Worker Turns

[digger760]

This is for my own reference really...but other people might find it useful

I have based from KayEss's worker turns article on CFC,
EDIT: removed part about guess work

Base Worker Turns (BWT) for worker actions are as follows
Job BWT
Build road 6
Irrigate 8
Mine 12
Fortress 16
Barricade 16
Railroad 12
Plant forest 18
Clear forest 4
Clear wetlands 16
Clear damage 24

A non-industrious civ can perform 2 BWT per game turn
An industrious civ can perform 3 BWT per game turn
A non-industrious slave works a 1 BWT per turn
An industrious slave works a 2 BWT per turn*

Other Bonus
Anarchy – work half speed**
Democracy – work at 1½ times speed.
Fascism – work at double speed.
Replaceable parts – doubles worker speed.

* An industrious slave works at 1BWT unless the government is democratic or has discovered Replacable parts (not sure if just discovery of democracy is required or the gov has to be in power to apply)
** Slaves and Workers seem to work at 1BWT whilst in Anarchy, until the discovery of Replaceable parts. After which they work at 1/2 the BWT described above whilst in Anarchy. Although due to the numbers and rounding in the equation below. This means slaves always end up at 1BWT during Anarchy. Workers fare up a bit better.

The actual number of turns =
roundup((Tile Movement Penalty * BWT )/ rounddown(WorkerSpeed * Bonuses))


eg...an industrious, facist worker with replacable parts building a road on a mountain

Move Penalty = 3
BWT = 6
WorkerSpeed = 3 * 2(facist) * 2(replaceble parts) = 12

thus it should take (3*6)/12 = 1.5 turns to build a road on a mountain...which will be rounded to 2 :(

EDIT: Updated for industrious slave bug, Update for the effect of post replacable parts on worker speed during anarchy

digger760

[anarres]

heh, I noticed somone multiplied all the BWT by 2 so that you don't have fractions of BWT's, but they got the BWT's-per-worker numbers wrong.

First half all the BWT numbers (to their correct values).
Now use this:
A non-industrious civ can perform 1 BWT per game turn
An industrious civ can perform 1.75 BWT per game turn *
A non-industrious slave works a 0.5 BWT per turn
An industrious slave works a 0.5 BWT per turn **

Also x2 all of these when Rep Parts is known (also see below for industrious slave behaviour with Rep Parts).

* Prior to C3C this value was 2 BWT
** An industrious civ's slave workers in Civ3 (prior to 1.27) and C3C (all versions) have a value of 0.5 (incorrectly - this is a known bug). However, when you have replacable parts this value becomes 2 for Civ3, and 1.75 for C3C (the proper industrious slave cost, x2 for Rep Parts). Most annoyingly this bug was fixed in PTW, but reintroduced for C3C

Check numbers with this, they should all check out.

[Kemal]

Are you sure these numbers are correct digger?

Iirc, industrious slave workers are not as fast as non-industrious regulars, because the 50% bonus is rounded down... so that would mean if a non-indus, regular worker = 1 worker turn, a slave is 0.5, and an industrious slave is 0.7, since the 0.75 gets rounded down. Therefore, you need 5 slaves (industrious) to get a road done in 1 turn without any other bonuses, and only 3 regular workers without any other bonuses.
As a matter of fact, you'd also only need 6 regular slave workers, which makes industrious slaves only a tiny bit more competent than their non-industrious counterparts.

I'm not really an expert though on worker figures, these numbers come from my own (sp) experiences...

Btw, shouldn't there also be a clear jungle in the worker actions, for 24 turns? :)

edit: looks like anarres beat me to it. ;)

[Kemal]

Wow, I didn't know about those pre-rep parts slaves anar, great info! :)

But about the industrious civ's speed, isn't it toned down to a 50% increase compared to a regular civ...? Or am I wrong here again?

My industrious regular workers seems to be chopping jungles at 16 turns... so that would seem to suggest he works 50% faster no?

