PBEM *Spoiler*, Akots vs. Justus II

[Justus II]

This is my Spoiler reporting thread for my upcoming game vs. Akots. This will be my first 'standard' PBEM, I've only played in two Conquest-based PBEMs before. Knowing Akots is a good player, with plenty of PBEM experience, I expect a real challenge!

Game Information
We've decided on a Small map, with 2 continents, and 4 AI civs (2 on each of our continents), at Demi-God difficulty. I chose to play as the Netherlands, since I haven't played them, and I think they have a good trait combination for a continents-type map. Akots chose Rome, which should be an intersting matchup.

Here's the link to our pre-game discussion thread:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2066

We will be using RB Civ rules, with a few exceptions noted (Ship chaining is allowed, as is scroll-ahead for new techs). We are also using the MSDG rules to regulate PBEM exploits.

Edit:
Here are the links to the rules:
Realms Beyond Civilization
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/erules.html

MSDG
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/site/mpm/viewtopic.php?t=49

[Beam]

Interesting you play with such a ruleset, could you post links to them? TIA!

[Justus II]

And we are underway! Big thanks [goodjob] to Beam for making the map! Here's my start:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/2004102631210_JvA_JustusStart.jpg
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Decisions, decisions. Do I settle on the spot (my normal preference)? Move S to the coast (hoping/betting it's saltwater, since I'm seafaring)? OR, maybe I move north-east, so I can squeeze 1-2 1st-ring coastal cities in, and hopefully be a little more centrally located. Also a better chance of finding any food bonus that might be around. I see 3 BGs, and the lux, right off the bat. Moving S would give up one BG, and pick up some sea (less shields) but it looks like there's several forest around. Well, either choice, the first tile I'll work will be the BG to the SE of the start, so I move the worker there to push back some more fog. Nothing special, another BG that can be worked from any of the 3 sites, and another forest. I finally settle on moving S to the coast, because I want to get some early curraghs out to get a feel for my starting continent.

My initial plan was to settle, get at least one exploring and one or 2 curraghs out, then build a granary (probably helped with a forest chop on the silks), before I start my expansion. No barbs to worry about, so I'm definitely going for a Farmer's gambit. But if I can find any kind of food bonus, I'll probably change and build a settler before the granary, to set up a second city as my settler factory.

Research will be on Writing first, one of the reasons I chose Dutch, so I could go full-speed for Philo while still having Pottery to start. Looking at the AI civs, England also has a shot at it (and I certainly expect Akots to go after it), so it will probably take max science (and a little luck) to get it first, but I certainly am going to try! ;)

[Justus II]

You win some, you lose some… [crazyeye]

Well, I chose the coastal start, to take advantage of my Seafaring abilities and get Curraghs out contacting. Was it the right choice? It didn’t look so hot by turn 8 or so, as my exploring warrior headed north to reveal a plump, juicy Cow (on a BG!), just outside my radius, that I would have had if I’d settled on the spot. Oh well, hopefully the early curraghs can make up for it. Based on that, I built the warrior, 2 Curraghs (one to go south, one east), and then went for a settler first before granary. It might work out for the best, if I can still set up a settler factory at city #2 (it looks like I can, the cattle + AGR bonus =+5 fpt), and let the capital take on military production and/or a run at an early wonder – Lighthouse, maybe? But we have a ways to go before we hit that crossroads.

My warrior made first contact in 3300, meeting a warrior from Japan to our north:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041026182538_JvA_Japan_3300.jpg
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It later appears they are to our northwest. They are up Bronze, Wheel, and C.Burial, while down Alphabet and Pottery. Since two of the remaining AI civs (England, Carthage) start with Alphabet, I figure that’s the safest one to trade away, and I get Bronze +7g. I hold Pottery back until I can meet our other neighbor.

