Kingreno vs Erikk #3 *** SPOILAH ***

[Kingreno]

Settings: Pangaeamap, demigod, standard size, barbs off (probably?)

Erikk: The despicable Celts
Kingreno: Mighty Rome!

Map is made by Killer and I thank him for that![goodjob]

This is game number three between Erikk and me. I lead at the moment, the score is 2-0! Erikk told me he will beat me this time. He is wrong.[mwaha]

The start...[eek]



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Well, if Erikk gets even remotely the same start...his agri trait is only partly useful. At first sight production will vastly outweigh growth, and that is a good thing from a roman Perspective. Long term plans are to fend off any Celtic GS-plans. If we manage to do that my traits will outgun him in the later game. Also, landing some legionares (20?) in his Backyard may help.[evil]

[Pastorius]

goodie goodie, ancient/middle age sword battle [jump]

I expect to see nothing less of all out battle (please please please)

[Kingreno]

YOU ARE NOT going to get that.[sad]

The Roman life is hard and difficult. We have yet to discover many techs and in the world we are looked upon as savages. In diplo the romans were mostly puny in their culture and weak in their military. That is true. Bu there is hope, there is always hope.
Some time ago I met Erikk and he is like REALY close. I managed to tlak him into a very long Peace treaty and that relieved me immensly. He could have just attacked me with GS and there's be very very little for me to do against that. Mind you that at that time I had no IW yet, no Barracks, a few warriors perhaps. Erikk was leading me by what 6 techs? Thank god the Inca won the Philorace![hmm]
The lands as they look now:



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I switched production in Rome to the MoM because there is something interesting on the map, the SoZ is on!

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The Indians have started it some turns ago, but Calcutta as our Warrior found out will not Outproduce Roma:


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That is some 200ish turns to go Gandhi!
Problem is I have yet to link up Ivory AND acquire Math. I have Lit in 8 turns now and that should trade me math, also Ivory is to be liked in 8 turns. So by building a wonder in the cap there is some risk but no wonders have been built yet so I am confident I can switch long enough for the SoZ to be available.
Normally the SoZ would be not too good'a wonder but since I have no horses nearby or even half nearby these guys will surely come in handy.
As for the stats:



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Naturally being first in Pop rocks my head of.[charge]

The MM:





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[Pastorius]

I guess it was mapmaker's intention to have a sword battle with the placement of your civs though. Good thing Erikk was persuaded :) Looks like you are equal in land area more or less

I think your wonder choice is indeed a good choice considering the situation you seem to be in. Are horses in neighbouring lands?

So, are your starts equal? If so, how do you think Erikk got a lead on you? Where did you develop differently? I wanna learn more about the initial phase of a pbem :)

[Kingreno]

Okay Paal, here goes:

Erikk's land. Notice that our first say 9x9 tiles are the same. The rest is a little different, but not that much.

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Now, these are my lands with Erikk's cities marked with Green Cirkels, the number indicates the order of founding.
In Blue, my order of founding.



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It is immediately clear that city 3, Napoli, is a great city for me, on a lux, on the sea and near fresh water. For Erikk the loaction lacks fresh water, whcih for his agri trait makes this site less attractive. There are more reasons but I'll get to that later. Please also note that every player has totaly different setlingplans (or none) and these are not good or bad per se.
My decision on founding city 2, Milano, was for the reasons:
-On the sea, I am commercial and thus can build a curragh from start! I need to explore.
-On the river: extra commerce, no need for aquaduct, more trade on tiles next to the river.
-Near a Bonusresourcem wheated Floodplain, +5 food and that means a 2 turn worker factory (or a very hard 4 turn-setler factory, since there is not enough production probably.)

We see that Erikk founded his second city one tile closer to the Capitol. This is by no means a bad move. Remember that he may not have scouted the lands there and the location at itslef is ok. However, mine is better (And I by no means want to sound arrogant! Kemal or Anarres would easily burn this placement strat!) because it has more tiles to work on, including a fishbonus and 2 grasslands. Normaly Dense city is ok, but since there is nothing behind Milano, the location I chose is great.

After selecting a second growth factory it is time for happiness. I will build a granary in both roma and Milano so I need luxes there. There are two nearby. I decide to found Napoli, as said before it has fresh water/sea/lux. It does not get any better then that. In some games I'd also go grany there but since I met agressive neighbours (babylon and Persia) as well this is pangaea I will build barax after a few warriors.

