***SPOILER*** akots vs. bed_head7

[bed_head7]

My second PBEM, this time with two nearly identical continents on a small map with the map again made by Rik. He plays as the Aztecs, me as the Chinese, and we are in locked war.

It started off fairly well. We stayed even in score for a fair amount of time, and I was happy as he had the Agricultural trait and me Industrious. But he recently started pulling away, and at this point he is a good deal ahead in score. It seems that his score increase is based on his population being larger, as we have been mostly even in territory. He also mentioned that he is experimenting with looser placement, so perhaps he has fewer cities than me but they are all larger.

My bigger concern is that he has revolted to Republic now, and I am three turns from CoL (I do have Philo, but since I had to research Pottery first I knew I didn't have a shot). I had originally intended to go for Monarchy considering the locked war, but looking at tech costs for me I realized that he went on the path to Republic. I then reread his spoilers for similar games and it seems he generally goes for Republic. So I had to change course partway through. I don't know how many turns it will take for me to research Republic, but considering that I will have some discount in researching it second and that my empire will be fairly large, I hope I will be able to get it with a bit of defecit research in 20-25 turns. Of course, my empire will be larger so I will have longer anarchy, so an optimistic estimate has me out of despotism 30 turns after akots! I am in trouble, I know that much. The one and only thing I might have to even it up at all is that I will have riders. I just need to somehow use them before he gets cavs. If I can use them, I might still have an outside chance.

And now, a couple of pictures. Here is my entire empire (not the best pic, I know).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/bed_head7/20057414423_bevsak84a_mainland.jpg
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This should give an idea of what I have been building in my effort to keep up with an agricultural civ.

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Finally, the power chart, which doesn't look too awful at the moment. Of course, the score is pretty ugly.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/bed_head7/2005741472_bevsak84a_power.jpg
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[bed_head7]

Small addition. For some reason, I went for Map Making. I forgot that we weren't supposed to be able to reach each other until later. But I decided to build a galley and see if I could make my way over to akots' island anyway. I debated between wasting 30s for the galley or 50s for the galley and an archer, and ended up going for 30s. As luck would have it, my galley safely reached akots' island. My hope had been to at least force him to pop rush a couple of units in his cities, but just as I got over there, he went into anarchy. At this point, I am not sure what the plan is, but I just got first sight of his borders this turn (turn 89).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/bed_head7/200574234857_bevsak89a_galley.jpg
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[bed_head7]

Nothing much to show. It is now turn 110, I have been in republic for a couple of turns, so it looks like I researched it a bit faster than expected. Now headed for lit to get some libraries, and hopefully to make it a bit of a competition again. Don't want akots to get away with this one too easily. He apparently already has currency. I am up map making and ceremonial burial, I think.

I am considering trying to build the Great Lighthouse so a galley only has to be in danger for two turns in the ocean. And then do suicide ship chaining to drop off a stack of maybe 6-8 riders at some point and try to wreak havoc. Two questions here. Is this a good idea? And would it be considered an exploit, or by RBC terms, dastardly? There was no ruleset mentioned for the games, and I do not want to do anything that would upset akots. It is just that in the standard PBEM rulesets, ship chaining isn't mentioned, but I have read spoilers of some games where it has been.

[Rik Meleet]

Exploits are "exploits" because the AI can't defend against them. There are no AI in this game, so [evil]

Then again; I have fewer experience than you in PBEM...

[bed_head7]

What? How? I have finished one game, and have actually played turns in one other. I am in two others, looking to start two more, but haven't really played anything in either.

[Aggie]

I personally have no issues with ship chaining. And on a larger scale: you haven't discussed a ruleset, so there's no reason not to use non-honorable rules or "exploits". The one thing I really always payed attention to: stick to my human-human agreements.

PS: I would always discuss a ruleset with my opponent, either before the game or very early in the game.

[Ginger_Ale]

How many tiles is the ocean?

