multi-human PBEM using TAM mod [Archive]

Socrates

19-12-2004, 23:57

I'm about to start a PBEM with Paalikles using the TAM mod (Thamis's Ancient Mediterranean). It seems some people are interested to play in a game with more than 2 players, so I'm opening this thread to see if the interest is actually there. Here are some useful links to get you started :
- TAM's thread at CFC, see 1st post : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=23420
- TAM's forum at CDG : http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/index.php?h=1&pf=21
- Watorrey's site about TAM : http://civ3.watorrey.net/pages/tam.html
- Justus II's reference site about TAM : http://joe-s.home.insightbb.com/ancient_med.htm

We'd need to make sure that everyone has the exactly same version. At the moment the latest version is 2.5j. I'd require MSN addresses that I miss.

I'm away from December 25 in the evening to January 2 in the morning. If we could use the week before to set up the game, so as it starts in early Januray, that'd be cool.

ERIKK

20-12-2004, 00:03

i am interested, i will read the threads tomorrow to get a full picture of the mod

grs

20-12-2004, 14:26

I am interested, but I will have to read more too.

Socrates

21-12-2004, 18:54

I know Justus II is interested, but I haven't heard of him here yet. That would make a game with 4 people, maybe a bit low on such a large Mediterranean map ? Or would we play on a random map (less fun ?) ?

Any other people interested in a game about those who invented the concept of Civilization ? It's not about panzers or knights here, but about going back to the roots of glorious empires. [thumbsup]

ERIKK

21-12-2004, 18:56

I rather have a Standard map with like 4 humans and 4 Demigod AI's for instance. As you can only have 8 players - a large map is too big. It would make the game boring.

Justus II

21-12-2004, 23:47

Yes, I am interested, sorry didn't notice this thread opened. The Large Mediterranean map is probably too big for PBEM, I'd think the Fertile Crescent map would be best. It's still historical, basically from Greece-Egypt-Persia-Arabia. The map is 100x100, but a good chunk is unsettleable desert, so it should play a little smaller. I will take a look at it (haven't worked with that map in a while) and list the civs, with some ideas as to which would be better human vs. AI. It at least keeps the historical perspective.

The Mod is very well done, I worked with Watorrey to fix some bugs and improve the documentation. It's not necesarrily "balanced", historically powerful civs tend to have more advantages than weaker ones, but I will also try to summarize some of the strengths and weaknesses of each. (I'd also be happy to play a 'weaker' civ since I have more knowledge of the mod).

Justus II

22-12-2004, 00:32

OK, here's a blow-up of the mini-map from the Fertile Crescent map, with all civs' starting locations marked.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/2004122202459_FertCrescentStart.jpg
46.81KB

We would have to narrow it down to 8 civs, then designate which would be human. My first guess on playable civs:

Egypt
Mycenea/Minoans (one or the other)
Lydia/Troy (again, pick one)
Hittites
Israel/Phoenica (pick one)
Assyria
Babylon
Media/Persia (pick one)

This also eliminates Kolchis and Nubia, who are furthest from the action. This gives a decent spread, without too much crowding. Then we'd have to allocate which are human or which are AI.

Some things to consider: TAM has VERY tough barbs, the starting barbs are 4/2/1 units, with def. bombard. (Starting warriors are 2/2/1 by comparison). Some civs start with barbs in the initial city radius, we may want to move those once we decide on playable civs. We could replace them with more barbs near the locations of the eliminated civs, if we wish.

Also, I updated the TAM Stats pages at my website (linked in Krys' post above), they are reference sheets for all civs/buildings/units etc. for the mod. Let me know if you have any questions. :)

Socrates

22-12-2004, 00:53

quote:Originally posted by Justus II

Let me know if you have any questions. :)

Why are barbs so strong ??? [cry] With warriors being 2/2/1 and barbs 4/2/1, the best is to attack them, but they'd have defense advantages and they also have a strong firing shot when grouped together ! :( What's the best strategy ? (Don't tell me about building lots of archers, the expansion phase is already too slow... or is it worthy with the capital palace acting as a barracks ?)

About this map : Is it REALLY better than the large Mediterranean one ? Was anything balanced back from the Med map to this map ? We're playing the Med map with Paali ; is it that bad an idea to play as 8 civs on the Med map ?

