"How to beat" thread [Archive]

arne1

27-06-2005, 20:59

Next weak I"ll have to play the leader of my league again. But this time it is a relatively strong team. last match he played at home (no derby) and I played away also not a derby. Next weak we are playing at my place and it is a derby. Last match our ratings were: me him
mid wretched(low) wretched(very low)
right def. poor(low) poor(high)
central def. poor(very low) weak(low)
left def. poor(low) poor(very high)
right attack poor(very high)poor(high)
central attack poor(low) poor(high)
left attack poor(high) poor(high)
I had halve a star more in total. My best forward will be recovered by then, but my second best is now injured.
What I am wondering now is: is it worthwile to play attack over the wings? Although I have no experience with this. And probably my central attack will be stronger because of my stronger forward playing agian.
And may be I should MOTS this one and PIC the next one, which has a disastrous(high) midfield which I should beat easily. But than again I"ll have to play him in his stadium. Winning this one will give me a reasonably big advantage and a very high probability of promoting. In my opinion he is one of the two serious contenders for the two promotion places.
I will be training playmaking this friday so midfield should improve. Or shouldn't I worry and just play my normal formation (3-5-2) normal?

Shabbaman

27-06-2005, 21:19

AOW is worthless unless you have very good wingers. Midfield is everything in hattrick, and you're already stronger there. Play both wingers towards middle.

arne1

27-06-2005, 22:18

socralynnek

28-06-2005, 14:59

One rule is: Make your midfield as strong as possible, but I don't agree with Shabba here, but I don't know your players exactly.
If you have decent wingers than play them offensively because with Winger towards Middle you will have a bad rating on the wing attacks.

EDIT: But I agree with Shabba that in your case AOW is really worthless because it weakens your central defense.

arne1

28-06-2005, 17:37

My wingers are inadequate at wing, scoring and defense. solid passing and poor playmaking. I could of course put in one of my trainees who is passable playmaking and inadequate winging and has no other qualities what so ever. So I have been playing these guys offensively untill now and was not planning to change that. If I understand it correctly good passing is reason to set a midfielder attacking?

Kingreno

28-06-2005, 17:47

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

AOW is worthless unless you have very good wingers. Midfield is everything in hattrick, and you're already stronger there. Play both wingers towards middle.

Midfield is important but not everything IMO. Most players that play both Wingers toward middle end up with a lot off posession and no-one to kick in the ball or defend againts enemy attacks.

Shabbaman

28-06-2005, 18:08

Sure, but not on this level. The game is more subtle than "midfield wins", thank goodness. WTM isn't a good tactic, I don't even play it myself, despite playing 3-4-3. But I think possession wins you the game on the lowest level.

Arne, if you'd desperately want to become champion, get some midfield (or whatever your liking is) trainees, train stamina until your midfielders all have excellent condition and then two weeks of form training (general). That's the fastest gain of rating without going bankrupt.
It's a bit dependent on your players though. Every new team has some valuable players, and I'd say you need at least a decent forward.

I have one you could buy if you have a million or 3 to spend ;)

Dell19

28-06-2005, 18:54

Why would anyone bother training general at this level? Training players should be the number 1 priority with the only justification for general training at high levels where training is less important.

arne1

28-06-2005, 19:37

This midfield trainees are allready in my team. And I did two weeks of stamina training so I now rate from poor to excellent, with midfield from passable to excellent (most solid). I tend to agree with dell here, because as I understand it the way to make money is train players and sell them. Getting thier form up is probably not that important for prices.
I have three passable scorers one with good passing and one with passable passing. I think that should be good enough. Althoug one guy is just ready to play again and an other one just got injured.
So in short I want to make money and become champion. In this order. I think this is achievable, because all this people playing against me still play 4-4-2. So I will dominate midfield against almost everyone.
Shabbaman: I would like to remind you of the fact that we start with 300.000 euro's. I already spent 250.000 of this on 8 trainees for midfield, a passable keeper and a passable coach. I earned 65.000 by selling my best midfielder (aged 31) and some loose crap. And now am loosing approxemately 5.000 a week. This should improve because everybody (sponsors and supporters) is "tevreden"(5, if lowest is zero). So clearly I do not have 3 MEuro's. And will not have it in any foreseeable future.
So I want to become champion with this team, without jeapardizing my training program and without going bankrupt. And with your invaluable help: I will!
Installing a new Governor!

Kingreno

28-06-2005, 19:38

Yes, training general is the stupidest thing one can do. Even when all form is lost, it is no guarantee whatsoever form will go up using general training, it may just as well go down, and since no skill is trained, you loose money...

Dell19

28-06-2005, 19:56

Form does have an influence on prices, just not as much as anything else. Theoretically it could be profitable since players on poor or lower form will generally sell at a slight discount. However really you are just daytrading and oping for a bit of luck that form will go up.

If you are training midfield ten you should always play 3 IMs, whether thats with 5 in the middle or 4 in the middle with just 1 winger.

Shabbaman

28-06-2005, 21:04

Like I said:

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

Arne, if you'd desperately want to become champion, get some midfield (or whatever your liking is) trainees, train stamina until your midfielders all have excellent condition and then two weeks of form training (general). That's the fastest gain of rating without going bankrupt.

If you desperately want to become champion this season, training general definately is a very smart thing to do. It has some serious long term issues though, but that medal in the upper right corner is priceless.

Dell19

28-06-2005, 21:11

There is absolutely no reason to become champion this season. Even not getting promoted wouldn't be a disaster sinc he would be much stronger next season with full training. You are right that it would aid promotion but the cost is far too high in the early seasons especially as HT actively rewards staying in a weaker league and destroying the opposition every week.

arne1

28-06-2005, 22:33

I do not think the level in divX is much higher than in divXI, both have a lot of newbies with weak teams. So I should be able to cope easily in X. Actually I just looked at midfield strength of division X and 8 out of 8 are weaker than mine. So I am not worried about loosing every match in X. So I am clearly not desperate, but since division strength is not much different I might as well go to X.

Shabbaman

06-01-2006, 11:04

I'm facing a tough match sunday, my opponent has a strong midfield (playing 3-5-2). I was wondering if I should play a defensive forward (solid PM, poor passing) or not. It weakens my attack considerably (my best forward is injured as well), and perhaps simply playing 3-4-3 with a strong attack would be enough. Suggestions?