[bed_head7]

The ocean is nine tiles at is narrowest, I think, so I would have two turns at risk. Build as many galleys as I can, and then send out half of them on the first turn. Next turn, I send out half of the remaining stack, or a quarter of the beginning. Statistically, I should have one eighth of the original stack in each spot, so I can then safely transport my units over. The problem with this idea is it could be very costly. If it succeeds, and manage to raze a few cities, it will be worth the risk. If it does not, and akots massacres all of my riders, I just wasted 240s on galleys for each pair of riders that I sent over, not to mention the riders themselves. I can't afford to lose so much production to a bad plan, as I already have to handbuild granaries all over after akots got them for free.

[bed_head7]

Actually, I just checked it out, and there is one spot where it is eight tiles from sea to sea, meaning only one turn at sea, and that statistically speaking it would only cost 90s in galleys to get one pair of riders across, as opposed to 240s. Of course, my mapping of akots continent also revealed to me that he is keeping an archer statationed on the mountain right at that point, meaning he would see me coming the turn before I landed, which is no good. I am going to keep looking on the map, as there might be another spot around. It is difficult to tell at this point because so much sea is still covered by fog. Though in some cases it is possible to figure out by looking at his continent or mine, as the continents are identical.

[grahamiam]

90s = 1 Lib+ some waste. also, how do you intend on sustaining the attack? can you land close to his core or are you just going to waste some corrupt sci specialist towns?

[bed_head7]

The landing would by necessity be in core, as the continents are widest at that point, thus the ocean passages are smallest. I will go in and get some pictures to be able to better show what I am talking about. Also, I do not intend to skimp on stuff in the core for this idea. The starting positions are pretty nice, and it won't take long at all to set up infra in the core. I have quite a few techs to go until I get out of the AA and get chivalry, so I have a ways to go. My core will probably have courts, libraries, markets, and probably granaries in most too before I start working on this.

[bed_head7]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/bed_head7/200577215713_bevsak118a_zoomed_out.jpg
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The more I think about this, the more harebrained it seems. I want to land either between Chalco and Calix- or on the other side on the gems mountain. There are a couple of problems though. Last time through, the gems mountain was covered by an archer. That wouldn't be the end of the world, but that archer would see the galleys coming, which completely ruins it. Being able to land riders by complete surprise in the flatland is much preferable to landing them on hill or mountain if akots gets a warning turn. On the other side, between Chalco and Calix-, I have a feeling that cultural boundaries will have expanded such that there is no way to surprise them at all. Which presents me with some difficulties, and suggests to me that this whole idea is not worth the trouble.

Unfortunately, I feel I need to do something reckless and daring to get back in it, since akots built the Pyramids just a couple turns ago and is now pulling ahead even faster. I am having trouble coming up with anything I can do. I have a few warriors still around, maybe I could just stick in galleys and drop them off and hope to get lucky and take out some backwater town. We are both in Republic, so I might be able to cause WW if I do that I couple of times. I don't know. I am feeling very much trapped at this point, and now trapped am looking for a way out. I don't really feel like I could have expanded much faster, though a couple more granaries earlier would have helped. Researching Map Making before taking Republic was stupid, but since I ended up following akots in his research path, all of the techs ended up being much cheaper, so I might not have lost that much time in the end.

I have begun some serious rambling here, so I will call it quits for now.

[Rik Meleet]

What are your requirements for "a good landing site" ?
Defense ? -> Go for the mountains.
Undetected ? -> Go for locations where akots' borders haven't expanded yet in to the sea tile you need.
Quick damage ? -> Go for locations where you can strike at 2 or 3 cities in a single turn.
Permanent base ? -> Sneak a settler to a location akots has no cities yet.
Safe crossing ? -> Delay until the discovery of Mag or Nav.

[bed_head7]

Safe crossing is out of the question. akots will beat me to those techs almost certainly. Defense is nice, but not a priority. Undetected may not be possible at one of the points where their are only seven ocean tiles, which is a priority in order that my sheild wastage not be too high. With riders, quick damage is possible anywhere I land, most likely. And there is no way I could hold a permanent base. So basically, if I can do undetected with acceptable galley loss, I will go for, but I am not sure that it is possible.

[bed_head7]

I completely forgot to mention the fact that akots and I recently decided to disallow ship chaining and the like, so it isn't even something I can consider any more. He seemed to already have an idea that it might be coming though, so no big deal.

