Changing to a non-optimal formation

[Shabbaman]

I finished 3rd this season. I knew this season was going to be a waste since I sold my whole forward line, but I'm not optimistic about the future as forward trainer either. This season I've toyed with the idea of changing training (winger (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3183), keeper) but I know something has to change. My goal? COMPLETE DOMINATION!!!

That's right. Now I'm counting on you to show me the way. My latest "brilliant" idea is to change 1st team formation to 3-5-2, and keeping 2nd team 3-4-3 (to ensure getting trounced in CDZ cup matches). The pro is obvious, a stronger midfield. And I already have that extra midfielder.

The con is obvious, loss of income. I'm doubting this though. What if I expand my stadium to something huge? Bigger crowds (due to better results) will give me a higher income as well. I think that if I'm lucky I get 50k a week for a forward trainee.
Another con is a weaker offence, not a real problem.

My guess is that I should go for it NOW. If I want to play 3-5-2 next season I need the formation experience. How long does it take to get the formation up to a passable level? I can play this weeks friendly as 3-5-2, since I'll be training set pieces (trains all players) I can play next weeks friendly plus the first cup game with 3-5-2 formation as well, before the competition starts.

So, go for it?

[Dell19]

The easy part first. It should take about two games to get 3-5-2 up to a reasonable standard.

Dropping training is a bad idea since you are ensuring that you lose a lot of money whilst it is not such a certainty that you will get better results or particularily greater attendences. Bearing in mind that you only have a home game once every two weeks so you would have to gain an extra revenue of 100k on each friendly which would be tough in the weeks where you play teams that are heading for relegation. A further point against is that you play 3-5-2 and end up winning promotion but then you find yourself in a much harder league where you are playing 3-5-2 just to survive.

To end with a story, there is a team in V who did play 3-5-2 and won a few games that they might have lost otherwise but they still ended up with a qualifier. With money to spare they decided to buy a divine playmaker and still lost the playoff and the next season they finished midtable whilst losing a load of money on the weeks worth of wages for the divine player and losing training that allowed other teams to catch up slightly. Dropping a player would be a bit like dropping training intensity to win a game.

Admittedly it may or may not work for defence trainers to drop one slot but even then it would be preferrable to have a team that could play 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 and still compete.

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Dell19

Dropping training is a bad idea since you are ensuring that you lose a lot of money whilst it is not such a certainty that you will get better results or particularily greater attendences.


Hm, I don't know. I'm fairly sure it'll win me the league next year. The difference in revenue between a poor (this year) and an average run is 60k profit. Assuming the 50k profit on a forward I'd be losing 20k a week. If I win promotion I could always change back to 3-4-3.

[Kemal]

You're throwing away not just a single spot, but - as a forward trainer - 16.6% of your entire training income (compared to 10% for the defending trainer). It might even turn out more profitable to train 12 (sometimes more, depending on league match) trainees in shooting, since, assuming this amounts to 45% scoring training per trainee, would still see you get more training in scoring, and get a fraction of set pieces training on top of that too.

You would need very expensive trainees though I think to keep that profitable, since age becomes a factor quickly too with shooting. Best ask yndy about that I suppose.

I think if you really want to play 3-5-2, switching training is the best option.

[Dell19]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman
Hm, I don't know. I'm fairly sure it'll win me the league next year. The difference in revenue between a poor (this year) and an average run is 60k profit. Assuming the 50k profit on a forward I'd be losing 20k a week. If I win promotion I could always change back to 3-4-3.


In that case the other point becomes more relevant in that you may have a better season this time around but next season you may have a terrible time in the league above as the competition will be better. 50k profit seems a little low for a trainee, I would put it at around 60-70.

[Melifluous]

I'm sorry I couldn't help it.

You have a poll with all this scary math going around and there's a Moron option?

[meli]

[Shabbaman]

Especially for you :D

Kemal, I hate it when you write convincing stuff like that.