Kingreno

06-01-2006, 17:52

Your opponent got his 31k TSI player suspended so his MF will be less strong. He also plays all players towards middle. IF you do anything I'd play a FTW on the side of your winger, and one defensive on the other side.

Shabbaman

06-01-2006, 18:30

And then play with a single forward, effectively?

My only wing capable forward is injured. Sigh.

Kingreno

06-01-2006, 19:22

Regardless of details which I cannot see, a player who plays WB's and Wingers ALL towards middle is easy to counter, or not? Focus defenders on the middle, focus offense to the sides. How you do that is your problem![lol]

Shabbaman

22-01-2006, 10:22

I'm undecided about todays match. Today I play my archnemesis, a 3-5-2 with passable (loooooowwww) midfield at home, thus about inadequate away. He might mots, dunno, he's a tactical n00b: he always plays with his right WB as midfielder (and 2 CD).
This leaves me with two options: beating him on the midfield with WTM (midfield inadequate + according to ht ratings), or with winger offensive and FTW (midfield inadequate --).

FTW gets me about formidable wing attack in the big gaping hole where he doesn't have a defender. Playing possession might get me nothing more than ruined chances by his solid central defense. Suggestions?

arne1

22-01-2006, 22:22

I like the FTW option,but you already played and won so you cna't have made a bad decision.

Shabbaman

23-01-2006, 06:44

I still owned him in the midfield, even with offensive winger. But I wasn't even close to the formidable wing attack Hattrick Ratings promised me: good low. Pity.

Shabbaman

23-05-2006, 10:16

Sunday I'm playing the team with world class central defence and titanic counter. He has only a wretched midfield, so there should be some possibility. Input please!

Kingreno

23-05-2006, 10:35

I posted this before but since there were no responces,'I'll repost::D

Your Division has only one real CA team, his ratings are very good however and beating him is by no means easy...

On CA in general, my two cents...

There are basicly two types of CA, Type one is where the team playing CA aims for a 49% posessionrate, and not more then that! This means they get a share of normal chances and for the opponents posession they get a chance for a CA as well. The second type are the anti-posession-fundamentalists. These chaps try to waste as little resources on posession as possible, all but a very very few chances are either SE or CA.

TYPE I

formations likely used are 5-3-2, 5-4-1. Possible are 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 but these are rare as CA-players are in general def-trainers so why waste the 5th trainingspot?.
5-3-2 is played here with 2 (or 3 by the lesser gods) IM'ds and one winger. It thus abandons one wing.
To beat: The good thing is that one wing abandonned, will likely mean a slightly lesser defence there, so attack there. However the middle will very likely be very crowded, especially if one of the IM'ds is defensive. Do try to take a very decent ammount of posession. Out of experience I know that when skills are more or less equal 65% posession is usually enough to win. tactics? Play one FTW on his "empty" wing with 3-4-3 and perhaps Play creatively! play both FTW with 3-5-2 as your solid-something central attack will hardly harm a SN Central defence anyways.
The 5-4-1 is played with 2 (or by some lesser god 3) IM's and 2 wingers (or 1...). It usually has the simgle forward Towrads wing as well.
To beat:Ignore your own Central defence and defend your wings. Offensively this is a very very hard to crack nut. all sides are heavily defended. Playing creatively may be wise. Also, gaining heavy posession is a good idea as his 4 midfielders should be his mistake!
the 4-3-3 variant with 2 IM'ds is very rare. Treat the same as the 5-3-2 as it too abandons one wing. It may even leave his CDef doable by a good CAtt.
4-4-2. well, no exp needed here! This is a very decent option perhaps good for using yourself one day. with CA played with no repositioned players: so two IM'ds.
to beat: This is a very strong overall line-up but excells nowhere. This is good and bad. I would go for a strong Central Attack against this one, but individual players matter a lot here. Logicaly if a team always plays his best defenders in the central area you should focus in another place. one weakness is again the "energy" put into posession by 4-4-2. Any decent 3-5-2/3-4-3 should deal with that rather easily.

TYPE II

Formations incluid 5-3-2 (98%), 4-3-3 (1%) and 5-2-3 (<1%).
The guys absolutely want NO posession so more then one Inner Mid is very rare. If they get a Wretched midfield, they are Motsing.

for all formations the easy thing to do is Don't waste your own energy on too much posession!!! Against a MF with Disastrous - wretched rating weak - inad is more then enough to get 75%+ posession! Don't waste OCD's, WTM's or FDef on MF!!!
Heck, why not even exploit this even more??? 3-4-3 with 2 wingers is a very decent option here! Or, also a very uncommon use, 3-5-2 with a IMTW (less MF, more winger)! Just don't waste energy on the one thing you do not need that much: Midfield.
As for tactics, the same rules apply as for Type I, with the recommendation that the Cdef with Type II CA teams is far more vulnerable due to the lacking defensive aid from the midfield. There may be chances there, especially for 3-4-3.

Hope it helps...

Shabbaman

23-05-2006, 11:10

Sorry that I missed your excellent, comprehensive post. Cookie for you! What you posted under type 2 (what I'm dealing with) is what I thought of as well. I wonder if my (low loow looow) excellent CD is high enough for his excellent central attack. Unfortunately my attack is probably too low to score against him. I have two inner mids that can play on the wing (offensively), and I think they'll probably will. I'm contemplating on piccing (new coach, woohoo). What about pressing?

Kingreno

23-05-2006, 11:58

Pressing? well, there are rumours that if the regular chance is not "pressed", there is a chance the CA will be. This is false, and thus I see no reason to press, but also no reason not to.

Shabbaman

23-05-2006, 12:25

If I'd be completely desperate for a draw...

Tubby Rower

23-05-2006, 12:52

I think that if you don't expect your attacks to amount to anything, then pressing might make sense when aiming for a draw. if your chances are diminished then his CA attacks will be too. If your defense can't stop his CA then you might be screwed either way.

I'll quote myself from another thread
quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

(keep in mind that I don't know everything and most likely know nothing)

arne1

23-05-2006, 19:40

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

I think that if you don't expect your attacks to amount to anything, then pressing might make sense when aiming for a draw. if your chances are diminished then his CA attacks will be too. If your defense can't stop his CA then you might be screwed either way.

