him from buying china against me. How do PBEM players deal with peace deals? Is it a matter of honor to stay at peace for the full 20 turns or do you guys stab eachother in the back when peacedeals are made?

Unofortunately, my empire is not yet ready for republic. I expect a small or moderate loss of research if i turn to republic now.

The good thing of a republic change would be that i can attack china and start my golden age. The golden age would help me build a decent republic and an army to further punish China. I first need some more horses though, and i can't have a revolt first or they will surely have feudalism before i attack them.

I am also still researching Monotheism, so i might get Republic in trades anyway. Of course, that would be too late for an attack on China to triger the golden age as then they will have feudalism.

It is a difficult matter, i am gonna be thinking about this a bit more...

Rik Meleet

07-04-2006, 17:16

Usually, how strict treaties are held is discussed before the game. I know of no game where a priori a "treaties are holy" agreement was made, that was broken. But I don't know everything.

Personally; I would never break a XX turn (why 20 ??) deal with a human.

Tubby Rower

07-04-2006, 17:18

20 is what all per turn deals are. So he might have just taken the default peace deal in the diplo screen

Rik Meleet

07-04-2006, 18:07

I know 20 is default. I also know there's nothing against making deals with the opponent like "peace till turn 100" or "No MA's till we reach the Industrial Age" or whatever. That's the fun part of PBEM; you can make deals more flexible than "20 turns or forever" ..

Tubby Rower

07-04-2006, 18:58

true... I'll stop following you now, Rik. ;)

WackenOpenAir

09-04-2006, 14:52

Since i don't need republic yet and my monotheism has a huge chance of succes (AI's are 93% sure to research feudalism when they get into MA), i have declined goz' offer. I told him i could trade without gold, but he didn't like that idea.
I keep building horses and i may attack China in 6 turns or so. (14 horses then)
Gman, i assume cultural conversion is not turned off ?

Goz told me the value of Republic is now 20-25gpt depending on what AI to deal with. I have not harmed my reputation in any way, i am aproximately the same size as Goz and have a stronger millitary, why do the AI charge me around 40-45 gpt for it ?

Meanwhile, i decided that with 14 industrious workers i have enough for now.
3 cities are producing a settler. These will be ready in about 10 turns and can then be used to replace the chinese towns i am gonna raze.
A galley is just produced. A veteran Jav thrower will be produced instead of a horse and another Jav thrower will be pop rushed in a corrupt town. These 2 guys will be boarded and sail towards Gozpel. They are expected to arrive in 20-25 turns or so. I do this so that i can activate my golden age on Gozpel or if needed a far away AI without the need for war with my neighbours. And who knows, maybe i can do some damage to Goz as well.

grahamiam

10-04-2006, 15:58

quote:Gman, i assume cultural conversion is not turned off ?
That is correct.

WackenOpenAir

18-04-2006, 01:54

Turn 86:

Damn, China has feudalism and i just found out i still have a deal with them going for 7 turns (them paying me 2 gpt :S)
I also fear Goz waits for me to be in war with one of my neighbours before buying the other one against me. (we decided on only 1 alliance against eachother)
Please Goz, buy China against me NOW !

China is now at war with France, the Mongols are in between them, so i don't think they will be doing a lot of damage to eachother.

My research on Monotheism is now ETA 14 turns. probably 12 turns or so with some growth. I guess i can't do much else than just keep buiding horses and hope China doesn't have his spears upgraded 7 turns from now. I also hate how the civ tools don't work with multiplayer, i would like to see the flip risk in my border cities and how many units will prevent it...

grahamiam

18-04-2006, 03:54

the latest version of mapstat does work (well, 2.11.0, not sure if that's the latest). open mapstat, then navigate to the save. it should prompt you for the p/w. type it in, then you should see "none" as the active civ name. select your civ from the list and you get all of mapstat's details. just make sure goz is ok with using it before you do it.

WackenOpenAir

21-04-2006, 02:18

Btw, Gman, what kind of drug did you give those AI's?

World Ranking 800BC:

China 1127
France 989
Scandi 911
Mongol 881
India__ 870
Japan_ 861
Wacke 574
Gozpel 550

This is more like Sid ..

WackenOpenAir

30-04-2006, 20:30

The AI beat me to Monotheism by 4 turns.
I bought monotheism for a little gpt, then traded it for Engineering and payed a little more gpt. I even had to pay gpt to trade Engineering + Monotheism for Feudalism wich every AI has. I don't understand why they are charging me insane prices this game, but they do. Well, i am now paying 19gpt and receiving 22gpt, but 12 of those are old deals to end in 2 turns.