[anarres]

In the beta the industrious civ was definitely 1.75 BWT for most of the testing. I guess they turned it down to 1.5, which I find quite worrying. [ponder]

Also, I checked the editor to find this value but I can't see it. OTOH I did see the "base worker turns" for actions, and indeed in the editor they are x2 of what I've said (this must have been so they could keep integer arithmetic pre-C3C, with all workers using whole BWT's).

Based on this my earlier post should read:

A non-industrious civ can perform 2 BWT per game turn
An industrious civ can perform 3 BWT per game turn *
A non-industrious slave works a 1 BWT per turn
An industrious slave works a 1 BWT per turn **

Also x2 all of these when Rep Parts is known (also see below for industrious slave behaviour with Rep Parts).

* Prior to C3C this value was 4 BWT
** An industrious civ's slave workers in Civ3 (prior to 1.27) and C3C (all versions) have a value of 1 (incorrectly - this is a known bug). However, when you have replacable parts this value becomes 4 for Civ3, and 3 for C3C (the proper industrious slave cost, x2 for Rep Parts). Most annoyingly this bug was fixed in PTW, but reintroduced for C3C.

[anarres]

Also, all workers act as slaves in anarchy, and workers BTW values get x1.5 for democracy and x2 for fascism.

Note that the editor has double the values I just quoted for government types, so that just means they have another x0.5 modifier in there to make them nice integers.

digger - I looked at your example and it is correct! 1.5 turns is exactly right, which gets rounded to 2. Of course if it was just a republic and also not industrious you can factor them out:
1.5 x 1.5(indus) x 2(gov type) = 4.5 turns.

Now if you factor out rep parts you get 4.5 x 2 = 9 turns, which is what you expect, so the numbers all make sense. :)

[digger760]

The BWT are straight out of the Editor..there is no clear jungle in there either..i guess it is the same clear wetlands.

[digger760]

I guessed the part about industrious slaves.

my BWT per tile and BWT-per-worker are all doubled so as to avoid fractions...basically it all cancels out at the end :)

[Socrates]

And there you see why Maya is currently not a good civ : the industrious trait is already well toned down from Vanilla/PTW, and their slaves (mostly captured by Javelin throwers) are just regular slaves, wasting the industrious trait part of their special ability. That's why Mayans still have to build many workers... wasting their agricultural trait instead. [cry] Well, CFC should cry, not me ! :D

[akots]

I was personally more impressed with peculiar comparison of the starting locations. And I would also advise the IDG-2 mapmaker not to show up in RL around CFC team members. The said person will be probably severealy beaten and very likely will die because of injuries inflicted by him on his own self. That is indeed a very minor factor compared to workers. I would sell at least 5 workers for a wheat or cow on start, so wheat+cow cost probably 15-20 workers around 10AD. I'm puzzled how come that CFC team is still alive.

I hope I have not disclosed any relevant important information regarding IDG-2 here.

[anarres]

akots - at least know that in the long arguments about the map before the ISDG2 started, CDZ campaigned for quite some time to have a fully balanced map. Unfortunately most teams voted to have a map with "minimal interference", which meant all the map makers could do was generate 15 maps and pick the best one, maybe moving a start a tile or two.

I can't even remember now which way CFC or any other team voted, just that we tried and failed to get a well balanced map. :(

[Grille]

quote:Originally posted by digger760

The BWT are straight out of the Editor..there is no clear jungle in there either..i guess it is the same clear wetlands.

yeah, it's called "wetlands" in the editor (BWT=16) and jungle or marsh in the game [crazyeye]
IIRC for the job 'clear', the editor values for "wetlands" relate 1:1 to marsh and 1:1,5 to jungle.

[akots]

@Anarres: It would be nice if IDG-3 or IDG-2 finals are hosted by CDZ instead of CDG. And some issues cannot be decided by vote. This just gives ridiculous results. Especially certain important issues like map balance. Alas, little can be done about it now.

[digger760]

So to put things back on topic:

I am not to sure of the slave values at all..KayEss has not included this in his analysis.

