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grs
08-12-2005, 21:54
The game setup is here (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3286).

This is my start.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2005128205122_start.jpg
56.75*KB

After moving the warrior to the hill, I decided to settle on it, to reduce water tiles a bit. I settled Dheli in 3960BC, started a warrior and polytheism.

Kemal
08-12-2005, 21:58
Nice start... do I see some special fog-gazing mod there? Or just your average civ4 graphics-bug? ;)

Would be nice to have some flood plains there, are you playing an expansive civ?

Pastorius
08-12-2005, 22:00
India is industrious and spiritual, and has the fast worker as their UU. Which is indeed. A fast worker.[w00t]

grs
08-12-2005, 22:03
I am playing Gandhi (industrious/spiritual) this is just my usual nvidia graphic-bug.

grs
08-12-2005, 22:16
Talking a bit about my plans:
First: I will obviously try to grab a religion fast. I have lost one turn on my way to polytheism by moving the settler, but I have a bonus tile, that yields 3 food + 1 gold, which I consider quite good, given you can't raise your income by roading tiles anymore.
Second: I will try to make use of my industrious trait and grab an early wonder or two.
Third: I will try to be defensive and build some fast workers fast, to make use of them asap.

Kemal
08-12-2005, 22:17
Ok thanks, I wasn't sure on the other (Asoka) Indian leader's traits, I'm pretty sure he wasn't industrious though... but it turns out he is organized/spiritual, so my question was moot to begin with. :)

Imho, Gandhi is the better of the two, but then again, I'm not much into large empires.

grs
14-12-2005, 23:08
Missed Hinduism by one turn, while Budhism is not founded yet.

grs
24-12-2005, 13:06
I started to research masonry - to be able to build a quarry and on my way to judaism. Shortly after starting, I popped it from a hut. Three huts gave me cash and the fourth the mentioned tech. I have a fifth I can pop next turn.

Meanwhile I have finished my first worker and started farming the corn. My build was warrior, warrior, worker. I am building my third warrior now, who will stay as garrison, while I let Dheli grow some more before my first settler.

grs
28-12-2005, 19:14
Meanwhile the fifth hut gave me a scout. I was first to reserch Monotheism and Judaism was founded in Dheli. I installed it as state religion of course and switched to Organised Religion (exchanging 1 gold for 1 shield for the moment). After letting Delhi grow to size 5, I will build 2 settlers and finish Stonehenge after that. I am a bit screwed with luxes I must say and I fear I only have one neighbour. I thought the custom continents scripts will evenly distribute the civs to the two continents I selected.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/20051228181157_Delhi 2520BC0000.JPG
62.36*KB

Lt. Killer M
29-12-2005, 12:37
sucky res :(

before you think about hooking up the stone, THEN building Stonehenge, remember that Stonehange is absurdly cheap. Build it sooner rather than later - hooking up stone will take too long. OTOH, Pyramids are a great wonder, and for them stone becomes a real help ;)

Kemal
29-12-2005, 12:58
With a standard continents map, the division of civs doesn't have to be 3/3 indeed, but it's not as bad as it would be in civ3 to have only one opponent, at least you'll be sure to have plenty of room allowing you to take it easy on military for a while, once you have a few vets running around to take care of barbs.

Your lands don't look to fertile, so having not as many happiness luxes might not be a severe problem per se, and a good thing you do have a state religion. Any plans on grabbing others later as well (as I suppose they might come in very handy with free religion, to combat unhappiness)? Otoh, I guess you'd want to beeline to optics for the caravel...

With stone and some chopping, Pyramids is in the bag... Representation is usually my favourite civic, but with the below par amount of food on your lands, I'm wondering whether you'd be really getting much profit from that civic (or any gov civic) in this case at this time. A real challenge, but doing well so far I think. :)

Since you're likely going to use the sea as a food source as well, considering both the lay of the lands and the amount of deserts and plains, I guess you'd have quite a few coastal cities.. any plans on grabbing the Great Lighthouse somewhere perhaps?

grs
30-12-2005, 16:09
quote:Originally posted by Lt. Killer M

sucky res :( I can only blame myself, since I selected the map script and started the game myself. I read later, custom continents should be used with the "1 per team" setting in PBEM.

quote:Originally posted by Lt. Killer M

before you think about hooking up the stone, THEN building Stonehenge, remember that Stonehange is absurdly cheap. Build it sooner rather than later - hooking up stone will take too long. OTOH, Pyramids are a great wonder, and for them stone becomes a real help ;)
I did already start stonehenge while letting the city grow (keeping some shields of a partial build is a good new feature imho). I want 2 settlers first and then I will continue to build it. I think you are correct, it will finish before I connect the stone.