I'll quote myself from another thread
quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

(keep in mind that I don't know everything and most likely know nothing)

that may be but I agree with you tubby.

Kingreno

23-05-2006, 19:56

Ok, here's what I'd do...

3-4-3 with...

one WB TowardsMiddle, 2 CD.

Winger-defensive with a speciality-IM/Off-IM/Off-WingerTMiddle with a speciality.

3 Forwrds.

This will:
-Get 80%-90% posession
-Give you a Formi Central attack, probably two goals, out of my own experience againts his WC Central Def.:D:D
-2 winges with a speciality, so probably one SE goal.:D
-a very strong central defence of your own. His strong attack may score once.[blush]
-one wing that is well defended, you probably shouldn't waste the defence on that wing by playing an offensive winger for inad wingattack vs. Magni+defence.
-one wing that is a gaping hole, he will score there, but only once.[blush]

The match ends: :D:D:D-[blush][blush]

Congrats on your first vic in the 5th!

Tubby Rower

23-05-2006, 20:12

woo hoo congrats Shabba... [party] and you were looking for a draw... shame on you.

Shabbaman

23-05-2006, 21:44

quote:Originally posted by Kingreno

Winger-defensive with a speciality-IM/Off-IM/Off-WingerTMiddle with a speciality

Am I reading this correctly?

winger def - IM off - IM off - WTM

If one of my forwards with passable wing gets miraculously in shape again I could (and should, because there's no drawback with passable wing) play with a FTW.

Kingreno

28-05-2006, 12:28

Hmm, still been thinking about it. I'd not waste any energy on the wing attack, that takes something away from Central attack or wing defence.

quote:winger def - IM off - IM off - WTM

Yes. Do you have a winger that can play defensive at all? Even solid def is a major contribution to that sides defence...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My own match...

I am playing a 13yr old somthing major daytrader who is being helped by several IVth class teams...he is trading roughly 15 players per week, and has some major reserves. He is training defending as I am but plays 5-3-2 with 3 IM's! and a excellent Central attack....he also plays Counter sometimes but I do not expect him to do that against me. No probs so far. I was thinking 5-3-2 CA with 2 WBTM --> Titanic central defence. and hope for a decent Counter for 1-0...

Now...he bought a 2M winger today...that sucks. he may play 5-3-2 with 2 IM's (like me) but his players are simply a little better all over except for my defense that is a little bit better then his, namely:
his: formi-magni-formi
mine: formi-WC/Titanic-Outstanding

Now, I cannot focus all om Central defence...so I am thinking 5-4-1 Pressing, 2 innermids and one FTW, playing one Off winger on that side. The otehr winger will play normal as he is not good enough to break a Formi defence. Is that an Idea? I do not like 5-4-1 CA as the 7% downgrade on MF is quite heavy then...

Shabbaman

28-05-2006, 13:48

I do have a mid with passable def/inad wing, but as the rest of my team he isn't in shape. My offensive wing (well, passable wing, brilliant PM, how about that for a winger) isn't. I guess I'm playing with an offensive wing and 3 IM, one of them defending. Or something.

Unfortunately my FTW is out of shape. No FTW FTW for me.

Shabbaman

11-06-2006, 10:17

I'm in doubt (as usual). I'm playing away this week, and if I don't pic I might win the midfield with a very slight margin. However, if I pic I'll surely win next week at home. Unfortunately my defense is out of shape, so I can't aim for a draw. I missed out on a magnificent defender (in wretched shape though) yesterday because I was out of money. He went for 1.2M...

Kingreno

11-06-2006, 10:39

1.2M for a Magni defender!!??? man...

ProPain

11-06-2006, 12:32

hmm, in that case I can buy 2 of those. Might be worth while to upgrade my wingbacks

So shabba how do you think your chances are winning at home next week if you dont pic?

Shabbaman

11-06-2006, 13:23

His home midfield is passable low, away that's inad very low. My midfield could be passable low away, and if I pic I'll get solid low next week, and inadequate this week. Unless the bastard's going to play counter all of a sudden (he can't/won't) that's a sure win.

The problem is that I don't know "who to beat" in this series to become 6th. I do know that I don't win much with just a draw (or two draws).

I'm leaning towards piccing now.

P.S. KR, TC just showed me another magni with weak form for 1.3. There are a lot of unsold players on the market now. Hurray for all the forward trainers, the defense market has crashed as well!

Kingreno

11-06-2006, 13:35

I know, hopefully solid/excellent passing and/or winger will still sell decent. That is World Class Defending added to that as well.

Shabbaman

11-06-2006, 13:43

Good secondary skills will help you sell players for good prices. The most important thing is probably setting a good starting price, and patience if you don't sell them right away. But people who are listing outstanding defenders with no secondaries for 1.5M are morons.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have trained that danish guy to supernatural scoring. I have no problem with the immense wage demands, but I should've trained a dutch forward. St00pid.

bed_head7

11-06-2006, 22:48

Shabba, would it make you feel any better to know that there are plenty of Americans who don't know the difference between a Dutch guy and a Danish guy? Perhaps you can use that to make a case for a wage break.

Shabbaman

12-06-2006, 06:48

I also have an American forward who only speaks chinese.

BTW, I picced and lost.

Tubby Rower

20-06-2006, 17:58

I have a team that I will face 2nd to last game of the season. Last season he rolled off 7 straight games and came close to winning the division. I can't figure out how I beat him in the 2nd game of the season, but I did 2-1. He has been on a roll lately and by the look of things it seems he's either training Scoring or General.

he has gained significant numbers in stats and is the leader in our division by at least 10 to 15 Hatstats. I've been looking at his games as they come up and I haven't been able to figure out what to do. I have a few weeks to figure him out but I figured that I would post here to hopefully get some help from you guys.

He's not a bot because he's been playing friendlies, but he's pretty much played the same line-up for the past 4 league games.

EDIT:: I forgot the team name .... CSKA_777 (225290)

arne1

21-06-2006, 21:49

I have an idea why you won 0-4. you were damn lucky! I have no idea anymore what your players are like, but his weakness lies on the midfield and on side defenses. So it might be a good time to play 3-5-2 with two strikers to wing and two attacking wingers and play wing-attack. Now I am disregarding what you are training. If you are training scoring this might not be so wise since you need to play 3-5-2 in two freindlies to get it up to excellent and so it will cost you 3 trainingspots.

but in general I would strengthen my midfield as much as possible to keep him from getting chances.

