Kemal
29-03-2005, 21:03
(This spoiler contains a .avi movie inserted to enhance the spoiling experience, file is pretty large (6MB) so if you want to watch it, if you don’t have an ultra fast connection, click this
Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif Wonder03.avi (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/Wonder03.avi)
to start downloading already while reading. Most of you prolly know the movie, but I personally prefer these over the civ3 method).
This game has been going for quite some time now, we more or less promised each other a 2nd game after the 1st was completed, and this is the result.
Map has been made by KR, and since he demanded that I made a spoiler for it, as a deity level player naturally I caved in immediately. ;)
Starting off with the map parameters:
Both of us play with Egypt, where I am commanding the lawyers and Killer (as modded Portugal) plays the archeologists.. time to give him a taste of his own medicine, [estwing] or hammer in this case that is. ;)
Further details:
Large map, archipelago
Emperor level
6 AI opponents
Additional rule (that we both forgot about until KR reminded us we actually requested it in the map request thread [blush2]): no suicide galleys!
So, to start off, the Lawyers found themselves on the following, decent spot..:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322224934_start.jpg
39.32KB
Though, of course, before making such an assumption, one should question: What is "a decent spot"? Although several years of playing pbems at this site has more or less led to the introduction of a somewhat unified concept of "decent start", the exact nature of this concept has not been uncontroversial, especially when taking into account possible reasonable compensations later in the game, by which the consequences of a low food start can be regulated and are not necessarily unjustified, also considering the fact that one should keep in mind the existence of several categories of starts and games, such as good pbem starts and good RNG created starts on any given random map, where it has been argued that...[laser]
Okay, that was the end of lawic flavour for this thread, I promise, as I somehow am under the impression I'm losing readers' interest here... ;).
So, in short, a decent start but without any food boni in sight, growth will be very slow, while there do seem to be shields in abundance, obviously MP won't be a problem on this map.
I started of scouting with a warrior, and since I located a cow on a fairly short distance of capital, I did not go for the granary but for the settler to maximize food production of the empire as soon as possible. With the settler completed, the map looked like this:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322225916_settlernaarkoe.jpg
22.86KB
As can be seen, there are actually two cows nearby, and a third can be found northwards... since it seemed that the starting island was more or less already getting to its final shape, with only the extreme south of the map left to explore, things were beginning to get more clear with regard to how to judge the plan to shape the future Lawic empire.
With only 1 cow for any given city being a total waste with regard to completing settlers at a good rate (since a single cow only gives max +4), getting the 2nd cow as well was a prime target for soon to be founded memphis... however, another thing to consider was that commerce was not fairly abundant on this island, with only one other major river on the island so far, meaning several cities would be without river-commerce bonus. That, in combination with the fact that no lux had been sighted so far, made the lawyers concur on a city build pattern that would be extremely dense, as to maximize the effects of MP/content born citizens per worked tile later in the game, which would keep the lux slider as low as possible until Republic at least.
Such a dense spread combined with the world as they knew them also convinced the Lawyers that the FP ought to be constructed in the city to be founded near the third cow/river.
But a dense city spread could have severe consequences for Memphis, the one and only settler pump, if indeed several cities would perhaps be build with a lower rank than memphis... therefore, in the end Memphis was founded at a very close distance 3 from the capital, and totally against the regular opinions on city builds, it was created on a bonus grassland without quick possibility to grow to size 7!
So, how to quickly get the other cow then, Kemal? Surely you can't mean to... that would be breaking one of the most basic rules people that start to play civ3 are taught... it can't be..