Justus II

22-12-2004, 01:03

Barbs: Yes, the best strategy is generally play conservative at first, guard your workers and cities, and build plenty of warriors/archers until you can send some mini-stacks out to clear the barbs away. The palace barracks ability is critical, remember 'normal' barracks don't come around until half-way through the third age, so your capital will be your only vet units for most of the game. (There are a couple other wonders, Alex' Army is one, and of course the Romans wonder is a barracks in every city, making them an automatic military power). Generally you want your second city as your worker/settler pump (which is harder to achieve, as they are more expensive, and city sizes are smaller), so your capital can concentrate on military. I find 2 archers and a warrior or two is good for defeating barbs. (BTW, Archers are required to get barbs off mountains, most units cannot enter mountains normally). This is intentional, it limits early contact and expansion, both for humans and AI, and reinforces the 'Ancient' feel. After all, most of the first age is pre-Bronze Age. That's also why the tech pace is so expensive.

As to the map, the only problem with the Large Med map is that it's Large! [crazyeye] Picking two civs that are near one another, as in your game, is fine, but civs from distant parts of the map may take two ages to meet one another otherwise. I personally prefer the Large Med map for solo play, but for PBEM, it will make for a very long time without contacting the other civs, especially by the time you fight your way through the barbs. :D We could always use the Large Med map, but choose nearby civs. I will post a start map for that one as well so people can judge for themselves.

EDIT: Here's the starting map (Note, the Massagetae were added in the upper right corner after I made this map):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041222154_TAM_MedLg_StartMap.jpg
46.51*KB

Socrates

22-12-2004, 01:32

OK thanks, Justus II ! [thumbsup] After all I'm content that I sent you a PM telling you that TAM had landed on CDZ. :) I prefer to continue comments of my game vs Paali in the open thread. Up to people to decide on the map, but I hope we'll be more than 4. I now got the idea this mod REALLY isn't played like the epic game. [crazyeye] I need to think of a new strategy... and look at what awaits us in next eras too. Refraining from expanding too fast can be a big challenge for me.

ERIKK

22-12-2004, 10:00

Looks great although if we decide to play with more than 4 players and not all civs are strong -
then some people will have a disadvantage. Not fun!

If we play with 4 people we can pick the 4 strongest. You have to inform us which are strong.

Justus; can the AI handle more than 8 players in this scenario started in PBEM? I mean, as far as
I know you can only have 8 players in a PBEM so using the large map would be a non issue. Using
the small map and narrow it down to 8 players is the reasonable option then (as you said).

Justus II

22-12-2004, 21:45

The 8 civs in PBEM is hard-coded, no getting around that. As for the relative strength of the civs, here's my off-the-cuff rankings, and why:

Egypt- Great wonder (ToE effect, available from start or can be delayed to grab some early 2nd-age techs), Very fertile starting terrain
Babylon- Fertile starting terrain, civ-specific improvment allows cheap culture early, when most other civs will get no expansions until late in the first age, and even then it's very expensive.
Medes- Very powerful in hands of human (IMHO), as they start with the availability of revolting into Deiko's rule, their version of Monarchy. Also can build an Intel Agency type wonder from start. (Should be a lot of fun to play, though...)
Persia- Strong wonder (SoZ-type), also allows a second city to produce vet units.
Hittites- Very powerful wonder (stronger version of Ironworks), they can usually build that then grab whichever other wonders they want.
Assyria- Two wonders together can make them a research powerhouse, decent start location.
Lydia- Get a cheap early wonder (Wall-street effect), so they usually are an early cash cow.
Israel, Troy- Average
Mycenae, Minoans, Phoenicians- Decent civs, but their abilities tend toward seafaring. Great advantage on the Med map, as they can quickly colonize islands for luxuries, but on this map it's limited.

grs

22-12-2004, 21:47

Ok, I would like the Fertile Crescent map and play Persia if that is ok.

ERIKK

22-12-2004, 23:03

Me too, I would like the Egyptians!

I guess all we need are Krys' preferred civ and yours Justus and then
you or Krys (the organizer) can set things up.

Or will we wait for more players? What will we do, Krys?

BTW: the spread sheet is very usefull! :)

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif TAM-Stats25j.zip (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/20041222231451_TAM-Stats25j.zip)
54.45*KB

Pastorius

22-12-2004, 23:19

Justus II, I am prepared to fight my way through the barbarians. I never liked green anyway [:p]

Though I am not taking part in this slugfest of many great warleaders - I am glad to gain some info on the mod.

ERIKK: I test ran Fertile Crescent with Egypt, and steamrolled BRITONS [confused] [dunno] ) in the Sahara. WTF did the Britons do in Sahara where Nubia should be?

Anyway. The might and speed of the war chariot is even more fun than in the epic game. I got a very good empire without giving any effort to micromanaging, so add some careful analysis as well, and you ll wrap up all the other wankers easily :D )

Justus II

22-12-2004, 23:43

quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

ERIKK: I test ran Fertile Crescent with Egypt, and steamrolled BRITONS [confused] [dunno] ) in the Sahara. WTF did the Britons do in Sahara where Nubia should be?

