Civ4 : info & screenshots !

[Socrates]

Going to CFC before going to bed, and BADAM ! The frontpage has a message from TF with info and screenshots from Civ4 !!! It is from a PC magazine in the US, not released yet. Here is some important stuff :

- Development is being headed by creator Sid Meier himself.

- Civ IV has been written entirely from scratch.

- The 3D engine will allow you to zoom smoothly from a global view all the way down to a single city.

- Individual units will gain experience and acquire new upgrades such as bonuses against specific enemy types and the ability to use enemy roads.

- No more spearmen defeating tanks.

- Besides incorporating new technologies, the tech tree has been changed to allow radically different research paths to the same high-level technologies. Now you won’t have to follow a strict research path to be competitive later in the game – a design that opens up a whole new world of possibilities.

- Civilization IV has been designed to fully support the mod community. The game is written using flexible XML data files and the Python scripting language so that modders will have no trouble at all creating their own personalized worlds, units, technologies, and historical events. Advanced modders will even be able to control the AI.

- Civ4 has been designed from the outset to include the multiplayer mode. You will be able to team up in co-op mode against the AI or other teams of players, and a random-map generator ensures an equal start.

And there are 2 scans with rather... odd graphics, even if it's way too early to have a real opinion.

CDZers want to talk about it, without the CFC general mess ? ;)


EDIT : Here are the 2 pics in full size. No word from either anarres or ProPain, and I see other sites hosting them or giving a link to them.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200412615527_Civ4-pic1.jpg
180.88 KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004126155328_Civ4-pic2.jpg
162.37 KB

[Matrix]

1: Cool!
2: Great!
3: Cute... Although it can become quite silly: the fact that Civ3's world is flat will only show more clear.
4: Can't tell how that will work out.
5: Important!
6: Best news I've heard so far! [goodjob]
7: I hope there will still be possibilities for amateur mods, like me. I've seen it happen so often in games that the more complicated the program becomes, the more complicated it becomes to make your own levels. Best example is Doom and it's successors.
8: Equal start: good.

About the screenshots: the only thing I say is that it's good you can see the squares again.

[Plux]

Strange pics.. Looks like they're implementing the group units mod somehow. Still lots of work to do, but always good to have a taste [happy]

[digger760]

i dont like the look of the graphics..but my guess is that will be modable.

EDIT - infact looking at the graphics again..they are so bad that i now relise that this is somehthing the art department probably whipped up just for a basic system. I am sure that the final will look far better.

[Melifluous]

Bear in mind also that the pics look to have been scanned from a PC Magazine article thus lowering the quality further ;)

Melifluous

[Pastorius]

The resemblence with the engine used for RTW is striking IMO

Didnt even want to comment on it @ CFC, since that forum is overspammed with n00bs as it is :(

[Shabbaman]

First reaction to the screenshots: "OMFG it's Captain Butt Ugly!"

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/pcgamer_jan05_scan1.jpg

The units look as butt ugly as the land battle screen in Pirates 2. I bet it's comparatively unplayable.

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/pcgamer_jan05_scan2.jpg

My guess is that the windmill is a form of terrain improvement, like mines. Cute, but probably nothing fancy.

(btw, bandwith theft from CFC is some good ;) )

"Civ IV has been written entirely from scratch.": which is the only way to make sure you don't have to be afraid of copyright infringment. Captain Obvious to the rescue!

"The 3D engine will allow you to zoom smoothly from a global view all the way down to a single city.": so it has built in save your eyesight mod. Wow.

"Individual units will gain experience and acquire new upgrades such as bonuses against specific enemy types and the ability to use enemy roads.": hey, they played R:TW as well!

"No more spearmen defeating tanks.": so either no more RNG, or obsolete units are worthless.

"Now you won’t have to follow a strict research path to be competitive later in the game – a design that opens up a whole new world of possibilities.": so they're changing one of the defining aspects of civ.

"Advanced modders will even be able to control the AI.": interesting!

"Civ4 has been designed from the outset to include the multiplayer mode." So no follow up to PTW? Do they really want to make a decent game this time?

BTW, if this game really comes with the kind of editor and moddability they're talking about, it might be so that there's not even a need for expansions. Look at Battlefield:1942 for example, where the desert combat mod is received better than Battlefield:Vietnam.

[grahamiam]

another interesting note from Soren on Apolyton in regards to gameplay ("unfun" elements)

quote:
Originally posted by Solver
Yes, speculation it is mostly, as I said previously. But they said they'd "get rid of" these unfun elements, that's good - but I do indeed hope they will be replaced with something more interesting.


quote:
Originally posted by Soren
There seems to have been a lot of consternation about the "get rid of unfun elements" quote. Perhaps I should clarify. We have identified the game pieces of Civ which have caused the most user annoyances (pollution, corruption, etc.). Instead of trying to band-aid these problems, we are mostly tossing them out and implementing better systems that will require less micro-management, provide better high-level control, and still create interesting gameplay challenges. Pollution, for example, is being replaced by a more comprehensive "Health" system which has a large variety of positive and negative influences. There is no need to go into detail yet - even though I am sure you can imagine some of the factors - the important point is that we aren't just chucking the whole thing.

The take-home here is that we understand that cleaning-up pollution is not fun. We can fix that!

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

Didnt even want to comment on it @ CFC, since that forum is overspammed with n00bs as it is :(
Indeed. This is decisive. CFC is not my home anymore. [cry]

Right now we are at about exactly the same time as when I registered at CFC: a year before a Civ-version is presented. I registered there to talk about Civ3, and then it was just as cool as it is here now.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by Matrix

Indeed. This is decisive. CFC is not my home anymore. [cry]

Right now we are at about exactly the same time as when I registered at CFC: a year before a Civ-version is presented. I registered there to talk about Civ3, and then it was just as cool as it is here now.

Welcome home, Matrix !!! [cry] [cry] [cry] I'm so... joy-sad ! :) You will see, CDZ is a bit small, but it is dense and joyful. LOL. It's "good" to see you say that, sorry if it reminds you of the good 'ol days at CFC in a way. But wait, we might have a better surprise for you, but it's just not the right time now. Maybe after Christmas ? Or later ? [hmm] Stay tuned !

[Socrates]

My go at those important elements. I won't comment on the pictures (Shabba, I get red crosses from CFC :D ), because it is damn too early to have an intelligent comment, and the pics are too blurry, and we don't even know what they mean.


- Development is being headed by creator Sid Meier himself.
Welcome back Sid ! Good news, but I seem to think he'll just do like in Civ3 : wander in the room and have a comment or two with the designers or graphics freaks from time to time. I don't mind, this will guarantee quality, and I have faith in Soren Johnson anyway.

- Civ IV has been written entirely from scratch.
The best news so far. Period. I started to get a little understanding of the game industry when I joined CFC, and I now think that rewriting a game that started more than 10 years ago can only be good. This will allow more flexibility to make real changes, and they'll be able to forget about stuff that couldn't be properly fixed (maybe like how the turns are sequenced...).

- The 3D engine will allow you to zoom smoothly from a global view all the way down to a single city.
Quite nice, though it's not a real requirement from my part. I hope it will run smooth in every case.

- Individual units will gain experience and acquire new upgrades such as bonuses against specific enemy types and the ability to use enemy roads.
I think it is good news, if we get some simplicity in other combat areas, otherwise fighting will become a mess and time-consuming ! It will surely not be RPG-like, I think it will be a extension of what happened with Civ3's conscript-to-elite path and its leaders system.

- No more spearmen defeating tanks.
Wondering what it really means, maybe we'll get some unit classes at last ? Don't know, I was rather OK with Civ3's RNG, it pushed you to build a far greater army to gain an advantage (something I'm shit at), but it might lead to an even better combat system. Wait and see...