I started research on Theology, my chances for a monopoly are pretty reasonable again since invention and gunpowder are such a strong favorites, but i will probably soon convert to Republic. I will start thinking and calculating about that next turn. Not yet sure if i'm going tru on Theology. Neither am i sure IF i will swich to republic at all. I might just attempt to finish this game with Chivalry asap.

Goz has no MA techs at all, a weaker army than I, is paying lots of GPT to the AI but his land area has grown larger than mine because i have no space to go anymore and he has weaker neighbours.

Rik Meleet

30-04-2006, 20:35

Will you be posting any screenshots ?
I'm a very visual person and I love screenshots ...

WackenOpenAir

30-04-2006, 20:48

quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet

Will you be posting any screenshots ?
I'm a very visual person and I love screenshots ...

Sure, but it looks an awfull lot like last one :)
And sorry for the quality, but the damn server doesn't seem to take more than 200KB and i only have paint to make it smaller.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/2006430204839_land.JPG
133.13*KB

Pastorius

30-04-2006, 21:11

Wacken, try: http://www.irfanview.com/

Better resizing than M$ Paint

Rik Meleet

30-04-2006, 21:11

2 tips.
1 - use http://www.imageshack.us/ and link to it. It supports bigger than 200 kb.
2 - your picture is still the same size, because the white parts around the picture are still part of it. To use Paint effectively; start with the background really really small.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Rik Meleet/2006430211034_hulp voor Woa1.JPG
14.34KB

Then paste the screenshot in (automatically setting the correct height and width - eliminating the white) and resize it using the method below. 80% is just an example...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Rik Meleet/2006430211111_hulp voor WoA.JPG
82.35KB

WackenOpenAir

30-04-2006, 22:11

Yeah, i know about the white part, i think i am actually quite good at using paint as i have done EVERYTHING in it during my TI education :)

Just forgot to change the borders after the resizing:)

Of course, you just wanted to post that to show your dutch version of windows ;)

WackenOpenAir

06-05-2006, 12:32

I'm at war with China.

Goz has bought them against me. Since Goz is at war with Japan and India, i assume he could no longer fullfill his payments or something.

Anyway, i already razed Tsingtao (look at screenshot from before) and will soon take some more.

I was just thinking about ROP's to reach Gozpel, but those plans have to be delayed now.

Research on Theology is on hold for the moment. I might want to obtain feudalism with a loan in the future while now saving money to upgrade knights. Not yet sure about this though.

Oh, and Goz has obtained Monotheism and Engineering just the turn before all this wars started.

WackenOpenAir

07-05-2006, 03:57

The war with China is going properly. I have lost 2 horses now and destroyed 2 towns.

Unfortunately, Gozpels' is being very lucky. I have made an ROP with Japan and sent an old scout towards gozpel where i met an elite horsemen that already created a leader for Goz. :(
Thats a free 200 shield local wonder for Goz or an invincible unit.

He also obtained all the first MA techs.

I am also a little unhappy about the space i got here. I am destroying China alright, but corruption is pretty high there so i can't really make the area usefull for more than taking my 4th and 5th luxury.
My core cities have used all good tiles now at size6 and will need to start using mountain tiles soon.

I feel a little lost in this game. I don't have a good plan. I was ahead of Gozpel, but he is comming back and there is simply nothing i can do about it as he is on the other side of the world and the most powerfull AI is my neighbour. I would like to run towards gozpel and bash his head, but by the time i am there he will have twice the army and meanwhile China would invade me.

Oh well...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAIr/20065735718_untitled.JPG
199.75*KB

WackenOpenAir

17-05-2006, 00:11

Tunr 97, China strikes back !
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/20065170918_China Strikes Back.JPG
136.68*KB

Meanwhile, on i am ready to take the 3th chinese town:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/20065170955_Tatung.JPG
74.24*KB

Losing 2 horses and having many wounded, i destroy the largest of the 2 chinese MDI stacks as well as the single MDI next to it. Now i hope to have enough healed horses to handle the second stack and whatever comes after that.

Btw, i imeadiately sold my surplus luxury i conquered from China to India for 9gpt.

My research is turned of now (single scientist) because my financial situation is not enough to support a proper research, and i may try to get Chivalry by other means when it is around so that i can use gold for upgrading.

