View Full Version : Second Hungry Old Beast - Spoiler
I referred to Civ4 as an old beast on the other site, but named the find-opponent-thread "Hungry for more", so in order not to confuse, this is both.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob3960bc.png
The lake can already give me three commerce, because of my adorable financial trait. But I'm gonna do the early gamble and build a worker first to get those sheep ASAP.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob2880bc.png
I met Stapel, who is obviously in the east, and we agree to a peace deal until Christ is born, which can be cancelled ten turns in advance.
My worker-first gamble paid off and I will soon have a max sized capital. After the warrior I will start building the Pyramids until it hits size five, then build a settler. Once the settler is done, I'll continue building the Pyramids. Only a civ with the industrious trait can prevent me from getting that.
Decided to build another worker when Groningen got to six pop and the corn was irrigated. Pyramids will continue after that.
Meanwhile I met socralynnek in the north:
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1880bc1.png
The map is funny. I have a land strip towards the north. There's only room for 1.5 cities to the west and I'm not too sure how far I can expand to the east. I don't want to squash Stapel too much, otherwise he'll might feel forced to cancel our peace treaty.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1880bc2.png
We playing rather rapidly with about 1.5 - 2 turns per day. This time the pyramids are mine. https://straland.com/images/smilies/grin.gif
In the same turn I discovered iron working, which I was anxiously awaiting, because there is no copper as far as I have discovered, which admittedly isn't much. And thank god, it's right in my backyard! https://straland.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1320bc1.png
My room for expansion is limited, but there is more to discover in the north. Socralynnek - I like starting a sentence with his name, because then I have an excuse to spell his name properly, that is, with a capital S - is somewhere north. I met a workboat of his there.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1320bc2.png
Meanwhile I haven't talked with Stapel, nor have I seen him. He's researching sailing is not building up units. Since he is my only neighbour, I only have three warriors. Now I'm building my first archer, which I'll need against the barbarians; shouldn't take long before they arrive.
While I'm allowed to develop unchallenged, ProPain and Killer are in a very early war, of course initiated by Killer (as ProPain told me). But you can see the result: Killer is rock bottom in score.
Killer got eliminated on new year's eve, the poor bloke. According him his starting position left him no choice but to try an early war, but that backfired.
Now back to my realm, which is doing quite amazingly, if I may say so myself. I built the pyramids before I could really put it to use. But thanks to that, I got a great engineer exactly on the same turn as literature was invented. The earlier I have the great library, the earlier I get +12 science per turn, so there was little contemplation required on how to use that great engineer. Besides, with marble in my territory I have a good shot as the mausoleum of Mausollos as well, so it might be good to postpone golden ages until then.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob425bc1.png
Meanwhile Beorn deployed two axemen next to Phrygian, the barbarian city in the north. He asked for open borders earlier, which I refused, because he was nowhere in sight yet. He understood, then a few turns later he offered open borders again. I assumed I must've been very close to him, so I accepted. But no, still no sight of Beorn's land. [rant] I'll avoid contact with him and take Phrygian by force by surprise if he keeps it. Although it probably won't be much of a surprise.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob425bc2.png
The shape of the continent is funny. :) I can also see some coast west of Phrygian, so if I build a city on the tip, I should be able to hop to the next island or continent without needing astronomy.
It's getting interesting already! Beorn is bringing more axemen to Phrygian. He clearly wants to spike my development wheel and cause as much havoc as possible. I switched my research to construction, so I can build catapults. In ten turns I can connect the horses southeast of Utrecht and will make sure the road is ready done by then. In the mean time I'll continue building my own axemen in Groningen and Amsterdam.
Stapel and I agreed to another extention of our peace deal: peace at least until 500 AD and a ten turn advance notice if one of us wants to have war after that.
I've found Beorn's borders, by the way. He's right behind socralynnek, which should come as no surprise.
Fuck, Beorn declared war on me. He invaded with four axemen in the north and one from the east.