- Besides incorporating new technologies, the tech tree has been changed to allow radically different research paths to the same high-level technologies. Now you won’t have to follow a strict research path to be competitive later in the game – a design that opens up a whole new world of possibilities.
I have to see what it really means once again, but it seems that the tech tree will get a radical change from the previous versions. If it leads to no more no-brainers such as the Republic slingshot or the ToE-Electronics thing (at least in solo games), this is nice. If it helps making the different tribes look more different, all the better (either per se or in a different way each game).

- Civilization IV has been designed to fully support the mod community. The game is written using flexible XML data files and the Python scripting language so that modders will have no trouble at all creating their own personalized worlds, units, technologies, and historical events. Advanced modders will even be able to control the AI.
Once again good news. I'd like to mod myself but I'm so lazy, maybe it will help me to get something done ? :D I put this news into the same category as "the game is written from scratch". Events were missing in Civ3. Changing the AI can extend the lifespan of the game like no other thing !

- Civ4 has been designed from the outset to include the multiplayer mode. You will be able to team up in co-op mode against the AI or other teams of players, and a random-map generator ensures an equal start.
Great, great, great !!! [thumbsup] Or to be honest : I'm relieved we'll get multiplayer immediately. To say the truth, I won't buy Civ4 until it gets a decent multiplayer option. I'll crack it instead, period. I can't imagine myself not playing the game in PBEM anymore, so that is THE one requirement. An intelligent random mapmaker (or so it seems) sounds very nice. We'll see if it is as good as our own mapmakers (I doubt it).

All in all, I have quite a strong faith in Civ4 at this stage. We'll see how it turns out. I for one don't mind (and even is pleased with) the radical changes that Soren seems to be doing. I'd like Civ4 to be more different from Civ3 than #3 from #2, and #2 from #1. The "rewriting from scratch" and "XML + Python" thingies make me think Civ4 will meet this dream. Hopefully it won't include thousands of new bugs and "wrong features", and hopefully we'll still have the original Civ feeling, at least Sid being there makes for it.

Good luck to the dev team ! [thumbsup]

[Plux]

Question: What would you guys think when they would implement a combat system such as in Rome Total War, where you can either decide to let the computer calculate the outcome or you can dive in yourself for some strategic battling. That's one thing I miss a bit in civ, combat strategy. Civ only requires a bit of geographic combat strat, but I would like to see some more indeep battling made possible. Especially when they would make that optional, so that you can still have the RNG kill your tank by a spear [viking]
[tvs]

[Socrates]

Anyone has saved the 2 images on his PC ? CFC removed them because of PC Gamer, and I now look like a fool everywhere, especially on a French strategy forum where I've just made it on the front page. [thumbsup] Anyone ? [cry]

[Markstar]

@krys: What browser do you use? Have you checked your cache? It *should* still be there under normal circumstances

@plux: Mmh, while I do like those kinds of games as well (ideas like this existed even before Civ: Centurion, Lords Of The Realm, etc) it does kind of take the focus away from what Civ is about. Plus, to make sure everything goes as good as possible, you'd have to take charge of every battle. But this would take away a random factor and thus spoiling an important part of the game.

I don't think they plan it for CivIV, however it seems like they could be thinking about implementing something like that to make the game more 'exciting' - which could end up like the land fights in Pirates! (OMG, just imagine those fights in Civ: a horrible thought, it gives me the creeps just to think of the endless time it took those boring units to move from square to another. In all my years of gaming and playing (sometimes) boring games, this was the worst of all :(). Sorry, but a company that can create such 'unfun elements' as those land fights can turn a great game like Civ into a nightmare. [scared]

[Socrates]

Markstar, I wonder how you still can see those pictures, since CFC said they removed them because of PC Gamer. [???] Other saying : the links are dead. I got the images now, thanks to someone, but they are smaller than before. Anyway, the pics were so blurry that we don't lose much, and I still get around the same as before when I zoom in. [groucho] I don't know what I should do, do we have the balls to play pirates (not the game !!) and show our butts to PC Gamer ? I leave the question to anarres and ProPain, and if yes I will edit the very 1st post with both pics, maybe in zoomed version. [groucho]

[Markstar]

Mmh, I thought you really "lost" the pics and wanted to get them again. And since usually (which means if you use IE) all files (including pics) are stored in C:\Documents and Settings\-user name-\Local Settings\Temporary Internet Files , this is where you could find these pictures.

[Ginger_Ale]

You're welcome krys. ;) All I did was google... :)

[Socrates]

Thanks Markstar for the help on MSN, and thanks Ginger_Ale for the smaller ones. I have both pics in both sizes now. Depends on whether anarres and ProPain want to become real pirates now...

[Markstar]

You're welcome! ;)

But I don't think it's that important. I bet most of us have seen the pics anyways by now. Plus, they are really not that great and not representative anyways.

[akots]

- Development is being headed by creator Sid Meier himself.
This is very important and will probably ensure decent playability.

- Civ IV has been written entirely from scratch.
Apparently even more bugs and glitches can be anticipated.

- The 3D engine will allow you to zoom smoothly from a global view all the way down to a single city.
Usually these things cripple everything. Smooth zooming never works imo, there still will be levels and it will be glitchy. I'm thinking of camera view controls and RTW.

- Individual units will gain experience and acquire new upgrades such as bonuses against specific enemy types and the ability to use enemy roads.
Can make combat and movement too complicated. It is already rather complicated like it is, no need to add more features.

- No more spearmen defeating tanks.
Long overdue. Guess there will be free spearmen upgrades...

- Besides incorporating new technologies, the tech tree has been changed to allow radically different research paths to the same high-level technologies. ...
That is weird.

- Civilization IV has been designed to fully support the mod community. The game is written using flexible XML data files and the Python scripting language so that modders will have no trouble at all creating their own personalized worlds, units, technologies, and historical events. Advanced modders will even be able to control the AI.
Apparently this means modders will put more time to modding and less to playtesting their mods.

- Civ4 has been designed from the outset to include the multiplayer mode. You will be able to team up in co-op mode against the AI or other teams of players, and a random-map generator ensures an equal start.
This is not a great extra feature, this is essential must-be-there feature.

Sorry if it sounds sceptical.

[Markstar]

@akots: I don't think it sounds too sceptical at all. Actually I don't even think Sid Meier's presence will make much of a difference.

And yes, expect A LOT of bugs.

"Expect the worst, hope for the best."

[Shabbaman]

quote:Originally posted by Plux

Question: What would you guys think when they would implement a combat system such as in Rome Total War, where you can either decide to let the computer calculate the outcome or you can dive in yourself for some strategic battling.


It would be lame. It'd take the focus away from the primary mission, building a civilization. Anyway, even in R:TW I've reverted to computer calculated battles.
I recently thought about the way combat was done in the Civ:CTP series. That's a good way to promote the use of combined forces.

As for Sid being present: it's his company, so duh.

[Sir Eric]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

another interesting note from Soren on Apolyton in regards to gameplay ("unfun" elements)

quote:
Originally posted by Solver
Yes, speculation it is mostly, as I said previously. But they said they'd "get rid of" these unfun elements, that's good - but I do indeed hope they will be replaced with something more interesting.


quote:
Originally posted by Soren
There seems to have been a lot of consternation about the "get rid of unfun elements" quote. Perhaps I should clarify. We have identified the game pieces of Civ which have caused the most user annoyances (pollution, corruption, etc.). Instead of trying to band-aid these problems, we are mostly tossing them out and implementing better systems that will require less micro-management, provide better high-level control, and still create interesting gameplay challenges.


If the emphasis is moving away from micro management, will that allow the gamer less control over his empire then he currently has?


I like the ability to play a regent level game and just focus on a conquest win without too much MM, and I also enjoy playing a Monarch or occasional Emporer SG and practice improving my MM skills. I hope the new civ allows for such a difference in playing styles as Civ3 does.