For a bit of an update on the game, akots built the Pyramids somewhere around turn 120. Since then the gap between has grown huge. In republic, 4 turn research of techs that akots likely already has has been extraordinarily easy, and I have been making about 150gpt which I have used to rush granaries all over. Actually, I opted to go for courts and then markets first in my core as I didn't want huge growth only to have to hire entertainers for lack of markets. But soon I will be able to rush stuff all over, as gpt keeps rising. Of course, there are only two more techs in the AA, so I will have to kick up the rate soon. Luckily, akots is still in the AA as well, so he hasn't pulled too far away from me.

[bed_head7]

It is now turn 140. I just completed the Forbidden Palace (yeah, I know, really late, but land grab lasted a loooong time this game), and akots entered the Middle Ages. I am one turn away from Construction, and after that have Mysticism and Polytheism, which will both take four turns.

Now, I havev a question for more veteran players. Do I head for Military Tradition, which in this case is the more defensive route, and then build up home defense of cavalry to counter the inevitable invasion? Or, do I get Chivalry and then head for Navigation and hope to do a quick strike? In either case, I want to research Engineering, as I need to replant forests and be able to cross rivers with penalty. Heading for cavalry means researching seven techs. Going Chivalry and then Nav is seven techs, but Engineering would be the eighth, and that really is necessary. Though I suppose I could research it last. Any opinions on this?

[bed_head7]

Yet another short update. akots just informed me that he has the biggest military right now that he has ever had in any game. Does akots bluff? I am concerned though. I have 50ish workers, and everything else is just for disband to rush granaries, courts, and aqueducts in more corrupt places. Good news is that with FP, even the far reaches of the empire are somewhat productive, though I am not positive that mining there was worthwile. I really should have irrigated and gotten them up in size, then mined. Oh well.

[romeothemonk]

Akots can bluff. Just remember he normally will win with ~12-16 offensive troops. He probably has ~20-25 horsies or knights sitting around.
I have perused his spoiler, but that kind of info wasn't there, and I wouldn't/couldn't share it if it was.
I would beeline for cavs.

[grahamiam]

well, he can't land till Nav (unless he suicides, which means less units) so his military info is probably just meant as a distraction. imho, you don't need MT, just chivalry and riders to squash any landing attempts till the IA. once you get cannons, riders will be lethal enough. just cover the high ground, forcing him to land in bad defensive positions. he won't research Nationalism, but will probably go for the other useful tech's (ie, RP) so Riders will work fine till then, no need for Cav.

building lots of graneries is a very good way to counter the pyramids. now, you need to figure out how to close the research gap.

[bed_head7]

At the moment, those nine turns he is ahead in tech may not be able to be breached. Especially considering that pop is 60/40 in his favor at the moment, though I am slowly closing the gap with my cash rushed granaries. I am hoping I can follow his research path for awhile and get a discount while he does all of his research full price. But it might be that he is still able to do four turn research at the beginning of the Middle Ages, which his superiority to my economy is not at all unbelieveable.

Thanks for the advice though, even if you two made different points. But it did allow me to make up my mind, to some degree. Unless with akots research path it makes sense to do something else, I will get riders and then head up to Metallurgy for cannons. At that point I can make a decision on whether or not Military Tradition would be necessary or helpful, and research accordingly.

[romeothemonk]

Consider the G.A. factor as well. You still got yours coming. You can really use that to your advantage.

[bed_head7]

Unfortunately, so does akots. Pyramids is the only wonder he has, though I think he may be building the Great Wall (disguised as ToA).

[bed_head7]

Now at turn 176. We were going quite quickly for a stretch. I think we went from 120 to 150 in a week, if that. In that time, I built a military, mainly of obsolete units. I followed akots through the tech path, getting everything cheap. He is up Chivalry and Navigation on me. I imagine he is now headed towards Cavalry, and while he does that I while do Banking first, and then I will resume my following technique. The plan is to make the Industrial Age one turn in tech behind akots, or perhaps even three turns ahead if he goes for Military Tradition.