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322231020_memphistemple.jpg
26.66KB
[yeah]
Yes, this has to be the first time in ages I ever created a temple this early in the game, but the simple fact was that I needed it to get other cow, and building a settler for it again would delay construction of the granary too much, in my opinon. Also, since Memphis would grow to at least size 5, the extra happiness on that specific location would be badly needed soon, since it has a low commercial output. So, a temple it was. [medic]
A great drawback of course was that I now started actively losing an extra coin in upkeep, and thus killer was probably beginning to run away from me in techs... surveys of the GNP demographs also supported the fact that the Lawyers still had a long way to go to their beloved Code of Laws.. :(
To add to the extra upkeep, lots of commerce had also needed to be reassigned with the not so unexpected anymore, but still sad discovery of only a single lux on the entire island:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322231746_luxes.jpg
36.75KB
This thus resulted in an excruciatingly slow tech pace... having pursued pottery as a first tech, it was only in 1870 BC(!) that the lawyers, who obviously preferred the debating about construction of temples, the FP and city build patterns over scientific research, found a way to store their precious rulings and debates, having developed:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200532223205_alpha1870.jpg
39.53KB
The empire at that time, with Memphis only just finishing preparations for quick settler construction consisted of:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232045_empire1870.jpg
29.31KB
And indeed, the tech pace always stayed way behind on empire development, ensuring lots of lawyers found a new profession wielding a club instead of their favourite weapon, the Civil Code, as plenty of warriors where constructed for (future) MP duty, with key cities having little else to build at times. So it took until 1250BC for the next tech to be discovered:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232337_writing1250BC.jpg
39.81KB
With the empire at that time being:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232623_empire1250BC.jpg
88.54KB
Fortunately, with the advent of the curragh, knowledge of more distant parts of the map also became available, resulting in the following explorations:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232725_searoutes1.jpg
34.46KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232743_searoute2.jpg
40.6KB
Two new luxes to be seen on nearby islands! [cool]
No new lands/contacts yet, but we can see sea lanes everywhere, so we'll just suicide some curraghs and that will be sorted out soon enough...
Enter judge KR, all rise please. That thought was quickly overruled as KR rightfully pointed out that we had asked for suicide galleys to be forbidden! [cry]
Suddenly, the prospect of no contact/exploration at all until astronomy loomed dangerously above the lawyers' heads, and therefore it was thought to be reasonable, as can be seen in the 1250 empire pic, that immediately one city would get extreme priority to get it in line for an emergency wonder pre-build scenario.
But there were more decisions needed to be taken at that point, as the rare occasion of selecting a new tech had occured once again. Obviously, there were 3 major candidates:
1. Philosophy, to get the free tech, since the pace was already as slow as hell.
2. Mapmaking, to get those extra luxes online asap, as lux tax was on a permanent 20% already.
And of course..
3. Code of Laws, getting fervent support from the lawyers around the nation, who were getting tired of being equipped with those crude clubs. ;)
Obviously, a difficult choice between two and not three tech really, and after a heated and emotional debate it was decided that indeed mapmaking at this time was perhaps a *slightly, mind you!* better choice than Code of Laws, so mapmaking it was.
No Philo, I can hear you all wonder? ;)
A quick glance at a civ players best friend showed that this would have been a extremely risky, and almost certainly doomed choice, as somehow the F11 turned up the following BS:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322233957_1250BCdemographs.jpg
16.64KB
2nd in literacy!?? [confused]
Meaning an AI had either invented philo, or literature already, quite an achievement on an archipelago/emperor map, I think, but true nonetheless, it turned out to be.
We know this for sure, as we heard from a certain archeologist some boasts and claims of building on gold, to get to philo as soon as possible, and when the time was there... a major disappointment, as there was no free tech for Killer anymore. An AI it was, then.