[Pastorius]

http://www.arenanetwork.com.br/modules.php?set_albumName=album152&id=CIV_4_box&op=modload&name=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Brazillian website, but some of the screens are "new"

My opinion: Dont like the look of it right now. Probably wont buy it...
edit: I care more for gameplay, but as it is right now, I dont have an incentive to rush out and buy a game considering that civ3 took considerable time to shape into what it is today. I bought civ3 as soon as it came to norway, and that was an "unfinished" product, slightly prematurely released.

The graphics of this new civ4 does look a bit annoying imo, thus I will not rush out to get it. In fact I might wait for a year before getting it, if I get it at all - to see what trustworthy people say about gameplay :)

[Aggie]

It not the looks, but the gameplay and the AI. We need a more powerful AI than we have in civ3.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Aggie

It not the looks, but the gameplay and the AI. We need a more powerful AI than we have in civ3.


I completely agree with that, Aggie. But the problem is that most gamers go for flashy graphics before gameplay and game development has logically followed that trend. So, it's quite probable that Civ4 will be even less playable than unpatched vanilla civ3 was, with nice graphics (though they need to work on that a bit, 'cause IMHO those screenshots are damn ugly!).

[Shabbaman]

OTOH, they can start with the civ3 AI and build from there. They must've learned something from creating civ3, especially the conquests debacle.

Though I don't know if they actually see c3c as a failure. Maybe it sold really good.

[Matrix]

It is said that Sid Meier is on top of it, like with every version of Civ3, so it should be ok with game play. And now that they don't have Infogrames/Atari anymore there is a possibility that the new ones are more patient, so that it will be less buggy.

All in all, you shouldn't underestimate the power of graphics. I still stick to the opinion that it was graphics that made Civ1 so extremely addictive.

[Matrix]

Four new screenshots:
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/620/620513/imgs_1.html

And new info: front page CivFanatics.

Those screens are getting better, don't you think? :)

[Plux]

Looks good.. But I disagree with you on your earlier remark that civ is about graphics. To me, it is mainly about gameplay. IMHO many other strategy games look just as good or even better than civ, but still they are not civ

[Matrix]

But I didn't say graphics is more important than gameplay. People just tend to underestimate the power of graphics. :)

Civ1 was addictive for it's gameplay. It was very addictive, because of the finishing touch of the graphics. The terrain was almost tangible, calling for culturalization. [vampire]

[Markstar]

Yes, it's looking better. You can clearly tell that it is a similar engine to Pirates!.

However, I don't find these graphics appropriate for Civ. Looking at the world map I can't tell what is where. With many unit's this effect will get even worse. But there is still time so maybe they'll adjust that. Or maybe I'm just too negative about Civ4. [:p]

[Markstar]

Well, looking at the next screenshot it indeed looks better. I actually kinda like the grapics.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2005519114146_Civ4 screen3_70.jpg
194.53KB

More shots here:
http://www.tothegame.com/screenshot.asp?id=3667

Still, the whole coloring of the units, cities and territories makes it hard(er) to (easily) differentiate the several aspects.

Examples:
- Brown flags are almost not noticeable since they blend in with the territory, making it harder to figure out which unit belongs where (I prefer the old method where parts of the unit resemble the owners color). This is also very apparent on the horse unit north of Agade. It faces east and the flag is almost gone/hard to tell apart from other nationalities.

- Even if the units themselves would resemble their owners nationality, with the current color scheme (brown, white, dark gray), it'd still be hard(er) to figure out which tribe they actually belong to.

- Tile improvements have little buildings now? That makes it harder for the eye to make out what is a city, hut or just a mined tile.

- Units "hide" the cities (towns) underneath, thereby making it hard(er) to tell where the cities are. In previous Civs you did not need to look at the city information to know where your cities are.

- While the forrest/jungle looks nice, it is so big that its harder to identify which units is actually placed there.

- Some of the (infantry) units look very similar, another factor that makes it harder to differentiate the unit types.

- [minor] City desription needs to be worked at, the most important info is still what size the city has, especially since it seems you can't tell anymore by simply looking at it. [aargh]

- [minor] Only one kind of mountain (actually I see two but both look almost the same) which looks rather stupid. But I'm sure they are going to work on that since the mountains in Civ2 looks better than those.

- Again, there is a LOT "going on" on the map which might make it nice to look at, but hard to "focus" on the key aspects of the game (primarily, imho, the world map represents the "board" of the game (like in chess), thus the first object should be to make it easy for the player to identify city placements, unit positions, road networks, etc.)

Alright, that's it for now, don't have time to write more since I should be studying. Plus I think the gameplay is going to be like the current screenshots - nice to look at at first but too superficial for the decent Civ-player.
Anyways, didn't CDZ have pretty good contacts to Firaxis once?

[ERIKK]

Wow!!!! :)

Have you seen all the new stuff on Civ4. At CFC they have a lot of links to o.a. gamespot. I realy like what I saw in teh movies!!!

It will be out this summer and looks like a certain buy!

[Melifluous]

links dude please. Especially the movies :)

Melifluous

[Pastorius]

Front page of that other forum has them, you lazy bastard [:p]

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by ERIKK


It will be out this summer and looks like a certain buy!




I though the estimated release date was somewhere in november? [???]

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by Melifluous

links dude please. Especially the movies :)
I've been trying to get an ftp-server running on my computer, but have been unsuccesful so far. However, I am uploading the video files on my homepage as we speak. ETA 25 minutes, then you can download them there:
http://www.straland.com/download/Civ4Video01.mpg
http://www.straland.com/download/Civ4Video02.mpg
http://www.straland.com/download/Civ4Video03.mpg

But I will remove them after this weekend.

[Markstar]

Mmh, interesting. In the movies the city size is how it should be.
I still think that it looks good (especially the close-up fights) but when viewed from the distance it becomes hard to make out what is what.

What about the unit promotions? Are they in addition to an increased unit strength? I sure hope so since those promotions are fairly weak.
Those you can see from the movie:

[Sentry] +1 Visibility Range
[Mobility] -1 Terrain Movement Cost
[Drill 1] 1 Extra First Strike Chance
[Drill 2] +1 Extra First Strike
[Navigaton 1] +1 Movement Range
[Navigaton 2] +1 Movement Range
[Guerilla 1] + 20% Defense in Hills
[Guerilla 3] Double Movement in Hills, +30% Defense in Hills
[Medic 1] Heals Units in Same Tile Extra 10% Damage/Turn
[Medic 2] Heals Units in Adjacent Tiles Extra 10% Damage/Turn
[Flanking 1] +10% Withdrawal Chance
[Flanking 2] +20% Withdrawal Chance
[Bartage 3] +50% Collateral Damage, +10% vs Gunpowder Units
[A... ] +10% City Bombard Damage
[Wo...] +20% Jungle Defense, +20% Forrest Defense
[City Raider 1] +20% City Attack

And btw, I don't think ONLY having icons in the Civilopedia is such a good idea.

[ERIKK]

quote:Originally posted by Matrix

quote:Originally posted by Melifluous

links dude please. Especially the movies :)
I've been trying to get an ftp-server running on my computer, but have been unsuccesful so far. However, I am uploading the video files on my homepage as we speak. ETA 25 minutes, then you can download them there:
http://www.straland.com/download/Civ4Video01.mpg
http://www.straland.com/download/Civ4Video02.mpg
http://www.straland.com/download/Civ4Video03.mpg

But I will remove them after this weekend.
I guess the 15 minute movie was too big? ;)

That one has Soren explain stuff, answer questions and has loads of info!

[Beam]

Just watched the 15 min one, way cool! Lots of familiar stuff of course, the new concept of promotions seems very promising, all resources (28!) tradeble and last but not least PBEM and server based persistent multiplayer which allows games with a duration of months. Link to the vid: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/media.html

[Pastorius]

Since I find Civ to be more fun played versus softdrinks from the USA, bonecollectors from Germany and on team with metal freaks, I think the multiplayer news are really great.