You may be thinking "Why obsolete units?" Well, akots is too strong to take at the moment, and he has all the wonders to speak of and a stronger army. So,

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The whole continent's coast is covered. The hope is to beat him to key IA wonders through careful prebuilding and hopefully a small tech lead. I also hope that he joined most of his workers, thinking them useless at this point. Leaving me the ability to rail far faster. My only real shot is if akots invests heavily in taking me out in one fell swoop and then finds that that investment was wasted.

[romeothemonk]

Good plan dude. That is an awesome idea. You just forced Akots off of his game plan. Major kudos.

[bed_head7]

akots doesn't seem to think so. The turn after he found that his two dozen or so full caravels had nowhere to drop off units, he said

quote:Next. So, you think that if we play another 100 turns
to marines, this would make your chances better? lol,
OK, we can do that, no problem. If you wish so. But it
might change nothing however you wish.

I have to think my chances are at least somewhat better. If I can somehow build ToE and Hoover's Dam, I am in good shape. I don't think he will let me though, now, as he does still have the one turn lead and I don't think he wants to waste time on optional techs anymore. He also has specialist farms in corrupt places, where I have fewer cities with the hope that courts, police stations eventually perhaps will make them decent. We will see.

[bed_head7]

It is turn 227. I just built ToE and took AT and Electronics. My prebuild for Hoover's got screwed up though, as akots finally built Sun Tzu's, when we had both used it for prebuilds throughout the Middle Ages. So I could still be beaten to Hoover's, which would pretty much end the game for me. My hope is to build Hoover's, along with Factories and Hospitals everywhere, and get prepped to churn out units and find a way to beat akots.

[bed_head7]

Just got the save back, and it looks like I somehow managed to under estimate akots, even though I was sure for most of the game that I would lose. He seems to have stolen at the very least AT and Electronics, and probably Scientific Method and perhaps even Medicine, while researching Nationalism, Industrialization, and Espionage. Judging by his comments in his game versus grahamiam, he may even have Communism for Police Stations. Anyway, he beat me to Hoover's, which is in my opinion the game breaker for me as he already has me beat in all areas. To make matters worse, I moved my capital one tile so as to use the cow tile more quickly. By doing so I reached size 2 one turn earlier and also got more production, so I still think my decision was the right one. But I lost out on the Iron Works in the capital, which would have meant ~120spt in the capital if managed correctly and with Factory and free hydro.

My general plan for this game wasn't all that great either. Once akots started outgrowing me by such a huge margin, I felt a lot of pressure to try to make it up by any means possible. In this game, that ended up meaning settling food rich places farther away before settling decent spots close to home. Big mistake, I am sure, as that ended up affecting city placement of first ring cities, and in some cases sort of eliminated a first ring. Moving the capital also affected city placement rather severely, now that I think about it. My corrupt cities were mined instead of irrigated, which I normally know better than to do, but for some reason I thought they were going to be productive, and I was anxious to be able to declare my expansion phase over since I knew akots had finished his up before me.

So, I conceded. akots said "You are still very strong!" but I have a feeling he is just trying to coax me into playing so he can use his huge military against my pathetic one. Though I do now have a fair number of cannons/trebs, so I could probably knock out a decent sized force if I needed.

[akots]

Thanks for the game! And it is a great spoiler! Makes the things much more clear!

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by romeothemonk

Akots can bluff. Just remember he normally will win with ~12-16 offensive troops. He probably has ~20-25 horsies or knights sitting around. ...

Nope, was not bluffing this time. I have had iirc around 40-45 caravels with close to 80 Knights and rest MDI/Crusaders almost fully loaded (120 units total) which took sail towards Bedhead. Knights, caravels, and MDI were upgraded because I had Leo's. I also had enough troops at home to counter essentially any strike back. Having all tiles blocked as Bedhead did was a bit of a disappointment to me. If I were able to land, the game would be over in a few turns. So, I turned back with the whole fleet and disbanded a number of ships and half of all knights.

Indeed, that was a big waste of resources but it was OK, I've had banks and universities all over the place. Military (horsemen) was mostly built in the gap between Literature/Currency and Education/Baking. Cash was flowing in, so no big deal here.