[arne1]

I understand my vote will not carry much weight since I am a newby, but as far as I understand it, you should never drop any training. So I tend to agree with Kemal. If you want to change formation choose a training that fits that formation.

[akots]

Why not going for keeper training? That is a great opportunity imho. I'm basicall facing the same problem. Forward training sucks. I'm roughly calculated, I'm not making even 50K per week with training. Consider this, you'd have to leave 2 or better 3 best trainees to yourself to have your own forwards. So, what you'd be able to sell is not worth much and won't be worth much considering how many teams still train scoring. Keeper training seems to bring same money in terms of money with 2-3 trainees. One best you might leave for yourself, so one keeper is for sale. That would bring at least same cash as 3 forward trainees of somewhat lower level which is reasonable considering the speed of training.

WHat I wanted to say is that this does not result in any loss of training income. But what you gain is flexibility. Play anything you want be it 3-4-3, 3-5-2, 5-4-1 or whatever you can imagine, just exercise a couple of times in friendlies in advance. As for me, it seems that it is the only solution which enables to do well in the league. Look at mine league this season. There is a completely shitty team, no better than mine in stars. But he finished second, whereas I finished fifth (should have been 4th but never mind). The only advantage he is having is keeper training. He played 4-4-2, 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 depending on the opponent. This requires careful pick of midfielders with both some passing and defending but overall not that tricky. YOu know the rival, run simulation in HO and see which setup gives better probability of winning and go for it. Flexibility is everything.

Another espect is about income. IMHO, accumulating cash reserve and getting some financial income is the way to go in the long run. Training is a source of income but really, not training forwards, not at the current state of the market which actually had been pretty much stable for the past 3 seasons. Not at mine level which is pretty close to your level. We are not talking divine players here, world class is a top possible and it does not pay off adequately. Especially with FTW screw up.

That was a long rant, sorry about that.

[Shabbaman]

Sure thing akots, but that'd be a waste of the trainees I already have. Besides, my forwards need at least 1 additional level (to world class) to stand a chance at all in the V.

BTW, I've had profits ranging between 50k and 60k a week. Major suckage.

[akots]

Same thing here, waiting for at least one to pop to world class. In the USA though, it seems that world class/magnificient is OK for div V for forwards on average. But seriously, I don't think I'll ever get to div 4 in near future if ever. However, as long as I can survive in V, I think I'll continue training forwards at least during first half of the next season. It all depends on league situation.

I think I'm still the only one who voted yes. Also, you can easily cut on youth squad, just stop paying 20K every week. That might partially complensate for loss of a trainee. Despite what is major point of view, YS barely pays for itself at least for me and so for many others. Some might be more lucky with it though.

[Dell19]

You can't use the youth academy as a compensation tool since it is not linked to the situation that Shabba is proposing. In either scenario you could cut back youth investment for the same benefit.

[akots]

Yes, but either way it is rather small part of expenses even in the long run. Pulling from YS is fun but actually supporting it is a waste of money.

[ProPain]

not much to add to the forward training rant, I feel the pain [cry]

I have been lucky with my YS, around 2,5M in sales this season iirc. Apart from the direct income you also get additional income from resales (mother and former club), for me about 100K this season. The longer you exists, the more stable and higher this becomes: more players in the system.

So I wouldnt cut all expenses on the YS. HOwever I heard KR say the difference between solid/excellent is marginal. So maybe cutting back to 10K a week and losing a level to solid might well be worth the while.

[Shabbaman]

Well, I have two trainees from my own YS, but that aside I only got 900k total from my YS. In two years time.

But that's a different discussion.

[yndy]

Since we all agree that forward training is a shitty one, I assume it’s obvious for everyone that inefficient forward training is even worst. Now between inefficient forward training and keeper training, I’d pick the latter. But I’d pick anything else in the first place.

Shooting is a wonderful training, but you lose performance (I really might be going back to VI at the qualifier) and doing it optimally needs some important investment.