I hope they get stable servers for this. I ve only ever been in 1 successful multiplayer game, where I lost with a terrible start condition relative to my nextdoor neighbour. Besides that one time, I havent been able to host a single event myself, and very often game lauch fail because of something I dont know how to fix...

[smalltalk]

Multiple unit units. :(

(Even the word is ugly.)

[Matrix]

I have to say, reading the newest news on the front page (about pollution and unhappy people) I'm getting more and more exciting about it! [:P] My only fair is that it's getting too complicated. They do seem to add more stuff in the game than they are removing. We as civ-fanatics ([mischief]) can handle that and will like it, but I fear the threshold will be too big for beginning players.

[Matrix]

Smalltalk, especially for you this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=119380). ;) I don't give it much chance though.

[Markstar]

Too complicated? With eliminating defense/offense values for units and replacing corruption and pollution with global variables?
I don't think so.

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by Markstar

Too complicated? With eliminating defense/offense values for units and replacing corruption and pollution with global variables?
I don't think so.


First, there would still be a certain probability of winning combat apparently. Whatever the values are, it does not matter how they are called as long as they determine the outcome of a particular combat. It would be just more intuitive and experience-based than rational without a/d/m values. And this is bad.

Second, with global corruption and pollution you don't know how to fight it. There sure would be some ways. But it could have been more tough. It would just be there and no way to do anything about it. If one remembers Civ1 global warming bug, this tells all. This might be also bad.

Third, I don't like the "spinning globe" idea. It speaks of low taste and major harware requirements. This would also mean that there would be an extremely complicated grid calculations and probably the productivity of a certain "tile" would depend on its area. And this is even more complicated. If it does not, then this whole ordeal is not worth a penny imho.

[Matrix]

About the globe: the screenshot below is of the 13 minutes stream video with Soren Johnson. You can see the ice cap is rather big. I think it's just an old fashion, but morphed, map.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Matrix/200552215412_Civ4Globe.jpg
24.33KB

By the way, it seems we actually get a majority on the single-unit units poll! [yeah]

[smalltalk]

Multiple units imply a different combat system. This is a bad
metaphor, unless the combat system is changed.

Units with hit-points have the same chance to win a rng-round regardless of how much hit points are left.

But a four-man unit obviously would have a far better chance to win against a one-man unit than against a four-man unit.

[ERIKK]

one man = 1 hitmpoint (hp)
4 man = 4 hp

etc etc, thats what Soren says in the 15 min video.

[Shabbaman]

I've found a E3 civ4 feature on gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/preview_6125513.html?q=1&tag=gs_pc_topslot_click). Some screenies (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/screenindex.html) as well.

[Shabbaman]

There's another civ preview on gamespy (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/civilization-iv/628662p4.html). Now read this:

quote:From our short experience with the game so far, it looks like everything we want from a Civ sequel. Games like Rome: Total War will give us a gritty, slow-moving, realistic strategy experience, whereas Civ IV is light, fast-moving, and fun.

Sounds like bad news. A light game? Bah... Besides, R:TW is just a bit more complex than a regular RTS game. If that's what they call gritty and slow-moving then I wonder how much arcade civ4 will be.

[akots]

Will disagree in one point: RTW is a very complex game with very complex city management indeed. If done properly.

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by akots

Will disagree in one point: RTW is a very complex game with very complex city management indeed. If done properly.
Is it more complex than Civ3 (or better yet, Civ2)?

But I think I have voiced my fear of a look-good-feel-good-keep-it-simple game instead of a great-strategy game enough so I stop now. [cool]

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by Markstar
... Is it more complex than Civ3 (or better yet, Civ2)? ...


It is certainly as complex as Civ3 (with governors on in Civ3) in terms of city management. There are no tiles and no micromanagement of them however. And individual provinces have certain pecularities you have to consider. But there is huge growth-happiness-productivity-tax puzzle in each of the cities. Fortunately, once you figure out how to grow influence trait with the family members, it's getting more tolerable.

I'm playing not so badly imho. Won vH/vH as Julii in 208BC and as Greek Cities in 232BC (50-province games) with all-bugs-fixed patch (from player1) and still did not figure the way how to cope with squalor efficiently. There are other issues as well I'm stll having a vague idea about.

[digger760]

i read somehwere vh/vh in RTW was not the hardest, it was a combination of medium/vh or vh medium foe some peculiar reason. But in General the AI in RTW is bad.

In regards to civ4, i think it is beyond doubt that i will buy it, regardless, if being shite. I <b>could</b> take it back within 10 days of purchase, but considering the potential of re-porgramming the AI with python scripting, it think that could keep the game open to end-less possibilities.

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by digger760

I <b>could</b> take it back within 10 days of purchase, but considering the potential of re-porgramming the AI with python scripting, it think that could keep the game open to end-less possibilities.
Yeah, you could be right. Maybe I need to stay a little more informed about the mods out there. I don't have any enhancements installed right now (besides the smiley for citizens) but it seems there are some interesting ones out there.

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by digger760
i read somehwere vh/vh in RTW was not the hardest...


That had been somewhat fixed in 1.2 and by player1 but hold true for unpatched version.

[Socrates]

THE GAME IS CHANGING !!!
[eek] [eek] [eek]

Go check the news at CFC, there is one new preview by Gamespot. I just read CFC's summary, and plan to check the preview and the interview tomorrow. (need fucking sleep)

Almost if not all the info is good news. I don't know about the combat system, but the rest looks promising. I'm a bit of a moron, and will post the summary here (bolding by me).


The game more about decision making and less about going through the established motions that have built up over the years.

Consider that you will no longer be able to transfer production from one project to another, a major exploit since time immemorial.

In Civ IV, when you lose a race to finish a wonder, you lose all the production made on it, and you can no longer transfer it to another project, though you will be refunded an amount of gold. (This rule also covers production of regular buildings and units as well, though in those cases, if you suddenly switch from producing, say, a settler to an archer, you simply save the production that's been made for the settler and start the archer from scratch. And when you go back to producing the settler, you'll pick up where you left off.)

Soren Johnson [lead designer] said that key resources are more evenly distributed in Civ IV, which is good news.

The bigger your city gets, the unhealthier it becomes. And that can take a toll on the population, as the city will eventually begin to starve. You can combat this by building certain types of buildings, such as aqueducts and hospitals, but what will really help is if you can secure access to the seven different types of food resources, which represent nutritional variety.

"The game is balanced now to have not as many cities. You can still spread your influence over a broad area, but not have as many cities, necessarily." - Barry Caudill [Senior Producer]

"In Civ IV, we have this sort of maintenance system that slowly pushes some pressure on civilizations that expand a little bit faster than what might be good for them at that time." - Soren Johnson
The focus in Civ IV is on fewer, but more specialized, cities.
This is something that the artificial intelligence will recognize, too, as computer-controlled civilizations won't spam you anymore with settlers, and if they try, they won't be able to cross your empire's borders anymore without your permission.

Barry Caudill also said that Civ IV has some features from Civ III that let you select a specific type of unit from a stack that you can then send to one location, reducing the need to repeat the procedure umpteen times over.

Stack Attack: You can actually stack up a bunch of units and send them someplace and give them an attack command. And if you're using combined arms...so you have some defensive-type units and you have a tank. The game will automatically look at who you're attacking, who their defenders are, and say, 'We should attack with this guy first. This is what the AI would do.

In Civ IV, the amount of damage a unit does to another unit is now out of a scale of 100, even though that's more or less hidden from the user. The amount of damage a unit does is relative to its different strengths. So now when a spearman attacks a tank, he may hit three times, but that's only going to take off a quarter of the tank's hit points. Meanwhile, a tank hitting a spearman only has to hit him once or twice, and he's gone entirely.