Erikk has build Lugdunum as city II. He chose the Wheated Floodplains over a lux at that time probably since with his agritrait he'd crank out nr's 4 and 5 soon too. It is an ok choice but I am happy I waited a while before founding there.

I founded Genoa because it is ON silks. so a second lux. It also has a cow and some nice hills and Mountains for production in the later game. Erikk also founded on the spot there. Not much to say about it realy.

Here we come at a different choice. I had scouted the Ivory up east and sent my 4th setler there. A setler from Milano founded Torino North of Rome. Nothing special abput it. On a river is nice again, and it will grow as well as I intend to use the Game for it. I beat persia and Babylon to the Ivory, while the Indians beat Erikk! The main reason for this is that even when Ravenna and Bologna are more productive cities I will get these anyway! There is zero chance the AI will settle there before the next setler is done in my core, while the Ivory spot with 3 ivory-tiles is very hot.
To rap the founding up, six, seven and eight were founded in two turns to make the core complete. The eight city has wines btw.

As a result my Lands are slightly bigger then Erikks. My cities just a bit further apart. Nothing that major but let it be 10%? Or 8%? I'd also like others to have their thought on this. Would you have founded differently? iF so, why? Remember I sent out my scouting warrior East, by chance.

As for how I know erikks founding order, check the list for the Celts in the civlopedia. now you know hwy I rename my cities!:D

[Socrates]

Very, very, very nice, Kingreno ! [goodjob] Superb explanation, this is the first time I read such a post in a PBEM spoiler. Maybe I had read such stuff back in my heavy SP games in 2003, but that was long ago. Quite a refreshment, to the least. :)

I enjoy the way you described the general harmony that must come up with your settling order (capital, then worker/settler factory, then cities on luxes, then beating the AIs to ivory, then filling back the core). Quickly going to ivory and then filling back the core is a must in the majority of games. The trick is to find the right moment to get there, because sending a settler to ivory immediately (like city #2 or #3) is counter-productive : you need some solid basement in your core first.

Funnily I often go first on high-food spots, before considering luxes. [hmm] I always do it simple : grab the food bonuses first, unless they're quite far away (corruption), then grab bonus grasslands and rivers... then grab the luxes on poor spots. Maybe I need more harmony, but maybe each city can be more productive too.

Keep up the good work ! [cool]

[Lt. Killer M]

oh man, the SoZ on sucks big time!

sorry!!!

[akots]

I also noticed you are mining the game between Torino and Roma (not sure it is a good decision). I would have probably moved Torino 1 tile SW and irrigate the game. Also, if Ravenna will be moved 1 tile SW, it can share two cows with Genoa and/or Rome and by building Granary in one of those cities(apparently Genoa), it might be possible to greatly boost the growth. Bologna could have been moved 1 tile NW to get the fishes in radius and to free a place for a fishermen village on one of the costal hills. Also, I don't see the reason for stopping settler production but it might be you have a better perspective here. However, with clearing marshes and irrigating two game tiles there, a city somewhere in between Torino, Venezia and Ravenna will be a nice worker factory.

In general, strating location seems extremely nice with lots and lots of food and shields which basically substantially diminishes the advantage of argi trait of erikk.

[Kingreno]

quote:Originally posted by akots

I also noticed you are mining the game between Torino and Roma (not sure it is a good decision). I would have probably moved Torino 1 tile SW and irrigate the game. Also, if Ravenna will be moved 1 tile SW, it can share two cows with Genoa and/or Rome and by building Granary in one of those cities(apparently Genoa), it might be possible to greatly boost the growth. Bologna could have been moved 1 tile NW to get the fishes in radius and to free a place for a fishermen village on one of the costal hills. Also, I don't see the reason for stopping settler production but it might be you have a better perspective here. However, with clearing marshes and irrigating two game tiles there, a city somewhere in between Torino, Venezia and Ravenna will be a nice worker factory.

In general, strating location seems extremely nice with lots and lots of food and shields which basically substantially diminishes the advantage of argi trait of erikk.


