View Full Version : Hattrick Quick Question and Answer Thread
Melifluous
30-01-2005, 23:43
OK as the name implies this should be a place for questions and answers about Hattrick Stuff.
Please do not spam (*suddenly has images of red rags and bulls)
First Question from me then.
What effect does losing a match have on your supporters depending solely on whether you played MOTS or PIC?
Melifluous
none. That is it doesn't matter if you MOTSed or PICced. Your supporters won't notice the difference.
Melifluous
01-02-2005, 02:39
OK thanks Schip.
I thought that maybe losing a MOTS had a worse effect on your supporters attitude and was wondering if PIC'ing a match would lessen that effect or maybe it would be as bad.
Next question.
Anyone got their matches for next season yet?
(and yes I realise that this will change soon and make the question invalid, but its bothering me)
Melifluous
ehhh, yup:
quote:Upcoming Matches
02-02-2005 (Cup):
Dom Ducks - Tieskie Orders [HT Live]
06-02-2005 (League):
Dom Ducks - winners paradise Orders
13-02-2005 (League):
F.C. Mania - Dom Ducks Orders
20-02-2005 (League):
Dom Ducks - Wutty's online Orders
27-02-2005 (League):
FLX FC - Dom Ducks Orders
English_brit
01-02-2005, 12:25
Yep, my leagues fully updated now.
Shabbaman
01-02-2005, 12:57
quote:Originally posted by Melifluous
Anyone got their matches for next season yet?
League fixtures are fixed on basis of league position. So if the league is on it's end, you can already figure out who you'll play when next season. The first round is the number 1 v.s. the number 2, the number 3 v.s. the number 4 and so on.
quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman
quote:Originally posted by Melifluous
Anyone got their matches for next season yet?
League fixtures are fixed on basis of league position. So if the league is on it's end, you can already figure out who you'll play when next season. The first round is the number 1 v.s. the number 2, the number 3 v.s. the number 4 and so on.
I don't really understand why they do that as to me it seems that it should be possible to change the fixture list easily.
Shabbaman
01-02-2005, 18:31
Because this way they don't need to do any calculating for it.
But fixture lists are ridiculously easy to create. There are only 8 teams giving 14 matches. Even just moving the weeks around would be nice so that I didn't know in week 14 that if I lost my game I would have finished third and had an easier start to the league.
Shabbaman
01-02-2005, 19:10
I didn't say it made sense, I just offered an explanation.
If the opposition has a much stronger midfield (poor) and a central defence that should be high passable but poor and weak everywhere else what would you do? Assuming that your team has the better attack and defenders with high stamina but no passing so counter attack will not work too well.
Shabbaman
02-02-2005, 20:52
You haven't got passable attack, do you? If your attack is weaker than his defence and your mid is worse then his mid as well you have little chance. I've won v.s. superior numbers last season, but that was at home. 3-4-3 sometimes just is a miracle line up :)
Dell says: With 3 IMs and 1 Winger I can get passable(-), passable(--) and poor(+) with a wretched(+) midfield.
Yndy says: The difference between your teams is not that high, you can either play your normal tactic(above) or you can put the winger as well towards middle and play PiC. Your midfield will be a little lower but with some luck you'll get a draw and keep you TS up for future games.
The difference is not so high that you need to give up the game from the first minute, not even to be worth playing CA.
Moderator action: You can say I was [drunk] at the time of the moderating but you can also call it random display of Mod forces
The other idea. Should I just abandon the game and PIC and press?
socralynnek
03-02-2005, 13:13
The other option is playing 5-2-3 PIC and play with counter-attack. You might have to gather your offensive players at one wing s.t. your attack rating is at least higher on one side.
But then you can also lose 10-0...The main thing is your defense must a lot stronger than his attack.
The defence would be inadequate in all three areas with + on the left where he is slightly stronger. I'm not really convinced that would be high enough to stop his attacks although I would welcome any follow up comments.
Hmm, what happened to Dell's comment...? Hit edit instead of quote yndy? ;)
Shabbaman
05-02-2005, 13:12
How can you calculate whether you can pic or not?
HT Ratings can be used to calculate ratings pretty accurately if you adjust the settings after each game. I think I'm just going to treat this game as a loss and PIC it.
English_brit
05-02-2005, 18:49
I just downloade HT Ratings to try it out. I'm having problems signing in due to my router most likely. The FAQ on the site just says to let your firewall know that HT Ratings is ok without actually specifying the port it needs open.
Any idea anyone and marks out of 10 for HT Ratings?
Thanks!!
Well it was close to being accurate for my last game and should give a reasonable indication of what influence changes will make to the team like whether a winger would contribute more when played offensively and how to boost the right attack. It always sticks on logging in after the bar almost completes but I can then download everything so it seems to work.
English_brit
05-02-2005, 19:09
Ah. Mine does that but I assumed as it was sticking that it wouldn't work. I'll try it again. Ta. :)
English_brit
05-02-2005, 19:18
It worked. Thanks. HT ratings and HO ratings disagree on my expected ratings for the game though. Dunno which one to trust more now. lol
No Problem, I thought I would start a new thread for any further discussions and to post a link to the guide for HT ratings.
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
Hmm, what happened to Dell's comment...? Hit edit instead of quote yndy? ;)
Holy shit I actually did that ! [blink]
I was just looking through this thread, wondering hey didn’t I say something sometime?
I apologize Dell, also to a and PP, I know we have only few rules and I just inadvertedly broke one. I must have been [drunk] or something.
At least I answered the question. [cyclops]
Melifluous
09-02-2005, 03:55
hmm, nice one Yndy!
next question.
Do you try and buy players from your own country?
Melifluous
Kingreno
09-02-2005, 10:39
That is easy: no.
I have never bought a player with his salary as an important factor.
Well, I would only when two players are the same in all other relevant aspects.
Shabbaman
09-02-2005, 12:30
Yes, I've bought a dutch keeper. His salary is almost double as much as the next one's. 20% saves me about 800 euros a week or so.
Yes, there are so many players in the HT-world that many teams don’t have any nationals left in their squad. I actually liked the RL rules regarding limitation of foreign players. Now with the EU, you don’t have that in most of Europe.
Anyway, I want to have virtual Romanian players with names I can easily pronounce and actually remember. I now have 2 foreigners left, one will be sold in a month or so, the other will be promoted coach eventually and later replaced.
The salary advantage is now EUR 11k per week.
I was wondering, do you guys think it is worth to play only international friendlies with cup rules away from home instead of just the regular domestic friendlies, financially spoken?
I got 10K from ticket sales from the bootstoots game in the cdz cup, while I usually end up with only 1.5K from my usual friendly match, which means even after the 6K ticket cost I made a profit, not even taking into account the extra experience for the players an international match gives (okay only 0.1 points, but still...).
Has anyone got any experience with these kind of friendlies? Do they actually pay for themselves, when picking the right opponents (i.e. someone top of a league in the foreign country)?
Kingreno
10-02-2005, 17:49
What I do is to go to some foreign land, click a region, click online users and challenge 20. In 95% of the times I will challenge them to come to my stadium! That way you do not get to pay 6000Euro in tickets and still get a very decent ammount of money. Just now, a Uruguayan team accepted for next wednesday.:)
Wow, I'm now flying to the States again next wednesday, another 6K in expenses for de Snaken...lets hope it is worth it.
I'll try luring them to the Snaken Arena as well then next time. :)
I also use KingReno's method. Works like a charm, usually you'll have a friendly set up in 10 mins max.
Some people are chasing flags so they will actually try to get away internationals.
A quick and probably stupid one: Does income from sponsors depend on number of supporters and state or supporters? Or only state of sponsors and performance in league and cup?
@ akots: Yes for the first version. Home team and guest team number and mood of supporters matters.
@Kemal: I also use to challenge 20 teams for other countries to come to my arena. I challenge only online users with Supporter as they will see the challenge immediately. If I don't get a friendly in 10 minutes, I log off and log on in a coupel of hours. It's ussually done by then.
Playing away to a team in Division V or higher will pay for the trip. That's why I prefer to look in smaller countries.
Melifluous
06-03-2005, 22:04
Next question.
What effect does playing a 'non-standard' line-up have on your training for that week?
Say if some daft bastard played 3-6-1 instead of a 4-5-1 [rolleyes]
Melifluous
Training is lost if you play 4 players or more on the same position. For this purpose a wingback is different from a central defender and a winger is different from a midifielder. You have played with 4 midfielders so you will lose training.
You could have played 5-5-0 and not lost training with 3 central defenders and 3 midfielders.
OTOH you also lose training if you play 4-4-2 with 4 central defenders or 4 midfielders (through repositionings).
Bad luck, seen it happen to others as well :(
Melifluous
06-03-2005, 22:25
It was a simple mistake.
Normally play a defender as midfield for a 3-5-2.
and then I'd play a forward as midfield for a 4-5-1.
Switching from 3-5-2 to 4-5-1 I moved my forward to midfield but forgot to move the defender back to normal. [blush]
It happens and it sucked. Still only my reserves.
I was wondering, I know the TS of a team works with decimals behind the comma, i.e you can have "low composed" or "high composed" TS.... but is the precise value also used to calculate the effect on the midfield, so that a "high irritated" TS and a "very low composed" TS have almost the same effect on your team, or is it so that irritated and composed give the same bonus whatever their exact value?
I guess so, but I wonder if there is a way to tell for sure.