That happens 4 turns later, in 3100, as our first Curragh earns his keep: :)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041026182736_JvA_Carth_3100.jpg
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Hannibal is up Masonry, but has the same techs I do. It seems like there should be a brokering opportunity here, but with no spare cash (no barb huts, no one has any extra gold), it’s hard to come up with something worth while. I could get Burial from Japan for Pottery and a deficit, but that still wouldn’t be enough to get Masonry, and I don’t need any of these techs enough to slow down my research on Writing. IF I get writing first, I should be able to trade for some of the others. I am curious about that other land mass to the SE in that picture, that’s where my curragh will head next. It’s too close to be the other continent, based on our original map request, but it looks big for an island? A couple turns later, it’s starting to look like an island, or a peninsula, but does it connect to the other continent?

Akots and I got 20 turns in our first session (very good pace), so we called it a night, just as my first settler got into position. here’s my situation the following morning, after settling Rotterdam:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041026183240_JvA_2950_Dotmap.jpg
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My plan is to build a quick warrior at Rotterdam for MP/Garrison, while my original garrison returns to the capital. Empty cities are just too much of a red flag for the AI, especially an aggressive one like Japan! Rotterdam will build a granary next, Amsterdam’s already started one. The worker is moving to irrigate the cow, so I can get started on a settler factory, while the capital will pump out a worker or two (after the granary) and then go for a barracks. I’ve shown my tentative dot-map, of where I want to place my next several cities. The Red dot 2W of Amsterdam is much closer than I would normally like, but it’s the best way I could originally see to stay on the river, and get irrigation over the hills to those desert tiles. Now that my Warrior has topped the mountain, I see a river off the west edge of this map, so I may settle on the orange dot instead. I’m glad to see a second lux (incense) to the north. :)

Research seems on track, Writing just dropped with settling the 2nd city, and with growth I should be able to drop another couple of turns, so I’m expecting it shortly after turn 30. Since Carthage had Bronze and Pottery, in addition to their starting techs, (and doesn’t appear to have contacted Japan yet), it seems they didn’t go for Writing immediately. And with no huts, and knowing none of the AI have Pottery as a starting tech, Akots may have decided to research it himself. That still leaves England, and possibly Akots if he went straight for Writing, but I think I’m still in pretty good shape to get Philo first. ;)

[Socrates]

Very nice spoiler, Justus II !! [goodjob] Keep it coming, I enjoy reading tales which are well explained.

I think your priorities currently lie in your north-west : the spot with sugar, game and cow, and the spot with incense. Too bad they're so far away, but it will pay off later. You must be quick to settle now, because your settler factory is delayed. I'm confident in your RBCiv's experience to master the AIs at least. ;) akots is another story. [groucho] BTW, you should have no problem getting Philosophy first with your agricultural trait. What are you plans after that ?

[Beam]

quote:juicy Cow (on a BG!)

It also is next to a river. ;) What a coincidence. [mischief]

[Justus II]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov


I think your priorities currently lie in your north-west : the spot with sugar, game and cow, and the spot with incense. Too bad they're so far away, but it will pay off later. You must be quick to settle now, because your settler factory is delayed. I'm confident in your RBCiv's experience to master the AIs at least. ;) akots is another story. [groucho] BTW, you should have no problem getting Philosophy first with your agricultural trait. What are you plans after that ?


Agreed, I need to settle west quick. With Carthage to the distant south, I should be able to wall Japan off if I can get the next 2 settlers out quick enough (I may even do another from Amsterdam after the granary), then settle my eastern backyard in a more orderly fashion.

As for tech, my current plan is to use Philo to grab Code, then research Republic ASAP. I would hope between those 2, I can trade for the remaining early techs. After that, depending on what's still available, I would expect to research either Currency or Lit, as those are the ones the AI is least likely to get for me. ;) With only 2 neighbors (unless/until I can get a suicide ship across), I'll probably do a lot of my own research in the Middle Ages.

I'd like to get a decent stack of warriors ready by the time I get Iron Working, as a short war to trim Japan before they get Chivalry would probably be a good idea. (Of course, that assumes we have iron).

quote:It also is next to a river. What a coincidence.

Yes, I was afraid I'd miss out by moving south. One of the reasons I thought about settling on the spot, or moving north, was that I'd be more likely to find a food bonus. But, to really get the most out of my curraghs, I wanted to get them out early scouting for me and making contacts. We'll see if it was worth missing the cow for a few turns!