Set pieces is also profitable but takes some time and also high investment and there is a high risk that the margins will collapse at some point.

Playmaking is the best to do if you compare results with income. 2 years ago when I joined it was the best training and it still is. Too bad I didn’t realize it in time. Also the flexibility of playmaking allows that you lose only 6.25% of training by choosing a non optimal 3-4-3 or 4-4-2 instead of the classic 3-5-2 and its alternative 4-5-1. It’s also the training that improves the team most visibly and helps with promotion.

Defending is the next best overall and provided one has enough money, it can be a good training for a team that wants to maintain position in the league and accumulate funds. In 2 seasons time (hopefully) you’ll see a very innovative approach to defending training from my behalf but it’s going to take a helluva lot of cash.

Winger is still good if you get players with good playmaking skill but there’s not much of a training for the ones that want to change tactics. Also it’s prone to inefficiencies.

I also voted the Moron option. ;)

[socralynnek]

I also vote No.
In scoring (or winger) you lose much if you lose one spot of training.
So, I also say: If you want to train scoring, do it right or not at all.
If you want a good midfield, play 2-5-3 and get a good captain (risky though)
If you want to push the midfield you can do it in other ways (OD, WTM). 3-4-3 is better now with FTW, because you have a lot of flexibility in attack.

[Shabbaman]

Changing training doesn't help me much now. I don't have the cash to buy good trainees unless I sell the ones I have, but those have to pop first. Hm. And what should I do then with my current midfield?
If I change my training at all, this'd be halfway the season at earliest. Another season wasted.

*sigh*

[Kemal]

I'm not so sure anymore on defending being the most profitable training type, I have to say, based on the huge collapse in prices I've seen this season. You can atm buy yourself an outstanding defender for 1M, whereas you buy an excellent 17 year old now for 350K. If you train that excellent 17 year old for 20 weeks, he will be worth 1M, meaning you'll get 450K profit in 20 weeks, that equals 22.5K per trainee per week, or with a full training schedule and shitty performance, 225K a week!
Even if you continue training, you sell a brilliant defender at 1.5M, meaning a profit of 1M for more than 30 weeks of training, so that would be about 30K a week... but that is assuming the defender market stays at the constant level it is at now! 2 season ago, outstanding defenders did 1.5M...

I do train scoring myself as well, I'm planning to sell at the start of next season, and net about 8M netto profits for 4 trainees. I bought them at 2.3M though, meaning my profits in cash will be about 5.5M for 2 full seasons of training, or 28K a week per trainee. But that does not take into account that you'll also end up with 2 trainees that you keep, worth 2M each too. So your real profit is almost 4M higher than that 5.5M. That does not seem like poor training to me at all, really.

[Dell19]

I would like to reiterate an earlier point that prices have collapsed but in general they have collapsed for all training types so earning less money isn't necessarily that bad if you can still buy the same sort of players. Bit of a pain if you want to spend the money on other things like a coach or the stadium where prices are fixed or have gone up.

[Kingreno]

I think Playmaking AND defending are the most profitable. PM is obvious. Defending has drawbacks (5-3-2/5-4-1...) but profits are great IF you are willing to invest time and know what the Mob pays for the right second skills. I, after 3 seasons, am slowly beginning to see what is right and what is not. Also, with 5-3-2 or 5-4-1 you can easliy have 11 trainees as one is likely to be injurred.

@Shabba: I voted Moron. Sacrificing a training spot always sucks. You can better play 3-5-2 in those matches that need that line up and train passing that week. Whilst most can be won with 3-4-3 anyways, so 10 weeks of scoring and 4 weeks of passing. This is nice for your midfield as well.

[Shabbaman]

Wouldn't the lack of experience make things even worse then?

[Kingreno]

hmm. a bit I guess. But playing it once every 2,5 weeks or so is enough to keep it at passable.