I am still despotism. My empire is getting ready for Republic, certainly if i lose some more units in my war against china and i can grab that 5th luxury after razing the 3th Chinese town.
A revolt is of course a long term investment so i am not really sure yet if i should make it. The improved golden age will pay for about 5 turns of anarchy, but it is a repay over a 20 turn period, so "interest" should be reduced. I estimate an 8 turn anarchy to be worthy if the game is gonna last another 40 turns or so. After those 40 turns however, the value will grow rapidly.

However, China is a serous threat to me, so before i dedicate myself to a period of anarchy, i want to have peace again with China. I also am not planning to stay at war for another 8 turns, so an earlier revolt also doesn't provide me the opportunity to activate my GA on China. However, i still have the 2 javelin throwers on route to gozpel, they are to arive in about 10 turns from now.

I will decide about this as soon as my war against China is over.
Basically it will be a decision for how long my game should last. Am i going for gozpel with full force as soon as i can obtain Chivalry, or am i maybe gonna be building libraries? I'll have to decide soon.

I am military strong to gozpel.
8 in territory.
6 on population
5 on uncorrupted shield productivity
8 on bruto commerce total
1 on family size
Millitary weak compared to every AI.

I have
8 warriors
2 javelin throwers
1 spearman
17 horsemen

grahamiam

17-05-2006, 14:37

great spoiler so far Wacken! Game looks intense :)

WackenOpenAir

18-05-2006, 06:48

I'm afraid of those Chinese riders and Indian elephants :(
Makes me think i have to try and end this game soon ..
Could you not have made France my neighbour ? :)

Rik Meleet

18-05-2006, 11:18

WoA: on CDZ :) is not a smiley. Use [ :)] to get :)

Whomp

18-05-2006, 21:42

I think you said you can only sign one MA versus Goz but would it make sense to wait until the Chinese have riders and sign a MA through a peace treaty agreement against Japan? That way you gas both civs during their GA and you don't give Goz the chance for a MGL by sending the riders after him. In the meantime you can build up your empire.

WackenOpenAir

18-05-2006, 22:47

We can have one simultanious alliance. At the moment, i allied India to prevent China from buying India against me.

I don't really think it is a good idea to ally goz' neighbours against other AI's. It will make it too easy for goz to conquer his neighbours.

I am hoping to find an opportunity where he is at war with one neighbour, i can buy a second one against him and then move my own forces across the world to attack him as well. Maybe i should seek to obtain a town on his side of the world so that i can send my horses there and upgrade them close to him.

With the strongest AI's being next to me, and no space to expand, i have the feeling that time is not on my side and i should not try to build up my empire.

(China being the strongest by far with also the strongest UU, India just has a strong UU but is a weak AI. Goz has france next to him who has a harmless UU, scandinavia has a relatively harmless UU on a land map. Only Japan i guess has a reasonable UU but they are the weakest civ on the map.)
So basically, just China sucks...

Unfortunately i am now forced to raze some chinese towns because of their cultural threat (they have TOA). they probably are never gonna like me again. It would be very nice if i can establish a relation with them that causes them not to attack me while i go for gozpel. I don't see that happening though, so i will probably prepare a settler in a boat when i am going for goz :D

Oh yeah, there is one very good thing though. Goz doesn't have Iron.
I don't understand why. I cant immagine Gman giving me iron but not goz. It would be nice though if he isn't gonna get any iron for knights :)

WackenOpenAir

20-05-2006, 04:10

Only 2 turns have passed, but a lot has happened.

I destroyed the 3th Chinese town as expected on turn 98.
I destroyed only a few more Chinese units before i signed peace on turn 99. The war against China has provided me 2 luxuries, and a little ground.

The AI has researched Theology. Good thing i was not researching myself (except for the 1 scientist. I decided to swich governments. My anarchy just started and will take 7 turns.

I will await my anarchy period before i am gonna choose what direction to go. Will i continue building nothing but units, or am i gonna build some harbors and libraries to use those coastal tiles?

France and Japan have signed an alliance against China.
India and Scandinavia have signed an alliance against Japan.
Japan is at war with 3 AI's and with Gozpel, Japan will probably be decimated, so hopefully it won't be too easy for Goz to take the land.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/200652042514_Map.JPG
135.44*KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/WackenOpenAir/200652042530_War.JPG
41.19*KB

EDIT: Just now looking at the picture, i realise i could or maybe should have waited 2 turns before the revolution to finish the statue. :)