If using the Fertile Crescent map, Culturally Linked Starting Locations MUST be checked, otherwise it randomly assigns civs (from the TAM subset) to the pre-set starting positions. Not sure why that is, but we confirmed it in testing, and there is (should be) a note in the Readme file about it.

I'll leave it to Krys to choose his civ, and I'll take one of the remaining. It seems everyone is going for a corner civ (depending on Krys' choice), which may work out well, and leave all 4 AI in the middle. We will also need to decide which of the remaining civs will be AI, out of the paired neighbor civs..

Socrates

22-12-2004, 23:50

Hey, seems this one is speeding up. I'm afraid I'll have to cool you down because I'm leaving on December 25 in the evening, until January 2 in the morning. I'd prefer to start this game during the first week of January. For the civs, I'll think about it when I get back, maybe other players may want to join this game ?

BTW I really wonder why the Assyrians are considered scientific. While preparing my never-to-come mod, I realized that real scientific civs were rare and thus hard to assign, but in this mod you even give them scientific advantages !? [dunno] Apart from Ashurbanipal's Library (which was a royal attempt at collecting ancient knowledge), I don't know what they did, if we forget real military progress. ;)

Justus II

23-12-2004, 02:04

All questions on Civ trait assignments should be directed to Thamis. He designed the original civs, and the traits were written in stone. The only changes we made related to traits were re-assigning starting techs to a)incorporate the C3C traits and b) be more standardized across civs. I believe at one point there was some discussion that the Assyrians were being given some credit for Sumerian heritage as well, since they aren't represented in the mod, and one of the Assyrian wonders is the Gilgamesh Epic. So it is somewhat of a combination.

As to start time, January is fine with me, I hope to be busy with Rome:Total War in a couple days (I already know my brother-in-law bought it for me for Christmas). :D That would also give those not as familiar with the mod some time to play around in SP mode, if they want.

BTW (Shameless plug here) Watorrey is preparing to sponsor a TAM-of-the-Month event at his own website, www.watorrey.net, which should kick off next week. Feel free to join in, or at least read some of the spoiler/report threads once it starts to get a better feel for the mod.

Socrates

23-12-2004, 02:26

Yeah, thamis, why did you make the fucking Assyrians the most scientific civ in your mod ? [shout] Not dare answer ? Fine. [rant] [lol] OK, noted for the Sumerian heritage, though I wonder why the Babylonians don't get credit for the heritage. [scratch] OK, I stop with my comments.

Yes feel free to explore this mod, I don't need to, I'm the genius of the lamp. [rabbit] TAM of the Month ? But how can I play all my PBEMs to come, RBCiv Epics to come, my conquests on solo, GOTMs to piss off ainwood because I'm so good but like to bypass CFC's censure ? [joker] We'll see...

(I'm somewhat excited and nervous at the moment, this post wanted a lot of weird sentences and smileys.)

akots

23-12-2004, 02:36

Assyrians ... scientific ... Looks rather peculiar to me. I know some modders sometimes go heavy on beer and all other modders go heavy on wine or stronger beverages and those modders who don't use other drugs. So, may be just "the inspiration demanded" that Assyria is scientific. Well, somebody has to be scientific after all. [lol]

Justus II

23-12-2004, 03:26

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
TAM of the Month ? But how can I play all my PBEMs to come, RBCiv Epics to come, my conquests on solo, GOTMs to piss off ainwood because I'm so good but like to bypass CFC's censure ? [joker] We'll see...

I know the feeling, I don't even remember the last Civ game I actually "completed", had to be the Caribean Epic last summer. I'm not even sure I'll complete the TAM of the Month myself, depending on work schedule, but I thought I'd make it available!

Socrates

23-12-2004, 12:01

No worries, man. :) I had seen the announcement for the TAM of the Month anyway. I stopped being in the state of rushing-solo-games-to-complete-them-all-in-time more than one year ago (GOTM+RBCiv). After a short burnout I eventually was able to register here and start my Civ3-retirement :D by playing PBEMs at my pace (before, I couldn't, as I didn't have the technical requirement at home).

And akots, yes, somebody has to be scientific after all, but... if I'm not mistaken both Assyrians and Macedonians are mil/sci. [hmm] So, no, it was a deliberate and thought decision.

No one more for what will be an epic PBEM ? :)

Stapel

26-12-2004, 10:27

Count me in!

ERIKK

26-12-2004, 11:22

choose a civ!

Stapel

26-12-2004, 15:17

Who is who up till now?

