Bedhead vs akots ***SPOILER****

[akots]

Map made by Rik, 2 players only, me and Bedhead (no AI). Level DemiGod, we each have our own continent. Continents are separated with +4 ocean tiles, so no safe passage till Navigation. There are some barbarians but very few. I'm playing as Aztec (agri+Mil) and BH as China (ind+Mil). Agri trait is somewhat more powerful but his UU is good whereas mine sucks in this setup. We also start in locked war.

Anyhow, I have settled right on the Gold hill whereas BH moved his settler to get cow on plains within capital radius. I'm going full growth mode with all cities size 3 pumping out settlers and corrupt cities far away pumping out workers. The land is very fertile (Rik was in a generous mood) ;) with lost of shields, luxuries, and other fun. I got first to Philo, picked up CoL as a free tech and am now 3 turns away from Republic. 4 luxuries already connected and another 3 luxuries will be connected soon. Plan is standard for this kind of map: Republic then Literature, start on Libraries everywhere to get to 4 turn research, build Pyramids and may be Great Wall (or Leo's) for Golden Age. If i can build Pyramids, game will be probably easy.

Also, it is peculiar if BH can actually catch up in development with Industrious trait. So far he is falling behind. I suspect he's not making enough workers.

Here is situation on turn 78:

F11 screen:



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/20057314922_bevsak78a.JPG
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Core layout (I'm experimenting with OCP here, aiming for size 12 cities in Ancient Ages or early Middle Ages):



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/20057315038_bevsak78b.JPG
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And overall minimap: Lots of land, really generous, apparently small size certainly not tiny.



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/20057315151_bevsak78c.JPG
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[Ginger_Ale]

quote:Core layout (I'm experimenting with OCP here, aiming for size 12 cities in Ancient Ages or early Middle Ages):

Mostly 3-tile placement doesn't qualify as OCP. ;)

Looks like this will turn into another bloodbath, good luck.

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by Ginger_Ale
... Mostly 3-tile placement doesn't qualify as OCP. ;)

Looks like this will turn into another bloodbath, good luck.


Well, I want to win it eventually.... OCP in true sense of this term is same as losing. ;)

But it is way less dense build I'm usually doing in these kind of games.

[Ginger_Ale]

I bet as long as you have 3 tile spacing on the coast for eventual lands, you'll be ok.

[akots]

The game is progressing well, we had a few powersessions and are now on turn 116. Aztec people finally managed to build the Pyramids last turn and are eating well which has greatly increased the potency of Aztec men to sire children. To put it short, they are breeding like crazy and I'm at 60% population. Bedhead is at 40% and we are even in land. Bedhead sent a suicide galley which made it through (some are just plain lucky) and is now cruising around my continent looking for something.

The core is all set up, Forbidden Palace finished, most of the cities have libraries and markets, building courthouses where appropriate and starting on chariots. Treasury is pumped up to 2000 gold and massive upgrade of chariots to horsemen is anticipated. Still 5 techs to go to Middle Ages, researching 4-turn sharp at about 20-30% which makes a lot of gold indeed.

Bedhead is also progressing well apparently and started building the Lightouse. May be it is to direct forest chop but may be there is a safe sea passage. There should be none, as we requested only a Navigation-safe passage from Rik but you never know. So may be there is something, I'm planning to find out shortly. Might be bedhead gets desperate and will make suicide galley rush. That would be very wellcome since it would waste a lot of resources and even if I lose a few peripheral cities, in the long run it should be deletirious for Chinese economy. Another wonder on the agenda in Leo's. Both to trigger Golden Age and to get cheap upgrades. I'm planning to start a prebuild on that shortly, apparently in the capital which can be upped to size 12 and about 25 shields per turn. Just have to double-check there would be no overbuild in this case. I'm sure I can keep a 4-turn rate through most of Middle Ages now. Just need a few more workers (having about 40-45 now and most of the core is improved including jungle and marsh cleared).

Here is F11 stats:



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/2005779220_bevsak116a.JPG
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And a pic of one of the core cities. That one looks very nice.



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/20057792326_bevsak116b.JPG
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[Rik Meleet]

I don't have the map at the moment (work) but I am absolutely sure there are sufficient Ocean tiles between the continents so that no ship is safe until the tech which allows save ocean passage. Even with The Great Lighthouse.

[akots]

So, he's just trying to scare me and make me build more military. But galley hopping is not impossible however (even though losses would be huge) and would be greatly facilitated with the Lighthouse. Still an opportunity to consider.