A major setback for Killer this must have been for sure, considering he had spent much extra commerce on useless philo now, and had deranged prebuilds for harbours and galleys for sure. To strengthen this believe, as I assumed our tech pace was more or less the same, here is my horrendous 1000 BC tech tree:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322234638_techtree1000BC.jpg
61.13KB
Fortunately, the empire in the meantime was taking shape very well, the mainland has almost been colonized, indeed very dense but atm I'm still profiting from it. Heliopolis kinda nullified the extra MP advantage though, as I had to install a permanent 20% lux tax anyway to keep it at max production. [sad]
(As to the why of this, you might know already from viewing the movie, if not it will be explained below),
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322234943_empire1000BC.jpg
55.37KB
So, a few turns later, mapmaking was discovered, a galley was commisioned in service, and "de arm van de wet" (for Dutch only I'm afraid, sorry)) became longer and longer, as first in 775 BC, Lisht was founded as first overseas colony near the incense:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322234958_Lisht775BC.jpg
44.4KB
And in 690 BC, Buto followed to bring in the wines:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235034_city2_690BC.jpg
50.14KB
Harbours will be rushed there as soon as the population allows it, of course.
So then, the time finally arrived for the greatest Lawic achievement to date, as Heliopolis in turn 98 (current turn) finally managed to complete:
(in case you haven't started loading it at the start of the spoiler:)
Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif Wonder03.avi (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/Wonder03.avi)
[dance]
Curraghs will now attempt to explore sealanes and contact new civilizations, however the Supreme KouRt already warned us not to start celebrating too early about this... time will tell of course, if all else fails the lawyers will use this structure as one huge speaking corner, surely one can be heard from the top of this mighty structure! ;)
(For those that (understandably?) don't want to load the .avi at all... we are speaking, as you might have guessed, of the Great Lighthouse here).
To finalize, here's a shot of the current empire, turn 98 as said, as well as a minimap, the F3 screen, and a final word about the F11 screen in combination with F7:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235525_empireturn98.jpg
72.39KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235552_minimap590.jpg
3.53KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235636_army590.jpg
25.29KB
Now the demographics, which show us 2nd in mfg goods, whereas the previous turn we had been first with a reassuring 25 shield lead over no2... almost certainly an AI entered a GA, assuming Killer is isolated as well. The wonder screen (where we can see it was probably Byzantium that robbed Killer of a free tech indeed) shows no new AI wonders, so fighting is going on for sure.. I suppose the AI has run out of room as well then, might be more difficult to find them than expected indeed after all:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20053230042_f11590.jpg
51.45KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005323012_wonders590.jpg
63.92KB
Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif Wonder03.avi (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/Wonder03.avi)
to start downloading already while reading. Most of you prolly know the movie, but I personally prefer these over the civ3 method).
This game has been going for quite some time now, we more or less promised each other a 2nd game after the 1st was completed, and this is the result.
Map has been made by KR, and since he demanded that I made a spoiler for it, as a deity level player naturally I caved in immediately. ;)
Starting off with the map parameters:
Both of us play with Egypt, where I am commanding the lawyers and Killer (as modded Portugal) plays the archeologists.. time to give him a taste of his own medicine, [estwing] or hammer in this case that is. ;)
Further details:
Large map, archipelago
Emperor level
6 AI opponents
Additional rule (that we both forgot about until KR reminded us we actually requested it in the map request thread [blush2]): no suicide galleys!
So, to start off, the Lawyers found themselves on the following, decent spot..:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322224934_start.jpg
39.32KB
Though, of course, before making such an assumption, one should question: What is "a decent spot"? Although several years of playing pbems at this site has more or less led to the introduction of a somewhat unified concept of "decent start", the exact nature of this concept has not been uncontroversial, especially when taking into account possible reasonable compensations later in the game, by which the consequences of a low food start can be regulated and are not necessarily unjustified, also considering the fact that one should keep in mind the existence of several categories of starts and games, such as good pbem starts and good RNG created starts on any given random map, where it has been argued that...[laser]
Okay, that was the end of lawic flavour for this thread, I promise, as I somehow am under the impression I'm losing readers' interest here... ;).
So, in short, a decent start but without any food boni in sight, growth will be very slow, while there do seem to be shields in abundance, obviously MP won't be a problem on this map.