Tubby Rower

22-06-2006, 12:24

I'm training GK which keeps me fairly flexible. I realized early on that my team has started with a significant amount of luck. Now I'm undefeated in league play (only drawing against the last seasons #1) with 3 bots ahead of me in the schedule. I've been loving the 3-4-3 but I have been mixing it up a little with changing sides that my winger is on and sometimes playing with both wingers.

If I play 3-5-2 with strong wing attacks should I play AOW? I still don't fully understand the AOW & AIM. I understand that chances are given from the middle to the wings in AOW and vice versa on AIM. But if you play a FTW, then does his chance come from the middle or from the wing?

Tubby Rower

22-06-2006, 12:40

deleted due to server FIA

Kemal

22-06-2006, 13:05

Chance distribution isn't connected to individual player orders, so playing a FTW has no impact on where you're chance will take place. AOW/AIM slightly deviates the standard distribution of chances, which is something like 25/25/40/10 for right wing/middle/left wing/set piece respectively.

Of course, playing a FTW does help to increase the chance that chances on the wing will be converted in goals, should a chance arise on that wing via the random distribution.

Tubby Rower

22-06-2006, 13:42

if you look at CSKA_777's latest two matches vs SC Bridgeview, he posted 2 clean sheets and SC Bridgeview tried both CA and AOW. I'm not sure my midfield could get too much higher than his wretched (low). So is the 3-5-2 with 2 FTW still a valid call or would 4-3-3 or 5-3-2 be better?

Tubby Rower

22-06-2006, 13:48

deleted due to server FIA

arne1

22-06-2006, 18:30

tubby, stop repeating yourself! an extra midfielder makes quite a lot of difference. If I remember correctly his central defense is quite good, so you would not even make much impact on that with tree strikers.
So better try fight the batlles you can win on the wings and on the midfield.

Tubby Rower

22-06-2006, 18:52

I didn't mean to repeat myself.. I kept trying to get through but the server kept screwing things up.. I guess a few got through without me knowing about it.

ok. I think that I understand now.... 3-5-2- it is. Thanks for your help. I'll shut up now.

Tubby Rower

23-06-2006, 12:48

I plugged in my team to a 3-5-2 formation with the FTW into HO!. if the match was played now I'd stand a 93% chance of winning (and that's by a significant margin like > 3 goals). Granted that it is his team today and my team today, but I think that I'll be ok.

I also told his next opponent to try this strategy. I'm not sure if he has the players to put up a fight, but it would be nice if CSKA had one more loss before I meet up with him. Ok I'll shut up again.

Shabbaman

23-06-2006, 13:18

If that bulgarian guy finds out how to use tactics before that, you're screwed. BTW, don't forget that AOW weakens your wing defense.

Tubby Rower

23-06-2006, 13:29

I know... It's very curious that he most always plays 4-4-2. He plays 4-3-3 for his friendlies most of the time. but in all of his matches he has never used a tactic other than normal. I'm doing my best to mix my formations up in order to not allow people to do to me what I do to them.

socralynnek

23-06-2006, 13:51

Shabba, AOW weakens the central defense, not wing defense.

His weakness is his midfield, so a 3-5-2 with one WTM takes away almost all of his chances, especially because you play at home. Otherwise you can get problems if he MOTS the match (if it can secure your title, you might think about MOTSing too, although then you might lose your last game)

His centrla defense is not bad, but I don't know if your players passing skills are high enough for a decent AOW, so it might not be worth the loss in CD.

Shabbaman

23-06-2006, 15:04

Sorry, mixed them up. But you might want to reposition a wingback to central defense.

Tubby Rower

23-06-2006, 18:15

Well his last match is against the current 2nd place team. My last one is against the current 4th place team. So it will be a great couple of weeks for the fans.

I might MOTS both of them if it looks like I can win and auto-promote. I've PiC'ed nearly all of my league matches to date missing only one.

Shabbaman

23-06-2006, 18:34

If you're sure you'll win anyway you might want to pic. A huge TS might do wonders in the CDZ cup ;)

Tubby Rower

23-06-2006, 18:42

Yeah I'll finish 30th instead of 31st. (BCLG already has 32nd reserved [lol] )

Mistfit

01-08-2006, 21:51

Never Mind [:p]

Kemal

01-08-2006, 21:58

I would like to say that giving info and tactics via this channel is dangerous, considering that bed_head 9 seems to be on good terms with your opponent... and he reads this forum as well.

Don't want to imply that bed_head would actively give info to the colonels or anything, but informing him of this site does seem to be a logic course of action I suppose. :)

Shabbaman

01-08-2006, 22:06

Get yourself a guy with world class set pieces and you're done.

Kemal

01-08-2006, 22:09

Hopefully KR will give you some tips as well.... that way I can use them for my upcoming cup match against him, which atm I feel like I'll be losing big-time again. :D

akots

01-08-2006, 22:10

Well, you can try going all into midfield like with poor very high which is enough to gain possession and try to improve attack or defence. If you have any savings, it might be a good time to spend them on one or two decent forwards with some winger skills. Scoring in the middle seems to be pretty hard but with FTW there is a chance if you can get your wing attack to inadequate or passable. I guess that means you have to have some wingers on offensive there as well. So, IMVHO, 3-5-2 might work or 4-5-1 with FTW and offensive winger on that wing.

Kemal

01-08-2006, 22:24

I guess there's no need anymore for info now? ;)

My final say on the topic: If you'd like to do well in the qualifier, I'd heavily advise against training stamina this week, I can't recall what your post said originally (whether it was this or next week), but the form drop is horrendous.

Mistfit

01-08-2006, 22:47

nope the stamina will start with the Q match...

good call though.

arne1

01-08-2006, 23:17

quote:My final say on the topic: If you'd like to do well in the qualifier, I'd heavily advise against training stamina this week, I can't recall what your post said originally (whether it was this or next week), but the form drop is horrendous.

I heard you made your fortune training stamina,, but I was under teh impression that the from drop is mainly caused by the off-season (only playing 1 match a week), but you claim it is a sever form drop, because of stamina training. how bad?