Decimals are calculated in midfield ratings as there are matches where midfield ratings are "weak very low" vs "poor very high" and posession is 50%-50% where it should be 52% - 48%.
Okay thanks yndy, I'll just hope that this is the case then, since my 3 last pleasant(!) buys have all resulted in a drop of TS, which means that 1 day before the crunch match vs emmen I know face an irritated TS... and 2 of those 3 buys had been forced replacement buys due to injuries.. the Devs really have pushed those anti-DT measures too far imho.. :(
In terms of TSI what are the different levels of skill worth relative to each other?
Does a solid skill have roughly twice as much influence as a passable skill
So: Wretched, poor, weak, passable, solid would look like:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32.
Or is something completely different? Anyone want to make a best guess?
Another silly question for the experts: Is there any way to search for leadership? Let's say I want a solid keeper with at least passable leadership? Does Supporter allow these kinds of searches?
@Dell: I don't think anybody can say anything about that. The problem with TSI is that a lot of factors are influencing it, which makes it impossable to break down. Except for keepers. Maybe some keeper-training community did some research on this. I never read anything about the difference in TSI for different levels. One of the problems is that you can never tell if you are comparing the same players.
@akots: no there is not. Supporter does not provide any fundamental advantage, it does give you nice stats and bookmark possibilities. But the games functions are the same for every one. If your looking for leadership I'm afraid you have to click through to the players page. I remember this being raised at the Dutch conference once, though the GM's state it would be impossible because the leadership is stored differnetly than the other player charcteristics. It is not seen as a skill, but more as a quality.
Furhter to Schip's comments, TSI does not increase linearly with the skill so if you are training a guy from excellent to formidable in a skill his TSI will increase more than if you are training a similar guy from solid to excellent. Form should be exactly the same. I don't know of somebody who has broken the TSI formula but I'm sure there are people who can guess pretty good if a player is 'high' or not in his main skill.
There are skill traders so there must be a certain understanding of the numbers. Basically with the assumptions that I made I had my players that popped to excellent near the top but several players that had just popped to solid were in the middle of the bunch rather than at the bottom.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/2005323205618_ht-03-23-05.JPG
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There supposed to be no bying coaches in HT?!?! [lol]
The guy who had bet 600K will probably win since higher bids are not allowed. Or will it be different?
He isn't a coach yet. :)
How do you find these future coaches?
Problem with TSI is that it's the sum of all seperate TSI's of the different characteristics. Michiel has made some excel sheets on tsi increase of players he was training forwards. Problem with this is that I cant say for sure that
1)a passable-solid increase on scoring respresents a similar TSI increase for winging (or any other char for that matter) but I do think that's so.
2) increase from passable-solid is less TSI than solid to excellent (never looked into this but I do believe it is)
If that's true it becomes possible to guestimate the amount of TSI needed to jump a level when the difference between best characteric and othet characteristics is big.
It would be fairly easy to test a few things when we all keep track of our trainees TSI increases for a few weeks.
quote:Originally posted by Dell19
He isn't a coach yet. :)
How do you find these future coaches?
Oh, I'm sure he will be as soon as rules allow.
I've searched for age over 35 and experience excel and above and price below 10K. I opened each player then looking for leadership to be at least passable and found this guy (he was the only one in the whole HT at that time) and even had bet 7 or 8 K on him but then this madness started. Apparently I'm not the only one looking for an easy way out of the coach mess. :)
well I read some topic on Dutch Hatttrick forum. seems that players in excellent form can not increase anymore due to form changes, hence it makes it possible to predict TSI change from training.
FWIW my trainees increase 90 a week (without form change) which would mean jumping a level in scoring from excellent to formidable is a TSI increase of about 700. Defenders that receive scoring training increase by 10, which would mean an effectiveness of about 12%
I thought the jump in TSI was dependant on which level they are jumping between?
Melifluous
24-03-2005, 03:30
Think of the attribute as more of a decimal ;)
Melifluous
quote:Originally posted by akots
Oh, I'm sure he will be as soon as rules allow.
I've searched for age over 35 and experience excel and above and price below 10K. I opened each player then looking for leadership to be at least passable and found this guy (he was the only one in the whole HT at that time) and even had bet 7 or 8 K on him but then this madness started. Apparently I'm not the only one looking for an easy way out of the coach mess. :)
I wonder why would anyone sell them ? (maybe they don't know about the coach thing ?)
Maybe he has another player in his team that would make for even a better coach, or he just needs the money more.
Melifluous
04-04-2005, 00:07
Can a red carded player play in friendlies?
Melifluous
Yes. Cards only count for league games.
Melifluous
04-04-2005, 11:57
Thanks Dell just what I wanted to hear.
Also not what Swingstars wanted to hear [fdevil]
Melifluous
Beware, swingstar coach is on holiday!
Melifluous
04-04-2005, 13:00
No matter, he accepted my friendly challenge.
Or are you trying to imply he might leave his first team in?
Interesting...
Melifluous
In Need of a Coach
OK, to put it short: My current coach will have his leadership down to the lowest level next season and the following season will start to lose skill. So, I need a coach candidate now. I don't have a decent one inside the team yet. And recruitment from the external is not affordable unless it is a solid skill/poor leadership which is certainly not enough if I ever hope for promotion to Vth division or further on.
So, I started looking on the market for players with low TSI, high experience (solid and above), and high leadership (passable and better solid). Other features irrelevant. The idea was to find a player with low TSI first and make maximal bid on him thus winning the bid. For example, if a player has TSI of 50, just bid 500K on him and be done with it.
The problem is that I'm not apparently the only one trying to do this. And also having some spare cash to spend is a must. Apparently 1.5 million spare is better to have in case of a player with higher TSI.
So, what is the question:
1) Is it worth it or not? It is a major hassle and requires complete surfing of the transfer market at least every other day. Also, the money just sit there doing nothing, so may be expand the stadium or buy more trainees or do something else? And forget about that coach thing, just go on with poor leadership again. Still it seems like throwing away good money.
2) Any tips on how to make this elusive catch?
3) There should be some ads in the transfer ads but it seems that all the sales are arranged at least they seem to. There might be an ad but by the time I come to it, it has a maximal bid already within 30 minutes of placing the player on the market. Is it OK with the rules?
4) Is there any way to some forum or place where people discuss these possible sales and "make arrangements" for these kind of deals. If it is not against the rules, why not do it?
quote:Originally posted by yndy
... I wonder why would anyone sell them ? (maybe they don't know about the coach thing ?)
Well, there is a bunch of clown traders. Don't really know how do they find them, but they seem to have a lot of clowns for sale almost always. Might be there is a similar thing with coach candidates?
Edited: Like they buy really underpriced ones with low-low TSI of 10 to 50, let them play a couple of games to increase TSI just a tiny bit, then resell for full price. It goes as high as 6 million, still less expensive than an external full-throttle coach with excel skill and solid leadership (18 million).
Nothing that can be done about that, I've been looking for a low-tsi future coach from time to time as well and you have to be extremely lucky to find one it seems, since as you say the few that have the necessary LS will be bid upon by people within minutes it seems.
However, I'm not sure if your coach will indeed be disastrous as soon as next season already. your coach is 6 days older than mine, and if I understand the rules correctly, he will not drop to disastrous next season, because they lose half a level of LS per season. It seems new coaches start at x,5 level of LS, where x is the level you recruit them on, so that after one season they become x,5 - 0,51 = <x, i.e. drop one level. However, to drop yet another level that would require twice as long.
Maybe some veterans could verify this? If recruited coaches indeed, contrary to what I just said, start at max level of LS, I do not understand why some player/coaches keep their LS for longer than a season initially.
Finally, I think such a player is definitely worth it if you need the good LS in your division, paying like 300K is a bargain in that case for a solid+, passable+ experience player, imho.
in my opinion it is only worth it if you are desperate to promote from a difficult league and hence need the ability to pic/mots throughout the season. The longer, but better way to go IMO is to invest in your team and go with the solid/poor coach. That will last you three season normally, so for 90K a season your done.
OK, how's about this argument...
For example, lets say, all this coach hassle would cost a total of 1 million. And indeed will slightly accelerate the training, by 10% which is not that important indeed. However, increasing leadership of the coach from wretched/disastrous to passable/solid for a few seasons will boost performance in each match by about 10%-20% for my stupid 30-star team basically converting into 35-star team without any impact on training or other things. The fraction of increase will be smaller in the case of a decent 50-star team, apparently. Something around the same 5-stars and many 50-star teams can afford paying 2 million apparently every 3 seasons.
But what can one get of 1 million? Basically, 2 formidable midfields or 2 excel wingbacks, not even both of these. This will add maximum 2 stars instead of 4-6 stars added by the coach. And also consider it depends on their form.
Certainly, there are other means to boost the team spirit. But there should be a "coach part" of it which cannot be boosted higher without decent leadership of the coach.
I'm not thinking of buying a better coach, I'm thinking of a very inexpensive way to get one without violating the rules or if other people can do it. are they really doing it without violating the rules?
Also, this means a conversion of 30-star team to 35-star and 35-star to 40-star which might be enough for me (if i ever promote to Vth US division) to survive there. Need about 40-45 stars to sit there firmly and close to 50-55 on average to promote to 4th division.
Well, that's what I said isn't it? The coach will improve your team, but it will cost you money. A player will do that but lasts longer and can be resold. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, it's just not worth the trouble to me, at this moment. I have some passable leadership players that are gaining experience fast now, so maybe I'll promote one of them in the future.