Now I need to connect my iron in the west ASAP.
Defense beats offense.
Offense beats development.
Development beats defense.
That's the triangle that exists in many strategy games and civilization is no exception. I've born those words of wisdom in mind ever since a friend and game reviewer uttered them to me. Beorn has been attacking me and I was defending. That meant I had the upper hand. Now he's driven out.
First I killed his axemen in the west, while he parked the four axemen on the forest hill west of my northern iron source after pillaging it. Being fortified for five turns, that amounted to 10.5 hitpoints (or 13 if I'd attack with melee units). But I weakened them with two catapults and then destroyed them with three chariots - Beorn mentioned in the WhatsApp group chat that there is only one source of horses on the whole continent, which I didn't know yet - and one axemen. But I was fortunate, I should admit. Two battles had about 66% chance of success and the other two about 50%. That meant I had 11% chance of no unit loss. I had enough spare units to finish the job, but now I'm standing solid.
However, while this battle is won, the war isn't over. I invented metal casting in the mean time, so now I'm rushing some trireme's to make sure he cannot make landfall anymore.
Beorn built the temple of Solomon and his economy is not so far off from mine. I now dare to start building the mausoleum of Maussollos and will build the national epic straight after. The other cities, stained and tormented by slavery, will have to do the rest of the job. In six turns I'll probably get my second great scientist, which should give me another 15.75 science output extra; my total is about 70 now. In case of another great leader, I'll use it for my first golden age as soon as the mausoleum is completed.
Lt. Killer M
18-01-2020, 18:52
You have no idea how I envy you the starting lands.
Stapel told me that he and Beorn will be at war soon. Allegedly Beorn demanded something for maintaining the peace and Stapel refused out of principle. (I would too.) I suspect that Beorn has no more land left to expand to anymore.
As a consequence, Beorn retreated all his troops from that northern tip of my continent. I am therefore planning an attack plan on Condate (formerly Phrygian), because that city has been bugging the hell out of me ever since Beorn took it. Did we actually make an agreement not to raze cities, or didn't we? [scratch]
On the other hand, Beorn will most likely win a lot of ground from Stapel. The most logical thing for me to do, is to attack Stapel from the other side. But I don't want to! I wanna blast Beorn to smithereens. Socralynnek is collateral damage. They're probably in a strong alliance anyway and he'll be pissed once I've taken over Condate. So I'm considering to send troops westwards towards Beorn as well.
Another interesting thing is: Beorn has been investing in espionage into my realm...a lot! Twice already I devoted all my income in a turn to espionage into his realm, just to make sure I can still see his demographics. It's 600 vs 250 points now, or something like that. I assume he can see what I'm researching, so that's something to consider. Knowledge is very important in this game, and he might intend to pull the same trick as I did in the previous game: using spies to change my government from representation to whatever he has. But in any case, I still consider it a waste and would rather spend it on research instead anyway.
I did build the great wall actually for the sole purpose of getting a great spy, but I only got one great engineer (due to the pyramids) and since then two great scientists. Well, at least the great wall provided me an early great general, so at least I got something out of it.
Anyway, the situation as of today:
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob375ad2.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob375ad1.png
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob375ad3.png
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob375ad4.png
I made socralynnek a deal he couldn't refuse. Either he'd gift Condate in exchange for 100 gold, or I'd conquer Condate and terrorize the Khmer seas with my triremes until he pays up. He accepted, so no bloodshed. He also wanted a peace deal of at least 30 turns. Even better! :D
Stapel granted me permission to capture his cities once Beorn broke through. A spiteful act, but one that I couldn't refuse.
Furthermore, the maussolleum of Mausollos is completed and I immediately used my great artist for a prolonged golden age. So now my income and production skyrocketed, as you can see here. My military production is up and running again, and I discovered civil service allowing me to train macemen, so things are looking good. :) Though I'm still worried about Beorn's huge espionage investment. I realise he can most likely see all my cities.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob700ad1.png
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob700ad2.png
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob700ad3.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob700ad4.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob700ad5.png
What's interesting is that Beorn's power took quite a dent, but Stapelburg is still not taken. A failed assault? Or did Stapel attack with all he had left?