Dan McGarry (MP Designer) said that the server browser in the game will include buddy list functionality to keep track of your friends easier.

Firaxis will cull all sorts of statistics from multiplayer matches, which will let it rank players, which is aimed to avoid some of the frustration when you find yourself in a multiplayer match with ruthless Civ pros.

The game will also ship with a number of prebuilt scenarios with different sorts of victory conditions. For example, a World War II scenario will start you with all your cities and military units already built, and instead of conquering the whole world, you may have a more focused goal, such as taking or defending Paris.

Cottages (new terrain improvement) with smoke coming out of their chimneys indicate which neighboring terrain squares are being worked.

The quick game is very much for that one-night experience," Caudill explained. "We don't want it to feel like it's all compressed and jammed together. We want it to feel like you're playing Civ, but it just happens to take less time. So your tech costs are reduced, your unit production costs are reduced, your building costs are reduced. There are less turns to worry about, but you still have this huge sweep of time that happens in a Civ game. The epic speed is the same idea, just the opposite end.

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
... The bigger your city gets, the unhealthier it becomes. And that can take a toll on the population, as the city will eventually begin to starve. You can combat this by building certain types of buildings, such as aqueducts and hospitals ...

"The game is balanced now to have not as many cities. You can still spread your influence over a broad area, but not have as many cities, necessarily." - Barry Caudill [Senior Producer]

"In Civ IV, we have this sort of maintenance system that slowly pushes some pressure on civilizations that expand a little bit faster than what might be good for them at that time." - Soren Johnson
The focus in Civ IV is on fewer, but more specialized, cities.
This is something that the artificial intelligence will recognize, too, as computer-controlled civilizations won't spam you anymore with settlers, and if they try, they won't be able to cross your empire's borders anymore without your permission. ...


Bet they stole it from RTW. Not exactly stole but "borrowed". In RTW your expansion might be somewhat hampered by lack of generals and requirements to quell unrest for a few turn before moving forward. But there might always be a way to overcome this. Some dirty tricks and such.

[digger760]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov
In Civ IV, when you lose a race to finish a wonder, you lose all the production made on it, and you can no longer transfer it to another project, though you will be refunded an amount of gold. (This rule also covers production of regular buildings and units as well, though in those cases, if you suddenly switch from producing, say, a settler to an archer, you simply save the production that's been made for the settler and start the archer from scratch. And when you go back to producing the settler, you'll pick up where you left off.)[/red][/b]


I hope the AI can handle this, so that they all dont waste there production racing for the same wonder.

[Matrix]

Sweeet. http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/love.gif

[Beam]

A cure for a disease that does not exist in the first place. :( Agree with diggers concern.

[Shabbaman]

Gamespot article (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/preview_6129411.html).

Interesting about the video: at the lower level of detail the world isn't round. You can see the moment at which the world is drawn round when you zoom out.

[Socrates]

The bolding by myself is what freaked me out most. I have waited for this for so long ! :) Wonder cascade out, now to a real and fair competition... and there will still be losers.

Also great news from the multiplayer front, see for yourself :
"The fatal mistake with its previous efforts was that Firaxis designed a single-player game first, and then it tried to tack on multiplayer after the fact. For Civ IV, Firaxis went ahead and designed a multiplayer game first, which has paid off dividends for the single-player game. "We got all the rules set using the multiplayer engine, and then by using that, we learned what players would do. And that helped us write the AI," Briggs said."
Civ4 is a mutliplayer game first, from which the solo game evolved. [goodjob] I think we at CDZ should be grateful for that. At the least, the PBEM experience will be as good as it could ever be, and maybe the solo experience will benefit from that.
The pitboss engine looks interesting, I'll give it a look to see how it moves.

The combined armies look like a real challenge for yours sincerely, since I suck at using different types of units at the same time. Challenge is what I expect. Time to revisit the Age of Empires series, to practice combined armies ?

The new limit to expansionism (ie. have a huge number of cities) looks nice. It almost never costs you to expand more in previous Civ games, but now smaller but wealthier empires might be a real alternative. I remember the Babylonians in Civ1, they always had a few cities only... they were ahead of their time, really ! :D

Another thing to note is the incredible variety of resources and terrain improvements we'll have. I may have been wrong when I said "it will still be a Civ game at the core, grasslands will still give 2 food units and warriors will still need 10 shields to build" or something like that. Not that certain now. :)

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

A cure for a disease that does not exist in the first place. :( Agree with diggers concern.
I really think it's a great change! I mean, isn't it weird that in Civ3 can 'run out of wonders'? I.e. not being able to use your production for another wonder. It's actually weird you can use that production at all for something else.

Now you'll go for that wonder, and you make it or not. Makes it far more interesting. ;)

[digger760]

Yes but if the AI is'nt able to work out if it has a decent shot at a wonder, then the AI ends up wasting lots of shields for no reason, end results is an inferior AI

[digger760]

my understanding of that stack attack was that the AI would determine the order that units attack from a stack. That would makes sense as far as Firaxix goal of simplyfying ans speeding up gameplay. Currently the AI picks out who defends in a stack civ3.

I would imagine that this could be configurable via scripts, ie ie artileery fires first, then highest attack value next. But how configurable will it be. Example, if all artillery fires first, will the AI know to stop using artillery for a redlined defensive stack, or will it waste the shots on the red-lines stack anyways. There are so many choices in this situation that depend on play style i dont see AI controlled "stack attack" as being a useful feature for all the micro-managers out there.

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by digger760

Yes but if the AI is'nt able to work out if it has a decent shot at a wonder, then the AI ends up wasting lots of shields for no reason, end results is an inferior AI
There's no reason to fear nor trust the AI won't do anything stupid. For all we know they might give the AI foreknowledge about wonders and not let them build any wonder when they don't have a chance. That's the other way around.

But ok, I do agree it's the typical thing an AI would fail at. http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/undecided.gif

[Shabbaman]

Some new screens over at gamespy (http://media.pc.gamespy.com/media/620/620513/imgs_1.html). Looks like Elvis is back from civ2.

[Socrates]

Saw them yesterday at CFC, and I'm disappointed, but not too much. Disappointed because they look like graphics for the James Bond game on Nintendo 64 (old), but fortunately they're just game arts.

Man, I'm staring at these pictures I posted last year in the 1st post (that you see just above the reply area when you... reply) ; glad to see we were right : they're totally something else as of today. [goodjob]

[Matrix]

Elvis has never been gone. ;)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74725

[Shabbaman]

Didn't know that, nice :D

[grahamiam]

some more pics, even some of the later game and good pics of game mechanics (city screens, trading, late game builds ("Rock'n'Roll" and "Space Elevator" [eek] etc) from Prodigious Gaming. link is from CFC but I'd thought I'd add it here for people who don't browse thru that forum too much.

http://www.pro-g.co.uk/media/screens/159/0/page1/

[Beam]

First time I see a city screen. Both familiar and different. As long as there are sliders, detailed stats and citizens to be moved around micromanaging isn't gone imo. :)

[Matrix]

If there's one thing I could miss like toothache [mischief], it's micromanagement. The only thing that adds to the game is boredom.

And it's really easy to counter: just let the surplus hammers/food/beakers left in queue for the next production/growth/science.

[ProPain]

mmm, seems they 'improved' the graphics a lot. Leaderheads look butt ugly imo and that whole 3D thingie just doesnt do it for me. Just hope they didnt sacrifice too much gameplay improvement time for that :)

[Shabbaman]

Micromanagement means to me something along the lines like "wow I just spent 15 minutes staring at my computer screen, this is what seperates me from the masses!". Unfortunately I'm too lazy to keep it up for the whole game.
I doubt if they found a way to let the game MM itself. I guess this means that you simply cannot MM anymore, not that it's not necessary anymore.

I'm still positive about the graphics. I know it looks ugly, but pirates2 looks great so this one should too. Just wait until you've seen it in RL!