@Mistfit, 3-5-2 with 2 FTW can get you up to solid wing attack, for this I used the following players: FTW formidable/solid (scoring/wing) FTW2 formidable/inadequate/solid (scoring/wing/passing) wing excellent/inadequate (wing/passing) wing2 solid/inadequate (wing/passing) wingback passable (wing) and wingback 2 inadequate (wing). I only listed the things I think are importan for this. I played it my last league match against a defensive team.

Kemal

02-08-2006, 00:02

I can provide more info on that drop in a few weeks as I need a stamina training this offseason myself... from what I recall of my stamina training days, I had regular -2 form drops and the majority of my players at weak or lower after a few weeks of stamina training. But back then, I was relegating anyway so that wasn't a problem... If you want you could check out my team ratings of my first few matches, and be horrified by the results of stamina training (and bad players, I admit) on ratings.

arne1

02-08-2006, 01:26

quote:Originally posted by Kemal

I can provide more info on that drop in a few weeks as I need a stamina training this offseason myself... from what I recall of my stamina training days, I had regular -2 form drops and the majority of my players at weak or lower after a few weeks of stamina training. But back then, I was relegating anyway so that wasn't a problem... If you want you could check out my team ratings of my first few matches, and be horrified by the results of stamina training (and bad players, I admit) on ratings.

I only did 2 weeks of stamina in season in the beginning and the rest all in the off season. I think I have data from since I started myself I just need to analyse it. If I want to know the answer, and well I am just plain lazy.

bed_head7

02-08-2006, 01:41

No need for me to be concerned about running off and telling that guy about this forum. The limit of our contact is posting in some of the same threads in the USA conference, and my guestbook entry was mostly in response to what he said in the forum about his Q-match looking tough.

BCLG100

22-10-2007, 14:15

Ok how do i beat this team, Westgate Harriers (60717).

I assume i'll need to buy another goalkeeper to replace my injured one and i guess i'll have to MOTS but anything else i can do?

Aggie

24-10-2007, 09:48

Your midfield is 50% weaker than his midfield. I guess that if you MOTS and if you would have three inners mids, two offensive backs, a winger towards middle and a defensive forward that you still will not match his midfield.

If you can do nothing else than buying another GK I'd regard this as an extra training match.
I wouldn't even buy the keeper if I were you.

You would need 2 very strong midfielders at least to add to your team to have any chance. If you would promote and not improve your squad drastically you'd be fighting against relegation.

Tubby Rower

24-10-2007, 12:13

The good news is that at the end of the season you could buy really strong players for cheap as teams might not be able to afford their salaries during the off season. I'd give a look around before you completely give up. But alas it might boil down to Aggie's statement of an extra training match.

Aggie

24-10-2007, 13:29

I have been trying to buy a couple of cheap players (just like I did last season), but prices only appear to go up up up...... Having said this I only looked for young players and these may be worth more due to next season's changes.

arne1

24-10-2007, 23:31

quote:Originally posted by BCLG100

Ok how do i beat this team, Westgate Harriers (60717).

I assume i'll need to buy another goalkeeper to replace my injured one and i guess i'll have to MOTS but anything else i can do?

You either need to strengthen midfield or defense considerably. It all depends on what kind of players you have available allready.
If you have suitable offensive cental defenders and a suitabble defensive forward, you could play 3-4-3 with 2 ocd's and a dfw or two
(your attack will still be strong enough with 1 dfw, defense you will hopefully not need so much, because midfield is a bit stronger.
If you have enough defensive capabilitys (which I sincerly doubt) you could play a 5-2-3 counter with wings if your defense is strong and with midfielder if your defense is not so strong. Another option is to play all defensive players and play pressing and hope for a fluke accident.

BCLG100

24-10-2007, 23:42

So in short as i only have 16 players, one which is my coach, one which is my goalie and 5 strikers, im not going to be able to do them things you just said arne?

is it even worth me buying a new keeper for the quali?

Aggie

25-10-2007, 08:26

quote:Originally posted by BCLG100

So in short as i only have 16 players, one which is my coach, one which is my goalie and 5 strikers, im not going to be able to do them things you just said arne?

is it even worth me buying a new keeper for the quali?

Indeed it looks like you will not be able to do the things arne suggested. And indeed, I would not buy that keeper if I were you.

Tubby Rower

25-10-2007, 12:20

If your defense is lacking it might not hurt to go looking for a cheap GK that is still relatively young (~24 - 26) It'll help in the long term

BCLG100

25-10-2007, 14:41

Hmm i only have 170k in the bank, i'd prefer to wait and save up some cash and buy say a formidable goalie or similar instead of just another excellant, im not even sure my cash would be able to buy an excellant goalie, ahwell looks lik another year in VII :(

socralynnek

25-10-2007, 15:02

His attack is quite weak. But I think getting to a defense rating which stops almost every attack of him is out of reach for you, isn't it?

If you have enough decent defenders, playing 4-4-2 CA might be an option with your best defenders playing def on the wing and your inner mids playing defensive too if you have someone with def skills. But still, you'd need to get about twice of his attack ratings on each side to have a good chance to stop most of his attacks.

Otherwise you'd need to get close to his midfield rating whoch might be impossible without lots of money.

Aggie

25-10-2007, 15:08

quote:Originally posted by BCLG100

Hmm i only have 170k in the bank, i'd prefer to wait and save up some cash and buy say a formidable goalie or similar instead of just another excellant, im not even sure my cash would be able to buy an excellant goalie, ahwell looks lik another year in VII :(

An excellent GK is about 300K euro these days...

BCLG100

25-10-2007, 15:42

Yeah but i work in real money £££ ;)

Your all suggesting these new formations, wouldn't my players have had to have done them before? just right now they only had had experience with 3-4-3, if i switched wouldnt my team be pants?

arne1

25-10-2007, 15:58

socralynnek

25-10-2007, 16:20

4-4-2 is always possible without confusion, BCLG.
That is why I proposed it.

3-4-3 is only suited if you can get close to his midfield (or if you have a real good defense with just 3 defs but I doubt that)

BCLG100

25-10-2007, 16:25

Ah right ok, problem is i only have 3 defenders, 2 of which i would say are any good- one has passable defending, the other 2 are at least excellant i think.