Mining the Game was a 50-50 choice. It is not near water so I'd have to irrigate the BG near Roma first. Since that needs mining soon for the SoZ that was not realy an option. I am usually very much for irrigating them but considdering as well that Torino has some plains who will give 3 food with RR there is enough growth.
As for the Torino Location, I think very much it is best where it is now because of the wider spread of cities I want and need. Also, upon Library construction it will get two BG on a river within the city radius. To finalise decisionmaking for it's location I planned an overlap with city number 10 but the babs beat me to it.:(
This a rather large Standard map and DCP is not a good option, that is why I only wanted 3 cities South(east) of Roma-Milano. For the Hills/Mountains/Fish/Wheat to be of optimal use in the Next age I need Bologna and Genoa to be powerhouses! Size 10+ with little corruption and high shields (20+).
I agree Akots that in general a "fishing village" Is ok to have. High commerce and little need for improvements (harbor/market/lib only since production is very low no need for rax/factories). However, on this map there will be plenty of room to settle (once wars start).
In general all your advise is very logical Akots[thumbsup] but one thing I do not agree on and that is Ravenna sharing the Cow. Ravenna as placed here will have access to two Game , a fish in a lake, 4 hills, 3-5 Coastal tiles and 3 grass. I see firstly no need to move it closer to the Genoa-Cow, as sharing that will never happen because Genoa needs it very much for itself. Second, sharing the Roma-cow is a little more realistic but not outweighing the beneficial advantage the Cow has for Roma. Not to mention Moving Ravenna SW will make the area more dense again.
I guess it all has a lot to do with the bigger picture, which I did not mention in this thread at all. This is a wide map as said so that is the most important factor in placing the cities. It is something one does not always "know" when starting but as soon as I found out here I'd get at least 10 cities (wide) or 14 (close-placement) I chose 10 cities in a wider patern. It also has to do with being Commercial. I love the trait and it shows real power with large cities. All cities founded can grow past size 12!:)

Last remark, I was indeed not unhappy when I saw the Food-plethora here. The agri-one-extra-food is hardly that important. Being first in pop shows just that.

[Kingreno]

wow an update.[:o]

We are now at turn 126.



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In short, me and erikk have this agreement made eons ago about peace till the IA. He is celts me rome, we both lack horses. Erikk, however, has used his awesome GS for this:



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2005328175212_130eriksland.jpg
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And yes, it does continue further up north. He annihilated the Indians, very very weak civ, and then allied the world vs teh Arabs and grabbed their land too. The Indians are dead, while Arabia is scattered on several islands and alive for now.
In the meantime the splendid Roman empire...

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No, this is it. ahem.[hmm]

How did this happen? well...

I was way back on everything when I struck home Theology. This got me chiv and Invention and parity with the world. It alos got me mega GPT deals with Babylon and the Inca, while I got Horses from persia. This all made me go 100% Science with a Token army, only too happy with The SoZ I managed to get:

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Needless to say I am weak vs all. Good thing is though that at 100% science I outran the world and Education was mine too! This in turn was traded for GP and given away to prevent Erikk catching up. Next was Astro, we made that too, and traded for Chemistry. Erikk is clearly stearing Towards Cav.

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I do not mind. I triggered my GA against Egypt (other side of the world demanded something clearly not an option). Physics is in 4 turns and Universities are in all major cities! The AI is paying for the rest:

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This turn, science can go down to 40%, will get me towards 1k gold again and there is plenty of cash around to pay for Physics. Erikk may be going for Metallurgy and I hope the Inca get it first so I can trade it arround. I may even prevent him from getting Education!

The diplomatic screen:

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Nice to see Arabs are still alive, their culture is great so perhaps flipping is a danger for Erikk. This would mean he needs recapturetroops ready in the far North.[evil]
And this is where my Evil plan emerges: I plan to go Industrial way before Erikk expects. I will then land 10-15 Knights (or cav) in his core and strike his now empty cities that are near my border! I don't have any other options since Babylon and Persia are paying me gold and horses...let's just hope he does not pull back in time and is building Universities in his core.
I still have 14 turns of GA to go, we need Magnetism, Banking, ToG and Metalurgy for the IA, and miltrad as well.
the f11:

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This tiny Empire has rather large balls so it seems.[coool]

[Beam]

So when and how are the Romans going to break out of their pocket?

[Kingreno]

They just did that Beam.[fdevil]

What was it in civ2? "Hawk Party derails!" Or something like that.

I traded Magnetism on Monopoly around and got, besides some cash, the last tech of the MA I needed, Banking. This got me to the next age, with Babylon and Persia. The babs got Nationalism, Persia SP. I set research on Medicine (estimate 8 turns).