[Justus II]

We've progressed another 15 turns in our game, and I was able to reach Writing ahead of my neighbors. I don't know about the other continent yet, but Akots mentioned he is at war with one of his AI, so hopefully that will slow his development.

I debated hoarding Writing for a while, to give myself a head-start on Philo, but finally decided to trade it right away, for three reasons. One, I could get Iron Working and Wheel (among other techs) so I'd know where the resources are in planning my settling. Two, I still have almost no military, and I'd have little choice but to give it away if it was demanded, so the longer I held it, the more risk I would take. Three, Japan was willing to offer 3 techs for it, while Carthage would barely offer two (even at monopoly), so they were probably researching it themselves. So, I decided to get what I could out of it. Japan offered the most, and I got Iron Working, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and 13g. Then I was barely able to get The Wheel from Carthage, I had to chip in 18g+1gpt, without the Monopoly bonus.

The good news is we have both Iron and Horses nearby. I was concerned about the horses, actually, as I didn't see any, but after checking, Rotterdam is settled right on top of them! And Iron is nearby, and on the protected NE side of the capital. So, my expansion should go on as planned. Amsterdam finished the Granary, built a quick worker, and will pump out a quick settler to grab the dot due W (by the Oasis), before switching to a barracks and military. Carthage has settled about 5 tiles south, and theres a green border peeking out from the fog near the FP to the SW, so I want to settle something in that direction ASAP. Rotterdam has nearly completed it's granary, and will then switch to settlers, starting with the Cow hill. After that, I should be able to settle north and northeast in a more orderly fashion.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/2004102943828_JvA_2390_IH.JPG
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The land mass to the south was indeed an island, and after scouting the edges, I let the curragh take a shot into the deep blue, but it didn't survive. [cry] The other is still mapping the back side of our continent.

I hope to reduce the time on Philo once Rotterdam is connected to the Silks. Looking at the research choices the AI have, it would be quite unlikely that they'd go for Philo before any of the others, Map Making is much higher rated. And I don't think they can research that AND Philo before I get there, so I'm still confident. :)

[Justus II]

I was very excited to get the 1830BC turn, and see that Carthage had researched Map Making! I was still one turn away from Philo, but since he had chosen that (and Japan had recently completed Horseback Riding), my sale of Writing didn't seem to have hurt. However, next turn (1790 BC), I discovered Philosophy, but no free tech! [cry]

Neither of my neighbors had it, so either Akots beat me after all (possible, since he settled on the spot, so he'd have better growth with the cow in the capital) or England went for it. Either way, I couldn't have influenced their choices, and I'm not sure I could have gotten there any faster than I did, once I chose to move to the coast. It will be interesting to see after the game if Akots did beat me, and by how much, and how much of that was due to settling in range of the cow.

Regardless, I'm still going Code>Republic. I traded Philo to Japan for Map-Making, then to Carthage for Masonry (I had to kick in 1g). Japan still has a monopoly on HBR, and I wouldn't be building any of those soon anyway, so they can wait. I'm also down Mysticism. I've been able to settle my first two new city locations, and Rotterdam should be kicking out another in a couple turns to grab the Incense, which will help my science rate. Amsterdam is nearly finished with the Barracks, and will start cranking out warriors and the occasional settler.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/2004103112153_JvA_1790_NoPhilo.jpg
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[Justus II]

An update, as I discovered Code of Laws in 1350BC. I'm researching Republic at max, 28 turns with a slight deficit, but hopefully it will continue to drop as more cities are settled. I was able to pick up Horseback, Math, and Mysticism from the AIs for Code. I am only down Polytheism for the AI's on my continent.

Thus far, I've succesfully blocked the AI from settling north of me, and Rotterdam is a pretty reliable 4-turn settler factory, so I hope to fill in the north quickly. Amsterdam is focusing on military, with an occasional settler as it gets to size 6. My plan now is to get a couple more barracks up, then start building up a decent stack of horsemen to grab some cities from Japan. I especially want the ivory source just west of Arnhem. The 3rd luxury would be just in time for Republic! :)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/200411624141_JvA_1350_CoL.jpg
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[grahamiam]

nice looking game you got going and very nice writeup. iron and horses so close, setting up some fun [charge] this should be an old rock-em-socket-em type game :)

can't wait to see what happens...