I've got 4 inner mids and 1 winger

then i've got 5 forwards
so what your suggesting is put my winger in say left back or right back or something, 3IM's and one towards middle then 2 strikers?

arne1

25-10-2007, 17:08

quote:Originally posted by BCLG100

Yeah but i work in real money £££ ;)

Your all suggesting these new formations, wouldn't my players have had to have done them before? just right now they only had had experience with 3-4-3, if i switched wouldnt my team be pants?

If you play 5-2-3 you do not care about midfield and that is what suffers if you get confusion. So that does not really matter. But you will need 5 defenders and a decent goalie to do that, and you have neither at this point.

Hattrick is just a bit slow in adjusting the exchange rates. Since making a dollar the same worth as a euro is ridiculous. what a pound is worth is to insignificant to even remember.

BCLG100

07-11-2007, 01:25

Fernwood (954124)

Any ideas folks? looks like he packs the midfield out but i think my attack and defence are better than his.

well i know my attack is a lot better but my defence is similar i think.

Aggie

21-02-2008, 07:27

As always alltid had my cup opponent wrong. This time in my favour though.

I'm playing a derby vs a weird team (AFC BaArsjax (764326)). They promoted to the VIth league with an average rating far below mine (I promoted to the VIIth). Also they haven't been playing friendlies at all.

I'm thinking about PiC-ing this game. With a PiC I should should have an inadequate midfield at least. Is this reasonable? After all I would be delighted to advance in the cup (would be a first), but the league has the priority.

Tubby Rower

21-02-2008, 12:16

what kind of leadership does your coach have? if it's less than inadequate then I haven't seen any improvement in the past when PiCing.

That guy has a pretty good defense (inad/excel/inad).. .If I were you I'd leave it normal as that would give you theoretically more chances to bust through one of the wings.

Aggie

21-02-2008, 12:52

quote:Originally posted by Tubby Rower

what kind of leadership does your coach have? if it's less than inadequate then I haven't seen any improvement in the past when PiCing.

That guy has a pretty good defense (inad/excel/inad).. .If I were you I'd leave it normal as that would give you theoretically more chances to bust through one of the wings.

My coach has inad leadership. Last season PiC-ing really boosted my team for the upcoming games. That said nowadays PiC-ing also isn't good for supporter mood...

socralynnek

21-02-2008, 13:42

If you can constantly PIC one game per week than you can keep high TS even with an inadequate coach.

sz_matyas

21-02-2008, 17:52

I don't know how much PiCing will hurt supporter mood, but they did comment that it only matters if you don't win. Also I'd be willing to trade a little fan mood for an extra W or 2

Aggie

26-03-2008, 12:38

I have two tough away matches and after that two easy PiCs. I'm going to MotS the 2nd tough match, but what should I do with the first (vs JaFMs - 814854)?

I expect JaFMs to MotS and I won't. This was their strongest game:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2008326123255_JaFMs.jpg

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2008326123814_JaFMs stars.jpg
34.85*KB
I was planning to play 3-5-2 (excellent) because my midfield would be at least as high as that of JaFMs. Also their offense and keeper were weak.

But now they bought a 6 star FW and this will boost the attack.
Also during friendlies they plays CA (excellent in it)

Should I consider playing 4-5-1 (solid)?

This is -according to Tomattrick- my team when playing 3-5-2 (one forward defender):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200832612363_LA 352.jpg
40.7*KB
This is my team when playing 4-5-1 (two forward defenders):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2008326123630_LA 451.jpg
41.54*KB

Tomattrick is a bit conservative and I will probably have slightly better ratings (especially attack).

Should I consider having a winger towards middle?

socralynnek

26-03-2008, 13:22

Hmm, don't expect him to have a similar lineup as in that match. He adapted to the opponent who had no wing, so I'd expect him to have a more equally strong defense.

I'd definitely consider a WTM or maybe even both. Winning the midfield is essential if you think his central attack will eat your central defense.

I might take a deeper look tomorrrow.

Aggie

26-03-2008, 13:32

Thanks Ynnek. I checked his last 6 games and he played them with 3 CD's... Also his two best mids are now 0.5 to 1 star stronger than in above example.

sz_matyas

26-03-2008, 15:26

I personally would play 4-5-1 as you will have a hard time overcoming his central defense. This gives you the added advantage of negating his new forward (helps central attack, but extra defender helps central defense). I think you are right to avoid MoTS as there are too many ways in which that wouldn't help you (such as his playing CA).

Using the classic hit'em where they ain't strategy is the way to go here.

arne1

26-03-2008, 17:48

If he is going to play 3-5-2 with three cd's, I would try to win midfield and go over the wings. Of course you need the palyers for that.
I would field a 3-5-2 with two WTM's and two FTW's. This of course only works when you confortably win midfield and you win over the wings. If the wings are not strong enough you can strengthen them by offensive wingbacks. To be able to afford this you need to win midfield by more than 60%, I think.

At our level winning midfield is key.

For this of course you need two FTW's and two WTM's. If you do not have those you can play a similar 4-5-1 with one FTW and one WTM and offensive winger (on different sides) two offensive cd's (I think you have those) probably a wing back offensive on the FTW side, So you win attack on both wings. If you think you can only win one side of the wings, concentrate on one side with FTW and offesive winger and make sure central defense is strong. 3 central defenders and one wingback towards middle seems like a possibillity.

Aggie

27-03-2008, 07:47

Thank you all and certainly arne!

My two FW's have winger capacity (solid and passable) and the passable winger also is passable in passing.
My winger are only passable and inad in PM.
My best defender is weak in PM. My 2nd and 4th defender are passable and solid in PM. I not liking the idea of fieling my 4th defender (formi) instead of my best one (brilliant) to boost midfield by 0.2 points. Am I right there?

I have tried a couple of suggestions by arne in Tomattrick. I will at best get 53% of midfield. I should have about 8.5 there (considering he gets 6.0 and 8.5 divided by 14.5 = 60%) and that won't be the case.