ERIKK

26-12-2004, 23:09

Darn you are lazy!!!! [smirk]

Read up for teams and locations. Check the zip for explanation,
tables and stuff.

Civs: Egypt, Babylon, Medes, Persia, Hittites, Lydia, Israel, Troy,
Mycenae, Minoans, Phoenicians.

Krys - will choose after christmas
Justus - will choose last
grs - Persia
ERIKK - Egypt
Stapel - ?

akots

28-12-2004, 07:52

I decided first to try it single-player before thinking of such a big adventure. :)

Downloading and installing now.

Played for an hour. First impression: It is a great mod but moving very-very slowly. Tech costs are huge and production costs are also huge. But it looks great and has a great feeling! If it is a bit accelerated, it can be great for PBEM certainly!

watorrey

29-12-2004, 15:22

Tip: (maybe you guys already know) Whoever starts the game must start a random game of the correct world size and barbarian setting prior to starting the TAM map. Fertile Crescent = standard. It's the only way to make sure the corruption, tech rate, and barbarian settings are right on premade maps... at least in C3C.

Socrates

03-01-2005, 23:24

OK, I've just thought a bit about it, so if we use the Fertile Crescent map, I want to play as the Babylonians. I've just explored their starting area with the warrior and the settler, and it seems they can't enter swamp tiles (who can ?), and we aren't allowed to settle in the desert, which diminishes the power of the agricultural trait (which I bash in other games, lol).

Still, playing as Babylon is tempting, so be it ! :) Other players, please say hello and more !

akots

04-01-2005, 01:20

Babylon and Assyria don't have horses in Fertile Crescent. Their bowmen are good though. But still it looks like chariots are the real balance-breaking unit since they have 3 movement points and cost only 30 shields.

So far, I have played the main large map as Mithridates of Kolchis to 160BC going probably for 20K cultural victory with the help of some slave sacrifice. Must admit that this is a completely different game. Difference is substantially higher between TAM and Conquests than between Conquests and vanilla. Management, growth, production, and everything is really different and completely. And there are no military alliances apparently until much later in the game but RoP is an easy thing to get after MapMaking. So, remote wars with AI are a real danger. They will come to you from the other side of the map eventually. Also, I was RoP raped already 4 times and twice by Babylon!

ERIKK

04-01-2005, 08:56

We have 5 players and are missing the civ from Justus and Stapel.

I also need the tech reference for this game.

*searching right now*

Justus II

04-01-2005, 18:10

Just to summarize where we are, the following civs have been determined:

Egypt - ERIKK
Babylon - Krys
Persia - grs

Civs remaining:
Assyria (recommend it to be AI, it starts too close to Babylon for another human)
Hittite
Mycenae/Minoan
Lydia/Troy
Israel/Phonecia
(One of each pair will be in the game)

I will let Stapel choose first, then I will take one of the remaining civs. I'd recommend leaving Phonecia/Israel as an AI also, just because they're centrally located, unless Stapel really wants one of them.

Socrates

05-01-2005, 08:23

Could be cool to start the game this weekend. We need Stapel to choose a civ, and after that Justus II. One more player could be nice too, so akots, are you interested ?

As for me, I'm going to start worshipping Goddess Ishtar... [hmm] Crazy Iraqis (Saddam), who rebuilt a smaller version of her Gate on the ancient site... [hmm]

ERIKK

05-01-2005, 09:12

Played a bit yesterday. Nice graphics, 'great feel' this game has. I dont think we should add
more human players as this game is quite slow. At least no more than 6. I also think that the AI
level should be high to prevent them from being exploited by 5 or 6 smarter humans.

I love that Phoenician Merchant! It is a great scout ship and looks are very cool.

Once started I will ask Matrix to add this game to the Turn Tracker site. I PM'd Stapel to let
us know his civ.

I uploaded 3 of the 4 tech trees.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2005159913_1.jpg
171.42*KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2005159942_2.jpg
182.34*KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/20051591344_4.jpg
149.32KB

akots

05-01-2005, 09:37

This might be exceptionally slow (at least 300 turns or so) and with AI in it. So, I will pass on this one. :)

Would prefer to play a Deity level SG over at CFC. Might be a real challenge. Or try AWE variant. With that many AIs it will be a great variant.

Stapel

05-01-2005, 11:01

I'll be Phoenix :D !

ERIKK

05-01-2005, 12:01

OK Stapel.

Egypt - ERIKK
Babylon - Krys
Media/Persia - grs (Persia)
Israel/Phonecia - Stapel (Phonecia)
Assyria - AI

TWo more AI and Justus

Free:
Hittite
Mycenae/Minoan
Lydia/Troy

AI level: I prefer Deity (or else Demigod)

grs

05-01-2005, 18:24

I'd prefer DemiGod in an unknown mod.