[Justus II]

1000 BC Update

We've reached 1000BC. Still struggling to get Republic, was down to 10 turns, but Japan just demanded (and got) 20g, so I had to stop running a deficit for few turns. Their time is coming soon, though! I'm currently racing their settler pairs to get the last one or two decent spots in the north (current settler headed for the forest SE of the cow). I have a couple horsemen in the area, so I should be able to slow him down enough to beat him. I'm up to 5 Horsemen, and Amsterdam is now at 15spt, so one every other turn. With the few coming in from The Hague, Utrecht, and Eindhoven, I should be able to attack with 12 horses in 8 more turns. My objectives are Edo (for the Ivory) and Osaka, then either raze some of the small annoying villages (Izumo, Nagasaki, Nagoya) and grab a settler pair or two for some free workers. I'm hoping to time it so that I can hit him hard, then get peace as I'm switching to Republic.

The Ivory will help with happiness, as will Carthage's gems. I will have a second silk connected in a couple more turns, and can trade for them then. Both Japan and Carthage are up Construction, Polytheism, and Monarchy, and are in the process of revolting now. Republic should be enough to get both those techs, and Currency if either of them research it by then.

Haven't heard anything from the other continent yet. I can tell from the score that England is still weakened. The gap between my score and Akot's has been growing over the last few turns, not sure if that means he's out of expansion room, or if he's already got Republic and going through his anarchy. I'm assuming the latter, better to assume worst case and be pleasantly suprised! [cool]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/200411130350_JvA_1000BC_Post.JPG
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[Justus II]

650 AD - The War Begins

After finally getting Republic in 775 BC, I immediately revolted, and drew a reasonable 4-turn anarchy. I was also able to trade it to Japan for Construction, Polytheism, and 26g. I didn't sell it to Carthage, as all they had was Monarchy. Of course, before the anarchy ended, they had Currency, and had already picked up Republic from Japan.

I had already aggressively settled Leiden, right up against Edo's cultural borders, but in a position to poach the Ivory, and quickly connected it, which helped with happiness through the anarchy. I also traded a spare silks to Carthage for Gems, since we both had harbors and a road route.

Following the anarchy, war preperations were in high gear. I had massed 10 horses near Leiden, and a few more by Utrecht. I used my Republic cash to upgrade a couple warriors to swords, with 2 more ready in a couple turns. I didn't want to delay too long, and by 650 BC the horses were in place, [charge] and my advisor actually said I was strong compared to Japan. :D (I am weak compared to Carthage, though, so for insurance purposes I bought Currency from them for 22gpt). [coool]

Here's the map, after the first turn's attack. I took out both Edo and Izumo, relieving the pressure on Leiden. I will probably abandon Edo, and resettle it one SW, putting it on the coast and making room for another city between it and Osaka. Osaka is my next objective, I plan to heal the horses for a turn or two and then converge with the stack from the south, and some new horses from Utrecht. Up north, my plan is to pick off some wandering warriors (I have a couple swords and soon a second cat up there), then possibly march on Nagasaki. [hammer] By then, I hope to have advanced on Nagoya, establishing a new border, and in a position to get the other tundra cities for peace, and/or a healthy discount on Literature.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/200411245400_JvA_650_Text.JPG
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Note the curragh off my coast, on the opening turn of the war, a Japanese Galley was sailing by, so he sailed out of port, and sank him without a scratch!