Lets say, to bring 20 units overseas (less would be just pure waste), he needs 20 galleys, 10 of which would be lost. This is only 300 shields. On the other hand, the coastal cities on this map are kinda low on shields, so would have to partially cash-rush them. Troops are not a problem though. Roughly, expence would equal around 1000 gold, very affordable indeed while neglecting upgrades and building units straight. However, his horsemen and swords would apparently face my knights. I'm thinking very positively, I can get Leo's and even may be upgrade the chariots straight to knights. Horseback riding will be sure the last tech to learn in the Ancient Age for me. The cities which make 15 shields can produce J-warriors. They are not a good unit but can be eventually upgraded to macemen.

[Ginger_Ale]

Actually he only needs 10 galleys for 20 units, so it's only 150 shields, yet still a big investment.


If there is CSOOOOOSC or less between the continent, he can use the following trick with TGL:
Send 20 galleys into the middle tile of the ocean (3rd of 5 tiles). In the interturn, 10 die, 10 live, give or take. Next turn, galleys from the sea move to tiles to the right, move units onto the surviving galleys, and go two tiles back to the sea tile and survive. Rinse and repeat. Or he can use the galleys that supplied the surviving galleys to use the same trick.

[akots]

Yes, this is called galley hopping. But it is not required, empty galleys will sink first and those with troops will sink last. According to you, he needs 30 galleys 15 of which would be lost. That is a bit too much imho even if really desperate. ;)

I also hope we are not allowed to use ship chaining. But I need to discuss this with bedhead.

[Rik Meleet]

This was the request in the map-thread: quote:Continents have at least 6 tiles of ocean between them, not possible to cross prior to Navigation. I am absolutely sure I took that into account when making the map.

[akots]

Quick update. We are on turn 154 now. Aztec have managed to build Pyramids and get ahead in tech racing by about 10 turns or may be slightly more (2.5 techs). It seems we are both on a 4-turn research rate. Because of this and horrendous number of workers (at one point I had over 50 of these little guys) and great riches of the land given to us by Rik, I've managed to build Leo's triggering Golden Age. I'm also building Temple of Artemis so that the corrupt coastal cities in northern and southern parts of the continent can expand their borders and use extra sea tiles.

The map is very rich indeed. I'm researching on Demi-God at 4 turns/tech, am building about 6-7 units every turn (mostly horsemen and galleys for updrages) and still making about 150 gold per turn with about 6000 gold in the bank. Rushing courthouses and aqueducts even sometimes markets. The power of centrally located Palace is huge.

Seems that Bedhead is doing fine as well. He though started to fall down on the power graph:



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200571555343_bevsak154b.JPG
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And here is mighty Aztec military (15 or so swordsmen and about 45 workers did not fit on the screen):



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200571555418_bevsak154a.JPG
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I've researched Feudalism, Engineering and Invention, will discover Monotheism next turn. Which makes it 5 techs to Navigation including Chivalry. This leaves Bedhead 25 turns to prepare for the invasion. I'm planning to field about 100 knights and almost same numbers of MDI for the first punch. I hope it will be enough to knock him off if there will be a place to land. He will certainly block the coast near the core but we'll chop our way through I hope. Just in case, I'll research gunpowder and up to military tradition. Golden Age is giving a nice boost to military production and income. He did not have his yet, need two wonders: something Industrious and Militaristic. I'm aslo thinking of having a prebuild for Copernicus and may be Magellan's but the latter is usually useless, there is not going to be much of the naval combat here, or so I hope.

[akots]

Update for turn 180.

I have built a decent number of knights and loaded them onto caravels and they sailed off to China. Alas, all the coastal tiles had been blocked there. For this, one needs only about 100 units even without shuffling. I'm not sure what does it change. I'm still firmly number one in everything and just playing a 100 extra turns to marines should not influence the outcome of this game. I'm having banks finished all over the place within next 5 turns while Bedhead is still blocking coast with horsemen and archers. I frankly wrote that to him. Whatever he will decide about that, I don't certainly care. But I would leave a couple of tiles for landing if I were him. Anyhow, that is a bit disappointing. I have expected more open attitude. Guess we would have to play that one to marines.

Edited: OK, got a reply from bedhead. He thinks he's buying himself some time and will be able to eventually outproduce me. I suggested we play to marines. We'll see how it goes.