Socrates

05-01-2005, 19:13

Aaah, too bad akots ! :( I'm sure we're all dedicated players who will play our turns quickly (I'll do). If you reconsider, please do it quickly !!! :)

I think Justus II should pick one of these :
- Media
- Assyria
- Hatti
- Lydia / Troy
and let down the Greek ones.

Assyria is at a reasonable distance to Babylon, just look at where Persia and Phoenicia are !! 6 humans and 2 AIs could be cool. I'd like Deity, so that the AIs can play a little.

ERIKK

05-01-2005, 19:20

AI Pref:
Deity: Krys, ERIKK
Demi: grs

Stapel, Justus?

(Most votes count IMO)

grs

05-01-2005, 20:03

quote:Assyria is at a reasonable distance to Babylon, just look at where Persia and Phoenicia are !! Assyria is about a quater the distance from Babylon as Phoenicia is from Persia.

Justus II

05-01-2005, 22:00

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

Aaah, too bad akots ! :( I'm sure we're all dedicated players who will play our turns quickly (I'll do). If you reconsider, please do it quickly !!! :)

I think Justus II should pick one of these :
- Media
- Assyria
- Hatti
- Lydia / Troy
and let down the Greek ones.

Assyria is at a reasonable distance to Babylon, just look at where Persia and Phoenicia are !! 6 humans and 2 AIs could be cool. I'd like Deity, so that the AIs can play a little.

Just a few comments, I will pick my civ when I get home and have a chance to look at the map again, and haer some more comments, but here's my thoughts:

Difficulty: This mod was tested almost exclusively at Monarch (most readily accessible for majority of players), with some testing at Emperor. I'd be fine with Demigod, the only reason I'd be hesitant about Diety is the barb factor. One of the things that keeps the AI in check early (and preserves the Ancient feel by limiting trading) is the quantity and quality of barbs. Higher level AIs, with many more starting units, will be much more able to kill off the nearby barbs, and I think you will see an exponential increase in their power, more so than the standard difficulties might expect. I could be wrong, but I'd recommend Demigod just to be a little safer.

Civs: I had planned (after Stapel's choice) on taking either Mycenae or Minoans, mostly so there would be some challenge to him on the seas. Otherwise, he will be the only player able to build naval units for most of the Ancient age, (the AI is rather slow to research that way) and it might be too much of an advantage. But I'd be willing to play one of the Asia Minor civs too. I preferred to keep the AI more toward the center, so there are more equal opportunities for different civs to interact with them.

EDIT: I thought we also mentioned earlier about possibly giving the humans some extra units to speed up the start, any thoughts on that? Standard is one settler and one warrior (no workers). Do we want to add a second settler, and/or a worker? Assume we will need at least one warrior for each non-combat unit, or barbs will eat them on the second turn (maybe first, some camps are only 2 tiles from start locations IIRC. We tried to make sure they were all 3 tiles away on Large Med map, but I never double-checked the Fertile Crescent map).

Once settings are determined, I can create an MP version with the designated civs, and if desired double-check barb locations to make sure everyone has a barb-free initial radius of 2 tiles. I would also need the desired play order/preferred play times (everyone use GMT please).

ERIKK

05-01-2005, 22:14

ERIKK, Stapel, Krys and GRS are all on CET time. You are the only one from the US.

An extra settler + warrior to speed things up is ok with me.

Your story on the difficulty and on the seafaring sound reasonable. I think it would be wise to follow your thoughts and have the diff set to Demigod and have you taking another seafaring civ. Let the AI have Assyria, Hatti and Media (or Lydia/Troy).

Socrates

05-01-2005, 22:25

Difficulty : dunno really, barbs are already uber-strong in this mod, so Deity AIs could relieve this tension a little... and there would be few AIs anyway ! At Demi-God, all the more if we get additionnal units, the AIs won't last long...

Additionnal units : I'm not entirely for that, because we lose some spirit of the mod, but I reckon we would play several boring months otherwise. [mischief] I'll follow Justus II there.

You taking a Greek tribe : as you want again, but is the Med that important on this map ? Are Mycenians, Minoans, Phoenicians, Israelis, Egyptians and Troyans really encouraged to sail on the sea, while they could travel and attack through land only ?

A last human for Media could be cool, otherwise the north and north-east will only be a matter of AIs. I'd be happy if akots joined us, I don't think that playing a long game is bad (the Swimming Pool look like this one, eh ?). akots, come back !!! :)

Apart from that, what about barbs ? I'd like to keep them like in C3C for the sake of it, otherwise it will confuse everyone. Too bad, but at least we'll be able to deal with them more easily (movement along the NW-SE axis).