PS: you did know any players you buy must be with your team for 16 weeks before you can promote them no?
Yes, that is why I'm starting to worry about it now with another season after the current one to go with an old coach.
http://home.planet.nl/~dijk8021/logo_club_12.jpg
Melifluous
14-04-2005, 00:32
[smirk]
Melifluous
Does anyone happen to know the exact interest rate an economist gives you? I've seen 0.3% in most instances, but other numbers as well...
Thanks in advance. :)
http://www.databased.at/hattrick/x-ray/index.asp?starter=econray
You can use it to calculate exactly how many economists you should have.
I wonder what happens if I click on 'change coach'. Do I lose my coach immediately and do I get a list of new coaches to pick from or just one?
Fortunately it doesn't happen that fast. :)
You get to a screen where you can either select to change a player in a coach, or "buy" one for a fixed price. Even then, proceeding further will still only give you a list of prices etc, for actual changing of the coach, before you actually can proceed to get a new one.
However, to see those prices, you can also check some hattrick info databases, such as via hattrix (the site Dell's link leads to), where all the info is nicely presented.
Btw, @Dell: thanks for that link, I think I'm not venturing on that path yet, of hiring economists... and also, did I notice Wartham hunting for a new coach as well lately on the markets, with an offer of 100K on an experienced PM? :)
X-ray is a pretty useful site, its a shame that it charges for certain stuff now although the trial period does restart evey 30 days.
Yeah I do have a bid on a possible future coach. Was a bit of a silly bid because someone will almost certainly outbid me and now my money is tied up for a while.
Melifluous
15-04-2005, 19:06
About those economists. Rates are quoted as follows
economists rate
1 0,3%
2 0,42%
3 0,52%
4 0,6%
5 0,67%
6 0,73%
7 0,79%
8 0,85%
9 0,9%
10 0,95%
So if you have £333,333 and 1 economist, then you break even (interest received = salary of economist)
For the Europeans thats 500,000 euros! as a breakeven point.
More than that and getting an economist or 2 makes money.
Simple.
If you have £4,000,000 and 10 economists you still only make £28,000 a week.
But making money is making money no matter how much it is. ;)
Melifluous
The maximum amount is £66 667 a week in interest.
Thanks for the list Meli, I figured it just wasn't worth it for me, especially since you also have to take into account the costs to fire the fellow again (or keep him around for ages sitting on a pile of cash to earn you back any possible firing costs).
I suppose it's better to have the money walking on the pitch keeping the supps and sponsors happy than relying on these poor interest rates. :)
Another question from the Snaken manager...
If you have an injured players, does the amount of weeks injured represent a total number of injury points left (say, 2 weeks = between 1500 and 2000 points), or is the amount of weeks a time estimate showing how many updates still are required - with the current staff settings - before the player gets better again?
I'm asking because my star midfielder has just turned bruised but playing today, and I have 10 doctors employed atm... if I'd fire them all, could that lead to him being injured for one week again?
Kingreno
16-04-2005, 15:56
I had that once IIRC, buying a bruised player that turned to One week injured after the transfer was complete, I probably had a lot less docs then the team I bought it from.
Melifluous
16-04-2005, 16:07
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
Thanks for the list Meli, I figured it just wasn't worth it for me, especially since you also have to take into account the costs to fire the fellow again (or keep him around for ages sitting on a pile of cash to earn you back any possible firing costs).
I suppose it's better to have the money walking on the pitch keeping the supps and sponsors happy than relying on these poor interest rates. :)
I now have just over £800,000 and after a quick chat with English_Brit online I have decided to stop being so impatient and sit on the cash for a while.
I hired an economist ;)
Melifluous
@Meli: but you sure have a lot more money than I have! ;)
@Kr: thanks for the info, I just fired 5 docs, fortunately I saw no increase in injury time yet... not sure when this will be updated though.
quote:Originally posted by Melifluous
I now have just over £800,000 and after a quick chat with English_Brit online I have decided to stop being so impatient and sit on the cash for a while.
I hired an economist ;)
Melifluous
Good idea since you have conceded this year so you only need to spend as much money as it takes to win a VI league (please let it not be mine!) and then you can spend the rest when you come back up to V.
English_brit
17-04-2005, 01:17
I never suggested sitting on money you have though. If you need a new trainee go out and buy one otherwise you're just throwing away training time and money.
1) Is there any good to save cash and buy players in the interseasonal break? Prices on transfer market seem to go down a bit then since many clubs are short for cash and forced to sell cheap.
2) Is it worth to train stamina before the team spirit is reset? Does form get reset as well or there is no break in form generator in the interseason?
English_brit
25-04-2005, 13:51
If you have enough money to buy the player before the season bonuses are handed out you may get a better price as alot of players wait until they get the extra income to buy their new players.
The form doesn't get reset, it just carries on in to the next season.
I have studied a few future-coach sales. Seems that they all are pre-arranged. At least I was able to determine a few distinct features of these sales:
1) In many cases, both owners are from the same zone/league.
2) They are from essentially identical IPs (first 4 or even 5 numbers match).
3) The bet is placed within seconds after the player with solid or inadequate leadership and low TSI (excellent experience) goes to the market.
4) Team that was selling the prospective coach is always a newly acquired team.
5) It seems that in many cases, this team is promptly abandoned. But hard to tell exactly.
6) It also seems that the deal might be followed by a "mutual favor" with regards to a prospective coach sale.
I'm not sure there is enough evidence for this to report to gamemasters but I will try to collect some more proof, not sure how though.
To put it short, here is the idea behind this. Two friends in real life or just Hattrick buddies make a deal. Each of them creates a series of phony teams fishing for a player with at least solid experience and inadequate leadership until such a player is found. Obviously, different IP addresses are used for each team. Then, they decide about time when the player will be posted on the market and the second team which is not a phony but a real team immediately makes a bet. The favor is then returned. Conclusion: This all is a very dirty business or so it seems. I doubt someone there is sitting fishing for experienced low TSI players all the time. Even with supporter the task seems extremely tedious and people are not that completely stupid. I doubt that anyone who is newbie can be dumb enough to sell such a player unless there is two of a kind. But the probability of this seems close to zero. It is also apparent that fishing for these kinds of things is useless and would yield nothing because all deals and prearranged.
Interesting findings, more than enough for a report or a five. I believe it is most probably the right conclusion just that I doubt you can generalise that all to-be-coaches are sold that way. By all means report all the teams where features 2-5 are true.
Hmm, looking at form (pink) and tsi (darkblue) in the past few weeks... would this mean this guy is losing skills?
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200542912455_vormverlies.jpg
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I am wondering about it since I noticed his TSI being 1250 when in solid form, and now being 1250 too in excellent form. The fellow is only 27...
Shabbaman
29-04-2005, 12:13
Could be. You could check out the same graph for his other skills.
They don't show any loss of skills so far, but maybe it can be from (high) to (low) in a specific skill? It is possible to lose skills when only 27 already?
Shabbaman
29-04-2005, 12:20
I believe so. It starts at 27.
He could have gone from high form to low form. I thought the skill drop age was much closer to 30...
I was wondering about the form drop possibility as well, but I was unable to explain why high solid would mean the same TSI as low excellent form, there should be a difference I suppose.
Of course, my real concern is whether skill drops can take palce that early already. That would be quite disappointing...
there is only 1 level in excellent form. And I guess, the smallest increase being ten it could be possible that a form increase from 7.99 (high solid) to 8 would not show up in TSI. Because he is not a particulary good player TSI increases are not big with form increase. Your 12K TSI keeper should much better reflecting any in- or decrease.
I think Shabba is right in players losing part of their skill from 27 onwards, though this will be hardly noticable.
quote:Change in abilities
The 8 abilities slowly change. They may be improved by special training (preferably combined with match training). Young players improve their abilities much more than older ones. As a player approaches the age of 30 his abilities start decreasing. This process doesn´t occur constantly over time, rather, it occurs in levels. Very small decreases at a time for players around 30, in considerably larger leaps for players around 35. For some reason, these decreases in abilities always surface on Mondays, for whatever reason… Different levels of abilities are variously hard to maintain as the players grow older - scoring ability is harder to maintain than goalkeeping, for instance. Read more on increasing abilities in the "Training" chapter.
So realistically 27 seems to be too early from that.
Kingreno
11-05-2005, 09:47
Question: Formation experience ranges from poor to excellent right? then why :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200551194324_hattrickbug.jpg
16.04KB
This I don't understand. I have not played the 5-4-1 in a very long time, yet I have not played 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 ever. It also seems that last week I had no training but no message was recieved from my secretary (which is supposed to happen when you make a line-up mistake like Mel and Schip did in the past, right?). I did play 5-5-0 (3 IM, 3 CD, 2 WB, 2 W) but that is allowed...the loss of training utterly sucks though[mad]
Is there anyone here that can tell anything meaningfull about this?
are you sure you didn't receive training? how would you check? the experience thing is strange of course, if you wish to inquire you can send a mail to nederland@hattrick.org and ask the GM's.
I'm confused with this....
The experience thing is normal, I've had that all the time when training keepers. You lose a little experience in every formation with each player you buy or sell, so I suppose you have to blame daytrading for this one. ;)
edit: of course you already knew this, and the real mystery is why the other formations aren't wretched too... should learn to read more carefully I suppose. [blush2]
Can't help you with that I'm afraid..