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

With a standard continents map, the division of civs doesn't have to be 3/3 indeed, but it's not as bad as it would be in civ3 to have only one opponent, at least you'll be sure to have plenty of room allowing you to take it easy on military for a while, once you have a few vets running around to take care of barbs.? I consider one aspect even worse: a lone AI will not trade techs with me, because it considers them a monopoly unless it knows other civs. But meanwhile I met the arabs, so it is at least 3:5. I was very surprised contact was this late. I experienced the AI to seek contact quite fast - even on lower levels - so far.

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

Your lands don't look to fertile, so having not as many happiness luxes might not be a severe problem per se, and a good thing you do have a state religion. Any plans on grabbing others later as well (as I suppose they might come in very handy with free religion, to combat unhappiness)? Otoh, I guess you'd want to beeline to optics for the caravel...
I like to try jumping from Oracle to Code of Laws to get Taoism (correct religion?), but that is still in the future. quote:Originally posted by Kemal


With stone and some chopping, Pyramids is in the bag... Representation is usually my favourite civic, but with the below par amount of food on your lands, I'm wondering whether you'd be really getting much profit from that civic (or any gov civic) in this case at this time. A real challenge, but doing well so far I think.

Since you're likely going to use the sea as a food source as well, considering both the lay of the lands and the amount of deserts and plains, I guess you'd have quite a few coastal cities.. any plans on grabbing the Great Lighthouse somewhere perhaps? I have to admit I did not plan that far yet, but I will keep you updated :)

Lt. Killer M
30-12-2005, 17:46
grs, the late contact may be due to barbs! I keep having very late contacts, then finding that that Ai got its early scouting units killed.

grs
04-01-2006, 23:20
About to found my 2nd city in 2040BC.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200614221918_settler_below.jpg
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My plans.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200614221952_tech1.jpg
77.11KB


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/20061422205_tech2.jpg
78.94KB

grs
06-01-2006, 21:29
Finished my first wonder in 1840BC.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200616202553_stonehenge.jpg
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My lands at that time.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/20061620266_1840bc.jpg
114.36KB

A settler with chop support will be next, after that I will build The Oracle for a tech jump. Delhi will have to stay at size 6 - sadly this is all I can keep happy for some time. The fastest way out of the unhappyness problem would be a temple. Connecting my first lux will take some more time.

romeothemonk
06-01-2006, 22:05
Congrats on the wonder. Is it legal for me to peruse this spoiler as I can try and glean playing style from it?

ONe of the benefits of your being relatively isolated is your ability to wonder hog early.

Those GP can research tech for you nicely in the MA.

grs
06-01-2006, 22:12
quote:Originally posted by romeothemonk

Congrats on the wonder. Is it legal for me to peruse this spoiler as I can try and glean playing style from it? Sure, don't even know if I have a playing style yet :)

grs
08-01-2006, 19:54
I am quite happy with my game so far. While the bad terrain and especially the missing of luxes became even more clear, I think I have done a good job collecting wonders and religions so far.

The Oracle of Delhi,
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200618181631_oracle of delhi.jpg
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which gave me code of Laws and conficianism.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200618181710_cufizius.jpg
55.71KB

I am producing my 3rd settler now - again with the help of a chop. After that I will start the Pyramids; stone will be connected then. In reasearch I will have to make a quick detour to pick up animal husbandry, the wheel and maybe fishing. I think about building even more early wonders - Chichen Itza is a possibility. When I have the Pyramids I will revolt to representation to get three more happy people at least.

Good turn really: wonder, free tech, religion, free missionary and a new town settled.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200618185210_madras founded.jpg
77.7KB

I am still unsure, what to do with the confician missionary. If I use it to convert Tokugawa, who is religionless - he will get annoyed with me, because my state religion is judaism, correct? I see no big use in spreading it to my capital now, since I will have no gain from a second religion unless I adopt free religion, correct?

My dotmap,
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200618183459_dotmap.jpg
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demographics
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200618185340_demo.jpg
71.45KB

and victory conditions.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200618185411_vic.jpg
33.71KB

Pastorius
08-01-2006, 20:07
Me thinks saving the missionary is an ok idea.

But what about...