EDIT : I'm thinking of a civ set up. Here it is.
We would be 6 humans (one more to find ;) ) and 2 AIs. It could be best to put the AIs in the middle of the map, and so I propose to have Phoenicia and Assyria as AIs, since the combo Babylon-Hatti doesn't look as central as the first one, with distance to the humans in mind. I wouldn't mind rethinking my civ at all, if eg. M. Stapel would be pissed off to not have the Phoenix and me still having Babylon's Lion. [mischief]
What do you all think ? We'd need another human, or have Babylon or Hatti as an AI.

ERIKK

05-01-2005, 22:59

Yeah: we can choose:

the one which it turned out last days:
Egypt - ERIKK
Babylon - Krys
Persia - grs
Phonecia - Stapel
Mycenae/Minoan - Justus
Assyria - AI
Hittite - AI
Media - AI

Choice #1 with best devided AI
The proposed one with Stapel changing for an AI center:
Egypt - ERIKK
Babylon - Krys
Persia - grs
Phonecia - AI
Mycenae/Minoan - Justus
Assyria - AI
Hittite - AI (or a 6th human)
Media - Stapel

Choice #2 with second best devided AI
The proposed one with Krys changing for an AI center:
Egypt - ERIKK
Babylon - AI
Persia - grs
Phonecia - Stapel
Mycenae/Minoan - Justus
Assyria - AI (or a 6th human)
Hittite - AI
Media - Krys

Preferred one is #1 then #2 and if no1 wants to chance pick the one as we turned out to.

Level: Demigod
Barbs: Roaming?
No extra units at start (fo rthe sake of the scenario)
Justus checks the starts for barbs

Stapel

05-01-2005, 23:00

Stapel plays Phoenicians :) .

Socrates

05-01-2005, 23:18

I'm staying with Babylon, since no one really wants to change what already exists. I'll now follow what is decided. :) I'm not the game master at all BTW, I'd prefer Justus II to be it if ever. BTW Justus, I need your MSN address, send me a PM.

ERIKK

05-01-2005, 23:20

OK

Civs
Egypt - ERIKK
Babylon - Krys
Persia - grs
Phonecia - Stapel
Mycenae/Minoan - Justus
Assyria - AI
Hittite - AI
Media - AI

Additional
Level: Demigod
Barbs: Roaming?
No extra units at start (fo rthe sake of the scenario)
Justus checks the starts for barbs

grs

05-01-2005, 23:46

Ok with me.

Socrates

06-01-2005, 00:47

Barbs : no more than roaming, they're awfully mighty.

I'm Babylon. Hammurabi or Nabuchodonosor II, time will tell. :) I must :
- beat the crap out of Assyria, so as to ensure my sovereignty on the lands of Babylon ; I'll ask the Medes for help ;
- conquer the Phoenician city-states one by one, so as to get timber for my buildings ; I'll enslave most of the Hebrew people too, and bring them to the City ;
- keep Egypt in check ; I'll make sure their dynasties are weak ;
- make sure the neo-Hittite kingdoms fight one another ; maybe culture and money will do the trick ?
- prepare for the Persian invasion ; Cyrus won't have his chance a 2nd time. [groucho]

P.S. : So Stapel chose "Phonycia", eh ??? [lol]

Justus II

06-01-2005, 03:04

OK, home now. I'll play Minoans (have always wanted to play them, should be interesting). I will review for barbs, then set up the game tonight. Level Demigod, Barbs Roaming. Play order will start with me, then just rotate around the map roughly counter-clockwise:

Minoan - Justus
Hittite - AI
Phonecia - Stapel
Assyria - AI
Babylon - Krys
Media - AI
Persia - grs
Egypt - ERIKK

I tried to alternate humans and AI as well. Last human (in this case, ERIKK) will determine barb behaviour, so if you want nerfed C3C barbs (NW/SE axis only), make sure you DON'T change the AIPatrol setting in your .INI file. Default is for slow barbarians. (I prefer the more random barbs, but the consensus seems to be keeping them to C3C expected behaviour).

Any other questions?

Justus II

06-01-2005, 03:59

OK, it turns out the barbs are much less numerous on this map than the Med Large I am used to, and there are no barb huts within 3-4 tiles of any start location. I'd recommend Restless (between Roaming and Raging) since there are fewer huts at start. They are still pretty tough units when you DO find them though! ;) Unless I hear otherwise, I will start this tomorrow, probably on my lunch break (GMT 1800 or so) so everyone has time to review the settings and make any final comments. I will need Stapel's email, however, so I can send him the save after my first turn.