Btw, it will rise to poor again normally after time, just like TS always goes back to composed. As Schip, I'm wondering as well, how can you see you lost training? This sounds scary... [scared]
Melifluous
12-05-2005, 11:23
On the training thing, look in "The Club" and click view all messages.
You are looking for
quote:
21/04/2005 The team has lost training for the week due the incomprehensible actions of the club manager.
for some date.
Otherwise you didn't lose training :)
What makes you think you lost training?
Melifluous
quote:Hattrick announces
5/18/2005 MaxBid-limit removed
The technical limit covering the maximum bid on a player has been removed.
This does not change the rule that you may not pay overprice on players.
A fair decision for future coach-buyers. [lol]
Agree, I can't imagine that the limit was ever reached for normal players..
Kingreno
20-05-2005, 09:58
They did this too for young players from tiny countries whose "passable Playmaking and Inadequate defending" gets them in the U-20, this often raised bids to astronomical ammounts yet the lower TSI made for low max bids.
I was notified by a league mate that I wrote a news item: (see at the bottom) quote:23-05-2005 at 16:50 There was a commotion outside Berkel United headquarters today, after the club announced they sold a player. Angry supporters were concerned by the departure and wondered how the squad would cope with potential injuries.
23-05-2005 at 16:33 Berkel United surprised everyone today when they announced they sold a player. "He just didn't fit into their plans anymore. It was time for him to go," one prominent insider said.
23-05-2005 at 16:32 There was a commotion outside Berkel United headquarters today, after the club announced they sold a player. Angry supporters were concerned by the departure and wondered how the squad would cope with potential injuries.
19-05-2005 at 18:18 FC Zaancity surprised everyone today when they announced they sold a player. "He just didn't fit into their plans anymore. It was time for him to go," one prominent insider said.
17-05-2005 at 18:32 Dom Ducks supporters hope the trip abroad won't affect the squad's play in their upcoming league match.How can this happen, I don't have HT supporter?? Also, if you look at the first and third item, it looks like there is some automated news pushing going on. Can anyone explain this? Is this old stuff? I for one never saw it before..
Shabbaman
23-05-2005, 17:12
It's a new feature!
Question time:
1.) is it worth spending the $2000 per week pulling from the Youth League if you are spending $0 on it weekly? The 1st time I did it I got a 0 TSI guy. I'm currently not spending anything on it until my finances level out and I can see what I can afford before I lay out any cash for the Youth League.
2.) I have an inadaquate keeper right now. Is is worth the 30-40K to upgrade to a passable one or should I keep the one I have until I can afford a much better one?
Its probably not worthwhile pulling until the YS is on inadequate.
It depends when you are planning to get a solid keeper. There probably isn't much point in upgrading to a passable keeper unless you get one really cheaply that you can then sell for a profit later on. You should use the goalkeeper tool and make sure that the passable keeper is at least an actual level higher.
You should use the goalkeeper tool and make sure that the passable keeper is at least an actual level higher.
Huh? What's that about? Is there a possiblility that my Inad is already passable?
http://www.hottrick.org/hattrick_keeper_tool.php
Basically you could have a high inadequate keeper and you might end up buying a low passable who is actually only 0.1 of a level higher than your current keeper.
Goaltending: inadequate (5.6483915949387)
OK ~ I understand now Thanks for the info.
Ok I think I have a good handle on the Inner Midfield but now I have questions on the rest of the positions. What skills are important to what positions?
IM = Play Making (primary) Defence (secondary) Passing (a bit)
Keeper = Keeper
Central Defence = Defense (Primary) Secondaries???
Wing Back = Defence??? (primary???)
Winger = Winger (Primary) Secondaries???
Forward = Scoring (Primary) Secondaries???
I was wondering this stuff because besides my MI I will have to purchase any improvements on my team as I am training PM. How important are the secondaries? Are they worth bidding extra for?
IM: I'd rate passing as even more important than defense, and stamina is actually as important as PM for those guys, I think. As for the secondaries (passing and defending), I think their effect is the same, but on different ratings... passing for your attack, and defending for defense.
CD: passing is useful if you want to play CA, since your CA skill is, amongst other things, based on your defenders passing skill. Furthermore, for an offensive CD, PM and stamina are important as well, but I'd recommend playing a CD normal, thus focusing on defense.
Winger: Winging is the factor that decides on how much the side attack is improved, but his PM is quite important too, they contribute about half as much to the midfield with their PM skill (and stamina counts as well of course) as a normal inner midfield does, so the effect is certainly not negligable, I think. Passing is useful as well on these guys.
Forward: scoring is uber-important, passing helps a little, but not very important, and really expensive on the market atm..
So as for your final question, in my opinion only on wingers is their secondary worth paying for (especially PM/stamina, passing is nice too), all other players I think should be bought mainly with their primary skill in mind, especially for newer teams. :)
Thanks for your help Kemal
I currently have 3 forwards.
1 passable scoring
2 inad scoring
I think by looking around I should be able to pick up a solid scorer for around 15K I think this should be worth it. as I will be jumping up 2 levels from inad to solid.
WOW to go to Excelent your are talking about a jump all the way to 150-600K. I'll leave that one alone for a bit.
If you can get them for 15K, go for it indeed!
I sold a solid striker last season with very bad secondaries for 66K, but prices on the striker market do seem to be on an all-time low atm, especially for the solid and below levels.
I agree with Kemal, at the level you are playing, the skill you should look for are:
Keeper=keeping
Central Defender=defending, try to go for passing weak but not necessarily
Wingback=defending, try to look for winger weak and passing weak but don't pay more for them
Inner midfield=playmaking+stamina. Stamina needs to be at least solid. Secondaries are not worth for you.
Winger=either winger or playmaking+stamina plus weak winger. At the point you are at, only the winger skill has an effect that you will afford. In the beginning, wingers may be best used as extra midfielders when played towards the middle so you might consider buying another midfielder for the position especially when playing 3-4-3.
Forwards=scoring. Passing is nice but expensive, forget it.
Is it worthwhile making youth pulls if your program is retched? I am currently no longer investing in it. It seems a waiste of money so far and I don't have any to spare. Any one with thoughts on this newbie subject?
quote:Originally posted by arne1
... I am currently no longer investing in it. It seems a waiste of money so far and I don't have any to spare. Any one with thoughts on this newbie subject?
Don't know. But did a little calculation. Overall I've invested about a 1 million in it since I joined. But got it to excel only recently. Most of the pulls are certainly very disappointing. But once in a while some good pulls can compensate for that. Seems that overall gain is around 1.1-1.2 million but don't know exactly since I'm keeping the good wingback/winger (around 800K-900K worth on market). The balance is either 50-50 or some small profit. Hopefully, if it stays excel longer, it can generate some more money or players. At least you don't lose much this way and can have entertaining expectations every Saturday night.
Is there a numbering convention for players like there is for american football? (ie. do keepers typicall have a specific number? Do wingers have a number in a certain range?)
If so what is it. TY
There is no fixed rules except the keeper is usually number 1 with defenders occupying the lower numbers, midfielders in the middle and forwards slightly higher. Usually substitutes would have higher numbers but really I find it easiest to order my players by position since HT orders the players by their squad numbers.
quote:Originally posted by Mistfit
Is there a numbering convention for players like there is for american football? (ie. do keepers typicall have a specific number? Do wingers have a number in a certain range?)
If so what is it. TY
Well, there is, but as dell is saying is incovenient to use although I do it in someway. But it is difficult, because my line-up is not a regular football/soccer line-up. Most teams play 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 here in the Netherlands. 3-5-2 is an unlikely line-up for a normal match.
So to make short story long screw convention and do what dell is doing, it is way more convenient. If you really want to number like soccer convention, I could make something for you depending on what formation you are playing and what how you want them to play (attacking/defending/etc.)
Friday I was looking for a multifunctional player for both froward adn midfield that was also still trainable. After a while I gave up because they were just to expensive. So I decided to go fro spare forward, while one of my bids was still highest. So than I had both. Forward (2.000) and mid/forward (20.500). Since I do not need both and need to save money I decided to sell mid/forward. So I just sold this guy for 51.000. They should see I bought him Friday and so I did not train him.
I was expecting a considerable loss on my "blunder", but now I made about 20.000 euro's. I assume this is just an incredible amount of luck. What do you think?
socralynnek
12-07-2005, 19:22
which skills did he have?
Have you checked transfer compare for his real value?
But otherwise, I guess, you were lucky, congratulations!
People make a living from doing that... Daytraders buy players cheaply and sell them higher to people who don't check the transfer history and just want the player too much. Skill traders buy players close to popping and sell them as soon as they pop.
I was just looking at buying a better Keeper and one of the Guys I was tracking was bought by the same team that was selling him [hmm] I figure either he didn't feel as if he was getting enough for him or that he was trying to bump the bidding himself and got caught. One way or another he got stuck with 99K for a guy he alreay owned
He may also have made a mistake and realised that he didn't want to sell.
He only has to pay the agent fees for the transfer so he will probably lose perhaps 9% of that fee.
quote:Originally posted by socralynnek
which skills did he have?
Have you checked transfer compare for his real value?
But otherwise, I guess, you were lucky, congratulations!
I think if I remember correctly he was inadequate playmaking and scoring and had reasonable passing. he was 21. I do not think he was worth it (51.000). I hit transfer compare and I must say it made me think I was not going to get him. So I decided to go for a forward. I was allready outbid 5 or 6 times by then.) And to my surprise I got him.