[akots]

Moving righ along, turn 208. The situation is not that excellent in this game. I guess Bedhead had good reasons since he is desperately trying to catch up. I'm fooling around with this game and he's using it as best as he can.

I have wasted a number of turns on non-obligatory techs such as Navigation, Economics, and Chivalry. Well, it is not that bad completely. I've got Smith's which is a very nice wonder considering high number of cities we have on this map. Also, Navigation+Chivalry created an invasion threat and Bedhead had to build some military hence spending some cash onto the upkeep. But he has built lots of Libraries/Universities and is also researching at 4 turns. So, now he is 2 turns ahead in techs. We are in the Industrial Age apparently both researching Steam Power. There are a few critical things in that Age. First and foremost is Hoover's. It is huge and missing it would be really bad. There are at least 20 very productive cities on this map each worth a factory and free hydro plant in each just critical. Hence, I'm having 2 prebuilds and the third in reserve. It would depend on what tech Bedhead is researching and whether he has a prebuild for Theory of Evolution. I've spend about 2 hours playing one of the turns with calculator and tried to set up these prebuilds considering that I'm 2 turns behind in research and also railroads. Believe me, it is not an easy task. I even thought of building Sistine's to disable his prebuild for both wonders. Also, there is another very useful wonder, Suffrage. I'm currently thinking how I can get all three but it seems impossible. Suprisingly, it looks like the best way would be to go to Industrialization first and only then to lower part of the tech tree. I then can use Suffrage and Palace as a fourth prebuild and this might actually cover all loopholes.

Still perspective there is more or less Ok just because I have a lot of scientists (irrigated everything in corrupt cities) whereas bedhead mined all grassland in corrupt cities and might be trying to outproduce me. Well, time for mining there will come after rail roads are built for me. This would give more food and allow to switch some cities to shields whereas others would specialize on scientists. Or may be policemen, we'll see. That would be another huge planning turn probably rearranging all tiles in all cities. It would be also nice to have some coastal cities productive because this game will be decided by navy and marines in the end. Or ICBM as usual.

[akots]

Turn 218. Pressure is increasing. Bedhead had two prebuilds, one obvoiusly for Theory of Evolution (in capital as Sun Tsu) and another in some other city for Hoover as Palace. To neutralize the threat, I had to build two essentially useless wonders: Sistine and Sun Tsu. This left me with a single prebuild for either Hoover or Suffrage whatever would be left. Bedhead went straight into Medicine and is now one or two turns from Electricity. That is an expensive tech and I'm not sure if he can grab that in 4 turns. I probably could but I have 15K gold in the treasury. The capital is building Iron Works. Rik was very generous and gave us both Iron and Coal in the radius of the starting position. However, here Bedhead might have a problem since he moved his settler on the first turn to get the cow in the starting 9 tiles. So, might be he cannot get Iron Works in his capital. I have to check it out since if the map was rotated, not simply copied, he still might get that.

So, instead of trying to catch up which is probably barely possible, I went for Industrialization (Factories are nice) and then for the main goal: Nationalism and Espoinage. Then I plan to build Intelligence Agency in the capital (Tenochtitlan will be at 80 shields per turn in 3 turns and will build IA in 5 more turns). After this, shameless stealing of Medicine, Electricity, Scientific Method and whatever two free techs Bedhead would get is planned. Since he cannot get second prebuild, I then can either steal Atomic Theory and Electronics or research them at 4 turns and Hoover can be mine. I'm not sure if this evil plan will work out, anything can happen. But 15K gold might cover a lot, even a couple of failed espoinage attempts. These are anticipated and iirc, the spy mission flag is then reset which gives another chance for planting spy or stealing the tech depending on whether the spy was caught or escaped.

Other priority techs are Communism for Police Stations and Replaceable Parts for civil engineers in corrupt cities. On a clear thought, I might survive even without Hoover.

[akots]

Turn 227. Wow, that had been a very dramatic race. Bedhead, as expected, built Theory of Evolution. He apparently went straight for it. He picked up Atomic Theory and Electronics. Well, I know this now but I did not know back then. I had to build Sistine and Sun Tsu to neutralize his Hoover prebuild in the capital.

