Future of the Ladder?

[Ginger_Ale]

It seems the ladder is sort of...nonexsistant these days. What are the future plans for this? Continue it or not? Just curious.

[Socrates]

Good question. Though I don't find it important to find a solution to something that didn't receive much attention last year, I hope we can state on this by the time Civ4 is out (like many other things, I'd like Civ4 to refresh everything and everyone).

My opinion is that I now personally don't care about CDZ's ladder. I find it a bit odd because you get points based on your current position (like in chess tourneys), but PBEMs take months to complete, so there is a flaw here that I've already pointed out to ProPain. Speaking of him, he told me that the ladder wasn't going to receive any further attention, at least in the near future, but that was months ago...

As for me, I'm keeping track of my PBEMs in my forum, and that's much better like this. I guess we play too few games to have a real exciting ladder, and so that suits online gaming much, much more.

If we come to a very simple system where you can easily look at all games that were played in one place, without the scoring stuff, just wins and losses, then I'm for it. My wish is just to keep track, not to evaluate how I play.

[akots]

It would be of interest to see how the ladder looks with all the updates. But not more than that. Guess, the impact of the Skyfish story on these issues is still alive, fresh, and kicking. [sad]

[digger760]

I had promised ProPain i would fix it by Christmas...but the SQL queries are kind of complex and I do not have the concerntration capacity these days (too tired) to fix it with SQL like i hoped. I am therefore exporting the tables to text and they will be fixed by good ole C++ and re-imported back in. I hope to have them upto date in the next couple of weeks, then PP just has to upload the database back in :)

[Kingreno]

I'd like to see some kind of tournament on CDZ. The ladder, as Akots pointed out, has lost a lot of its glory since the incident. What could be done is to have some sort of cup, where players play eachother within a certain timeframe (2 months?) and the winner going to the next round for the semi's, while the loser will play some other loser to determine places (e.g.) 5 to 8. This works with other even numbers as well, though 8 or 16 is best. There are ways to work around the difficulties like players not being able to play their turns ect. Also, CDZ is relaxed enough not to make it too important. :)
So anyone up for (something like) this?

[Socrates]

Some here are eager to compete ! ;) Why not ? Though CDZ will always be something else than just a ladder site (despite its initial purpose, or so I think it was).

I'd certainly take part in such a thing, Kingreno, if it wasn't for what I pointed out : a tourney is very difficult to set up for PBEMs. They take a lot of time, people go on holiday, lose Internet connection for a while, have RL problems, etc... A tourney would take a lot of time to end, so we would need to set up a time limit for games or number of turns per week. Quite tricky, when you know that many players here like to play without time restrictions. [mischief]

Something else : Civ4 will kick in in less than one year. Maybe we should think of a really solid project like this for Civ4, for 2006 ? The good thing is that everyone will be newbies again (not entirely, but in a way, yes), whereas now we already know the strong players and the very strong players (yes, CDZ only has strong players at least :D ). I'd fear to play guys like Kemal, Markstar or akots in the 1st round... [cry]

A good idea would be to propose many different projects of all kinds, to eventually pick up the best one. But the ladder as it is isn't satisfactory for me.

[anarres]

digger - I am a database programmer, amongst other things! Please contact me and I can write your SQL in seconds for you. :)

[Beam]

I think the ladder must have been one of the main attractions for people to join CDZ when it started but the past months very well have shown that CDZ is alive and kicking without a ladder.

We started to organize competitions like the GOTM and the Tournament on CFC when Civ3 still was multiplayer and it really was the only way to compete with other players. With multiplayer PBEM there is actual and much more interactive competition between human players. Although not driven by hard numbers most of us pretty well know how skilled the frequent players are.

Personally I play for the fun and PBEM gives me enough satisfaction for competitive needs. I also think that kind of competition is mucho better than the somewhat artificial rank in a ladder.

My 2 cents.

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

when Civ3 still was single player


I really don't care about being in/on the ladder, though I think it's a nice addition. I like that my sparse games are on it.

[digger760]

I know SQL and i dont think it is that easy...maybe i made it to complicated in the first place. How do i contact you. your never on MSN these days.

[anarres]

Contact me on my CDZ email. I may not be on msm all the time but I am usually near my email and I always answer it. :)

SQL is like any code language, in that you can build it up bit by bit.

[Markstar]

I wish I could have played more ladder games but I tried (with limited success) to focus on my university.

But now my girlfriend is leaving me for six months (to work in Australia) which should give me a decent amount of free time so I plan on picking up Civ again (I have yet to start my first C3C single player game).

I love the ladder and I hope there will always be people willing to play because once I'm done with my studies and in a job where I can play computer during work (like not so few of the best Civ players seem to be able to) I would love to get into PBEMs again.

[akots]

There might be sort of short games for the cup like scenarios (WWII for example). Or winner can be determined by turn 150 (good timing for 2 months) just by having higher score. Or it can be a tiny Pangea no-AI 1x1 game which should normally end around turn 150 as well but if started with 2-3 settlers can end substantially earilier.

IMO, ladder or cup is not something really important and the only thing to keep CDZ functional and live. It is Ok without it. But it is of more interest to play PBEM games with some sort of competition. It just adds spice to the game (unless it is a match between Beam and Erikk). Same like playing GOTM or HOF game since I cannot make myself just sit and play a single-player game (unless it is some beautiful and exciting mod like TAM or Kingreno's). Still would be nice to have a few tested maps for Kingreno's mod suitable for a Deity game.

Edited: Actually, I would say either update the ladder at least on a 3-month-based intervals or remove it completely. (Suddenly remembers abour the recently neglected chess forum and rushes to update it as well).

[Socrates]

Right akots, thanks to propose some stuff. I'm answering you now...

Conquests for PBEMS ? As you once said, they're not that good for PBEM on the whole, they could get boring to play again and again, and they're buggier than normal games (based on RoR for me).

Games ending by score ? No way. Well, you won't have me playing in a tourney game with civ score as the deciding factor. How frustrating it can be to try to catch up in score for weeks, and you eventually see the other guy just winning ahead of you, just because he founded a few more cities or connected one more lux...

Tiny Pangea 1v1 games could be much interesting, as they would be played quickly, and it would be better to set up a good map like this, since there would be less tiles to draw. The only drawback would be the civ-time played : players would rarely see the Middle Ages... But you can't win on everything.

Agree on chess forum to resume. :D We should think of it together, you know where to find me.

Any other suggestion for such a competition ? Or any deeper thought on akots's ones ?

[Shabbaman]

The ladder seems to be down atm. Propain?

[ProPain]

Well the site seems to work, but the actual ladder is dead as a doornail atm.

If people are interested in reviving it that's ok with me but I really don't have the time to keep it up-to-date so someone else should take over that task. Of course I'm willing to help getting it actualised and to explain how everything works

Any volunteers?

[Shabbaman]

No: if I click a link to, for example, player ladder or civ ranking I get an "internal server error". So not only the ladder is dead, but the site as well.