[Justus II]

News from the Front

The war goes well! After taking the first two cities (Edo and Izumo), my horsemen converged on Osaka, which fell two turns later. Meanwhile, a couple swords in the north (and my 2 catapults) killed off some wandering warriors. I began to see some swords near Nagoya, and also at his Iron near Kyoto (I sent 2 pillaging spears), but no horses yet. I know he has them connected, though. Bypassing a couple warriors moving into my territory, I concentrated another 6 horses on a mountain, and in 550BC I took Nagoya. Using horses from further back to then mop up the warriors, I was pleasantly suprised with this message:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041127213540_JvA 550 Leader.jpg
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I guess I need to study my Dutch history, who's Abel Tasman? [confused]

He is sent back to to build an army, but I'll wait until Chivalry to fill it. Even after the fall of Nagoya, getting Nagasaki in peace is still doubtful. [hmm] I can get Shimonoseki, and Literature, which is tempting, but I don't want to leave Nagasaki as a sore spot. So I mop up some more warriors, and move a couple more swords north. I should be able to take Nagasaki in another turn or two, although it will probably autoraze, then I'll settle for Shimonoseki and Lit, and focus on infrastructure. I've already started swapping a few cities to temples, which I will probably swap to Libraries. With Japan crippled, I think I'll be researching on my own for a while.

[Kemal]

Probably others such as beam and Jack Merchant would be more qualified to answer, and be able to tell you a lot more about this fellow... but since I am here and they are not: Abel Tasman was an explorer in Dutch service who discovered Australia, and the little island just south of it, which is named after him, Tasmania.

Any history experts of course feel free to correct or add to this meager amount of information. :)

[Beam]

Abel Tasman also discovered New Zealand which is named after the Dutch province of Zeeland. He explored a lot of Australian coast but missed the Adelaide-Melbourne-Sydney part entirely. The honoraries for that go to James Cook.

As a matter of fact Australia wasn't really discovered by Abel Tasman but by Dutch merchant vessels on their way to Dutch East India (Indonesia). This as a consequence of the Dutch discovery of the prevealing western winds when sailing from Cape Town. Before that discovery ships would follow the Africain coast towards India and further on to Indonesia but they were very dependant on the trade- and Mussoon winds for the progress of their travel which could last for years.

At that time ships were very able to determine their latitude (how far N or S) but determining their longitude was basically done by dead-reckoning (estimate speed, what you know about currents and guess where you are after x number of days). Any errors in dead-reckoning accumulate day after day and if you look at a worldmap you can imagine that ships did hit Western Australian reefs.

Tasmans expidition basically was initiated because the VOC (Dutch East Indies Company) learned from survivors that they lost ships on coasts to the S of the colony and they wanted to investigate what was really out there. Since the VOCs primary interest was trade and not colonization they stopped further exploration after Tasmans return in Batavia.

Determining longitude only became possible in the 18th century once accurate clocks were developed and the time difference with Greenwich from any given location could be determined within a fraction of a second.

Although many think that Columbus used astronavigation to find the New World it is pretty sure that he used dead-reckoning to get there and back to Spain. He simply sailed west and as you can see on a worldmap it is impossible to miss the Americas. What he and no one else knew at that time was that compass deviation and currents had put him about 15 degrees S of a true W course.

Am I redefining threadjacking or what? ;)

[Pastorius]

Interesting. So you guys arent just clog-wearing cheese-eaters then.

Dunno what this says, but it is somewhat appropriate (I didnt jack the thread [:p]

http://forumspam.articblue.nl/post_related/misc/images/0465.jpg

[Beam]

That really is Kingreno's area!

To give a clue: Dutch would use that sentence when dubya approves abortion, scientists prove the moon is flat and made of green cheese, green man invade Earth from Mars and AoA confesses to be gay while opposing the invasion of Iraq.

[Justus II]

Well, I'm learning all kinds of new things!! I knew about the Dutch exploration of the Dutch East Indies, but didn't realize the connection with Austalia (makes sense, though).

@Beam: I understand the example you're giving, sounds like the phrase is something like our "When Hell freezes over" or, in my area, "When the Cubs win the World Series". But I don't get the last comment, who is AoA?

[Justus II]

What a difference a turn makes!