I actually made a mistake, in my first post, he might have had training, but he did not paly a mathc for me. He could have played for the former owner.
quote:Originally posted by Dell19
People make a living from doing that... Daytraders buy players cheaply and sell them higher to people who don't check the transfer history and just want the player too much. Skill traders buy players close to popping and sell them as soon as they pop.
I know people make money doing that, I just did not think I could with investing very little time and having very little knowledge on prices.
I do not think I will try this again though:D
bed_head7
16-07-2005, 22:08
So, I signed up for a team four days ago, and was the only person on the waiting list. I remembered reading that it would probably take four days to get a team, or something along those lines, so I went back and checked today. Now, there are twenty five people on the waiting list, and no new teams were added yesterday. Does this mean that there are no open slots in my region?
give it time. the GMs are swamped with work. you'll get a team soon.
bed_head7
16-07-2005, 23:00
I wasn't so much asking out of impatience as curiosity. It seemed strange that a few days ago there was no one, and now there are twenty five. I don't really know yet how it all works.
Same thing happened to me when I signed up. Plan on 4 days. Do not pay attention to the who's ahead of you as it seems to me to not make sense.
BTW Welcome to the Hattrick Ranks!
Ok here's the situation:
I'm currently in 2nd place in my league. I'd like to be able to play in the qualifier for promotion if possible. I now have some questions for how to best play out the season.
1.) Regarding Formation: Last week I played a team that I was reasonable certain I was going to beat. On the recomendation of my BDF Mentor I played in a 4-5-1 formation to get some experiance with it. I'm now passable at that formation. My question is what are the benefits to playing 4-5-1 -vs- 3-5-2 ? I presume that these 2 formations are the ones I should be sticking with seeing that I am training PM.
2.) In what instance would I be better off playing one to another? Against a certain formation?
3.) Do I get the benefit of training a new formation on friendlies?
4.) My star rating for my league team playing 3-5-2 is 28.7. 4-5-1 my star rating is 26.8 (according to HO!) Am I always better playing the higher star rating?
5.) HO! Users: When I have HO! do a line up for me if I do not check any of the boxes on the lower right hand side (Best Position First or Regard to form) I can get a much higher star rating. Which way should I be setting my line-up?
That's it for now Thanks in advance for your help!
GO MARAUDERS!!
1.) 4-5-1 is a more defensive formation which is useful for playing teams that are better than you but don't necessarily have a great attack so that you push them close in midfield and then block their chances. Attack ratings can be vaguely maintained by playing wingers offensively and a midfielder. 3-4-3, 4-4-2 and 5-5-0 would also work if necessary.
2.) Generally 4-5-1 is better against better teams so you might use it with CA if you have decent defenders or pressing just to limit the score.
3.) You just gain experience in that formation.
4.) Stars are evil so it doesn't really matter which one is higher especially if you are changing your tactics to exploit a weakness in the opposition.
5.) Management Assistant programs should only really be used as a guide. Generally if you continue to move players around you will find that there is probably room for a bit of improvement.
quote:2.) Generally 4-5-1 is better against better teams so you might use it with CA if you have decent defenders or pressing just to limit the score.
What is CA?
Kingreno
18-07-2005, 20:45
It is Counter Attack. Like Attack in the middle, Pressing and Attack on Wings it is a way to play, a tactic. It can be selected from the line up screen.
I play CA almost 50% of the time and 4-5-1 is in general NOT the way to go there. When you play CA you get a chance for every chance your opponent creates. This in turn means the more chances your opponent gets, the more you get as well. Logicly the level of your CA is very important.
Good line-ups are 5-3-2 (with two wingers or at least 1 winger and all Inner Mids either offensive or Defensive), 4-3-3 (Lower CA rating, but good for scoring trainers) and 4-4-2 (played with 2 wingers, good for the Occasional CA player without experience in 5-3-2 or 4-3-3).
You need: Good defenders, and even more important, good passing with your defenders. If you cannot get 5 decent defenders do not play CA, it can utterly backfire, as your opponent will get more chances then usual!!
4-5-1. why? it is an ok-line-up for defending trainers as it still tries to dominate the midfield while only sacrificing one training spot. It is also good when you have very strong wingers (or see you chances there). It also rocks at pressing, but very specific skills are needed for that, and I lack experience there). Hope this helps.
regarding point 5, do be carefull with assistant programmes until you develop a certain feel for the game, your players and the settings of the programme.
I think (but am not sure) that checking the 'regard form' box is the better option because it is possible that a player with less qualities and excellent form does more for your time than your topplayer in wretched form. If you don't check the box it just looks at skills which does not say everything. Generally I'ld say: play your own game, count your vics & learn from your mistakes.
(like training a youthpull for 6 weeks hoping it pops *shy*)
Thanks Guys I appreciate your help!
@ Schip ~ I use HO! as a reference tool to check ehat I'm doing. So far it has never completely agreed with my line-ups but it's close. I always go with my gut feeling.
Even if it repeats what it has been said, 4-5-1 is the backup playmaking trainees formation because you still train 5 midfielders, just as the forward trainers have 4-3-3 to alternate with 3-4-3. I would use it maybe 1-3 times per season while playing better teams, who you don't expect to defeat. It will mostly determine your opponents to consider their line-up more closely, instead of being certain they will meet the same 3-5-2 every match. I think diversity in tactics and positioning can confuse any of your opponents while you can still get most of the points in matches.
Finally, several people use the 4-5-1 with both wingers offensive to maximize side attacks and chances against teams that focus on their central defense while disregarding the sides.
bed_head7
19-07-2005, 07:39
Mikey Ybarra (70213776)
19 years, passable form, healthy
A sympathetic guy who is calm and dishonest.
Has disastrous experience and solid leadership abilities.
Speciality: Unpredictable
Nationality: USA
Total Skill Index (TSI): 50
Wage: 500 US$/week
Owner:
Warnings: 0
Injuries: Healthy
Stamina: weak Goaltending: disastrous
Playmaking: disastrous Passing: inadequate
Winger: poor Defending: poor
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: poor
Career Goals: 0
Career Hattricks: 0
League goals this season: 0
Cup goals this season: 0
Bought this guy for $4,000 dollars. I thought after a the next season finishes his experience might get up a bit and I could get rid of my coach and replace him with the guy above. But since I got him for so little, I feel like I have made some blunder here. Have I?
socralynnek
19-07-2005, 09:55
The problem with your guy is that the coach level can't be higher than the experience.
So, you would have to bring him at least to weak experience to be able to make him your coach (which can last some seasons) and even then you could only make a weak coach which is not what you want by then.
At least this player should be a semi-clown so he is a little useful and $4000 won't make you poor.
bed_head7
19-07-2005, 10:01
Oh, okay. But semi-clown?
socralynnek
19-07-2005, 10:09
quote:Originally posted by Mistfit
Ok here's the situation:
GO MARAUDERS!!
So, as I am also training PM and have 4-5-1 as my second formation, I want to answer...
1) Yes, those 2 formations are the best you can train a s a PM coach.
5-5-0 and 2-5-3 would also be ok for your training but you can't get experience for it.
2)3-5-2 is best, if you want to win the game.
4-5-1 will give you a bad central attack rating but strong central defense.
4-5-1 is ok if you play against a stronger team, where you want to limit the loss (so pressing seems a good option then).
So, with a 4-5-1 you might go for a 0-0.
For counter attack, there are better options, I think (for example 5-2-3 or 5-3-2)
3) You get experience with it and can play them afterwards with a smaller chance of confusion
4) Don't look at the stars of the whole team. Stars can only indicate which player is better than the other but even that can be misleading.
Look at the ratings and compare them.
If you want to play defensive, play 4-5-1, offensive play 3-5-2 (3-5-2 is very flexible, e.g. if your midfielders are set to defensive then you have a defensive 3-5-2)
5) I have also used the best line-up tool of HO at the beginning. It's good to play around with the options and compare the outcome, but don't rely on it too much, and you won't need it soon...
And again: look at ratings not stars...
And, Yeah GO MARAUDERS!
@bed_head7:
The player with the highest leadership in your team is the team leader and influences the team spirit. Since he is a sympathetic guy he influences the Team spirit in a positive way so he is called a semi-clown. If he was popular instead of sympathetic, he would be a clown. If he was controversial or so he would be called an anti-clown and would deter your team spirit.
Anyway, these effects are barely noticeable and it will not materially affect your team, at least until you reach Division III or so when every bit of advantage matters. In order to prepare to get a coach you can either get one with experience already to solid and good leadership and pay a premium for that or buy a player with inadequate or passable experience and be prepared to play him for several seasons.
Take my player as an example: (will add in later, HT does not work ATM)
bed_head7
19-07-2005, 10:30
Does it often become inactive due to high server activity?
@ bed_head - actually I have never seen it down due to that. It is down fairy frequently for fixes and upgrades but they will anounce that on the page that shows up when you log in on the right hand side.
congrats on the team
Edit: I suggest you post your team and let the experts here look at it. It will really help you get off to a good start. Also post the name of your team so I can book mark it to see how you are doing!
I found you team! The dented Slides [lol]
I've found this site to be very interesting. It's called HatStat
http://usa.hatstats.info/search.php
You were put in a pretty tough series. The top dogs on the list have 40+ star ratings... For comparison in my series the top is 32 stars
EDIT2:
I found this on HT
quote:Hattrick announces
7/19/2005 Problems Accessing Hattrick
In the last week we have received scattered reports from users who have not been able to access Hattrick for a couple of hours or even days. While this is a problem that is very difficult to troubleshoot, we believe that it has to do with our firewall. We have now ordered a new and better firewall which we hope to get in two weeks time.
