5 player from Stuttgart - SPOILER

[Markstar]

Alright, here a spoiler for the game that we started the weekend at Killers. All 5 teams are Iros and start with identical 25 core tiles. Horses and Iron as well as a basic supply of luxury resources are also there though the latter might vary. Anyways, here is how my core looked like:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2005719214633_Starting Position.jpg
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While I am pretty happy with that, other things did not go so well. Despite being #1 producer/researcher, I did not meet anybody for the longest time while the others were already trading like crazy. Also, by going for The Wheel first instead of straight for Philo I researched Philosophy in the same turn anarchokillers did but for some weired reason did not get a free tech. But they, working together with GrilledBanzai, already had CoL so that meant Republic for them. [aargh]
Not only that, they pretty much had the whole tech tree already while I was barely done researching my 2nd tech!!! [cry] Things certainly did (and still don't) look good, especially since due to clever negotionations, the anarchokillers kept the other teams from trading with me even after I met them. Why? Well, anarchokillers made an offer that I could not refuse: After finishing Phil I went, of course, for CoL to be at least able to get a decent government anytime soon. Now they offered me that I would get CoL AND The Republic if I went after Map Making...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2005719215840_Rep Trade.jpg
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At this point I had not met any other teams and since I was desperate, I agreed. Of course they immediately promised Map Making to the other teams which meant that when I finally did meet the others, they were already getting MM one way or another, therefore still making it impossible to trade for me. [xx(]

Anyways, at least two things work for me: I have one of the strongest economies which means I research any tech in 4 turns while still making a decent amount of money and I hope I can buy techs for a really good price from the others. Also, being in the corner of the map means that I should be able to expand and build up my military pretty much undisturbed.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200571922611_Stats 2070.jpg
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Too bad that in negotiations I told the others that I am the strongest economy (despite my score being relatively low due to my building the core cities so close to each other). That means they know I can be pretty powerful. And that is exactly what I intend to do - go for HBR in 4 turns, build up a considerable army and cause some havoc... [devil]

[Markstar]

Look what I got in the first turn that I received since switching to PBEM:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200571923732_Leader.jpg
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[jumpD]

I immediately contacted every team I know to ask if they were willing to trade any techs for me because the question is this: Do I build The Pyramids right away or do I wait for The Great Library and just get all the techs for free.

Those are the next techs that I lack and their costs:
Iron Working: 130
Math: 180
Literature: 260
HBR: 110
Mysticism: 90

Of course this means I also miss Poly, Construction and Currency.

But what do I do???

- With Pyramids I can certainly outgrow any team easily. But I am actually doing already anyways. [8)] And since the techs are so cheap I can research them at 4 turns and still make plenty of money. [sad]
- With Great Library I could save hundreds of gold which I could use for buying stuff. But I don't have much to upgrade and so I wonder how much I would benefit from that. Plus that would mean that in the Middle Ages they would go straight for Education and possibly even try to go after me first (alright, this chance exists either way). [scared]

Pyramids or GL? [ponder]

[romeothemonk]

I would actually suggest a different path. The most annoying thing you could do to the others is build the ToA. That way you have cultural borders that they won't, plus they can't keep any of your towns.
Other than that suggestion, Pyramids is good, so is Sun Tzu. If you can trick people into selling you techs, definitely Sun Tzu is the way to go.
Pyramids is the "safe" play, but with the other players you have in this game, safe just means you will get double teamed later on.

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by romeothemonk

The most annoying thing you could do to the others is build the ToA.
Hehe, yeah, that's true. However, I don't even want to get into the position where someone wants to abandon my cities instead of assimilating them. ;)

Right now I tend towards GL since I would simply save such a HUGE amount of money. Plus, if I play my cards right, I might even gain the biggest advantage of all from it: Research Literature -> NOT build GL -> set research to 0 -> wait until they are in Middle ages for, let's say, 15 turns (which I'm guessing will be in about 20). Until then just save all the money and by the time I finally do build the GL, I can upgrade all those Chariots that I have been building. Plus, I expect most teams already worked on Feud or Engineering and won't stop just because GL -> I get those as well instead of just getting the Education path. This is a risky route of course since I might end up having to research both after all. [ponder]

[romeothemonk]

High risk, high reward. The only major risk to your plan is someone else popping an SGL and screwing your plans.
That is kind of why I would push the ToA, as it puts together a very nice culture boost for you, and is the same as a free lux. I would definitely say that your proposed plan is much better than rush the pyramids in the capitol.