I started of scouting with a warrior, and since I located a cow on a fairly short distance of capital, I did not go for the granary but for the settler to maximize food production of the empire as soon as possible. With the settler completed, the map looked like this:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322225916_settlernaarkoe.jpg
22.86KB
As can be seen, there are actually two cows nearby, and a third can be found northwards... since it seemed that the starting island was more or less already getting to its final shape, with only the extreme south of the map left to explore, things were beginning to get more clear with regard to how to judge the plan to shape the future Lawic empire.
With only 1 cow for any given city being a total waste with regard to completing settlers at a good rate (since a single cow only gives max +4), getting the 2nd cow as well was a prime target for soon to be founded memphis... however, another thing to consider was that commerce was not fairly abundant on this island, with only one other major river on the island so far, meaning several cities would be without river-commerce bonus. That, in combination with the fact that no lux had been sighted so far, made the lawyers concur on a city build pattern that would be extremely dense, as to maximize the effects of MP/content born citizens per worked tile later in the game, which would keep the lux slider as low as possible until Republic at least.
Such a dense spread combined with the world as they knew them also convinced the Lawyers that the FP ought to be constructed in the city to be founded near the third cow/river.
But a dense city spread could have severe consequences for Memphis, the one and only settler pump, if indeed several cities would perhaps be build with a lower rank than memphis... therefore, in the end Memphis was founded at a very close distance 3 from the capital, and totally against the regular opinions on city builds, it was created on a bonus grassland without quick possibility to grow to size 7!
So, how to quickly get the other cow then, Kemal? Surely you can't mean to... that would be breaking one of the most basic rules people that start to play civ3 are taught... it can't be..
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322231020_memphistemple.jpg
26.66KB
[yeah]
Yes, this has to be the first time in ages I ever created a temple this early in the game, but the simple fact was that I needed it to get other cow, and building a settler for it again would delay construction of the granary too much, in my opinon. Also, since Memphis would grow to at least size 5, the extra happiness on that specific location would be badly needed soon, since it has a low commercial output. So, a temple it was. [medic]
A great drawback of course was that I now started actively losing an extra coin in upkeep, and thus killer was probably beginning to run away from me in techs... surveys of the GNP demographs also supported the fact that the Lawyers still had a long way to go to their beloved Code of Laws.. :(
To add to the extra upkeep, lots of commerce had also needed to be reassigned with the not so unexpected anymore, but still sad discovery of only a single lux on the entire island:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322231746_luxes.jpg
36.75KB
This thus resulted in an excruciatingly slow tech pace... having pursued pottery as a first tech, it was only in 1870 BC(!) that the lawyers, who obviously preferred the debating about construction of temples, the FP and city build patterns over scientific research, found a way to store their precious rulings and debates, having developed:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200532223205_alpha1870.jpg
39.53KB
The empire at that time, with Memphis only just finishing preparations for quick settler construction consisted of:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232045_empire1870.jpg
29.31KB
And indeed, the tech pace always stayed way behind on empire development, ensuring lots of lawyers found a new profession wielding a club instead of their favourite weapon, the Civil Code, as plenty of warriors where constructed for (future) MP duty, with key cities having little else to build at times. So it took until 1250BC for the next tech to be discovered:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232337_writing1250BC.jpg
39.81KB
With the empire at that time being:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232623_empire1250BC.jpg
88.54KB
Fortunately, with the advent of the curragh, knowledge of more distant parts of the map also became available, resulting in the following explorations:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232725_searoutes1.jpg
34.46KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322232743_searoute2.jpg
40.6KB
Two new luxes to be seen on nearby islands! [cool]
No new lands/contacts yet, but we can see sea lanes everywhere, so we'll just suicide some curraghs and that will be sorted out soon enough...
Enter judge KR, all rise please. That thought was quickly overruled as KR rightfully pointed out that we had asked for suicide galleys to be forbidden! [cry]
Suddenly, the prospect of no contact/exploration at all until astronomy loomed dangerously above the lawyers' heads, and therefore it was thought to be reasonable, as can be seen in the 1250 empire pic, that immediately one city would get extreme priority to get it in line for an emergency wonder pre-build scenario.
