View Full Version : jack merchant vs anarres SPOILER
Start:
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In turn 4 I met the Romans :), more later!
6 - Meet Rome to the south. They have Warrior Code but won't trade for Pottery. :(
11 - Get Warrior Code from a hut! :D
13 - Meet China, sell them Alphabet for Masonry and 10 gold.
14 - Get Bronze Working and 2 gold from Rome for Masonry.
15 - Pop a hut - deserted.
16 - I have 4 scouts now, switch production to settler, then granary.
17 - [sleep]
18 - Shit! Look what just turned up on my doorstep!
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I have just had to rush a spearman. [cry]
19 - Fortify spear that was rushed.
20 - Rush a second spear, many more units appear! 4 warriors and 2 archers are on my city!!! [mad2]
AI - Iroquois approach, I get Ceremonial Burial and 60 gold for Masonry. War with Rome! They have lost a warrior on my fortified spearman. :D
21 - Fortify second spear.
AI - It appears they lost another warrior. There are now 2 warriro and 2 archers S of Rome. :(
22 - Rush a third spear.
AI - Yay! The Romans have lost 2 warriors and an archer, and I got a promotion to vet! :)
23 - Switch to build an archer, then I will get a settler. I am size 1 now, and paying not to be unhappy. :(
That really is bad luck [:o] Every once in a while one gets into this situation I guess...
My last 2 games have resulted in early AI rushes. [cry]
Melifluous
12-04-2003, 16:55
quote:Originally posted by anarres
My last 2 games have resulted in early AI rushes. [cry]
Was it something you said? [lol]
Melifluous
They know he has top position on the ladder.... ;)
25 - [lol] I pop a settler from a hut but it's about 30 tiles from home!
27 - Get The Wheel from a hut :D Rome will make peace now, but since there are 2 more warriors approaching (to join the archer) I will let them die first, before making peace to get a better deal.
29 - The Roman reinforcemets have arrived. The AI will attack with 2 warriors and an archer at the end of this turn. I still have 3 spearmen dedfending (2 reg, 1 vet).
AI - Rome has lost a warrior, have lost a spearman. :(
30 - Build archer. Kill the other warrior, just a Roman archer left now. Make peace with Rome and get Iron Working and 8 gold from the deal. :D
Change London to a settler.
31 - Meet jack merchant! (India). Sell Iron Working for Mysticism and 100 gold. I get 50 gold next turn, then in 4 turns when he has researched Mysticism (and sold it around) I will get that, and 10 gold per turn for 5 turns.
32 - Get Mysticism from a hut!! Whoops. [lol]
33 - Sell China Ceremonial Burial for 44 gold. They have 6 gold left. When jack merchant gets Mysticism next turn the most he can get is a tech or two, none of them have mmoney.
38 - Found York:
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41 - Get Writing this turn, unfortunately jack has just told me that he traded for it on turn 40. [mad]
Get contact with the Japanese for Contact with the Chinese and 16 gold from Koreans
45 - Found Nottingham 4 tiles SW on hill.
47 - Get worker from the Chinese for 110 gold, and another from the Iroquois for 110 gold.
48 - My settler that I popped from a hut many turns ago has finally made it home, Hastings founded. :)
51 - Found Cantabry. I was forced to settle early by a new Iroquois city. :(
56 - But Map Making form the French for WM and 155 gold.
I get Polytheism, Horseback Riding and 172 gold all form WM trading. :D
62 - Buy Code of Laws for 130 glod from the Romans.
Sell Code of Laws to the Koreans for Mathematics, WM and 19 gold
Sell Code of Laws to France for Philosophy, WM and 55 gold.
70 - Get a worker from Iroquois and another from Korea for 110 gold each.
74 - Found Coventry in the west, it will have access to 2 cows when I take rome out [evil]
77 - Japan demand 34 gold and TM, I refuse and they declare war. This OK since they are about 40 tiles away from me. :)
79 - Shit. Japan has bought Rome and China in to the war.
I kill a Roman Setterl/Spear pair.
80 - Korea demand 36 gold and TM, I refuse but they don't declare war. :)
82 to 86 - Killing Romans as and when they appear. The Romans have no resources, but look what those evil Japanese have got me in to now:
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Hmm... anarres, wrong thread! Delete it!