-cost of saving it vs adding to a domestic city? If adding, less gold is spent on units, no? So even if there is no immediate benefit of adding it to one of yours, it could be better than keeping it around (cost-minimization)
-monasteries? IIRC they are required to build missionaries of any kind. I suppose you have other priorities (for good reasons) - so by assumption that makes going to Japan a not so good idea (as you said, just adding details to your logic, I think). But there is a civic that also enables missionary builds. It is a good civic, though IIRC it costs a bit in maintenance. I assume you do not have that civic yet (since I cannot rememeber what tech it comes with).

So to me it is a choice between keeping or adding. Domestic use only. For now. Unless I overlooked something in the above assumptions.

I ll shut up now.

Kemal
08-01-2006, 20:09
On the happiness issue, note that hereditary rule/monarchy gives in essence limitless happiness at the cost of one unit per happy face per city.

But with furs, silver and incense up for grabs at least, representation looks more solid if you can reach the pyramids, that is. Maybe the Notre Dame is an option too, since it has double prod speed at stone too, for the happiness issues?

On religion, spreading a religion to Toku could yield tremendous rewards later on, perhaps you could spread Confucianism with him, and revolt to that yourself as well? Would only require one chopped missionary in Bombay to spread Taoism to Delhi, and the diplomatic bonus is very high, as well as the fact that Toku will start spreading the religion in his own cities as well, while you have the holy city/world wonder building (assuming you'll be creating quite some prophets from the Stonehenge/Oracle), for tons of cash later in the game.

Same goes for monotheism of course, one chopped missionary in organized religion and Toku would start spreading mono on his own... might be something to consider though I assume you've taken this into consideration as well, and you certainly are in a better position to weigh the options. :)

grs
08-01-2006, 20:57
quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

Me thinks saving the missionary is an ok idea.

But what about...

-cost of saving it vs adding to a domestic city? If adding, less gold is spent on units, no? So even if there is no immediate benefit of adding it to one of yours, it could be better than keeping it around (cost-minimization) I don't have to pay unit upkeep yet, but in general I could do this before I bunker him, while he is costing me 1gpt.
quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

-monasteries? IIRC they are required to build missionaries of any kind. I suppose you have other priorities (for good reasons) - so by assumption that makes going to Japan a not so good idea (as you said, just adding details to your logic, I think). But there is a civic that also enables missionary builds. It is a good civic, though IIRC it costs a bit in maintenance. I assume you do not have that civic yet (since I cannot rememeber what tech it comes with). That civic is organised religion. It comes with monotheism and I have already switched to it. It is very helpful in getting early wonders, since it adds 25% to any building I produce. Add that to my 50% bonus for wonders from being industrious.
quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

So to me it is a choice between keeping or adding. Domestic use only. For now. Unless I overlooked something in the above assumptions. What is domestic use? What do you mean by a domestic city?


quote:Originally posted by Kemal

On the happiness issue, note that hereditary rule/monarchy gives in essence limitless happiness at the cost of one unit per happy face per city.

But with furs, silver and incense up for grabs at least, representation looks more solid if you can reach the pyramids, that is. Yes, I think representation looks better for now. It also adds science and has only low upkeep. I am pretty sure I get The Pyramids, with +75% on it, unless Darkness (or an AI) has started it some turns ago.

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

Maybe the Notre Dame is an option too, since it has double prod speed at stone too, for the happiness issues? Nice, didn't notice that one yet. It is not too far and lies behind a free artist. Not sure if I can get the upper techs fast enough though.

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

On religion, spreading a religion to Toku could yield tremendous rewards later on, perhaps you could spread Confucianism with him, and revolt to that yourself as well? Would only require one chopped missionary in Bombay to spread Taoism to Delhi, and the diplomatic bonus is very high, as well as the fact that Toku will start spreading the religion in his own cities as well, while you have the holy city/world wonder building (assuming you'll be creating quite some prophets from the Stonehenge/Oracle), for tons of cash later in the game.

Same goes for monotheism of course, one chopped missionary in organized religion and Toku would start spreading mono on his own... might be something to consider though I assume you've taken this into consideration as well, and you certainly are in a better position to weigh the options. Hmm...I somehow like to spread Judaism more. I have already 2 cities with it and its general influence is much higher, but I am really unsure on this.

Lt. Killer M
08-01-2006, 21:05
do you have a state rel?

if not, get one - why not Cof?

