Justus_II against akost **SPOILER**

[akots]

That is another of great Beam's maps. Played on Demi-God with 4 AI and 2 humans on a small map with continents. Me is Ceasar and Justus is a Dutch sailor. Both start with Alphabet and will probably try on Philo gambit. Start offered an intriguing possibility: either early luxuryor early cow. I went for luxury, cow can wait for a few turns. Also, Justus has Pottery and I don't have. So, we, the Romans, would have to cope without granary for some time. Which is very sad. Also, being agricultural and having cow, the Dutch get 4-turn settler factory of which our Roman patricians can only dream. Though we are militaristic and must chop our way to glory with swords leaving shovels to the residents of Amsterdam.

This is screenshot after turn 11. Justus went for cow and his score is slightly lower

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/2004102642237_JvA-t11.JPG
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[Banzai]

Do I see barracks in Rome?
Hehe [ninja]

Go get him!

[Pastorius]

Hm, if I had started improving the lux tile, I would go for improving the 2 bonus grass tiles as well - since they are closer (meaning that the worker moves from tile to tile, improving them on his way over to the cow.

Well, I guess you chose different because as the city border expands, you gain access to the cow...

Give im a thorough beating man!

[Ginger_Ale]

Don't furs give +1 production and +1 commerce? So that tile has 2 food, 1 shield, and 2 commerce (would be 3, but Despotism...)? A bonus grassland doesn't have that much commerce...you should've mined the furs! :)

[akots]

No time to mine, I'm a way behind in population probably, don't have Pottery/Granary. The worker went immediately to irrigate the cow. The reason for having barracks in Rome is that even with Granary Rome will grow only every 3 turns in Despotism. Without Granary it will be 5 turns. Once at a decent size, Rome can build 2 warriors and a settler during 6 turns it grows. Or may be even 3 warriors. Since it is Demi-God, may be the AI would have some spare cash which then could be used to upgrade the warriors to legions and go for a swift military advance towards the AI. But first time first, need to get Republic and revolt. Only then can build legions.

[Pastorius]

Ok. That explains it. I guess I choose differently because I am a noob on levels beyond monarch (in fact I havent played beyond monarch yet)

AFAIK from reading up on spoilers here and there, the population rush in the early game can be the deciding factor in the game. Am I right?

[akots]

In many cases it can be, so playing agricultural and having early granary is a great unbalancing factor between human players on levels over Emperor IMO. But it all depends on the map in most cases. Sometimes, you build granary and 4 settlers and already are cornered by AI (like in game against Arghis where map has also been made by Beam). You still grow population faster but it is not that decisive then. Very hard to tell. It is a real challenge for a mapmaker to make a balanced map in this regard. What I can tell you is that Skyfish, who made a map in my game against Anarres, really somewhat failed with that. Beam's maps are a way-way better.

Well, considering I'm playing against Justus_II, there is essentially no room for errors and mistakes, and performance during the first 50-70 turns will determine the outcome of the game. I don't have settler factory (he has) and no early granary. So, the only way to counter that is getting to Republic ASAP and trying to eliminate at least one AI with legions while extorting techs and other freebies from another AI. So, if I make a wrong choice there, the game will be over soon as well. To put it short, The Dutch can have a luxury of simple build up and expansion without making critical decisions early in the game keeping the AI happy and grabbing whatever possible. Whereas the game as Rome can be very tense.

[Beam]

[blush] Good spoilers in return! (Justus makes a nice one as well).

Can't see anything with respect to play on this map, the Roman UU is extremely strong on a small map however imo since covering distances is a less of an issue and it is both a very good attacker and defender.

Was surprised at first to see barracks but they are cheap for the Romans so it could pay off. In terms of shields-hitpoint balance based on warriors is around 6 vet warriors (20 shields + 6*10 = 80 for 24 HP) vs 8 regs (8*10 = 80 for 24 HP). But there are other factors like a very early improvement cost of -1 and units available for scouting / police vs. higher chance on an early Elite > Leader and better survivability.

Will be interesting to follow this one since Romans are a rare species in recent pbems!

[akots]

Quick update. The game is moving at a lightning speed and we are on turn 46. Roman to-be-soon-Empire shares the continent with America and England. Here is the current minimap:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/2004102965451_JvA-t46-minimap.JPG
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The turns have been very intense. England was met, Pottery was immeidately traded and Rome started on Granary. Meanwhile, the veteran warrior managed to capture English settler and two slaves transported back to mainland. Also, the warrior promoted to elite status and was ready to score an early leader, but this coincided with 8 English warriors coming to the doorsteps of Rome, so peace with England has been made.