[Markstar]

I've decided to go with the GL-gambit.

Is there a reliable utility for calculating the tech costs? I have downloaded TechCalc 2.01 from CFC but I get the wrong results there. :(

[Markstar]

Grille & Banzai made me and offer for 4 techs (not Lit) for 330 (60% of my hypothetical research cost). Not bad imho but still, Construction, Polytheism and Currency would be much harder to aquire, therefore I think I'm better of this way. :)

anarres and Killer also responded to my trade initiative, however they wanted me to say what I want to pay.

[romeothemonk]

I would offer them 300 gold for the 4 techs. That way you have some options to work with. When you make contact with Matrix and Smalltalk, I think that you can have 3 bidders trying to sell you techs.

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by romeothemonk

I would offer them 300 gold for the 4 techs. That way you have some options to work with. When you make contact with Matrix and Smalltalk, I think that you can have 3 bidders trying to sell you techs.
Yep, I was thinking about that, too. But for now I have asked anarres and Killer for Literature in exchange for 100. I would not sell it for that price but maybe they will. Plus I don't really want to give them any money since they are probably going to be my first target. [devil]

[Markstar]

Turn 61:
- Just traded Literature for 100 gold with anarchokillers.
- Established embassies with Smalltrix
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2005817121131_Hoogkerk.jpg
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and GrilledBanzai
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200581712125_Thebes.jpg
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Interesting is only that both look to me like they are not 100% efficient (like 2 shields short of completing the MW, the extra food surplus). Anyways, I wonder who GrilledBanzai are going to war against. [ponder]

In other news: My plan is pretty much set, I think. Will build up military (chariots which I will then upgrade to MWs) until ~15 turns after the others reach the MA, then I'll go for either anarchokillers or Beam. Atm I tend to think Beam is the better target since he is closer and it might be easier/faster to get my troops to his territory.

I should also be fairly save against attacks in a few turns, I have 2 cities on chariots right now (will increase that to ~6) and once I see an attack force I will need 2 turns to upgrade the chariots. I would loose some outer cities but my core *should* be save. [scared]

[Markstar]

[party]

Great news, formed a permanent alliance with Matrix that should last until only our two teams are left. I disclosed all my plans to him (after he promised to keep them secret of course) so that means if he were to betray me, I can expect everybody to team up on me now. But I don't think that's going to happen.
I gifted him Map Making and Literature (I'll get IW in exchange - I don't need it but just to show the others that I am making some tech progress) and he agreed on making sure that the other teams will be trading the MA techs and inform me when the first three techs have been traded. [evil]
He also offered me military support so I am now confident that Beam and anarchokillers can be taken out fairly swiftly when the time comes. Only obsticle will be the Egyptians imo since they seem to be building up MWs and might attack Matrix before he is strong enough.

More good news: Stapel (who is working with Beam) initiated a chat asking me what I'd be willing to pay for him not razing one of my cities. I replied that Beam promised to leave my cities alone (which is true since otherwise I could have easily assigned units to accompany his warrior). We continued to chat and he disclosed some very useful information:
1) They are still in Despotism. [eek] Wow, I could/should have known/remembered that since I keep on checking F3 almost every turn, especially now that I'm building up military. And when he mentioned it I recalled seeing this back in Stuttgart but it slipped my mind until Stapel expressed his unhappiness about this.
2) I had assumed that they did that on purpose but it seems now that they are going to switch to Rep very soon which could mean more turns lost on anarchy = higher advantage for me in when building up my army. [devil]
3) Stapel said that they'd switch in 3 turns or so due to tech agreements which of course indicates (knowing that Matrix is finishing Construction (or was it Currency) very soon) that Beam has a deal with the others and they'll all be entering the MA shortly.

All in all very good news, now all I need is for Beam not to attack me within the next 6 turns or so (so that I can build some chariots and have enough money to buy more (and/or upgrade them to MWs)). And of course speeding this game up would be nice...[mischief]

[Markstar]

The save is finally moving again. :) But there are some really bad news - I seemed to have gotten all the techs that Matrix has offered me in the past instead of just IW as we agreed. Now of course that would mean I can't build chariot anymore which seriously screws up my long-time plan. [xx(]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2005102103115_1425 tech.jpg
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I am ABSOLUTELY certain that I only agreed to trade IW so this seems to be a bug (I actually had something similar with anarchokillers but in that case he just paid me some money back). I hope there is a way to get around this. [confused]