SPREAD IT!!!!!

my latest game there's only 2 towns not with Hindu. One civ tries holding out (second biggest behind me) on another rel and gets constant troubles with other AIs for it. Harharhar!

grs
15-01-2006, 15:28
Hmm...I would really like to spread religion, but I can't get an open borders agreement with anyone for many, many turns. Sadly Saladin could spread Hinduism to Japan, so both have -4 for a differet religion towards me now. Do I have a chance to get open borders with them anytime soon?

Kemal
15-01-2006, 15:47
No chance I'm afraid, Japan is exceptionally reluctant to sign agreements, Saladin is a bit easier but you really need to be at around -1/+1 for those, in my experience.

Did you already have any negative modifiers to start with, before the Japanese and Arabs converted to hinduism? Usually, the years of experience bonus should be enough to get you open borders with almost anyone early in the game... except sometimes for aggressive uncooperative leaders like Toku.

Would seem to me you'd best give up on any chances of converting them to your religion now, and just spread religion in one of your cities that needs the happiness bonus + organized religion production bonus the most. And be prepared for some tough times negotiating anything with either Saladin or Toku until you either convert to hinduism yourself, should it spread by itself to one of your cities, or until you can adopt the free religion civic.

grs
15-01-2006, 15:56
I had no negative modifiers from the start, but Saladin was the one who "stole" Hinduism from me early in the game and since I converted to Judaism shortly after that I have +1 peace and -4 religion with him. I was +1 with Tokugawa all the time, but since he did not sign an open borders agreement, I could not spread Judaism and now he is +1/-4 too.

Seems my strategy of spreading religions on my continent got severely screwed by Saladin getting Hinduism one lousy turn before me :(

grs
18-01-2006, 21:56
Nice turn!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006118205622_good turn.jpg
12.18KB

grs
25-02-2006, 13:39
Some wonders later.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006225122812_lighthouse.jpg
56.93KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006225122831_Kong Miao.jpg
71.46KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006225122850_Great Library.jpg
95.79KB

And the national Epic, which has no pic.

My map.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006225123715_map300ad.jpg
82.5KB

Stats.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006225123834_demo300AD.jpg
69.12KB

What is really bad, is that no one is trading with me :(

grs
26-02-2006, 13:27
What is even worse...
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006226122634_Arabs in Edo.jpg
99.12KB

Seems quite clear the Arabs will attack me. I do not fear them in particular, but it stops me from building infra and that will make me lose my advantage sooner than I hoped.

grs
06-03-2006, 23:16
The Arbas didn't attack. Their 2 axes just strolled around my borders, causing me to shift troops from left to right. They also caused me to build more military, which was a good thing (see below).

Meanwhile...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200636221141_Hanging Gardens.jpg
88.07KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200636221151_Colossus.jpg
55.06KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/20063622120_Notre Dame.jpg
65.5KB

But then the inevitable happenes.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200636221241_Tokugawa declares.jpg
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The two fronts I have with him seem quite save now. The eastern one is empty and the western is blocked quite well (I hope).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200636221517_western front.jpg
121.69KB
The worst thing is that I need to produce military now, while I could do forges and markets.

I will have optics soon and would like to send out 2 caravels with explorers then to get contacts asap. I will probably have to delay that :(

grs
07-03-2006, 12:00
Changing plans. On of my remote cities recently picked up Hinduism, which is the religion the Arabs founded and the Japanese adopted (see post 7). Strangely enough it is one very far from the holy city of Hinduism, but no matter what, I switched my state religion to Hinduism and revolted back to Paganism, since the 7gpt I pay for organised religion do not pay off with only one Hinduistic city. This enabled me to trade with Saladin. I got meditation, archery, construction and 110 gold for literature and code of laws. I now can build cats and horse archer. On top of that I have added an open border agreement, increasing my trade revenue.

I noticed that only two of my cities (the first two I founded) have foreign trade routes with Arabic cities. How is that calculated? Does it increase with the number of turns the open borders agreement persists of what is the determing factor?

I am still fighting a defensive war, since I want to take 2 or 3 towns at max, maybe even none. News from the front:

Plundered 3g from the mine (Tokugawa's iron).
Archer died attacking a chariot (>70% chance to win - grr).
Galley has destroyed a galley (<30% chance - it carried a horse archer and an axe - lol).
Axeman destroyed chariot.
Axe defends vs. sword.
Plundered 5g from fishing boats.