Another Open Issue for me:
Does a non-industrious worker become and industrious slave (when captured by and Ind civ)
Or Does an industrious worker remain an industrious slave (when capture by non-Ind civ)

[anarres]

The first of the two options is correct, the second isn't. :)

[digger760]

quote:Originally posted by Kemal
Btw, shouldn't there also be a clear jungle in the worker actions, for 24 turns? :)


Clear Jungle and Clear wetlands has the same BWT..the difference in clearing them comes down to the tile movement cost

marsh MoveCost = 2
jungle MoveCost = 3
BWT for jungle and wetlands = 16
That equations again: Turns = (TileMoveCost x BWT)/ WorkerSpeed

Example - non-indus -> WorkerSpeed = 2
Clear Marsh Turns = (2x16)/2 = 16 turns
Clear Jungle Turms = (3x16)/2 = 24 turns

Example - Indus -> WorkerSpeed = 3
Clear Marsh Turns = (2x16)/3 = 10.6 -> 11 turns
Clear Jungle Turms = (3x16)/3 = 16 turns

EDIT: no gov or tech bonuse taken into consideration. I'll get to that later

[digger760]

Checked for industrious slaves..seems there WorkerSpeed is 1 at the start of the game (i'll check replacable parts later and goverment factors later.

So the industrious trait is not passed onto slaves at the start of the game.

[digger760]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

Also, all workers act as slaves in anarchy

Although i need to confirm it..KayEss report has workers working at half Speed in Anarchy..i would expect industrious worker to still work faster than an non-industrious worker...I wonder if the same penalty applies to slaves i.e

Anarchy Worker Speed:
Industrious Worker = 1.5
Non Indus Worker = 1
Slaves = 0.5

[anarres]

Slave workers do NOT work slower in anarchy!!! (110% sure about this)

Also, IIRC indus workers do NOT get the bonus in anarchy! I could be wrong here - last time I was indus was in PTW.

Crazy shit, but I think they've hardcoded the BWT for workers to 1 in anarchy, regardless of anything else. [crazyeye]

[digger760]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

Slave workers do NOT work slower in anarchy!!! (110% sure about this)

Also, IIRC indus workers do NOT get the bonus in anarchy! I could be wrong here - last time I was indus was in PTW.

Crazy shit, but I think they've hardcoded the BWT for workers to 1 in anarchy, regardless of anything else. [crazyeye]




I think we have mixed up on the terminology

BWT is the base worker turns for worker actions and is applied to actions on specific tiles

I think you meant WorkerSpeed to be 1 during anarchy for both indus and non-indus. (well thats my terminology anyways)

Regardless I intend to double check this (and the governmetn and tech influence as well) as i want the first post to be a complete summary for later reference. Once i have confirmed everything I'll update it.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

last time I was indus was in PTW

Just a big : LOL. Ah, the good old days of being industrious... This trait is even mediocre now, really. Agricultural is better anytime, commercial is just powerful too, seafearing rules apart on pangea, militaristic was beefed up with the new armies but toned down with the SGLs "replacing" the MGLs for wonders but is nice on pangea, scientific was beefed up and could even be really good with working SGLs, religious is not so strong, and expansionnist is just expansionnist.

All in all, the industrious trait belongs to the 4 weakest traits in any given game. :( Mayans, great Mayans, you are C3C's utter contradiction... [crazyeye]

[anarres]

Just replace the BWT with "WorkerSpeed" then diggger - the post is correct about anarchy slaves, and I think is also correct about industrial workers (I'm almost certain that's how it was in PTW).

[Grille]

quote:Originally posted by digger760

quote:Originally posted by Kemal
Btw, shouldn't there also be a clear jungle in the worker actions, for 24 turns? :)


Clear Jungle and Clear wetlands has the same BWT..the difference in clearing them comes down to the tile movement cost

marsh MoveCost = 2
jungle MoveCost = 3
BWT for jungle and wetlands = 16
That equations again: Turns = (TileMoveCost x BWT)/ WorkerSpeed

Example - non-indus -> WorkerSpeed = 2
Clear Marsh Turns = (2x16)/2 = 16 turns
Clear Jungle Turms = (3x16)/2 = 24 turns

Example - Indus -> WorkerSpeed = 3
Clear Marsh Turns = (2x16)/3 = 10.6 -> 11 turns
Clear Jungle Turms = (3x16)/3 = 16 turns

EDIT: no gov or tech bonuse taken into consideration. I'll get to that later


you made my day.:)
d'oh, I thought marshes consume 3MPs as well!