Now this means Erikk lacks Banking, Physics, Magnetism and ToG. He may however get Miltrad next turn to equal things out again. That is of no concern to me though. I declared war immediately and Erikk should be a bit angry. WE agreed peace till the IA though, so I broke no treaty.

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There, done.
Now we strike.


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Precious Bari. Once flipped in my Anarchy a single Roman citizen remains. Very happy to be liberated from these half-naked monsters.


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Three cities were taken in this corrupted land, 4 are now under direct Roman siege.
Of course a hawk party like this is sometimes planned far ahead. The same turn 12 units land in Erikk's core.[evil]

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I can strike 3 cities from here. I am clueless whether he can strike me with his Knights/cav but if he cannot he may lose 1 or even 2. I see no way he can defend all.

My lands in the meantime keep making Knights! This core is quite productive, though no Domestic horses (import Persia) and No SP at all make it hard.

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Very curious as to what will happen from here, I'll leave you with the redecorated minimap:

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[goodjob]

[Lt. Killer M]

wow!


great to see my map is giving you fun ;)

[Pastorius]

Some of the AI are hugeish. Are mass-MAing allowed? If so, I would gang up on you if I was him [hmm]

[Rik Meleet]

Are these cities empty or have you "show units over city" disabled ?
I hope for you these cities are empty, I hope for ErikK the units don't show.

[Darkness]

I think the cities are empty, 'cause Napoli shows a Med Inf and Milano shows a Legion in the last picture.
I think Erikk got caught with his pants down.... [eek]

[Kingreno]

I have no "map tricks" like Units over cities disabled on (had to check what it was first...). Roma and others are indeed emtpy. Why would I need units there?

[Kingreno]

next turn!



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[:o]

Erikk abandonned 4 cities!

And...

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He even abandonned a core city, Camuludonum, while Gergovia shows a vet Knight. I guess he had little choice as the capture of Camuludonum would have allowed me access to Alesia, his second city. An email from him confirmed that "with his pants down" is indeed the right expression.:D

I take my time for this turn as I need to decide. If I regroup I can master a formidable attack on his eastern flank, yet that would also mean getting the troops in Erikks core out. I could sail further with them creating confusion with erikk. Another option would be a chaotic, and risky, all out attack on him. I chose tyhe latter.

I attack Gergovia with all 4 units on the Mountain, 1 knight and 3 Anciant Cavalry. There were two Knights in teh city and I won, odds favored me a 60-40 so it sounds fair:


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Nice sideeffect is that Erikk now has lost his only source of Silks! We may even see some riots next turn.[fdevil]

The other 8 units went straight for Alesia, all in the open.

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While this stack of Knights (4) and AC (4) is extremely vulnerable to Erikks attack he has a small problem at the frontdoor as well...


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9 units ready to engage here (7 Knights, 2 AC). This group too is not defended in any way and could suffer heavy losses, I however see no way that Erikk can attack both groups.

The 3 captured cities were not abandonned so they may flip. there are 3 knights standing by to retake:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200548121112_139westrenoland.jpg
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so far so good.

EDIT: confusing Spellingmistake.

[grs]

Wow, excellent progress [goodjob], Erikk must be really furious!

[akots]

Rome is good, me likes Rome... [estwing] [hammer]

[Kingreno]

few turns later...

My stack in Erikk's core suffered losses and only 3 brave units made it to the ships. 5 were lost. In the East battles were a bit better but in the end we didi not succeed in capturing a city. I did manage to pillage a bit including Erikk's wines. In the meantime level 1 Warweariness acctivated and that is not good. I have just 5 luxes and keeping it managable is hard.
As I get turn 143 Erikk send me a nice surprise, well 2 actually; first he entered the Industrial age with Mil Trad. Bleh. Second he has a SoD nearing my lands from the west:


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It has: 1 Elite Knight, 3 cav and 10 GS (one elite, most vet)