My tech tree:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200637105725_tech tree.jpg
75KB

I lost a good amount of production, but finally:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/20063710596_demo.jpg
69.93KB

grs
10-03-2006, 11:11
Some battles later in 960AD it seems most of the Japanese troops have impaled on my units hiding in the forests like Varus' legions did against Herman's Germanic barbars.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200631010756_front at Edo.JPG
103KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200631010813_front at Tokyo.jpg
77.74KB

Meanwhile on foreign shores.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200631010837_explorer1.jpg
47.79KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200631010849_explorer2.jpg
36.3KB

grs
10-03-2006, 19:51
Like expected I met the brown AI (Mansa Musa) and Darkness in 980AD. I exchanged Open Borders with the Malinese and bought Theology and Calender for Machinery and Literature (both techs already known by Darkness. He is up Monarchy (a 2 turn research) and Paper (I am 1 turn from finishing it now), while I am up Civil Service, Philosophy and Optics. He may have techs behind Monarchy and Paper I can't see yet (Printing Press and/or Feudalism for example), but he will have lost his trading advantage soon, I should be ok techwise.

I switched back to Judaism and revolted to Bureaucracy and Organised Religion. It seems probable I will take or raze Edo next turn. As far as I know Tokugawa has neither horses, not iron or copper left and is stuck with producing archers for now. I want to finish the main job before he gets to longbows.

I am a bit unsure again if I should go and rush Darkness. I could start Astronomy in 2 turns and the crossing does not seem very far. On the other hand I expect to have the stronger empire and could sit and wait for him coming.

Pastorius
10-03-2006, 20:34
Send a few missionaries to Mali, convert some border cities near Darkness and try to see what he is up to? (assuming you control the jewish holy city of course)

grs
22-03-2006, 22:46
The war with Japan is over.

I razed Edo, Tokyo and Kyoto and took Satsuma. After that I made peace with Tokugawa for 80g, 1gpt and his world map. He would have given me the city of Kagoshima too, which would have left him with only 1 town left. I also could have destroyed him easily, but I decided to invade Darkness.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006322214144_my_isle.jpg
107.63KB

I have met all AI, circumnavigated the globe and know the general layout of Darkness isle. All cities I inspected have only a single spear for defense! Darkness still misses Optics and I will have Astronomy in 4 or 5 turns. I will have a fleet of 10 galleys ready for upgrade and will fill it with maces, swords and few spears, cats and horses left from my war with Tokugawa. Many of them have a lot of experience (7 swords have level 2 or 3 city raider promotions). That should be enough to at least hit him so hard to decide the game (I hope so at least).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006322214133_darkness_isle.jpg
70.02KB

I profit from my GA that was started by a saved GA and a GP that was produce two turns ago.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/2006322214524_demo.jpg
69.97KB

grs
26-03-2006, 21:21
My GA ended now and the invasion force is almost ready. Some units need healing though and I have to turn off research for 2 more turns to save cash for upgrades. I expect to land in less than 10 turns.

Meanwhile Darkness offered to trade Printing Press for Civil Service and Philosophy. I declined of course.

Pastorius
27-03-2006, 17:12
Invading (the) Darkness is a good way to see more of the map ;)

grs
01-04-2006, 01:23
I will land next turn (24 units) and 6 more the turn after. I guess he is dead then. At least I hope so...

grs
01-04-2006, 16:29
This is what I sent to Darkness:
quote:The Indian people have declared war on Russia. We demand your immediate surrender or will raze all of your cities to the ground. To back up our demand and prove we are not fooling around, we razed the holy city of your so called "religion" Christianity and landed a large number of units on your western coast. In the battle of St. Petersburg one of our brave swordsman died attacking your spear from the sea. One of his comrades avenged him. We also enslaved on our your workers near Moscow.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/20064115237_St.Petersburg.jpg
49.39KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200641152819_Moscow.jpg
100.08KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/grs/200641152910_east_coast.jpg
62.34KB

grs
02-04-2006, 11:41
Darkness gave up. We will start a rematch soon.

Darkness
02-04-2006, 18:09
Congrats!

It seems I really have to pick up my play to at least have a chance in the rematch... :)

Kemal
02-04-2006, 18:26
Well done grs, nicely played, and thanks for the writeup too!

grs
02-04-2006, 18:31
quote:Originally posted by Darkness

Congrats!

It seems I really have to pick up my play to at least have a chance in the rematch... :)
Thanks! I think that was a learning game for both of us. Building lots of wonders in a game without any human player near and a mild AI level was a good idea to be sure. I guess the map type and difficulty was a big benefit for Gandhi. I expect the 2nd game to become very intense.