As a temporary work-around, we have set up an extra web server outside our firewall at http://extra.hattrick.org/
Please use this server ONLY if you cannot access Hattrick the normal way. Otherwise it might become overloaded and the people who really need it will be left out in the cold.
barbu1977
29-07-2005, 14:49
Some of my best player's form went down by 2 in 3 weeks. This week, I practiced passing and it went down on 6 player and up on 3.
Appart from practicing stamina that ruins players form, what else affects it?
There's 2 types of player form actually... the form as you see it on your screen, which is the current form and influences player ability on the pitch, and another -hidden- form type, named background form, which is the form that the current form moves towards each week.
So what you really need is to get that background form up, as that is what decides where your current form is moving towards. Each player has a 33% chance of changing this hidden background form per training update, so if you are unlucky, a player with a very low background form stays that way for several weeks as it misses out on the chance of having that background form changed.
If background form is changed, chances are higher that it moves up if that player played a match that week, so make sure you try to play everyone in a game once a week.
Several other factors influence form as well, though I'm not sure with most of them whether it is current or background form they improve. These include:
Trainer's training ability (higher skill gives better form)
Training general (improves only current form, or so it seems)
Training stamina (impairs form)
Assistant coaches (goalkeeping coaches improve keeper form, assistants improve outfielder form)
There is little else you can do about form except praying before each training update ;)... most of the time it will be around passable for most of your players. Just make sure they play each week, and you should be really unlucky to have a severe form-crisis for more than a few weeks on a player. (Though I had a keeper trainee in weak or lower form for over 13 weeks with 9 goalkeeping coaches and a solid trainer during one period, he must have been cursed or something... [crazyeye] )
barbu1977
29-07-2005, 15:13
Wow, that was quick and complete. Thanks.
Hi Guys. My collegue got the following message:
Training is verloren gegaan door onbegrijpelijke acties van de manager. (Training has been lost because of ununderstandable actions of the manager).
Does anybody know what causes this?
Not sure which team he has, but probably he played more than 1+ the standard amount of players in a line (i.e. either 6 defenders, 4 inner mids, or 4 forwards)?
Or maybe he caused a walkover, or hired more than 10 assistants perhaps... ?
socralynnek
01-08-2005, 12:36
I know the following reasons:
-Playing more then 3 inner players (Central Defenders, inner midfielders or forwards, so even with 4 defenders you can have a bad line-up, when you let them all play in the middle)
(But towards middle doesn't count for that)
-Fielding less then 9 players
Yep, he (FC Tofra) played a 3-6-1 for his friendlies. Does he loose the training for his sunday match as well?
socralynnek
01-08-2005, 13:14
He loses it in the training after the said match, so everything should be ok now...
Kingreno
01-08-2005, 17:09
Iirc the training is lost for the entire week.
socralynnek
01-08-2005, 17:48
Yeah, that's what I meant : The next training is lost, so if your friendly is the problem then the league macth afterwards is ok, but the league match before doesn:t get counted.
If I beat the guy in the #1 spot in 2 weeks and I already tied him early in the season and we end up with the same # of points at the end of the season but he has a bigger spread of points than I do... will he win the chance at promotion where I will not?
socralynnek
09-08-2005, 09:46
What do you mean with "spread of points"?
But anyway, if you both have the same no of points, then the goal difference is the next criterion
You have +26 and he now has +27, but if you beat himthen yours might be better, depending on next week's results.
Only No.1 in your league can promote (some directly, some via relegation)
If goal difference is the same and you have te same goals for the rumour is that a coin is flipped to decide who goes up.
I have 0 chance of promoting then. He has a much easier schedule remaining than I do. As a matter of fact he will probably score 8-10 goals this comming week.
In american football if 2 teams have the same record the next criteria they look at is the record between the 2 teams. If one has won all of the games against the other he ends up with the promoting/going to the playoffs.Score differential is way down on the list. But that of course is a completely different game.
quote:Taken from Hattrick Rules: "League position is calculated using, in order of importance, league points, goal difference, and goals scored."
I found it in the rules... :( oh well not even a snowballs chance in [fdevil] to win this season
tomtrow I have to play a team that lost its owner today. Since I am playing in the lowest division passble teams do get replaced in the middle off the season.
I would like to know if het is going to be replaced tomoorow or a bot-team? If this guy is replaced by a new owner there would be a good chance that the new owner won't login tomorrow and I will have a walk over. So I can pic than, otherwise I have to play normal, because my goal difference is important.
If the guy gets replaced and does not log in, he will still have a team fielded (although it will be a very weak team), since the game autosets a lineup for new players.
Whether or not he gets replaced depends on the people responsible for taking care of the waiting list, I suppose... if they do their jobs well, maybe the team will have a new owner fast. Seems unlikely to me though.
Also it depends on the waiting queue in your country. If there's noone on the list, the team won't be replaced for some time. Also, sometime they prefer to fill new (bot) divisions with players rather than filling one team in a division.
quote:Originally posted by yndy
Also it depends on the waiting queue in your country. If there's noone on the list, the team won't be replaced for some time. Also, sometime they prefer to fill new (bot) divisions with players rather than filling one team in a division.
Queue is almost non-existend (3). No complete botleaugues in the dutch competition XI has filled up. So chances are that I play ownerless team in the last round. He also lost his team saturday. Should be an easy victory.
bed_head7
18-08-2005, 09:56
Many of you seem to be supporters. What's the point?
It’s a very nice game and as long you are playing for a longer time (I think most of us will be still playing one year from now) you can help the creators so that they will not lose interest and just shut it down one day.
Practical things:
a) Bookmarks – it’s hard to find things in the game and bookmarking allows you to track players, teams, matches and users. Very useful when putting together a list of potential players to buy.
b) Team – logo; team kits; Press Anouncement – bragging rights and taking involvement in your team.
c) Guestbook; Federations – community enhancing stuff, also nice.
bed_head7
18-08-2005, 12:31
I guess maybe I will consider doing that once I am 18 and finding a means of paying will be simpler. I imagine that I will still be playing in the years to come.
At home I have about 5 Championship Manager games that I've paid for so since I'm spending a similar time playing hattrick it made sense to contribute something towards it. Also its not like the MMORPGs where you could end up paying £10 every month rather than every year.
What makes a Winger or a CD better at Play towards the middle? Is it passing? Playmaking?
I suppose for CD you mean "offensive"? :)
Both need decent playmaking/stamina for these orders, and their winger/defending skill will have less impact on the attack and defensive ratings respectively.
In the case of a wingback towards the middle... I don't know what the exact usefulness of this is, only played it once and it didn't seem to add much central defense, but I lost a lot of wing defense though.
Yeah wing back is what I meant. I played one game against a pretty tough opponent this year with everone on offence and Playing towards middle. He beat me in almost everything except Midfield and I won the match. I don't know if this was a fluke or a viable tactic but I thought if I'm looking at secondaries for player I'd keep this in mind.
socralynnek
03-09-2005, 19:40
AFAIK Wingback towards middle has almost no effect on central defence ratings but is bad for your wing defence.
Winger To Middle is good if you have one with playmaking plus stamina skills.
Kingreno
03-09-2005, 19:56
Hmm, I disagree. I used WTM quite often, it is sort of between "normal"-mode and the whole other "extra central defender"- mode. The main advantage is that you increase your defence in the middle while still maintaining some form of wingactivity both offensive and defensive.
As for skills, I have not noticed much of the PM or stamina skill when using WTM. The defending skill is still say 95% important.
Just to get things straight... WTM = Winger towards the middle in my book, I suppose that is not what you are aiming at KR. If going for WBTM, what exactly is the difference in your opinion between playing the wingback defensively or towards the middle with regard to the central defense rating? I didn't notice much difference when I tried.
I suppose what you say here is that you should play WBs with lots of winging TM rather than defensively if you a) want to give an extra boost solely to the central defense, and b) keep some extra wing attack that way as well?
In that case, I suppose it is a tactic only for those possessing *very* expensive defenders. ;)
bed_head7
04-09-2005, 02:32
quote:Originally posted by bed_head7
I guess maybe I will consider doing that once I am 18 and finding a means of paying will be simpler. I imagine that I will still be playing in the years to come.
Ended up doing it and supporter does seem rather nice. Lots of useful statistics to look through.
Kingreno
04-09-2005, 07:22
Kemal, indeed WBTM I meant.[blush2]
The thing is with defensive wingbacks that they mean absolutely nothing when your opponent has no Winger (offensive/normal) on that side OR when that player is playing AIM. A WB defensive contributes almost nothing to that wings offensive capability and having a magnificent left side defence means not that much to me when my opponent is AIM or has a wretched right side attack. That's just a waste of resources! In short: only play WB defensive when your opponent will (likely) play his winger on that side offensive AND that winger has a decent ammount of stars compared to your defender. In long:
-If your opponent plays AIM, play with 2 CD and either your WB (1 or 2) towards middle or offensive depending on how good his central attack is.
-If your opponent plays 3-4-3 (thus leaving one wing open) match his winger (90% stick to the same side they attack on!!). If his goes Towards middle your WB goes either off or WBTM. If it is off, go def, if it is def go off. On the side he has no winger most here having only 3 defenders should put no WB and play with 2 CD. If you do have 2 WB make sure the one without a job is playing Off or WBTM, again depending on how strong his central attack is and (not mentioned earlier) whether you stand a chance on the wing you play offensive WB!