I went instead the evil ways researching at 4 turns Nationalism and Espionage and built Intelligence Agency in the capital after Iron Works were built. Of course, I tried to plant a spy immediately but failed. Meanwhile, Bedhead finished Theory of Evolution. I had to wait for 3 turns for the flag to be reset. That were the very nervous turns. In the end, this turn I managed to plant the spy, investigated Beijing, and have stolen carefully Medicine, Electricity and Scientific Method for about 2000 gold each. Then I went for another steal. And the agent got caught! So, I tried to plant another spy and this time succeeded immediately! Then I went for safe steals and got myself Atomic Theory and Electronics. And next turn my last prebuild should produce Hoover! Meanwhile, the capital built factory and is now at 100 shields per turn. I think I will get Suffrage there as well.

But overall cost is staggering. I mean the cost of Hoover. That was the price of underestimating the opponent indeed. Fortunately, I might be doing OK in this case but it was very stupid of me. I had to build 2 useless wonders: Sistine and Sun Tsu (1200 shields) and then spent 13,000 gold on espionage missions. That is a lot of resources. 1200 shields make 7 coal plants and 13,000 gold make another 20 coal plants. I could have built coal plants instead in all productive cities!

Anyhow, research set to Replaceable parts in 4 running at 90% science with deficit or about -300 gpt (still have 4000 gold in the bank). Starting on Police Stations in corrupt areas. But need civil engineers to speed up the builds. Then, can slow research race a bit and will probably go for cash 100% to accumulate more gold for upgrades and stealing whatever Bedhead will discover. I'm up Nationalims, Communism and Espionage on him. It might be, he will not research any of these techs at all. So, I can outgrow him certainly in shields and gold with Hoover, Police Stations and stealing.

A very dramatic game so far!

[akots]

A few pictures to make the description in the previous post a bit more "visual".

The glorious city of Tenochtitlan, making 120 shields per turn. Base production 40 + iron works 40 + factory 20 + hydroplant 20. There is a bit of a problem here since there is nothing to build. The most expensive unit is rifelemen for 80 shields soon will be infantry for 90. May be I'll set it to wealth (60 gpt is not that bad).



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200587123140_bevsak228a.JPG
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Our militaries according to F3. Bedhead did not learn Chivalry, so he has not a single Raiders. Also he might be not very willing to upgrade anything, will just probably disband these spearmen. It will be probably decided by nukes, so little help from any military.



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/20058712340_bevsak228b.JPG
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Next two pictures show Chinese core and my core. Bedhead has 34 cities, I have 48, most of them size 12. I have a few unused ocean tiles, Bedhead has somewhat more unused tiles. May be he is planning to research Sanitation, not sure. I have irrigated all corrupt areas north and south whereas he has considerable number of tiles mined. Also, I'm almost done railroading whereas he is still struggling (not enough workers apparently).



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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200587123946_bevsak228f.JPG
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And finally F11 screen:



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200587124117_bevsak228g.JPG
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[Rik Meleet]

What a game !!
Does Bedhead have an IronWorks possibility in his capital ?

[akots]

No, he does not. But he has it in another city: Shanghai. The city is productive but not very productive. I don't think that city of his makes more that 60 shields per turn with Iron Works. With Factory and Power Plant, it would be 80-90 spt which basically comes to the same 1 rifleman/infantry per turn as my capital can make with its 120 spt. But when we get to Modern Age, it might be more important.

[akots]

Well, Bedhead just resigned the game.

[bed_head7]

By the way, though I considered TGL, as you know, I was using it to defer a chop to another city at the time, and it doubled as a prebuild for a court or a market or on aqueduct, I can't remember which.

By the way, great job. I figured you knew that already. Bu even expecting to get beaten coming in, I did expect to put up a fight. And, if it would please you, I'll open up the coast and we can fight it out for a few turns just to make it definite, as holding the coast no longer serves a purpose as in my position I need to do something now. Interested?

[akots]

Well, it makes no sense with railroads. Also, I've disbanded many ships. It has to be continued to marines and probably nukes considering the fast tech rate. The problem with nukes is that I might be able to get them a bit earlier and probably can produce them in larger numbers. I'd roughly estimate 4 yours to 5 or 6 mine. And first strike would be to knock off your Uranium. That would be the most likely way how this game could have developed. Also with that many cities, I can hire lots of policemen and in the end would be probably able to use every shield out there with Police Stations built by Civil Engineers. Or use the citizens as scientists depending on what is the goal. This also means I can draft-rush more nukes/marines/bombers/carriers. That would be a tough game for your side indeed.

[bed_head7]

That is what I figured, but when I conceded you thought I had some sort of chance. Oh well.