But there were more decisions needed to be taken at that point, as the rare occasion of selecting a new tech had occured once again. Obviously, there were 3 major candidates:
1. Philosophy, to get the free tech, since the pace was already as slow as hell.
2. Mapmaking, to get those extra luxes online asap, as lux tax was on a permanent 20% already.
And of course..
3. Code of Laws, getting fervent support from the lawyers around the nation, who were getting tired of being equipped with those crude clubs. ;)
Obviously, a difficult choice between two and not three tech really, and after a heated and emotional debate it was decided that indeed mapmaking at this time was perhaps a *slightly, mind you!* better choice than Code of Laws, so mapmaking it was.
No Philo, I can hear you all wonder? ;)
A quick glance at a civ players best friend showed that this would have been a extremely risky, and almost certainly doomed choice, as somehow the F11 turned up the following BS:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322233957_1250BCdemographs.jpg
16.64KB
2nd in literacy!?? [confused]
Meaning an AI had either invented philo, or literature already, quite an achievement on an archipelago/emperor map, I think, but true nonetheless, it turned out to be.
We know this for sure, as we heard from a certain archeologist some boasts and claims of building on gold, to get to philo as soon as possible, and when the time was there... a major disappointment, as there was no free tech for Killer anymore. An AI it was, then.
A major setback for Killer this must have been for sure, considering he had spent much extra commerce on useless philo now, and had deranged prebuilds for harbours and galleys for sure. To strengthen this believe, as I assumed our tech pace was more or less the same, here is my horrendous 1000 BC tech tree:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322234638_techtree1000BC.jpg
61.13KB
Fortunately, the empire in the meantime was taking shape very well, the mainland has almost been colonized, indeed very dense but atm I'm still profiting from it. Heliopolis kinda nullified the extra MP advantage though, as I had to install a permanent 20% lux tax anyway to keep it at max production. [sad]
(As to the why of this, you might know already from viewing the movie, if not it will be explained below),
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322234943_empire1000BC.jpg
55.37KB
So, a few turns later, mapmaking was discovered, a galley was commisioned in service, and "de arm van de wet" (for Dutch only I'm afraid, sorry)) became longer and longer, as first in 775 BC, Lisht was founded as first overseas colony near the incense:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322234958_Lisht775BC.jpg
44.4KB
And in 690 BC, Buto followed to bring in the wines:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235034_city2_690BC.jpg
50.14KB
Harbours will be rushed there as soon as the population allows it, of course.
So then, the time finally arrived for the greatest Lawic achievement to date, as Heliopolis in turn 98 (current turn) finally managed to complete:
(in case you haven't started loading it at the start of the spoiler:)
Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif Wonder03.avi (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/Wonder03.avi)
[dance]
Curraghs will now attempt to explore sealanes and contact new civilizations, however the Supreme KouRt already warned us not to start celebrating too early about this... time will tell of course, if all else fails the lawyers will use this structure as one huge speaking corner, surely one can be heard from the top of this mighty structure! ;)
(For those that (understandably?) don't want to load the .avi at all... we are speaking, as you might have guessed, of the Great Lighthouse here).
To finalize, here's a shot of the current empire, turn 98 as said, as well as a minimap, the F3 screen, and a final word about the F11 screen in combination with F7:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235525_empireturn98.jpg
72.39KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235552_minimap590.jpg
3.53KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005322235636_army590.jpg
25.29KB
Now the demographics, which show us 2nd in mfg goods, whereas the previous turn we had been first with a reassuring 25 shield lead over no2... almost certainly an AI entered a GA, assuming Killer is isolated as well. The wonder screen (where we can see it was probably Byzantium that robbed Killer of a free tech indeed) shows no new AI wonders, so fighting is going on for sure.. I suppose the AI has run out of room as well then, might be more difficult to find them than expected indeed after all:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20053230042_f11590.jpg
51.45KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005323012_wonders590.jpg
63.92KB