Rome went to Writing at maximum and then Writing has been traded around for 1st level techs (except Ceremonial Burial) and Iron Working. Rome then went to Philosophy with scientists and was first to discover it on turn 47! Indeed, I did not expect Justus to give me that gift. He is probably expanding and not researching much, at least not with scientists. So, I picked up Code of Laws as a free tech and started at minimum to Republic but plan to switch to maximum after enough cash is accumulated for upgrade of warriors to legions and England/America expand closer to the Roman borders. AI still has nothing useful to trade, so I keep Philo and CoL for myself for the moment. It would be a nice trading session after they discover MapMaking and Mathematics. Bad thing is that because of the sicentists, growth of the Roman empire is somewhat retarded but not much, I hope we can catch up soon.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200410297345_JvA-t46.JPG
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[Aggie]

Good job on Philo [thumbsup] I also very much like the scientist approach :)

[Socrates]

Damn you're a monster !!! [eek] You managed to "steal" Philosophy to Justus's agricultural Dutch ? Well done. Could you describe a little more your scientific approach ? How many turns did it last ? How many scientists ? How much was your expansion delayed by ? Was it really worth it ? I'm asking because I would definitively not do such tactics (I'm too conventionnal).

[akots]

Well, I have described the approach for this game in the starting posts. Don't know how it would work. May be a big failure is ahead. Actually, there is little point in Philosophy unless you have Code of Laws as well. So, if Justus did not go for Philo, he won't feel a big disappointment. The main purpose of getting Philo first is to destroy the plans of another human player to get free Republic if Justus has any plans regarding this.

IIRC, I have used up all the cash I could get from America and England (something like 30g total) and used Scientists in Veii and Antium for a few turns (3 or 4). Also, as you noticed, Rome has +4fpt. Before Antium was built, Rome at size 4 worked the cow plus 3 grasslands for 2 turns and then for 1 turn, had a scientist working cow and 2 grasslands to get the last 2 food in the bin required for growth. This unfortunately wasted 3 shields because as a result of this, I'm getting a 13-shield warrior. But there is nothing much to built anyhow. When I hit the 1g cash banckrupcy threshold, Veii had a taxman and was switched to wealth which gave +3 gold and then I was able to run 100% research for 2 more turns losing 2gpt. This certainly delayed growth and rather substantially. Totally I lost probably about 20-30 food (2-3 extra citizens). But Rome has 2 free slaves = 1 normal worker + 1 gpt! Some small compensation. Also, if the situation with the number of cities gets really out of hand as it might be due to huge unit support in early Republic, it is always possible to build a few more settlers in size 3-4 cities. There is lots of grassland around which can be irrigated and during Republic this will allow to catch up in growth. I also hope for some forest chops and granaries in cities with food bonus tiles.

However, priority was set not on QSC statistics (cannot beat Dutch to this) but on military buildup, especially legions. Hoping that AI will build cities for the Great Rome and we just have to come and get these cities. Might be not so easy however and proper timing of the Golden Age is certainly crucial. I also hope to research Literature after the Republic and immediately gift it to England and America in hope that they will manage to build the Great Library. If this will work, research can be stopped completely and efforts directed to capture of TGL probably after Astronomy/Navigation. However, two things are unclear. First, should Rome build catapults? Apparently yes, about 15 or so might be a great help. Second, how to keep the captured AI cities from flipping? On Demi-God it would surely be a difficult problem since America usually builds culture like crazy and England also starts at a certain point. And Rome is not the best variant for maintaining cultural parity on this difficulty level.

[grahamiam]

very nicely written :) any updates? looking forward to this clash

[akots]

We are on turn 124 now. Roman Golden Age came and is already finished. It was a good time mostly devoted to building Courthouses (corruption on DemiGod really sucks), Forbidden Palace in Antium and Libraries and a little war with America. Lincoln has been allowed to grow. England was crippled earlier, so no big danger from them.

I have no contact with another continent with Dutch (Justus), Carthage (powerhouse, almost all wonders there) and Japan (apparently hammered by Justus badly). America has the Great Library and acquired or researched Feudalism and Monotheism. I hence picked up Engineering hoping for a trade coupled with peace.

This is current minimap:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200412943044_Just-124-minimap.JPG
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And the situation in the north-west where fierce battles with American macemen occur. The legions are faring well, there are a few promising elites but no leader so far. Not that I'm farming specifically for it. The goal now is Houston with wines. :)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200412943231_Just-124-NW.JPG
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This is cultural front against England in the north-east also faring rather well there, no flips.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200412943517_Just-124-NE.JPG
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And this is beloved Roman motherland, legion warehouse and land essentially free of corruption. Production capacity is not that cute however little can be done about it. There is a bunch of American slaves working in the mines and lots of workers. There are a few essential piece of infra to finish and then all production will go to horsemen and some more legions in case of naval assault. But maintenance cost for the units is not fun. Hope Justus is suffering from the same problem. At least, I hope to hook up the third luxury (wines).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200412943748_Just-124-Core.JPG
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The F11 graph is neither good nor bad. Apparently I'm doing fairly satisfactory against powerhouse Carthage and agricultural Dutch. Hopefully in terms of science as well.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200412943953_Just-124-F11.JPG
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And Beam was apparently in a rather good mood. May be blessed by Roman gods this time. Have not had this powergraph against DemiGod AI in ages.