ERIKK

06-01-2005, 09:34

OK - final comments

Stapel: bastiaanstapel XXXX hotmail XXXX com
Justus I need your adress!

My prefs:
Barb level: Restless
Barb behaviour: I havent touched my INI settings but can change it if you want me to, just say
what I have to change. I support your opnion on the behaviou but lets wait what the others say.

Stapel

06-01-2005, 10:13

So, what should I do?
Install some mod? which one(s) and how?

ERIKK

06-01-2005, 10:33

quote:Originally posted by Stapel

So, what should I do?
Install some mod? which one(s) and how?

[aargh]

Go read this thread!!!! In the first post there is a link to CFC.

Be sure to install the zip or self extracting file in your Conquest folder.

...and this one is for you: [mad2]

grs

06-01-2005, 11:06

Please keep them roaming and not tweak the ini file.

grs

06-01-2005, 11:12

As a last question: scientific leaders on or off?

Stapel

06-01-2005, 11:22

I did Erikk. Before I posted.
The post could be written by Cracker. A lot of text, a lot of links, I have found FIVE different downloads......

All I need is one line:

Click this link and install it in this-and-that folder.

Anything theat exceeds more than 1 line just confuses me.

I guess I will never understand why people feel the need to write long posts with tons of useless info.

ERIKK

06-01-2005, 11:30

[lol]

Go to CFC: the have the latest version in the #1 post Download the latest version of the TAM mod. Pick the exe file (selfextracting) Run this exe and point it to your conquests folder. It will extract things in there. Then run conquest and start a conquest and pick the fertile crescent. Then the game starts as a startup of a normal game.

Justus will make a PBEM based on this conquestscenario. I assume that, once made, we can simply load it from the main (load) menu.

Stapel

06-01-2005, 12:00

This leaves me totally flabbergasted.
After opening the CFC link, I indeed see a selfextracting exe.
Shouldn't I install the small 1.25j add-on after it?

If not, WHY THE FUCK IS IT THERE?
If yes, WHY THE FUCK IS IT NOT IN YOUR (too long) DESCRIPTION?

ERIKK

06-01-2005, 13:03

quote:Originally posted by Stapel

If not, WHY THE FUCK IS IT THERE?
If yes, WHY THE FUCK IS IT NOT IN YOUR (too long) DESCRIPTION?
Are we talking about my (too long) description now? Mine is short and bulleted. If so, I recommend you to cool down, take a deep breath and reread the few and simple lines I wrote to you...

Or are you still talking about Krys and Justus(?)...? [confused]

I checked the website of Justus (which you could have done yourself) and he is talking about 2.5j so I guess you need the add-on too. I myself havent upgraded yet. I have forgotten to install the 2.5j add-on. The scenario runs fine without the upgrade I can tell you from my own experience. :)

I am sorry I did not noted the add-on (I am sure Justus would have corrected me later today) and wasn't aware you would panic on this. ;)

Stapel

06-01-2005, 13:16

I am not panicing. I'm just surprised that the only really needed info is nowhere put rightly, yet there are 70 posts with relatively useless info. I just don't get that.

I dislike going through 4 different websites and a dozen different threads to find out what to do exactly. Especially, because this is not the safest way to do it right.
the easiest and safest way to do it right is simply follow 2 or 3 lines. Right now i figured out myself, and will post what to do (as an example) in the next post.

quote:Originally posted by ERIKK

quote:Originally posted by Stapel

If not, WHY THE FUCK IS IT THERE?
If yes, WHY THE FUCK IS IT NOT IN YOUR (too long) DESCRIPTION?
Are we talking about my (too long) description now? Mine is short and bulleted. If so, I recommend you to cool down, take a deep breath and reread the few and simple lines I wrote to you...

Or are you still talking about Krys and Justus(?)...? [confused]

I checked the website of Justus (which you could have done yourself) and he is talking about 2.5j so I guess you need the add-on too. I myself havent upgraded yet. I have forgotten to install the 2.5j add-on. The scenario runs fine without the upgrade I can tell you from my own experience. :)

I am sorry I did not noted the add-on (I am sure Justus would have corrected me later today) and wasn't aware you would panic on this. ;)

Let me put it this way Erikk:
Your despription contains 2 lines too many, namely quote:
-Then run conquest and start a conquest and pick the fertile crescent.
-Then the game starts as a startup of a normal game.

I won't panic on it (hey, it's not that bad), but what disturbs me in Krys's posts, Justus' posts and now your post, that is does contain (few in your case, or many in Krys' or Justus' case)) useless info, yet it does NOT contain the only two important notes (again, see next post).