[digger760]

notice in the city screen, top right hand corner, what looks to be 3 cites and a trade value associat3ed with each. Does that mean they brought back the caravan? I remember from Civ1 and 2 days that distracted me from war for most of the middle ages, I spent half the game setting up trade route

[ERIKK]

Yeah, I think they are trade routes to other cities!

The city looks are old fashioned but that is probably the way they want it to be.

[Socrates]

Gamespot has 38 new screens from their SP game, and have written a 3-page preview about it. Sounds nice, well, it is exciting to say the least. :)

[grahamiam]

hmm, take note of the tech screen. Polythesiem (Budism?) leads to Monothesiem (Jewish) religons. Looks like whoever gets Poly 1st, could have 2 holy cities early in the game (1st civ to "discover" a religion gets to name/or is assigned one of thier cities as a "Holy City" for that religion). Wonder how that will effect gameplay? I understand that Holy Cities will draw income away from other civs that adopt that religion.

[Shabbaman]

Good observation.

[ERIKK]

If you have th holy city your civ gets the line of sight of all the cities having that religion.... You can have quite a good overview if lots of civs have 'your' religion! ;)

[Matrix]

They have removed that feature a while ago, ERIKK.

[Col.Tarleton]

I've just ordered it from Amazon.£25 and free postage but it looks like I won't get it untill the 1st november.

[ERIKK]

quote:Originally posted by Matrix

They have removed that feature a while ago, ERIKK.
OK, I did not know that, CFC shouldupdate their articles. I read it at the CFC main Civ4 page.

[Shabbaman]

So now we know the complete tech tree *clickety* (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/techtree/). Apparently the freedom with which you can research is a bit exaggerated. No more "ages" leads to a lot less choke points.

[grs]

Hmm...not sure I should order it. I miss the minimum system requirements by some MHz. and my graphics card is only an old Creative GeForcePro :(

[digger760]

What are the minimum requirements? i've done a bit of a search for it and could'nt find them.

[ERIKK]

It's in the civfanatics Civ4 pre-release document.

minimum: 1ghz processor, 32mb graph/video, 256 or 512mb RAM (dunno for sure).

[digger760]

ahh! great looks like i wont be needing to upgrade then, unlike when civ3 came out and all i had was the original Pentium running at 200Mhz

[Shabbaman]

OK,

I copied this from the front page of that other site, but it looks like good stuff for a discussion:

quote:Aggressive: Free promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of barracks and dry dock.
Creative: +2 culture per city. Double production speed of theater, coliseum.
Expansive: +2 health per city. Double production speed of granary and harbor.
Financial: +1 gold on plots with 2 gold. Double production speed of bank.
Industrious: Wonder production increased 50 percent. Double production speed of forge.
Organized: Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent. Double production speed of lighthouse and courthouse.
Philosophical: Birth rate increased 100 percent. Double production speed of university.
Spiritual: No anarchy. Double production speed of the temple.

They link to a new article on leaders on gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/preview_6134343.html), which lists all leaders and their traits.
On the traits: industious looks BROKEN!

[Mistfit]

quote:Philosophical: Birth rate increased 100 percent. Double production speed of university.
Do Philosophical people breed more?

[Tubby Rower]

Just read an article @ EBGames (original was apparently from Gamespot) but it was dated 9/16
quote:Civilization IV Hands-On - Multiplayer

A multiplayer Civ game that works? That's what we thought, too, until we flew to Firaxis to actually play the game head-to-head.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Despite the hopes of many, the words "Civ" and "multiplayer" have never really clicked together. Ever since Civilization in 1991, fans have wanted to play against others in the great race to see who could guide their primitive civilization through history. That dream sort of became a reality with Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold in 1998. However, players quickly discovered that translating an epic, single-player, turn-based strategy game into a multiplayer affair wasn't as easy as hoped. Simply put, it took a very long time to play a multiplayer game. Meanwhile, things didn't get any better with 2001's Civilization III. First, multiplayer was stripped out of the core game to make sure it shipped on time. Then a broken version of multiplayer shipped with the Play the World expansion, and it didn't get fixed until the Conquests expansion a year later. So, yeah, you can probably see why multiplayer Civ remains an elusive dream to this day.


That is, until now. We recently flew to Firaxis' Maryland offices to participate in some multiplayer matches of Civilization IV, the upcoming chapter in the storied franchise. In the span of only a few hours, we played two multiplayer games of Civ, an impressive feat considering a single-player game of Civ can easily take upward of 10 hours or more. And, yes, both games were exciting and nail-biting affairs that came down to the finish to determine which side would win. How was this possible? Read on.

The first thing to keep in mind with Civ IV is that it represents a whole new chapter in the franchise in many ways. Not only does Civ IV rewrite many of the underlying rules of the series, but also it represents a new approach to creating a Civ game. Previous Civs were all designed as single-player games, with multiplayer modes uneasily tacked on to them, which was why they didn't work as multiplayer games. Determined to create a multiplayer Civ experience that not only worked but also was fun and fast to play, the designers went about creating the multiplayer game first for Civ IV. This let them not only get an early jump on play testing, but also it let them experiment and build new types of modes never before seen in a Civ game.

To make a multiplayer experience that works, Firaxis has taken several approaches. The traditional Stone Age-to-Space Age game now has an innovative, persistent server mode--called pit boss--that should let a group of players play the epic-length game at its leisure. However, we didn't get a chance to test out the pit boss or the epic-length game in multiplayer. We played one of the multiplayer modes which is specifically designed for fast-paced play--it was actually limited to 100 turns. And despite the fact that it limits you to the early eras of the game (basically the Stone Age to the Bronze Age), it's an amazingly effective mode. You know that you don't have a lot of time to waste, so the early-game emphasis is on expansion and conquest rather than defensive "turtling" for the long haul, which might occur in an epic-length contest.

We played in teams of two against each another, and this afforded us a chance to explore the new team dynamics. Basically, when you're teamed with another player, you get to share everything, from great wonder effects and resources, to research. For example, you share line-of-sight information with your teammate, so you can see what he or she sees. When you research a technology, you can choose to research the same technology together (thus cutting the research time in half), or you can have one person handle, say, all military technologies while you handle the economic technologies. And, of course, you can come to each other's aid during war. Unfortunately, we came to this realization too late in the first game, when we failed to expand our empire quickly enough and the opposing team threw wave after wave of units at us, isolating and whittling down our defenses. We did, however, learn some valuable lessons about combat.


In Civ IV, your best city defense unit early on isn't the spearmen unit, like it has been in every other Civ game to date, it's the archer unit. Spearmen are only really useful against cavalry in Civ IV. Meanwhile, warriors occupy the bottom-most rung of the military ladder, like they have in previous Civs. Warriors do have an important role, though, especially in the dangerous new world of Civ IV. That's because in addition to roving bands of barbarians, there's a new threat to keep in mind: wild animals. The Stone Age was a dangerous place for man, as wolves, lions, bears, and more roamed the land. The presence of these beasts in Civ IV means that sending out any unescorted settlers or workers can be a very dangerous proposition, especially since the animals seem to home in on easy prey. Thankfully, you can group a warrior with a worker or a settler, thus ensuring that the worker or settler is protected. The need to build escorts for each of your civilian units alone will drastically slow your rate of expansion, as you can't afford the risk of sending out droves of unprotected settlers and workers.


The Best Defense Is a Good... You'll also definitely want to send out some warriors on their own to explore the land and to attack targets of opportunity, which is very important. Lead designer and programmer Soren Johnson explained that you get more experience for attacking, and less for defending, so it's worthwhile to send out warriors early on to have them attack packs of wild animals. That's because you can upgrade your military units in Civ IV when they gain experience levels. Basically, once a unit is promoted, you'll be alerted that you can upgrade it by selecting a bonus. You may upgrade its unit strength (making it tougher to kill), you may increase its city defense strength, you may improve its combat strength when fighting in woods or hills, and more. This way, you can create highly specialized units, such as elite city defenders. Or on the flip side, you can create elite city attackers. You'll also have a reason to want to preserve that unit for as long as possible. The wise leader is the one who manages to keep his or her elite units alive, as they're far more valuable than green units.