90 - The Chinese finally turn up with 2 horsemen. I kill one and divert horses east to kill the other one next turn.
96 - Research Monarchy. I've been killing Roman and Chinese units as they appear, now Iroquois Mounted Warriors have arrived. [rolleyes]
I am waiting until I have a few more horseman and I will take some Roman cities.
97 - I get a Great Leader! Better still, the Great Library is still available! [dance]
98 - Buy Literature from jack for 45 gols, half the AI asking price.
99 - I go to build the GL and... ...the Iroquois beat me to it! [cry] At least I can get it back from them at some point, they are not ooo far away...
So instead I rush the Hanging Gardens, the only available wonder. I think about an army, but I will do that if I get another quick GL.
100 - I am under heave assault form all sides. I will be holding the fort for a while, I guess an attack on Rome will have to wait a few turns...
105 - Make peace with the Iroquois, they want 20 gold, so I give 14 gpt for Currency instead. This way I get free money if they declare on me again.
Auto-raze Ravenna (Roman), send a settler in to resettle next turn.
106 - Found Newcastle on Ravenna's old spot. Take Veii easily, I have built a rod to it. :D
Make peace with Rome, getting 3 size 1 cities in the process. This is excellent news since they hadn't grown for many turns and I would have had to auto-raze them.
Pay Iroquois 17 gpt for Construction, I want them to lose a lot if they go to war with me.
Buy Republic form Jack for 350 gold.
109 - 3 Chinese Riders appear from nowhere, right next to city with 1 spear defending. I pay 80 gold for peace, I can't pay gpt since I an in anarchy [mad]
110 - Found Oxford to the NE, filling out some space now. I need another settler to go south and grab an incense by the Romans.
111 - Found Liverpool to the west, right up to the Iroquois border.
112 - Finally I am a Republic.
Make peace with Japan, giving Republic for Feudalism.
121 - Found Brighton. Give the Iroquois Wines for 130 gold.
123 - Get Monotheism from jack for 300 gold.
124 - Get Engeneering for Mono and 5 gpt from the Japanese.
127 - Buy Chivalry for 304 gpld from the Iroquois. Jack got this 3 turns before I completed it. [mad]
128 - And now 3 Chinese horsemen arrive next to one of my cities. There is no doubt they are here for a fight. I ask China to leave and they declare war.
Pay Rome Chivalry to declare war against the Chinese.
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130 - Everyone seems to be at war witht he Japanese, so I decide to get some cash out of it. The Iroquois pay 167 gold and 4 gpt for an MA. France needs 35 gold to part with 2 workers for an MA.
135 - Capture ??? on the East coast.
136 - Do a straight lux deal with Jack. I get Ivory for Furs.
137 - A captured roman city flips to the Iroquois. [sad] At least it had no buildings and was size 1, and had just 1 defender.
Taking out some lone Chinese longbows generate a leader! :D Since I am some way from a good FP location I decide to build a wonder. Somehow my rep is shot, I have no idea. I can still make a gpt deal with Korea as part of a peace treaty.
Get Invention from Korea for 32 gpt and peace. Rush Leonardo's.
144 - I finally manage to road far enough to the Chinese to take Neapolis. Make peace with China getting Gunpowder for 32 gpt. Get Theology from the Romand for Gunpowder and 43 gold. Give incense to China for 13 gpt.
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Hmmmm, nice wonder. About your rep: did you have a trade route cut-off because of a war?
I had deliberately not traded lux to any civ I was not in direct contact with, but maybe I am mistaken.
I have just noticed that when you make peace you can add gpt to your side and lump-sum-goods (like techs) to theirs. I have used this in a couple of situations now where before I could not afford a tech in one lump sum of gold.
What about your lux deal with Jack? Are you in direct contact with him?
It's fairly easy to find out who you 'betrayed'. Just try to get a world map for gpt and see what the counterpart has to say. They usually say something like 'not after what you did to the ...'
I lost my lux deal with Jack as the Iroquois declared on him. :D
However, the deal was only put in place after we had both lost our rep...
This from turn 152.