I decide that I need to eliminate this stack, most certainly the Cav, to have a chance. This is the battle report. In dutch, sorry,

verslaat = I won
verliest = I lost

V Knight verslaat E Knight, promo, (3/5)
V Knight verliest van v Cav (2/4)
V Knight verliest van E GS (3/5)
V Knight verslaat r Cav, promo, (2/5)
V Knight verslaat r cav (3/4)
V Knight verslaat v GS (1/4)
V Knight verslaat v GS (1/4)
V Knight verslaat v GS (3/4)
V Knight verslaat v GS , promo (4/5)
V Knight verslaat v GS , promo (3/5)
V Knight verslaat v GS (2/4)
V Knight verliest van r GS (3/3)
V Knight verliest van r GS , promo (2/4)
V Knight verslaat r GS (3/4)
E Knight verslaat r GS (3/5), LEADER
r AC verliest van (3/5) GS, (2/5)
V MedInf verslaat (2/4) cav, (1/4)
V Medinf brengt GS (2/4) naar (1/4), de GS retreat.
V AC (4/5) verslaat E GS (2/5), (3/5).

I lose 5 units against his 13 and one retreat! [charge]

Of course this is nice as well:

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My forces are stranded on that mountain and I hope Erikk has not too many units in the area, the pillaging I did a few turns ago comes in very handy as I tacticly removed all easy access roads. To get to my stack he'll need to get his cav in the open.

Also, the brave few who survived the raid on his core returned.



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Only one AC and 2 Knights here but they can reach 2 cities.

stay tuned.

[Banzai]

Great spoiler!!
What are you going to do with the leader?

[Kingreno]

The Leader was turned into an army of Knights.

It is a time of good and bad.

First the bad things.

My landings near and in Erikk core are over. He destroyed my ships and eliminated all Knights and AC that landed there. There is very little hope of ever again using this tactic as well as I cannot build Frigates. Basicly the sea is his.
Also, I have now also lost my horses. So my only strategic recourse is Iron. I could trade for horses with Persia but it is very expensive ATM. I must wait several turns before my next tech comes in to be able to trade it at a decent prize.
Erikk, OTOH, has Cav. This does not bode well for us as it is a great unit to have and a nightmare to miss. Rome is now forced to defend itself!

However. There were also good things:

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Erikk still has no Steampower! Yeah, still! I have traded very well and after bagging a Medicine Monopoly I got SP, Democracy (sigh) and a load of gold. I have had SP for over 8 turns now and Erikk has not researched it yet. I am clueless what he is researching. Persia has a Mono on Nationalism, while all AI share my SP/Med/demo.
This also means that Coal is available and we have ONE resource!!!:D.


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This means I do not have to surrender! I set a lot of cities to workerporduction and RR is being laid everywhere at a very decent speed. Erikk's naval force is far less threathning now.

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Next turn a Roma-Eboracum express can deliver any unit to the front and back in no-time.[cool]
As can be seen the lack of horses/SP made me decide to build Pikemen and Trebuchets only. These are produced at terrific rates: Roma has 30 spt, while 7 other cities manage 15-20 spt. 3 cities will soon go to 30 spt as well. These units may not be a very tough opponent for cav but in numbers, backed by Trebs and behind walls they can and will do their damage. Of course, they also upgrade to Infantry/Arty!

That is the next rather good thing:

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Only a few turns form electricity, Rep Parts is close. Also ToE is a very attractive option. I am still in doubt where to go next. If I get Elec before Erikk gets SP/Nat I will sell it to Persia for Nationalism, allowing at least rifles. If not, I will keep elec and go for Rep Parts first. The trouble there is that I will likely not have rubber (hope to trade for it then).
If I get Infantry soon the game should basicly be over for Erikk, as I will simply charge my Inf and pillage his empire.

This is what his lands loo like. Please keep an eye on the newly found cities in his core, still very small. The rest of his empire is massive though...

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The Border:

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The army with 2 Line-of-sight keeps an eye every turn on the activities here. It heads back home every turn after this scouting.
My guess is that Lundum had a dozen cav and perhaps 5 Muskets. There may be some GS as well but unlikely, and unimportant. Eboracum has 6 Elite Knights, 8 vet Knights, 8 vet Pikes, 5 Trebs, 1 Elite Legionaire, 2 vet MI and the army of Knights. Every turn roughly 3 pikes and 2 trebs join this party.
The surrounding area also has 10 units or so. There are also 10 units in the core, performing borderprotection with Persia and Babylon.
The Romans have the following stats to back them up:

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Very happy with this.

last the MM:



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[bed_head7]

I am currently making my way through all of your spoilers, and I just wanted to say that I have enjoyed reading them very much and look forward to reading the rest!