-If your opponent plays 3-5-2 with 2 offensive wingers think carefully about def WB! Usually this guy will be training PM thus his wingers will likely get their rating from a decent PM skill instead of that winger skill. If his wingers are not very very good I'd say this is a perfect case for normal WB. Having a bit of everything, or even an offensive WB if the guy plays his 3-5-2, with 2 CD, of course on the side where he has no WB.
I love sunday morning HT chitchat![coool]
quote:Upcoming Matches
9/15/2005 (Cup): Puerto Rico Apaches - Mistfit's_Marauders
Orders
How'd I get this game? Please explain Cup game to me...
Kingreno
08-09-2005, 15:11
OK.
Every country has a cup. There is a fixed number of teams allowed in the cup that play Knock-out matches (win and go on, lose and you're out). Until in the end one teams wins: the cup. Since you apparently finished high enough to participate you are in the cup. Cup matches are great because: They attract a lot more crowd then friendlies, experience in three times higher then leaguematches and the midweek match actually counts for something! The small downside is that when you lose an early round your supporters will be angry and you are 'forced' to play your best players on the cupmatch so more risk in injurries.
Sweet... Looks like I should at least be able to beat the first guy :D
What is the deal with the league this week? Do we have matches tomorrow? In one place it said yes in the other it said it was the following week? Do I put a line up together for "matches" or not?
Kingreno
17-09-2005, 16:41
You should have a match tomorrow!
Anyone who can tell me a bit about transforming players to coaches? I have a 30 year old player with solid exp and passable leadership. Before he retires he could reach excellent exp. Would he be any good as a trainer?
Yes he would be very useful. Mainly because of the leadership which would allow you to get higher team spirit levels when PICing which increases your potential midfield. I think you are in a lower league though at the moment? So you may want to wait until next season as it will be cheaper to convert him to a coach if he hits excellent experience and you will have the higher leadership when you really need it.
I;m not retiring him anytime soon. Unless he gets seriously injured he has 2 to 3 seasons left of defending for PP SV.
Coaches can still play for your team though. Basically it would make sense to convert him when you next need a coach, ideally when he is injured as the conversion removes injuries and when you are in a situation where the extra leadership would be useful.
so coaches dont lose their 'normal'playing stats?!?!
No, you can use them for as long as you want.
Shabbaman
29-09-2005, 11:54
Q: do you gain experience with AIM playing that tactic or is it based on your team? On what, exactly? My guess is midfield passing rating.
Shabbaman
29-09-2005, 12:16
Another question, what should I watch for in a wing defender?
You mean a defensive playing winger or a wingback?
Kingreno
29-09-2005, 12:34
AIM skill is determined by the passing skill of all outfield players. However the effectivity is also determinded by the ammount of Wingattack that is 'converted' to AIM. If you play 3-4-3 with defensive backs and a WTM you get little from AIM as that is already where the bulk of the power is...
As for Wingbacks; my experience with them is that versatality (sp?) is very nice. Having both Winger and Defending means he can play offensive (winger) and defensive (defending) depending on the tactical situation. Playing them 'Normal' is also an option though it sort'a means you're not sure what you want with it.
Shabbaman
29-09-2005, 12:56
I need a defensive wingback for that big gaping hole that is in my defense on the "other" wing, i.e. where I play without a winger on the midfield.
Kingreno
29-09-2005, 13:16
Then ignore winger for that spot. Defensive WB's need very little winger if any. My "best" WB-defensive has briliant defending and wretched winger.
quote:Originally posted by Kingreno
My "best" WB-defensive has briliant defending and wretched winger.
Please, do submit him for the CDZ All-Star team!
Btw, agree with KR, look for pure defenders for defensive wingbacks. But on the AIM/AOW tactic skill, I thought it was only passing of midfield and forwards, not the whole team. Then again, I rarely play these tactics, so I'm not a very reliable source of info on this I'm afraid. :)
Shabbaman
29-09-2005, 14:21
Thanks.
And if I'd want to buy a wingback for the wing with the offensive winger? Defense and wing?
A wwingback played normal would probably need equal defending and winger abilities. If he's to play offensive, I'd say you need a good winger with decent defending (inadequate-passable) and if possible inadequate-passable playmaking.
Ans some stamina as well, as that goes hand in hand with playmaking. I agree with yndy though that the winging is most important for offensive wingbacks.
Kingreno
30-09-2005, 08:49
My solid winger (close to excel) with inadequate PM/excel stamina does better on Offensive WB then my Briliant defender (close to magni) with wretched winger. That says enough I think.
hey I'm playing a guy that is scoring trainer that takes his extra forward from his WingBack posission and sometimes plays his wing towards the middle. Is this a good op to try attack at the wings? I've never done it before but I thought I'd check with you guys to see what you thought before I screwed up the game
Shabbaman
01-10-2005, 09:43
In my humble opinion, AOW and AIM suck big time. The few times I played it it didn't do me any good. As confirmed here, the experience with the tactic is your combined passing skill (or the combined passing skill of your midfield and forwards). It doesn't generate more chances, it just diverts them.
But!
What you should do is play (your best) offensive winger in that "hole" in his defence. Add some more strength to it by playing a offensive wingback (adds to winger attack).
Kingreno
01-10-2005, 10:01
@ Mistfit:
If he placed an extra forward from the Wingback that means he only has 2 innermids. You'll nail him on posession big time if you play 3 innermids. And like Shabba said play your best winger offensively on the spot where his defense is open.
Shabbaman
01-10-2005, 11:57
True, he plays 3-4-3 with only 2 inner mids... BTW, your midfield is so much stronger it shouldn't be a problem anyway. You could think about strengthening your central defence: instead of a central defender repositioned to the midfield you could reposition a wingback (the "other" wingback, obviously!).
Quick question, I desperately need it for tomorrow league game:
Do I lose training playing 2-5-3? It seems to be the only way for me to try to draw or win and I can get to high inadequate midfield with this setup and mots (both wingers to middle, forwards defensive and defenders offensive [crazyeye] ). If I lose training, I can still try to play 3-5-2 instead. The rules say that training can be lost when 2 extra players are placed in "normal" position, i.e., 4 forwards or 6 defenders. And nothing about playing with 2 defenders. There certainly would be confusion but that might be OK, team spirit might counter that to certain extent as well as mots.
[confused]
bed_head7
09-10-2005, 03:41
No, you won't lose training.
2-5-3 and 5-5-0 are both legal formations however I wouldn't use them in competitive games as you cannot build up experience in the formation so unless you have a captain with international level experience you are likely to suffer from too much confusion.
I think I'll go for it despite confusion. I can rather easily get to very high inadequate or very low passable midfield only playing 2-5-3. This gives me about 50-55% for win, 15-20% for draw and 25-35% for a loss which is playing away and motsing against a far superior team with 85-90 hatstats compared to my 65-70. With confusion it might be not that promising but should still be Ok, around 45% for win, 20% for draw and 35% for a loss which is acceptable level of risk. I then would have a home match against a "beatable" team and away match against a somewhat weaker team so motsing should not be that devastating on team spirit. Losing this one however would be devastating on my income and would kill all hope for 4th place this season. We'll see how it goes in about 8 hours.
It will be interesting to see the outcome.
Like Dell I would strongly advise against it, since the HTs have greatly upped the penalty for confusion recently, but in a situation you are in, who knows it might pay off.
I wonder what miracles that third forward can do, to win your match? I did play 2-5-3 but rather when I was pretty sure I would lose anyway and felt like going for a risky approach. For a match I really want to win, I would MoTS but would not risk the entire match with a 2-5-3.
The third forward increases my central attack to low solid against his inadequate defence so that I can score at least something since I'm playing the two other forwards defensive. I've tried to simulate the match with 3-5-2 and even though I can get to high/very high inadequate midfield, it is not enough to give me substantial chance (20% win, 25% draw and 55% loss). Seems that having third defender does not help at all since his attack is formidable-excellent-excellent and there is no way for me to counter that in the near future. But I can try to beat his defence by strengthening attack.
Edited: By playing around with lineup, I was able to get to the following probabilities in sumulation:
win 52%, draw 26%, loss 22%. That might work but we'll see how it goes. There is also stamina effect which iirc is not well considered into these simulations in HO, so may be probability of winning is around 48-50% indeed.
What are the stats that determine defender ratings? Just defending for defending and passing for playing CA or something else as well?
Adn a second question: I have an injured player who has a red cross and 1 week next to his name. So although he doesnt have a band aid he's said to be bruised but training and I he doesnt show up red in the line up part.
If I line him up, will he play or will he immediately be replaced by the reserve?
I hope someone can answer me quickly I need to line up for my cup match :)
He will be replaced, you can only play when it says bruised, but playing, even if the line-up doesn't point him out as injured (red). 100% sure.
@ Akots
The confusion will probably damage your potential ratings.
Yes, it did take off about half a star from almost each player. But I had won 6-0. This is confusing but the only way to get decent results and keep the training going.
bed_head7
14-11-2005, 03:04
At what point does high team confidence start to be detrimental? I assumed wonderful would be the best possible confidence to have, but after my last game I am not so sure. Last week, my midfield was high wretched while PiC'ing. This week, essentially the same midfield (last week a mid played toward wing, this week the mid played normal, so midfield should have been stronger) get a low wretched rating, also while PiC'ing. Is it the team confidence, or something entirely different.
you usually score one level higher on your midfield playing at home versus playing away. COuld that be the cause?
bed_head7
14-11-2005, 08:36
I played away two weeks ago with the same midfield virtually and an even lower TS, and also had higher midfield rating.