Notice near the start an agreement about repeatedly getting MA's against someone.
anarres says:
shall we agree to have an alliance non-proileration treary?
jack merchant says:
that's a good idea
anarres says:
or i will have to pay the koreans now
jack merchant says:
well, you could do that
jack merchant says:
I wouldn't really mind
jack merchant says:
bring 'em on !
anarres says:
i don't want the game to degenerate in to who can keep the MA on for longest...
jack merchant says:
yes, that's what I meant too
jack merchant says:
you can buy alliances
anarres says:
PP has made me want to cry over that game, 120 turns of pure hell
jack merchant says:
but no immediate extension after peace
jack merchant says:
I can understand
jack merchant says:
that's soooo exploitative
anarres says:
what does that mean *exactly* (since aggie and erikk couldn't agree, even in dutch...)
jack merchant says:
well, the peace treaty you sign will remain valid for 20 turns
jack merchant says:
is what I had in mind
jack merchant says:
so no buying the AI into breaking the peace treaty
jack merchant says:
or we could do the same as I agreed with Aggie
anarres says:
i think 10 turns may be enough
jack merchant says:
which is no phoney alliances period
anarres says:
in 20 turns you will often break the peace yourself
jack merchant says:
that's true
jack merchant says:
so shall we agree on respecting the peace deal for 10 turns then ?
anarres says:
yeah, so I will state it for the record and the public thread:
anarres says:
When a player makes peace with an AI civ, the other human player is not allowed to make a military alliance against them with the AI civ.
anarres says:
for 10 turns from the turn peace started
jack merchant says:
agreed
anarres says:
hehe
anarres says:
at least we can't fuck *this* one up
anarres says:
(famous last words...)
jack merchant says:
this doesn't stop either one of us from lettling loose our neighbours on each other right now, of course
anarres says:
sure, i was thinking about that too
jack merchant says:
but we'll respect the peace later
anarres says:
the chinese are going through me to get to you
anarres says:
i was going to offer them an RoP, to hasten their arrival on your doorstep
anarres says:
but instead, I have another plan
jack merchant says:
and you're not going to let me in on it, are you ?
jack merchant says:
btw, I just made peace with the Iroquis
anarres says:
of course i am, you are a part of it
jack merchant says:
does our agreement extend to that too ?
anarres says:
i was going to not only deny RoP but help you get rid of them
anarres says:
Iroquois, yes. no MA for 10 turns
anarres says:
jack merchant says:
OK
anarres says:
so, the chinese
anarres says:
i can help you
jack merchant says:
I'm not sure I want you as my direct neighbour just yet
jack merchant says:
how ?
anarres says:
but i want soemthing in return
anarres says:
i can help by not giving them an RoP and free use of my roads to sail through (move 3) and be on you
anarres says:
i can also help you kill them
jack merchant says:
mmm - I don't want you killing the Chinese though
jack merchant says:
they have far too many important wonders for that
anarres says:
really? they are coming to your house atm...
jack merchant says:
not that I can stop you of course
jack merchant says:
well, I'll just buy them off again then
anarres says:
lol
jack merchant says:
much cheaper now they're no longer allied with the Iro's
anarres says:
ok, i was not going to attack the chinese cities soon, i wanted you to promise not to pay them to attack me
anarres says:
in the next few turns
anarres says:
but fuck it, lets jsut get MA's
anarres says:
i'm still not going to play now btw
jack merchant says:
that's ok
jack merchant says:
but remember if you buy in the Koreans
jack merchant says:
I move before them
anarres says:
remember what?
jack merchant says:
so I'll at least get first strike
anarres says:
does the same apply when you buy in the chinese?
anarres says:
no, fuck
anarres says:
they get a free attack
jack merchant says:
much nastier !
anarres says:
you not interested at all in a non-agression between us atm?
jack merchant says:
sure - what do you want to pay me for it ?
anarres says:
lol
jack merchant says:
I like my bargaining position here
jack merchant says:
jack merchant says:
China is evil, you know !
anarres says:
i will give the chiniese an RoP and MA, there are a lot of them in there you know
anarres says:
that is my bargining position...
jack merchant says:
hmmm
jack merchant says:
and you get to go first of course
anarres says:
bah, i'm off to bed. too tired for diplomacy, my skills are failing me
jack merchant says:
OK - we'll consider it later then
jack merchant says:
sweet dreams !
jack merchant says:
of Riders trampling your lands and razing your cities
I want to know if I should get an MA with the Chinese against the Iroquois (who are weakened), or if I should get one with China against jack. Any ideas?