Stapel is dead. Beorn took his last city, the capital of Stapelburg.
Subsequently I attacked his stack with my macemen and crossbowmen...and failed, miserably. I can't call it any different than a bad roll of the dice, because his stack should've been decimated. However, I lost five units (should've been two or three, apart from the catapults) and then he destroyed the rest. Now I have nothing left and need to rush more units.
On top of that, socralynnek is rush building a lot, as can be seen from CivStats. I just spotted two triremes and two galleys. They'll attack me from both sides.
I'm doomed. I'm gonna lose. Again. I'll never ever win a pitboss, and this was my biggest and probably last chance. All gone because of a failed attack. :( And perhaps bad diplomacy (with socralynnek).
Kingreno
27-02-2020, 12:51
Keep the chin up, Matrix. And great spoiler!
Heh, thanks! I squeezed out military units as much as I could, whipping my population to smithereens.
Now Beorn's stack is in retreat. This turn I had a decision to make: do I attack his stack, let it go, or...stand right next to it?!
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1090ad1.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1090ad2.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1090ad3.png
Thing is, our stacks are of equal size, but he's on a forest. My catapults would not compensate enough for that defense bonus - they would have to do more than 1/3 damage of all units' strength to undo the 50% bonus - The same goes for him. But if I move next him, then I'm also on a forest. But now he cannot retreat, because then he's on plains instead of forest. As a result, I force him to stay there. And there are more troops coming.
Meanwhile I got caravels! So one 'unmanned' ship is going for a world tour, while the other will drop off an explorer and then head south to meet up with our infamous stranger [B]BrunchTime, whose borders became visible due to the +2 visibility upon discovering optics.
Socralynnek and I have been talking. He tries to make me believe that he's unsure which side to take. But now I saw him moving in all his five or six triremes plus two galleys in the habour of Rajavihara. My caravels needs two turns of rest in the Hague to fully recover from the successful sinking of Beorn's fleet (three triremes and a galley; no losses).
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1090ad4.png
Beorn is only two turns away from gunpowder! [eek] Hey, I'm the one with the great library. He went to get paper and education already, while I just started on feudalism and will go towards gunpowder from there. Beorn actually stole engineering from me a couple of turns ago. [slanteye]
The first spy has reached Aztec land and started to explore Beorn's realm.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1090ad5.png
Just when socralynnek was about to declare war on me, the apostolic palace allowed me to enforce peace for ten turns. https://straland.com/images/smilies/LOL.gif I might pull that same trick again soon, although I think there will be re-elections first, so that might take a while. Would be handy to know what the time schedule of the apostolic palace is: when are elections and proposals due?
Anyway, let's start with my realm:
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1240ad1.png
I'm paying a serious price for the huge army that I have. But I need it if I want to have at least a chance of survival, which is already slim at best. Because I have two fronts. Socralynnek dropped his army in the north and Beorn is about to invade me from the southeast.
I tried to convince socralynnek to attack Beorn instead by offering 40 gpt and while I attack him from the southeast. He respectfully declined.
I tried to convince Beorn to call off his attack by telling him I would attack him and let socralynnek do his business. Because seriously, I cannot fight two fronts at the same time. I either split up my army and lose on both fronts, or choose who to attack. Since Beorn has been pestering me almost from the start and sold the barbarian city that he conquered north of me to socralynnek, which was doomed to fall into my hands afterwards, I have a lot more empathy for socralynnek in this game. Beorn understood, but tried to convince me that if I would trade world maps with him, he could get another target and therefore I would be out of the picture. I didn't buy that bullshit. But I didn't convince him either.