This is what Tomattrick says about 3-5-2, 2WTM, 2FTW, 1 OCD:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200832774311_LA 352 2FTW.jpg
39.33*KB
This about 4-5-1, 1FTW, 1WTM, 2OCD (focussing on both wings):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200832774542_LA 4-5-1 FTW 1WTM 2OCD.jpg
40.44*KB
And this about 4-5-1, 1 FTW, 1 WTM, 2 OCD (focussing on one wing):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200832774626_LA 4-5-1 FTW 1WTM 3CD 1wing.jpg
39.73*KB

Am I right in thinking that I should go for 4-5-1, concentrating on one wing?

And should I 'attack on wings'? This would take a point of the central defense rating...

socralynnek

27-03-2008, 08:44

How good is Tomattrick considering the new engine?

BTW, your math is wrong in two ways... If you count his midfield as 6 then you'd haveto get 9 for 60%.
But AFAIK you should subtract 1 from all ratings to get the percentage as disastrous min is counted as 1-1.25 by all the tools while HT counts it as 0-0.25. That means if he gets 5 (passabel min), you'd have to get 7.5 (excellent high).

So, if you can win midfield only by a small margin, that means that it is quite likely that he might get 4 or even 5 chances (3 is also quite likely). That should mean that he doesn't play CA as he'd take away as many chances from himself as he'd win through that.

So you have two options. Either win defense on all three sides (best by a clear margin) or cocentrate on two sides of attack to win these to convert your chances. A combination of both is also possible. Why is your left defense weaker when you focus on the other wing? If that wouldn't be the case I'd o for that option as it will also help you if he manages to win the midfield instead of you (e.g. by a WTM) If you focus on just one wing, AOW might hurt you more than it helps you. But I have no experience with AOW.

Aggie

27-03-2008, 08:53

Thanks Ynnek. The reason why my left defense was weaker in the last example was because I had 3 CD's and no WB on the left. I could get that left defense at 6.5 and CD at 7.1 if I change that.

Also tomattrick appears to be slightly on the low side compared to the real stats. But I know that on Monday !!

arne1

27-03-2008, 11:45

looking at your options I would pick 4-5-1 ont tow wing with AOW.
You will have midfield, you are slightly better in all defense area's and you have two attack ratings higher than his defense.

How to arrange your defense depends on how you expect him to play.
If he always plays the same way, teh selction you made would normally yield you victory.
He might however mots and use 2 wtm's just to win midfield in that case you need to play with 3 cd's, to keep his only attack, that is going to get chances, from converting on those chances.

If you can guess right what he is going to do, I predict you have 75% chance to win. If you are wrong I expect it to be 50/50

Aggie

27-03-2008, 12:58

Thanks you arne. I went even further back in the history of JaFMs. The club only played counter-attack once in the past two seasons(last match in previous season). However they sold two of their strong backs. Also they never played with WTM... Here's hoping that they will keep on doing what they are doing!

I'm already happy with a draw though. If I then can win the next game I am a very happy man. I would then end the first half of the season (with 4 difficult away matches) at first place.

Aggie

23-06-2008, 08:25

My next Cup opponent has strong players, but they are in bad shape. Looking at yesterday's stats, I am thinking that I could PiC the match (I'm at home). Is this a reasonable idea?
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200862382526_Aksaray ratings.jpg
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200862382544_LA ratings.jpg
FWIW I have a weak leadership coach and I will be PiC-ing Sunday's game as well.

barbu1977

23-06-2008, 14:56

It it was my team, I would be playing normal, but that depends on other stuff like standinng in the league and chaces that your opponent be MOTSing this game.

But, to me, with those ratings you could be unlucky and loose.

Yet, I'm not that good in this game.

Aggie

24-06-2008, 09:05

Thank you for your comments anyway. It made me think.

socralynnek

24-06-2008, 10:11

Just looking at your picture posted, I'd say it is OK to PIC.

That is, if he for a long time didn't play with more than 3 midfielders (seems like he played with 1 winger) and didn't PIC on Sunday.

Did you PIC that match you posted as well?

Aggie

24-06-2008, 11:43

He has played 3-4-3 for ages. I'm almost sure he didn't PiC. His best midfield ever had 6.25 in a home match and his players are now out of shape.

I also didn't PiC. This first league match was a crucial one to avoid relegation, playing a direct competitor.

socralynnek

24-06-2008, 12:31

Alright, that means that your midfield with almost same lineup and a PIC should give you should give you something like 5.8 - 6.0.

If he plays with 3-4-3 with one winger it means, he will have maybe something like 4.2 or so. Which would give you about 57% or so posession (just a rough guess)

Comparing your defenses and attacks, that normally is enough but one never really knows...

So if you are in need for that PIC then do it. If you want to be very safe than play normal.

Aggie

25-06-2008, 10:13

Thanks Ynnek, I decided not to PiC. The risk of not getting to the 3rd round is too great, also considering my weak bench.

Shabbaman

26-06-2008, 10:10

You could've won. Perhaps AOW was the wrong choice.

Aggie

26-06-2008, 12:43

True, that could have been the wrong choice... But I thought I would be safe.

BCLG100

26-06-2008, 12:57

My cup opponent got switched on me, to a V division team.

He looks beatable, judging from his first team my only worry is the midfield and he'll pack it out.

(57737)

I can MOTS after PIC the last two and i dont really have to worry about the next few matches as they are against bots. But what im wondering is whether i should stick to my 3-4-3 or switch to 4-4-2? if i was going to switch i'd probably need to buy another defender. I also have solid experience with 3-5-2. So any ideas what to do? I figure my attack and defence easily overpower him its just get the ball.

arne1

26-06-2008, 15:51

If it is jsut about getting the ball, you need midfield, so I would say 3-5-2, possibly with offensive central defender.

BCLG100

26-06-2008, 15:55

Could i say then use my three original defenders and drop one of my strikers back to play as a winger? (i already have a winger as well) so i would have 3 IM's and 1 striker playing as a winger and another winger there as well as the two upfront?

Aggie

11-03-2009, 10:56

If I want to win the title I have to win my next two games.

My opponent seems to max at the following ratings. Attack rating might differ (left or right may be swapped):

opponent defense R/C/L 7.5 7.75 7.25
Midfield 7.0
Attack R/C/L 7 3.75 2

Which of the following approaches would be best for me, considering that my opponent will play CA?
Defensive focuses on defense, to counter his attack. Midfield focuses on midfield, to outscore his midfield.