The ultimate key to survival in Civ multiplayer, though, is expansion, which makes sense. If you have three cities, and your opponent has six cities, you're in obvious trouble. Simply put, you need to build up a larger empire than your rivals so you can generate a larger economy, which helps you not only create a larger army, but also lets you research up the technology tree faster, letting you unlock some potentially decisive technologies.

For example, during our second multiplayer game, we were also caught on the defensive early on, but we managed to hold on by building up archer units. It wasn't until the enemy researched new technologies and unlocked new units that we were finally overwhelmed. Yet on the flip side, it's far more difficult to expand your empire in Civ IV as quickly as you did in earlier Civ games. That's because the expansionism strategy of previous Civs, where you tried to build as many cities as possible as quickly as you could, has taken a hit in Civ IV. There are many more pressures on you at the beginning of the game, and it can be unwise, as well as downright difficult, to expand too rapidly. What you need to do is balance your priorities between expansion, research, building military units, and improving your core cities. Build too many cities too quickly and you'll have a lot of vulnerable cities to defend. But if you wait too long, the enemy will get the jump on you.

It's also important to read the terrain carefully. Mountains are no longer passable by land units, which should be taken into account. Key and secondary resources are scattered over the map, which could make building a city by them worth it, if for no other reason than to deny those same resources to the enemy. Defensible positions, such as rivers and hills, should be exploited, as they grant defensive bonuses to cities. Make sure workers construct roads so you can rapidly shift forces around your empire. Also, make sure to station units so you have line of sight in a defensive line, because one nasty tactic that we discovered is that human opponents can and will try to do an end around, sending military units to sneak around your borders, only to reappear at the gates of one of your vulnerable cities in the rear. Or instead they'll simply cut a road linking you to a critical resource, thus crippling your ability to construct advanced military units.


This is all common sense, of course, but it's proof that Civ IV works as a multiplayer game. You'll be caught up in the strategy of the game from the get-go, trying to work with your allies while desperately trying to outthink and outplay the opposition. Moreover, this short multiplayer game feels like an excellent mode for LAN games, for when you and your friends are hanging out together. There's a built-in, adjustable timer that ensures the game keeps moving forward--so you don't have to wait forever for someone to finish his or her turn.

Of course, we'll have to wait and see how the rest of Civ IV's multiplayer turns out. In particular, we'll have to wait and see what that ambitious pit boss mode will be like. But at this point, things are looking up for Civ multiplayer in a way it hasn't before. The short multiplayer can be ruthless and cutthroat, which is exactly what you want in a multiplayer strategy game. Civ IV's release date has moved forward a few weeks, so we can now expect the game to ship somewhere around the end of October or at the beginning of November.


-- By Jason Ocampo, GameSpot

[akots]

Just to let everyone know. If you apply for an Amazon visa, you can get an instant $20 discount on Civ4 and free shipping as well at Amazon. Not sure it would work outside of USA though. Must confess, I could not pass the bargain and preordered it. So much for my whinning... Guess, curiosity is stronger.

[Socrates]

[lol] [lol] [lol] Weren't you one to say that you would wait for 3 or 6 months to see how it goes and to wait for a playable version before diving into Civ4 ?

WE GOT YOU !!! [evil]

[akots]

Sure, you got me here. But. I got the game for $30 exactly. ;)

If I go through the local stores or even look for used stuff in Januray/February/March it is not going to be cheaper.

And getting it does not mean playing it on a regular basis. I'm just damn curious of what the bugs did they manage to put in the game this time. [lol]

[Shabbaman]

Good news for beam and those others afraid of firaxis extorting us more dough for the pitboss servers: it's free!

The following quote is from that other site's front page (yes, too lazy to search for the original quote on the forums):

quote:As for Pitboss, Soren Johnson commented on the forum that it allows players to run their own Pitboss servers, and it's not something Firaxis can charge money for.

[Beam]

[cool]

[Socrates]

I demand a CDZ PitBoss server right now !!! :( anarreeeeeeeeees !!! [tongue]

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

I demand a CDZ PitBoss server right now !!! :( anarreeeeeeeeees !!! [tongue]


krys, where can the SW for PTBS be downloaded?

[Socrates]

What is a SW ?

Anyway, wasn't PitBoss delayed until December or January ? I guess there will a place to download it from by then (civ4.com or something). But I smell that a site like CDZ will be very glad to have its PitBoss server. Imagine a TurnTracker like Matrix's, but 10 times more powerful and free ! [thumbsup] Maybe Matrix's TT is the cause of this ? [cool]

[Beam]

SW = software N00b. [rant]

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

SW = software N00b. [rant]

I guess the "exception culturelle française" got me this time. [mischief] I would name that "prog" or "exe"... I'll make sure it doesn't come up again, Beam. ;)



































































































N00b yourself, meh ! [assw]

[romeothemonk]

Looking at the trait descriptions posted by shabba, industrious does appear broken. This is however based on the assumption that the gameplay will be relatively similar to the previous incarnations of civ.
But based on first guess, I would say that philo/industrious (America?) would be downright evil in the hands of a compotent human.
Also if AW is played similarly to C3C, aggressive suddenly becomes really potent.
As always, we need to see the finished product, but I would put money on the first civ that I play being philo and or industrious.

[Shabbaman]

IIRC health is the most limiting factor in population growth. Now it's hard to quantify at this point how much impact "+2 health" will have, but solely looking at the 50% discount on granaries I place my bet on expansionist. The industrious expansionist leader is Bismarck of ze germans... But they have a late UU. Not as late as the americans though.

[Beam]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

quote:Originally posted by Beam

SW = software N00b. [rant]

I guess the "exception culturelle française" got me this time. [mischief] I would name that "prog" or "exe"... I'll make sure it doesn't come up again, Beam. ;)

[lol]



































































































N00b yourself, meh ! [assw]

[Shabbaman]

This is no spam thread, my children [whipped]

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

This is no spam thread, my children [whipped]

'Tis my thread here, you spammer ! ;) Go moderate the threads in the ISDG forum ! [tongue]

Beam, your [lol] smiley is inside the quote of myself, that is strange. I don't want to have nightmares tonight because of that. [scared2]

Hey, I found a DrA smiley : [cookiem]
and also a Meli smiley : [meli]
and also a col smiley : [col]
and also a Matrix smiley : [doomsol]

[Shabbaman]

STFU n00b!

This forum is big enough to spam less serious threads. Besides, the ISDG threads are BORING, nothing to moderate there.

There's a civ preview on IGN previewing the malinese (http://pc.ign.com/articles/654/654463p1.html). Not much in it, aside from the fact that their great leader Mansa Munsa lived from 1312 - 1337 [lol]

[Matrix]

What about this screenshot (http://civilization4.net/files/gallery/previews/markg/pm-2-customgame.jpg)? (From Apolyton's own preview.) See that list of options? Very interesting!

- No city razing (nice)
- No city flipping from culture [shrug]
- City flipping after conquest (?)
- No barbarians
- Raging barbarians
- Aggressive AI
- Random personalities
- No technology trading (that would seem boring)
- Permanent alliance (between whom?)
- Always war (good)
- Always peace (freaky)
- One-City Challenge (again: good)
- Permanent war or peace (?)

[Ville]

YAY! [goodjob]

[grahamiam]

let me apologize, in advance, for any slowdowns in my c3c pbem's or sg's after Oct 24th :D

[Socrates]

I don't particularly like the tons of options for a game. It feels like Firaxis doesn't know what is best for the game, and it will be more difficult to compare games like that (the no tech trade option comes to mind). But I hope that a set of options will be accepted by the standard one amongst the Civ community (in Civ3 a lot of options were straightforward : yes to culture flipping, no to cultural links, etc...).