We did agree to move our stacks northwards. He went halfway, I went all the way. The idea was that we're far away enough, the incentive to attack would be lower. But he was just playing with me. Now we are about to see how much that worked out.
So here is the situation. Every turn counts at this moment, so it's important to know that me and Beorn have played our turn and socralynnek has not.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1240ad2.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1240ad3.png
So now that my army is upstairs anyway, my plan is to destroy every unit socralynnek has deployed there, discouraging him to attack further, and then get the hell out of dodge. Beorn will probably have conquered Constantinopel by the time I'm back, but no matter the situation then, I'll be able to attack him with his pants down because of the borders. I'm building catapults only, so that the macemen can do the rest after that.
And thus I might be able fight them both off. In the worst case scenario, socralynnek will deploy the other units he has anyway and my attack on Beorn will go in vain. But at least I think I optimised my chances.
I will be the first to circumnavigate the globe, though I doubt that will ever be of use.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1240ad4.png
Meanwhile the effect of great library seems to be wearing off. I've done the very bad mistake of not going for education as soon as I could. As soon as I have that, I will rush build enough universities to build the Oxford University in Groningen as fast as possible. That should get me back on track.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1240ad5.png
Nonetheless, I don't understand how socralynnek and Beorn have been able to research faster than I do. Beorn is working on chemistry already! I've had more GPT than them almost every turn.
Beorn's stack
1 musketman
10 war elephants
7 macemen
8 catapults
5 trebuchets
Socralynnek's stack is split up. You can see in the screenshot what he deployed already. In addition he has waiting on the little island between us:
3 ballista elephants
2 macemen
4 crossbowmen
2 catapults
My stack
15 macemen
2 pikemen
3 crossbowmen
7 catapults
First socralynnek deployed his units just one tile out of reach and now he fully retreated. He must have a spy there, otherwise he wouldn't know my units were there at all. I think they are actively coordinating their attack.
I'm giving up and will give way to socralynnek. All my forces are going to Beorn now. Again, I cannot fight them both and so I'm forced to choose and I prefer socralynnek to win. Beorn already won last time and he's been a pain in the ass throughout this game.
The biggest armies the world has ever seen.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1290ad.png
Lt. Killer M
15-03-2020, 20:20
Ouch, what is in that stack?
See this post (http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162241&postcount=18), except that I have about twelve catapults now and he lost a some when attacking Constantinopel.
Lt. Killer M
18-03-2020, 10:41
See this post (http://www.civduelzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162241&postcount=18), except that I have about twelve catapults now and he lost a some when attacking Constantinopel.
woah..... well, odds getting better at the cost of terrain.
Beorn has cannons.
That's it.
Lt. Killer M
29-03-2020, 19:03
OUCH!
If I survive far enough, I ALWAYS beeline for them. They are a game changer
It looks like socralynnek and Beorn agreed that Beorn will get Strastad, because he gave Utrecht to socralynnek three turns ago. The rest might as well quit playing then.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1555ad1.png
They have a tough nut to crack though. https://straland.com/images/smilies/floppa.gif
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1555ad2.png https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1555ad3.png
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1560ad.png
Aww, I'm flattered! https://straland.com/images/smilies/love.gif If only I hadn't lost so many cities already...
This was actually the reason I sent two missionaries out. :rolleyes: Was funny enough to get a vote possible.
Last picture before I die.
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sob1610ad.png
Kingreno
14-04-2020, 14:30
It was nice to read your spoiler Matrix.
Ha! [^]
https://straland.com/images/cdz/sobsolo.png
Now back to my realm, which is doing quite amazingly, if I may say so myself. I built the pyramids before I could really put it to use. But thanks to that, I got a great engineer exactly on the same turn as literature was invented. The earlier I have the great library, the earlier I get +12 science per turn, so there was little contemplation required on how to use that great engineer.
That was probably the largest most fateful event of the game. If you had gotten a scientist instead, maybe someone else (PP, Brunch or myself) could have managed to get GLib first, so that others would have been serious contenders to the development leaderboard. That would have changed everything.