Somewhere in the first posts, Krys mentioned it is very important we all use the same version (2.5j I suppose).
Yet, nowhere in this thread (NOWHERE, just like in the Cracker days), does is simply line up what you really have to do.

[jumpD]

Stapel

06-01-2005, 13:21

Stapel's directions (important):
to join this game, you need to do the following:

1. Click this link and install it into civilization III/conquests/conquests folder: http://civ3.watorrey.net/tam/TAM25i_c3c122_selfextracting.exe

2. Click this link and install it: http://civ3.watorrey.net/tam/TAM_25i_to_25j.zip

Not too hard huh ;)
quote:I am sorry I did not noted the add-on (I am sure Justus would have corrected me later today)
Now, assume he would NOT have informed you, because it was obvious (in his view), and the game would have crashed in turn 121 or so........

ERIKK

06-01-2005, 13:29

I am sure Justus will tell us all to use 2.5j if not he should let us know too.

Stapel, I miss your opinion on:
- barb setting (roaming or restless)
- barb behaviour (C3C style or not, read up for info ;))

On the SGL's: I hope they are out, if not, Justus let us know!

Stapel

06-01-2005, 13:38

quote:Originally posted by ERIKK

I am sure Justus will tell us all to use 2.5j if not he should let us know too.
Probably.
I just find it hard to understand that it was not simply posted somewhere like the way I did, yet there are tons of info posted on various totally unimportant stuff.
Maybe I am oversensitive.
I guess it has to be that way. I have seen it so many times. A gazillion posts with the important info hidden in it like a puzzle. Why not simply post the 2 or 3 needed directions and shut up about it?

quote:Stapel, I miss your opinion on:
- barb setting (roaming or restless)
- barb behaviour (C3C style or not, read up for info ;))
I don't really care, as long as I am informed what it is going to be.

quote:On the SGL's: I hope they are out, if not, Justus let us know!
SGL should be off.
It is way too unbalancing in human PBEMs, imho.

Justus II

06-01-2005, 16:37

OK, sorry for any confusion on the most current version. Yes, we will play using 2.5j, which tweaks some unit support cost/government issues and a few requirements. Because the other players had been discussing their first impressions of the mod, I assumed everyone had already downloaded it and been playing it. And yes, I planned on sending out a 'planning email', but I need everyone's email address! Mine is joe-s AT insightbb DOT com.

I agree, SGL's off. I will await more comments on the barbs issue until I get home for lunch.

grs

06-01-2005, 16:40

christian DOT muelders AT t-online DOT de

ERIKK

06-01-2005, 16:56

%%%%%%%%%%%

Socrates

06-01-2005, 19:48

Cool down, Stapel ! ;) I wanna say something : unlike Cracker's GOTM, this mod is not of my responsability AT ALL, and so I suffer the same difficulties as you, Stapel !! The difference is I spent much time to figure out what to do to get the best experience with this mod. I agree with you that it'd be best to have all the essential info updated in one place, but sometimes it's not possible, because :
- Thamis has worked hard for so long on this, and does surely not feel like following his baby until Civ4 and more, too bad, but life is life ;
- Watorrey started to work on it after Thamis, and got his own website as well ;
- Justus II was interested by this mod, and built a mini-civilopedia sheet on his website ;
- the CDG site (where we play the ISDG) was first used by Thamis for developping this mod, but didn't receive much update lately.

Anyway, my 1st post here states that "We'd need to make sure that everyone has the exactly same version. At the moment the latest version is 2.5j." Up to you to figure out how to install it properly, Stapel, and I gave you the different links. Please calm down. :)

Barbs : I vote for "roaming". Barbs are so tough here, they are 4/2/1 IIRC and our warriors are 2/2/1. [crazyeye]

SGL's : I don't mind. Just remember there are many, many, many wonders in this mod, ie. more occasions to use SGLs for them, ie. less challenge in wonders (the more wonders, the less good one is in particular).

Barb behaviour : I think it could be best to keep as they are in C3C, otherwise it will be a nightmare to coordinate that between players, and between different games... Keep them dumb.

My email : same as for MSN, found in profile. ;)

Justus II

06-01-2005, 20:06

OK, consensus was for Barbs roaming (set), C3C behavior (the default, so if ERIKK hasn't changed his .INI file, we are set there as well), and no SGL (disabled). I've taken my first turn, and am sending an email to everyone with turn order and addresses, and the save to Stapel. Remember, governments have 'research rate' limits, for despotism it is 60% max. But that also applies to tax rate, none of the three sliders can be set above 60%. In other words you can't really go min science, as the computer will auto-adjust your slider back to 60% tax (really, 40% science) at the end of the turn.

Let us build new and glorious Civilizations!