China currently is at war with jack, and are going through my territory to get to him. I could geve them an RoP to help them on their way...
I expect jack to make peace with China soon, will getting an MA now reduce the chance of China making peace? I am not sure. I do not have that many defenders and I am worried that jack will pay the Chinese to attack me when he makes peace.
I believe that you have to be very careful with a MA vs Jack if you fear that he will reverse the situation. He might have to pay more for peace, but I'm almost certain that he CAN make peace. I've seen it a lot of times in my SP-games. Civ1 gets a MA with civ2 vs civ3. The very same turn civ1 makes peace with civ3.
Well, in that case I am fucked. China is in my territory and I expect jack to get them to attack soon, this turn or next.
I can't defend against all those riders, I am goign to have to a mass rush of defenders, and see what will hold... :(
Here's an example of what I mean (from the SG CG5). Note however that this isn't absolutely the same as your situation (I expect that the AI at war proposed the MA instead of the one not at war yet). But I think that the outcome can be the same.
"IT: China and Spain get a MA against the Aztecs.
Turn 1 - 710 AD Istanbul and Izmit finished Knights, start new Knights. Our income is 58 gpt now. No-one wants to sell Chemistry.
IT: Spain drags Korea into the war against the Aztecs...
Turn 2 - 720 AD Konya builds temple, start Knight. Edrine and Uskadar finish Knights and start new ones... We are able to trade Chemistry for 60 gpt. Too much imho.
IT: Greece-America and Russia-Greece against the Vikings. The Aztecs and the Spanish make peace. That stupid AI! First Spain drags Korea and China into the war and now they get a rep hit by making peace.... "
Advice then? Rushing defenders is a no-brainer, but do I get the Chinese to attack the Iroquois, or do I demand they leave and get a few 'free' hits in when they declare war?
An MA vs the Iroquois may divide the attention of the Chinese between you and the Iroquois, provided that Jack indeed gets that MA. But then China has the first blow.
What about paying Jack NOT to take that MA with the Chinese?
As you can see from the diplo I not only failed in doing that, but I made it clear to jack that I didn't want to fight the Chinese straight away.
I will get another chance at diplo, jack probably will allow himself to be bribed, at the right price.
If I get 10 turns without war I can quickly build horses and upgrade to knights. My big downer atm is that last turn I pillaged my own iron and saltpeter so I could build spears and horses, and upgrade cheap (with Leo's). It will take 6 more turns to reconnect the iron...
Sorry that I can't help you anarres. But I tried :)
152 - Jack finally agreed to 20 turns of non-agression. Now I don't need to worry about the 20 Chinese Riders in my terrirory quite yet.
15? - Declare war on the Iroquois. Pay China furs and 5 gpt to form an MA. I really need China doing something with all those Riders.
Raze Oil Springs and er, this other city, can't remember. [crazyeye]
15? - Take Mauch Chuck.
162 - Raze another Iro city. I've forgotten the name, but it's gone now, so who cares... ;)
For some reason the RNG decided that retreating is for pussys, I lost 6 knights killing 3 pikes, and had another 3 retreat. [mad]
165 (AI) - The Romans have declared war on me. Fortunately their only chance of damage was taking a city or two on the first round of attack, but they didn't...
167 - Take Pisae, my first Roman conquest.
172 - I fail to take Rome, leaving a musketman on 1 HP. Ob the bright side I got a leader, with which I rushed an army.
173 - Take and keep Rome.
175 - Take Antium, and with it a source of Dyes. :D
180 - Take the Iroquois capital and with it the Great Library! :D I would have waited longer to get more techs, but the Chinese were threateding to take it first. The Pyramids come part of the deal, a very nice bonus.
Also take Lugdunum the current Roman capital. It was on a hill with several muskets so it took ages to build enough troops to take it.
181 - Get Printing Press, Music Theory, Education, Banking and Astronomy from the GL. I raze the last mainland Iroquois city and make peace. They have 2 small cities on a small island, they will be no more trouble.