Assuming I had gotten it, I'd still be 2nd to you (if that), but maybe close enough not to feel threatened into attacking. Stapel would've been in my sights.
If PP had gotten it, we'd have had a common target and I would've pushed for cooperation with you.
If Brunch had gotten it, he would have had the best economy, fastest astro, and maybe a chance at keeping up with extra islands. His production was pretty dismal, so idk.
Meanwhile Beorn deployed two axemen next to Phrygian, the barbarian city in the north. He asked for open borders earlier, which I refused, because he was nowhere in sight yet. He understood, then a few turns later he offered open borders again. I assumed I must've been very close to him, so I accepted. But no, still no sight of Beorn's land. [rant] I'll avoid contact with him and take Phrygian by force by surprise if he keeps it. Although it probably won't be much of a surprise.
That does look bad from your perspective, but the offer was genuine at the time. I never regret good will but ... y'know ... offense beats development so it had to turn sour ASAP or I was out ;)
Stapel told me that he and Beorn will be at war soon. Allegedly Beorn demanded something for maintaining the peace and Stapel refused out of principle. (I would too.) I suspect that Beorn has no more land left to expand to anymore.
Seeing as Pyramids+GLib was problematic, around 400BC I offered Stapel and ynnek to triple-team Groningen, split the territory favorably for them, one of them gets wonder-city. Stapel kindof agreed in principle but also wanted to wait forever, keep his 500AD peace with you and meanwhile move his troops North in case he could take some of ynnek's lands while he was away. I pressed him to join us, and the rest is history.
Another interesting thing is: Beorn has been investing in espionage into my realm...a lot! Twice already I devoted all my income in a turn to espionage into his realm, just to make sure I can still see his demographics. It's 600 vs 250 points now, or something like that. I assume he can see what I'm researching, so that's something to consider. Knowledge is very important in this game, and he might intend to pull the same trick as I did in the previous game: using spies to change my government from representation to whatever he has. But in any case, I still consider it a waste and would rather spend it on research instead anyway.
100% agreed that it's a waste to spend on espionage, but my mass-slavery strategy revolved around sacrificial altars, so I had a TON of spy points. Many spies tried to flip you out of representation only to get captured right out. Eventually, I got one to stick and it took so long, I had so much espionage stacked up, that he grabbed engineering.
Nonetheless, I don't understand how socralynnek and Beorn have been able to research faster than I do. Beorn is working on chemistry already! I've had more GPT than them almost every turn.
Demographics GNP lies to us. It counts culture as well. So with more wonders and creative +2 in every city, the count was falsified.
It took a while to get started with dry cottages and, eventually, Stapel's lands. That might also have skewed your perception of my economy: it was laughable early on with pure cottages, and then it went up very suddenly with towns, universities and printing press. Also, I enjoyed a lot more turns of 100% science thanks to wonder fail gold, another way to compensate for a dismal start.
So my GNP was a lot closer to my science output: less % to taxes, less points counted from culture.
I guess I felt too insecure with my chances, starting with the worst economy after Killer's, at least before the university boom. I didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, or a time where my economy could rival yours. Come to think of it, I should have just gone swinging for Stapel's lands right away at axe+cata and built myself up like that, then met your development with my own in annexed territories. That would also have been a much different game.
I didn't realise you'd have sacrificial altars so much earlier than we had courthouses, but that explains. :) And I understand that I was an obvious target for those espionage points.
"University boom"? Are universities really that important? A city going from 125% science output to 150% science output surely cannot make that much difference, can it?
For sure, I didn't think it through though, because I should've gone for education a lot earlier and build Oxford University in Groningen ASAP. That was perhaps one of my biggest mistakes, along with not staying friends with socralynnek.
Universities isn't that big indeed, but Oxford is if you have a highly specialized city. So are the bonuses for printing press, free religion and free speech. All of that together makes it a big boom.
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