It is (partly) because you played one MF towards the wing in game 2, this causes the MF to use less playmaking (less midfield rating) but increases wing attack.
Also, team confidence does not effect midfield, but team spirit does. Even though the rules say TC does effect TS, which would lead one to believe it effects midfield indirectly, I have never ever seen my TS drop faster or slower whatever TC I had, so even if the effect is there in the first place, it seems to be negligable.
It does effect your attack ratings though, the higher the TC, the better your ratings.
bed_head7
14-11-2005, 09:58
Oh, stupid me. I played that guy towards wing last week as well, and thought I changed him to normal this week. I guess I did not. That would probably explain the problem. Thanks.
If a guy is red carded can he play in a friendly game?
I need to know with in 3 hours please [mistfit]
TY Kemal... I can always count on you to help with my silly n00b questions :D
Is it just me, or has the defender market suddenly collapsed beyond recognition? I was browsing the transfer markets as I still need to replace a passable defender I am using in league matches, and was expecting to be able to get a formi defender for 700 - 900K, but I noticed that now formi defenders are selling for as little as 500K, and 800K actually seems a reasonable price for outstanding defenders!
Now, 4 weeks ago I spent some time searching for another defender, and was very happy that I managed to obtain a formi defender/solid LS defender (future coach prospect) for 845K(!), after having failed on several others for these prices! [eek]
Even forwards are selling at better prices than this at those levels, and they train way quicker and easier... I was wondering does anyone have an idea on whether these low prices are structural, or is the end of season dip for defenders always this big? Kinda feel ripped off with my formi defender now, and am curious whether I should buy another now.
Mistfit scurries off to look at the Defenders Market :D
Edit: Thanks Kemal
I just picked up a Defender with:
Solid Defending
Passable Passing
Inad Wing for 68K
That seems very low to me. And there were 45K people on line as well.
This Guy will be my #2 best defender I think.
Mistfit scurries off to fire up HO to do come comparing
I guess all markets are going down in this part of the season. It's a seasonal thing, prices will stopp falling this week or the next, maintain the level throughout the inter-season period and begin rising from week 2 onward to about week 7 of the next season.
Check http://www.lokesoftware.dk/ham/menu.cfm?showMenu=tpestats and try any graph for any position and you'll identify the seasonal change.
Hmm, do you need to register to get graphs or am I doing something wrong?
I get a table showing average transfer prices, but here prices are way higher than what players are selling for right now, which is probably because secondaries can lift the average price way up.
I do know about the end of season dip, however, some types of players seem to be hit harder... last 2 seasons I bought 3 outstanding midfielders for 808, 800, and 1097K respectively, and those are now, at almost the same time of the year, selling for at least 200K more, for the same skills.
Shabbaman
30-11-2005, 10:20
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
I was wondering does anyone have an idea on whether these low prices are structural, or is the end of season dip for defenders always this big?
Well, when I started to train attackers, the market for attackers collapsed and the prise of defenders rose. This might be a correction, after all. Might be wishful thinking though.
Strangely enough, the market for forwards does seem to be going up after the FTW changes...
Could be I share your wishful thinking though, I suppose. [yeah]
Shabbaman
16-12-2005, 11:11
Should I convert a player into a solid coach with (at least) passable leadership or not? As I understand it keeps your TS up. Is it worth it? Other things to keep in mind (agreeability and so on) when buying a player/coach?
I think it would be a good idea although personally I am waiting for my future coach to pop to excellent experience and my current coach to finally drop to disastrous leadership so that the conversion is as cheap as possible. Mine only has inadequate leadership but it would only cost around 400k more which isn't bad for a coach that will last twice as long.
The rules don't mention an affect of coach agreeability although new teams seem to always have a coach with a high agreeability. Two out of eight premiership clubs have a low agreeability coach.
When do cup games show up in the match queue?
Quite early on. After the qualification games I think and you can already find out your opponent.
Shabbaman
20-12-2005, 11:49
Are there any penalties associated with changing the name of your stadium? I've found it costs 4k euros.
Its just the 4k cost if I recall correctly.
Shabbaman
20-12-2005, 14:16
Good, time to rename my stadium. Thanks [worship]
barbu1977
20-12-2005, 15:37
Is there any reference on how TSI works?
TSI seems to go up exponentially so the difference between an outstanding and a formidable is bigger than between formidable and excellent.
Sub skills influence TSI and so does form and fitness and so at extremely low levels of form it becomes much harder to predict the skills of a player and the same with injuries.
Some skills have more of an influence than others. A player with playmaking skill should see the stamina rating have a bigger influence on the overall TSI or at least an impact that needs to be considered.
Wages broadly give a better idea of the actual skills of a player as they are meant to be more predictable.
There are several tools that try to judge whether a player is close to popping by looking at wages or TSI and the player skills however they are not that accurate and some people are more accurate at predicting whether a player will be close to popping or not. This knowledge is spreading so its harder to gain bargains on these sorts of players especially for strikers and defenders.
barbu1977
20-12-2005, 17:56
Tanks. That cleared things up a little
quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman
Good, time to rename my stadium. Thanks [worship]
I appreciate the oppurtunity to play in your newly named stadium with this well deserved name. Althoug I booked in teh Sint Kees, I am am quit happy to play in teh oosterpark memorial stadium.
EDIT: New topic started ----> HERE (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3311)
Did everyone notice this?
quote:Match engine updates
12/21/2005
Next season, we will make the following 12 adjustments to the game engine. They will all take effect on January 2, 2006. We are making these changes in order to stimulate a broader use of different tactical (yet realistic) options, and to balance the game engine.
More natural field positions
1. Today, it can be hard to achieve balanced formations using repositioned players. To address that, players will now move into more “natural” positions on the field when a repositioning has been made. This applies to both the repositioned player as to players that are left behind. For example, inner defenders (ID) and inner midfielders (IM) will be considered centered on the pitch when there is only one ID or IM remaining in the formation. Today, the player keeps either his left or right side orientation when the second player is moved away, creating a small gap in the defense or the midfield. Similarly, if a team part is boosted by an extra player; this player will be considered centered as well. A left defender repositioned into a midfield position will not, as today, keep his left side orientation in the match simulation but rather play in perfect center of the field.
Centered IMs will contribute half of normal to wing defense, but they contribute to wing defense on both sides. Thus, you can say that they divide their wing defense contribution equally on both wings. Similarly, a centered ID divides his contribution to wing defense onto both wings, and centered IMs divide their contribution to wing attack to both wings.
Repositioned players, and players that are the only IM or the only ID will always be considered centered. Only those two groupd of players will be centered.
Defense modifications for midfielders and wingers
2. The contribution to wing defense from all inner midfielders is reduced by 30%, except for IMs playing "Towards wing" where the contribution is the same as before. This is in addition to any changes to "centered" IMs and IDs mentioned in 1).
3. The contribution to central defense from IMs is increased by 10%.
4. The contribution to wing defense is increased by 40% for wingers with order "Normal" and with 30% for wingers with order "Defensive".
Defense modifications for defenders
5. The contribution to wing defense from IDs is reduced by 8% and the contribution to central defense from them (IDs) is increased by 8%.
6. Inner Defender with order Towards Wing will have his contribution to wing defense reduced by 10% and his contribution to central defense increased by 10%.
7. Wing-Back with Defensive order will lose 20% of his contribution to central defense.
8. Wing-Back with order Towards Middle will increase his contribution to central defense by 20%.
Goalkeeper adjustment
9. We are making yet another small adjustment to the relative importance of keepers and defenders to the overall defense rating. The contribution of the keeper on defense will be reduced by 1%, and the influence of the defense skill of the defenders will increase by 1%.
New life for defensive forwards
10. The contribution from passing skill for forwards with order "defensive" will increase by 30%.
11. In addition to the increase mentioned in 10) above, forwards with defensive order that have the technical specialty will gain an additional 50% boost to the contribution of their passing skill to central attacks, and they will gain a minor contribution to wing attacks from passing skill. The thinking behind this is to help simulate the real-world option of the withdrawn forward (a central player between midfielders and forwards) who uses his sensitive foot to deliver great passes.
More flexible lineups
12. We will allow repositioning for wingers to inner midfielders. And we will allow repositioning for wing backs to inner defenders. However, be aware that a winger repositioned as an inner midfielder will only contribute slightly more to playmaking than a winger that is playing with towards the middle as his individual order. This means that the price of abandoning the flank entirely is very high, just in order to gain that very minor playmaking benefit. But from now on, at least it will be possible to go against that recommendation.
HT-Johan
Melifluous
21-12-2005, 15:26
Holy crap.
What a change!
And thats taking effect on the 2nd?
Wowzers!
[meli]
Yes, it sure seems like quite a change, and would deserve its own thread, I think. Is it possible to split posts and create a new thread starting from mistfit's post, using the current forum software?
Melifluous
21-12-2005, 16:48
Shabba done sorted it already
[meli]
Shabbaman
29-12-2005, 09:37
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
Yes, it sure seems like quite a change, and would deserve its own thread, I think. Is it possible to split posts and create a new thread starting from mistfit's post, using the current forum software?
No.
In other news:
Should I spent my money on a coach with passable leadership or on a stadium expansion?
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