[Justus II]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

Slave workers do NOT work slower in anarchy!!! (110% sure about this)

Also, IIRC indus workers do NOT get the bonus in anarchy! I could be wrong here - last time I was indus was in PTW.

Crazy shit, but I think they've hardcoded the BWT for workers to 1 in anarchy, regardless of anything else. [crazyeye]


Yes, there is something bugged (I believe it's acutally some parentheses in the wrong place in a formula somewhere, or a rounding error), but when the Worker Speed setting for a given government is set to 1, ALL workers (slave, normal, industrious, non-Ind) all work at the same base speed. In a regular game, that is only functional during anarchy, but in mods (such as The Ancient Mediterranean, which I've done testing with) if more advanced gov'ts use a worker setting of 1, they have the same effect. So there, the Industrious civs get no benefit during those governments. (Another reason to get out of Despotism in that Mod!).

[anarres]

I think it's more likely that they deliberatly hard coded it because it was only used in anarchy, and they wanted all workers to work at slave speed for that.

[Grille]

Save (me from) the rainforests?

Look at this jungle paradise:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Grille/20041210201847_rainforest.jpg
143.28KB

Wouldn't it be more efficient to plop/abandon cities at some point there rather than clearing it by workers? (at least to get 2 or so cleared tiles per city?)

[grahamiam]

wow, that's a lot of jungle! you may consider utilizing the bannana's with your settler clearing idea (2fpt as jungle, 3fpt each when on grass and despot), too bad bonapak can't take advantage of them or it could build it's own workers. imho, i'd only do the settler clearing trick after the iron is secured to the NE (done!), horses are secured, and the choke is sealed to the SW and you have the "corner" secured (sugar area W of jungle)thanks to the bannana's, that jungle land will be quite nice once it's cleared.

edit: thinking about this some more, that's 6 jungle tiles out there needing to be cleared (6 bannana's), or 24 turns, in addition to the 4 (rough estimate) towns that can be placed in there. so, the question is, do you want 6 throw-away settlers or 12 workers. imho, i'd go for the workers as you'll get more than a 1T use out of them, unless your done expanding and can afford the throw-away settlers (180 shields, can't come to grips with it!)

[Grille]

Agreed, I think I rather build/use the workers. Might be different for non-industrious.
Since it's a large map, there's tons of space left to expand to; would hurt to waste settlers (at least in the near furure). Maybe my Japanese neighbour (AI) 'clears' one or another tile.:)

[digger760]

I never heard anybody using the Fascist Government..but this maybe a good one for it (2x worker speed bonus)

EDIT - dont you get the settler back when abandoning a city?

[grahamiam]

quote:Originally posted by digger760

I never heard anybody using the Fascist Government..but this maybe a good one for it (2x worker speed bonus) i have played facist gov't in an sg and can say for sure that i don't like it. i'd rather research towards RP than waste time on this tech. also, usually, by that point in the game (IA), your economy is so good that cash rushing is easier.

with 6 non-industrious workers, total turns to clear each jungle should be = 3x16/(2x6) = 4 turns.

quote:EDIT - dont you get the settler back when abandoning a city?
i just get a pile of rocks :)

[Grille]

quote:Originally posted by grahamiam

quote:Originally posted by digger760

I never heard anybody using the Fascist Government..but this maybe a good one for it (2x worker speed bonus) i have played facist gov't in an sg and can say for sure that i don't like it. i'd rather research towards RP than waste time on this tech. also, usually, by that point in the game (IA), your economy is so good that cash rushing is easier.

with 6 non-industrious workers, total turns to clear each jungle should be = 3x16/(2x6) = 4 turns.

quote:EDIT - dont you get the settler back when abandoning a city?
i just get a pile of rocks :)


Facism is probably out of the question.
Thinking about 'getting the settler back':
Maybe I should let the town stay untill it grows to 2, then rush a
settler, once I'm in republic and have settlers to spare.
(workers wouldn't work for mayans)