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200412944316_Just-124-Power.JPG
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[akots]

The game is progressing rather well. We are already on turn 155 by the end on Middle Ages still trying to kill each other with knights though, no cavalry around yet.

Since Justus is seafaring, he has already landed some force in American land but I was able to spot the landing group and kill them off. Now we both have Navigation and I'm planning some small assault on my own. Justus has killed Japan and I have disposed of England. America is very weak in terms of military but strong with culture and Carthage (Justus' neighbor) is strong in both and has a plently of wonders. We are currently at the stage of bouncing military alliances with these two powers. AI is so predictable and easy to manipulate!

Justus though has significant advantage of later Golden Age which allowed him to build some Universities whereas I basically wasted mine of a few courthouses and some extra legions. Also, his cities are bigger and growing much faster. I have even started to build some granaries in slowly growing but productive cities. Actually, commercial trait might be rather useless on these kinds of maps but I hope Seafaring is not exceptionally useful after Navigation as well. He can move the ships faster but still not in a single turn.

We are more or less even in size (my territory is larger and his population is superior) and somewhat even in military and tech. I'm also trying to build a few Universities and some wonders, probably withh end up building Bach's which might be nice in case of war weariness. I also allied Carthage against Justus and couple a few large gpt deals with them to that alliance byuing the missing techs. I hope Justus will make peace or even make alliance against me with Carthage so that I will be able to get that gpt payments back and start researching full throttle again. I'm now running only 30% science because of these huge gpt payments.

Here is the minimap. Rome is red and the other continent brown colors belong to Carthage.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200519101543_justvsak-t154a.JPG
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This is the major battleground with America and former Duth landing spot:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200519101657_justvsak-t154b.JPG
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And this might be my opportunity to strike back at Justus [evil]:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200519101744_justvsak-t154c.JPG
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[akots]

We are on turn 168. I have allied Carthage against Justus and bought a few techs from Hannibal to advance into Industrial Age. Unfortunately this killed my budget completely and I was unable to research since Justus did not make peace with Carthage for about 10 turns or even more. He lost a city and then took it back. Then, he made peace and traded himself into Industrial Age as well. I did not know what to do. Either punch a war on so that war weariness will kick in bad forcing Justus to increase luxury rate and build Cathedrals or to research Steam power hoping to trade with Carthage for Nationalism. So, I decided that Justus and Hannibal must continue to hammer each other for a few more turns. I will try to send some troops to assist Hannibal in his righteous struggle with the Dutch. Justus has more Universities than me and larger cities, so I think he can outresearch me if I let him be in peace. Besides, he has build Magellans (as if he needs it with seafaring trait) and I'm afraid he can land a few cavs somewhere where I would not like to see them. So, let these cavs hammer Hannibal instead. I've bought Military Tradition from Carthage (which receives about 250 gpt from me to feed the military budget) and am researching Steam Power at 30% ready in 12 turns. The renmants of Abe are behaving and trading dyes with me and Justus. I can kill Abe anytime but better let him live for now apparently.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/akots/200521063549_justvsak-t166.JPG
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Here is the F3 screenie with minimap.

[Pastorius]

So many cities, so little force [:o]

Coastal blockade should disable his ability to launch a cav assault on you.

[akots]

Our militaries are average to each other. Indeed, it is not a militaristic game yet. But it is only turn 166. The problem is that terrain is not very shield-rich in my core and neither in Justus' core and AI has not put much of resistance except Carthage. Also, tech rate has been too fast to build substantial military. I have not yet built a single bank and only two universities but we are already in the Industrial Age. Hopefully, with railroads, things will be much smoother. Also, there are two Roman knight armies in the field which can deal with immediate threats of a few cavalries landing. And the core is defended by 6 cavs, 2 pikes, 2 muskets, and a dozen legions. Coastal mountains are mostly blocked and Abe's territory constantly patrolled for signs of landing Dutch army.

[akots]

The game is basically stalled on turn 180. I have killed Americans and Justus is advancing on Carthage. We both have Steam Power, he has Industrialization and I have Electricity.

Justus recently he got a new job and essentially stopped playing. Apparently, he does not have enough time since the turns started to be rather time-consuming. I hope one day we will continue with the game. As it stands now, it is more or less even. He is researching slightly more rapidly but has a strong AI opponent with lots of wonders and strong military, not an easy prey. I completely control the continent but am not so developed in term of infrasructure. However, seems I have more workers and more courthouses and it is a close race with Rome ahead may be by a tiny margin.