[Matrix]

I wouldn't worry about that for exactly that reason, krys. ;)

[Beam]

Civilizations: 5.0

Does that mean we could have 4.9 civilizations? Or 3.14 or 6.9? [scratch]

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by Matrix

I wouldn't worry about that for exactly that reason, krys. ;)

Well, I like my games to be compatible in a way with other games played by other people. I don't like the sound of everyone playing his own little mod. That's why I'll probably play competition games rather soon in SP. Don't expect to see my face in CFC's GOTM though. ;)

Noted that, Beam ! [lol] I want 'e' civs (2.718), it would be exponential.

[akots]

The official civ4 website is up: www.civ4.com

Rather cool one, I like it, movies and stuff.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Matrix


- No technology trading



:(
Are you serious?
Why would they take tech trading out? :(

What could possibly be the reasoning behind being able to trade all resouces, but no tech? [???] Doesn't seem very realistic to me...


EDIT: Thank god it's only optional... [crazyeye]

[Matrix]

CivFanatics has a review of it's own now, and I must say it's a very interesting one! Although it has 0.0% critics in it...

[Shabbaman]

A review without criticism is little more than a lenngthy advertisement. The difference betwee Top Gear and "Stapel op auto's" (read: any other car program (but this one has a Stapel in it ;) ).

[Shabbaman]

Another review (http://www.gamespy.com/articles/658/658349p1.html) ;)

[ERIKK]

quite funny: http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=3279

[Shabbaman]

I just read they included my signature again [worship]

[Matrix]

There's a multiplayer 'hands-on' preview at CFC, from Chieftess. It's not as good as the article of the 16-year old civrules, but it does give us some interesting insight, although it's not about PBEM...

[grahamiam]

based on the screenies, it seems that sullla is a tester again. wonder if they made him sign an extra-strong nda [lol]

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

based on the screenies, it seems that sullla is a tester again. wonder if they made him sign an extra-strong nda [lol]

:D

BTW, Civ4 has gone gold, it is official. :) Shit, I must find a job before it ships here... [mischief]

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

based on the screenies, it seems that sullla is a tester again. wonder if they made him sign an extra-strong nda [lol]
Really? That would surprise me very much. What makes you think he's tester again?

[grahamiam]

his name is on the bottom 2 screens in Chieftess' preview. click on them and look in the bottom right corner for the names of all the players.

[Shabbaman]

First review on IGN (http://pc.ign.com/articles/660/660495p1.html)!

EDIT: I'm reading this, pasting some interesting tidbits here.

The review starts with some lines about how great the game is. My eye moves to the right and catches the rating: 9,4! That's the second highest rating ever, on par with games like GTA vice city, UT2004 and Half Life. Only HL2 got a higher mark. Promising...

On promotions:

quote:Believe me, you'll think twice before you send your amphibious assaulting cavalry who have a 25% bonus against melee units against an enemy's island stronghold. Still, they're the best unit for the job, so...

Bye bye one tile GCA island sanctuary :D

quote:The Secretary General then gets the chance to propose new resolutions each turn. These resolutions would open up new trade, ban nuclear units, or force all the civs in the game to adopt certain civic options.

Wow, the UN can force everyone into anarchy! I bet Anarres is very happy with this [goodjob]

[Beam]

Promising! :)

[CanuckSoldier]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

based on the screenies, it seems that sullla is a tester again. wonder if they made him sign an extra-strong nda [lol]


lmao....yes I do remember Sulla's web page during the C3C beta.

And btw, I'l be glad to post some "nuts and bolts" details of how to setup a PBEM game on tuesday night.

CS

[Beam]

Sulla started a 7-piece walkthrough on his own website. Good read and it shows a lot of game mechanics are quite different from what we are familiar with. :)

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/civ4_walk_1.html

[Shabbaman]

Thanks for the link Beam, should be a very good read! If only they'd start shipping the game, I could be playing it really soon (and since I'm fed up with work I really really really need a good reason to take some time off... like civ4)...

BTW, I'm already amazed by this:

quote:nd while the Combat I line of promotions is never a bad option, I'll get more benefit by taking Woodsman I and then going on to take Woodsman II, which will grant my warrior 2 movement in forest and jungle tiles.


[mouth]

[grahamiam]

curious why Matrix moved it to the "other civ sites" forum. thought it would be better under the strategy forum, just like CT's thread when C3C 1st came out. it's definitely an eye-opener, and will be very helpful for my 1st game tomorrow night :)

[ERIKK]

Sulla's story is a fun and very informative reader!!! :)

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

curious why Matrix moved it to the "other civ sites" forum. thought it would be better under the strategy forum, just like CT's thread when C3C 1st came out. it's definitely an eye-opener, and will be very helpful for my 1st game tomorrow night :)
Mismanagement. [sad]
I thought the Civ3 mods always moved threads where people promote their own site to there, and since I was the only one online...
But Padma rapped my knuckles. http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/spank.gif

[Socrates]

I would have ignored it (well, read it ! ;) ), and let another mod decide instead. And no mod to see I was the only one online and not taking decisions... [groucho]

[Shabbaman]

I'm reading the third part of Sullá's walkthrough. Looks like the game has some depth! Limiting specialist by making it dependable on what kind of buildings you have in that city seems solid to me. Can't wait to play (but no time and no game so far...)!

The guy still has only 4 cities btw!

[yndy]

I wonder which game speed he is playing on, normal, quick or Epic? It goes pretty slow with the development, in Civ3 terms.

[Markstar]

What I find really cool is that while loading a new game, the old theme from Civilization (1) is played. [music]

Didn't get much further so far, but it seems the graphics do get in the way as I have feared (when zooming out you can't differentiate which unit belongs to whom, animations get in the way of moving units). [sad]

[Whomp]

The impression I'm getting from Sullla's walkthrough and Sirian/Sullla's Cuban isolationist SG is religion is the early research path. The new "growth is power" seems to be religion.

[grahamiam]

i'm pretty sure it's very flexible. I did just fine ignoring religon altogether at noble and emphasizing commerce and research, though not as well as them, but they have head start ;) I have a feeling noble is too low, but I'll stick it out till the game is done as there's a ton of new concepts to learn/forget/etc

[Matrix]

This is the best news I've heard so far! http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/jump.gif
quote:Removing unnecessary micromanagement from the game was a high-level design goal for Civ IV, one which paid off huge dividends in the final product. We systematically looked at every piece of micromanagement from which Civ 1-3 suffered and figured out ways to remove it without altering the underlying game dynamic. Pollution was removed in favor of a high-level health system. Beaker and hammer overflow was introduced to end the incentive for min-maxing your citizens each and every turn. City riots were simply turned into angry citizens to take away the need to continually check on your cities' happiness in case something went wrong. Workers now have two moves so that a move and an order can be given on the same turn -reducing the number of times the player deals with an active worker by half. Also, some high-level controls to allow micromanagement were added. For example, workers can be grouped together and given an infinite number of sequential orders. Multiple cities can be selected at a time, allowing the player to change all cities on one continent to build tanks with just two clicks.

[Darkness]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

Sulla started a 7-piece walkthrough on his own website. Good read and it shows a lot of game mechanics are quite different from what we are familiar with. :)

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/civ4_walk_1.html


Is it just me, or doesn't this link work anymore?? [???]

[Kemal]

Correct, it is because the host he used simply couldn't handle the insane amount of traffic his website generated. A case of the walkthrough just being too popular, I suppose. [eek]

[Ginger_Ale]

Yeah, it got up to 100 GB of traffic, and when he switched to a new host, that got 20 GBs in 12 hours! [eek]

Glad I read it when I did...