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189 - Research Physics, set to Metallurgy (5 turns at 100%))
194 - Research Magnetism, set to ToG (5 turns at 100%).
198 - Japan has been bought in to war by Korea. I pay China Furs and 1 gpt for an MA, they will tkae the brunt of the Japanese and hopefully lose a few units.
199 - Research ToG and reach the Industrial Age. [coool]
Set science to Steam Power (8 turns at 80%, -53gpt, 420 in bank)
It is now turn 202. In 4 turns our peace tuns out, and I have a dilemma:
China is very powerful, they have electricity and nationalism, everywhere of theirs is pretty much railroaded, they have loads of cav.
I am 5 turns from Steam Power. I have 65 of my own workers and well over 100 foreign workers, and all my land is terraformed ready for rails. I will have about 70 Cavalry soon, I still need Military Tradition but I can get it for Steam Power (I think). Within a couple of turns after Steam Power I can have a rail net to either the Chinese or jack.
Jack is researching his last Middle Age tech. Since he is India he will get a free tech soon, maybe Steam Power (=rails), maybe Nationalisn (=rifles and conscription).
So, do I attack jack or China? If I go for jack I can get him before he builds lots of rails. China will be with me on an MA against jack until he can make peace with China and reverse the MA on me, I guess around 6 turns. If I can take some core cities I may have done enough to win, it all depends on how big jacks army is right now.
If I go for China I will hopefully get them before infantry, so it may be my last chance for a while to do some damage. I would have to watch for jack attacking, I guess he would be pretty stupid (or have no army) not to.
Hmm, I guess my mind is made up, jack it is. Maybe I will try to extend our peace, but I'm not sire if that would be a good idea.
quote:Originally posted by anarres
Jack is researching his last Middle Age tech. Since he is India he will get a free tech soon, maybe Steam Power (=rails), maybe Nationalisn (=rifles and conscription).
India is commercial/religious, so he won't get any techs for free and will have to research them himself. So If you go for Jack he'll certainly have no railroads in place unless he can manage to steal/buy steam power from you or the AI. Same goes for Nationalism/Riflemen.
Wow! Shit, jack it is then. Dunno why I thought India was Scientific! [eek]
210 - Get Military Tradition.
212 - AT LAST!!!! One of my Man-O-War's encounters a Japanese caravel and triggers my GA. [dance]
Jack is in the shit now. Truely truely fucked.
In 4 turns I get Nationalism and can attack Jack.
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Add to the bottom of that 2 Man-O-Wars and about 100 foreign workers. In 5 turns I have almost fully railroaded my territory, and re-mined most of the core. I have about 20 cities producing either muskets or cavalry in 2 turns. :D
Impressive. That's an area were I fall short every time. Keeping up in the late middle ages and early industrial age.
213 - China has made peace with both Korea and Japan, they are at peace now and I just hope they don't decide to take me out before 216, when I can get an MA against jack. I make peace with Rome getting 100 gold.
214 - Give Banking to Rome for WM and 72 gold. Make peace with Japan and give Military Tradition for WM and 32 gold. I will buy them in against jack too in a couple of turns.
216 - Our peace deal is over! :D
Research Nationalism. I immediately mobilize for war, my tile bonus now is fucking amazing, GA and mobilization at the same time! [coool]
Set research to 0% to get 850 odd gold next turn.
I pillage the western road route and plant forests to prevent PP getting to me this turn.
Jack made the fatal mistake of declaring war on the Chinese a turn early since I was going to do it anyway when I attacked him. This meant I was able to give the Chinese an RoP and I declared war on jack so he could not establish an embassy and see that I had it. The Chinese can now pour through on my rails and get a free load of turns while build up my army some more, and upgrade all those pikes and muskets to rifles.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003672037_jm.216.jpg
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Impressive, well played anarres !
Por Jack don't know what's coming to him... [cry]
Here is the wasteland formally known as India.
Note the pillaging, all my troops are commited, not a single one is defending my cities.
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Oh yeah, check the open thread for the war update (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1033187#post1033187), it was far too much to produce in 2 places...
Great move anarres. Clearly Jack missed his chance 50 turns ago...
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