I SHOULD be able to win, but how to make it the surest way (neglecting bad luck situations of course...)?

3-4-3 defensive defense R/C/L 7.9 7.1 7.6
Midfield 7.8
Attack R/C/L 9.0 10.8 5.8

3-4-3 midfield defense R/C/L 5.3 8.3 6.1
Midfield 8.3
Attack R/C/L 8.8 10.8 5.5

3-5-2 defensive defense R/C/L 8.2 7.2 7.6
Midfield 8.8
Attack R/C/L 7.4 8.3 5.3

3-5-2 midfield defense R/C/L 5.6 8.4 6.1
Midfield 9.4
Attack R/C/L 7.3 8.5 5.1

socralynnek

11-03-2009, 11:16

I think the most reasonable versions are 3-4-3 def and 3-5-2 midfield.

First one allows him more chances, but he shouldn't be able to convert much, while you convert a lot.

3-5-2 mid ignores his strong side, but doesn't allow him a lot of chances. Both are even strong when he doesn't play CA and puts more into midfield.

arne1

11-03-2009, 14:36

I would go with the 4th option 3-5-2 midfield. If he plays the way you think he will play, you will still have higher chance conversion than teh opponent and you will clearly have more chances than him.

In my opinion it is the way to minimise bad luck. Even if the chance distrubution is equal you still win.

socralynnek

11-03-2009, 17:25

opponent defense R/C/L 7.5 7.75 7.25
Midfield 7.0
Attack R/C/L 7 3.75 2

3-5-2 midfield defense R/C/L 5.6 8.4 6.1
Midfield 9.4
Attack R/C/L 7.3 8.5 5.1

Let's fill it with numbers.

Assuming your midfield ratings is only 9 and his is 7. And assuming he gets 3 CAs (not that likely, I guess)

Then you have 57% posession (probably you have a little more), which should give you 6-7 chances. Maybe even 8 or it might be 5.

Let's say 6 chances for you, 7 chances (4+3 CAs for your opponent).

Considering your attack ratings, you should have more than 50% chance of conversion. He should have probably less than 30% (as he should score only on one side, but there probably every chance)

So, it's 3-2 for you. And that is in a rather pessimistic case. Probably it will be more like 7-5 chances for you or even 8-4 (including CAs). So I think, this option is pretty solid. It is even solid when he tries to strengthen his midfield while weakening defense as even if he slightly wins midfield, you should be looking pretty good. (Might calculate for the other option tomorrow)

Aggie

12-03-2009, 14:07

Thanks you two. I'm very interested in the other calculation as well ynnek! Where do you get this wisdom from?

Aggie

17-03-2009, 09:16

So, it's 3-2 for you.
This exactly was the score! (But he decided to play more defensive and less on the midfield).

Aggie

04-10-2010, 12:34

I meet the Gozzels next Wednesday. They will most probably counter-attack me with a 4-5-1. Gozzel's ratings last week with this choice were 151-81-88. It looks like they didn't PiC last week.

I am playing 3-5-2 day in day out with one winger and one WTM. This obviously is something Gozzels will anticipate on. I scored 128-135-99 playing like this last week.

I am contiplating 3 ways of playing Gozzels:

1. Play 2-5-3 (two attacking wingers), although my experience with this is poor. Overall experience of the team is formidable. I would still have most of the ball, boost my attacked enormously, but my defense might be too weak for the CA this way.
2. Stick with my good old 3-5-2? Attack might be a bit too weak if I play like this.
3. Playing 3-5-2, with two attacking wingers? I would boost my attack and I would still have most of the ball...

What would be wise and am I maybe missing other options? Experience with 4-4-2 and 3-4-3 are also ok.

socralynnek

04-10-2010, 13:38

I haven't looked at his exact ratings. Important is: Try to at least win one attacking side (this is my personal opinion, I guess, that's not common thinking)

Having one side where you win 55-45 is better than having all 3 sides at 45-55.

So, if you have the players to do so, you should think about a 3-5-2 with 1 winger & 1 WTM and 1 FTW, maybe even with a def. FW. If that will win one side attack if you otherwise don't win any side, then that might be worth it.

For midfield: I think you should have at least 60-40. If you get 60-40 even with 2 wingers + 2 FW, then that might be a good option. If his attack has some value, then personally I don't consider 2-5-3 as a good option, only if you then win midfield by far and win 2 attacking sides.

Probably I take a look into your and his ratings this evening if I make it.

Aggie

04-10-2010, 15:28

I'd appreciate it. It doesn't hurt to have a fresh pair of eyes looking at the options!

socralynnek

06-10-2010, 09:55

Took a look at his last few matches and your last cup match.

It's hard to predict how he plays as his team might even get close to your midfield if he tries to. If he plays CA with 3 attacking sides ignoring midfield, then you might lack attack power. Don't know how strong his defense can be if he really tries to defend.

Your ratings from last cup match look good and you should already cause a headache with that.

If you expect him to play very defense minded and expect him to put everything he has there, then you might try the approach with a FTW. 2-5-3 is a gamble. If he only pays with one attacking side like he did with his 4-5-1 3 weeks ago and you hit that side, then 2-5-3 would be a good option. But I guess he won't try that as your defense is not as strong as that of the opponent back then.

Therefore I'd go with 3 defenders, probably one central.

So, in my opinion 3-5-2 is the best option (maybe 4-4-2 if you are sure to win midfield then as well, but probaly 3-5-2 is better, especially as it isn't bad against any option he has)). Goal should be 60% posession.

But 3-5-2 isn't 3-5-2...

Options:
- 2 Wings, 2 Forward to wings and wing attack: surprise element, but I don't know whether you got the players for that.

- 1 Wing, 1 Forward to wing on the same side, 1 def For, 1 WTM: Maximizes posession which is good if he doesn't go for CA and hopefully you manage to win that one attacking side

- 1 or 2 Wings, 2 normal strikers: This is best if you win midfield and if he doesn't buildup his central defense.

2-5-3 with no wingers and only central defenders (AIM of course) might be a joker but on the other hand that is very risky. But it would be good if he goes for something like 4-4-2 with not enough midfield. But if he gets eneough midfield to get chances, then you are doomed.

If you win midfield your goal should be: Be close to his defense ratings on at least two sides, or: win 1 side.