Well, although I thought I had a pretty good idea of how I would wrap up the war, you have to be willing to change to meet new opportunities. The turn after I posted the last screenshot, I again checked the current peace offer, and found that Japan had acquired Feudalism! Now THAT was something worth bargaining for. Carthage was doubtful, even offering my whole economy (50gpt and some change), but Japan would give it to me for 20gpt as part of a peace deal. That's a significant savings, worth way more than those tundra cities. I still had some healthy forces up front, however, so I decided to see what else I could grab. I hadn't planned on it, but killing off his swords had left me with 5 horses in range of Nara, so I decided to go for it, [charge] and captured the city, with Harbor intact. My swords were still advancing on Nagasaki, even though I wasn't going to take the tundra cities in peace, it would be worth it to autoraze that city and give my northern region some more room. Destroying Nagasaki in 510BC was enough to drop the price on Feudalism to 9gpt :D Even adding in Literature only bumped it up to 17gpt (Carthage wanted 10gpt for that alone), so I took them both. I was able to recoup 4gpt by selling Japan my silks, in a seperate transaction.

I also had more time (while learning who Abel Tasman actually was [goodjob] ) to decide if I really wanted to save him for a later army. Looking at the tech situation, and our economy, it would be 20+ turns before I got to Monotheism, let alone Chivalry, and that seemed too long to hold an empty army. Instead, I could use him to rush the FP in Utrecht, which would be somewhat better located for my new Japanese cities, and allow Rotterdam to swap to a Market. It also would get the FP online about 10 turns sooner, which would help my economy as well.

Here's my new, peaceful republic in 510BC. I have one settler headed to the hill NW of Edo, and will then rush the settler at Edo itself (abandoning the city) and resettle on the incense to the SW.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/2004112834621_JvA 510 Peace.jpg
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I'm currently using just scientists for research, so I save cash for a few turns and upgrade to my new Watergeus defenders! [yeah]

[Justus II]

You have to take the good news with the bad

Our turns of peaceful infrastructure have been progressing nicely. Most major towns now have markets, and our two biggest completed libraries. The FP in Utrecht has been a big boost to our economy. Among the AI, the wonder cascade is nearly dead. Carthage was the main winner, getting Pyramids (good, I’ll want those eventually), Lighthouse, ToA, and MoM. Japan got Oracle and Great Wall. America, on Rome’s continent, got Colossus, Hanging Gardens, and (significantly) the Great Library.

The Good News: Our seafaring trait paid off, as an exploring galley finally made it across the ocean off the southern island, spotting land. After the first turn of crossing, it survived at the yellow dot (the same spot I'd lost a previous attempt). But my first move E revealed two borders, one red to the south, and one blue to the north. I decided to avoid contacting Akot's Romans for now, and see what I could find out about his neighbors first, especially if there were any deals to be made.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041232059_JvA Contact.jpg
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What I've discovered so far, is that they were behind my continent in tech. (I didn't know if Akots was behind as well, or if he had just avoided trading with them). America was lacking Currency when I met (although they had all the optionals), and England lacks Math. America has since then gotten Currency (from the Great Library, they had nothing to offer me), England is still behind. Interestingly, America completed the Great Library a turn or two after I met them, but still hasn’t gotten Feudalism. So that tells me that Akots doesn’t have it yet either. So even though (I assume) he’s the one who beat me to Philo for the free tech, and therefore should have gotten Republic faster than me, he hasn’t taken a tech lead for some reason. [confused]

The Bad: Once again, the AI beat me to a research subject! [aargh] Japan got Monotheism in 310BC, when I was down to only 2 turns. (My fault, I guess, for taking time to upgrade some units first…) So of course they traded with Carthage (who had already researched Engineering). I bought Mono from Carthage for 14gpt, and am researching Chivalry in 9 (hopefully dropping a turn or two, I have an older payment to Carthage ending soon). My peace treaty with Japan runs out in 10, and I want to be able to attack immediately, before they get Chivarly and those stubborn Samauri. Even if I wont be able to upgrade most of my horses by then, I’ll have a stack of MDI and cats on the border, ready to take out his Iron on the first turn, then the knights can follow up afterward. [charge]

[Justus II]

After researching Chivalry [charge] I was finally ready for the Second Japan War. Of course, Japan and Carthage got Chivalry the same turn I did [crazyeye] so I couldn't get a tech trade for it. My bigger fear was that I would be forced to fight Samuari's and Japan's golden age. However, there were only 3 turns left in our original peace treaty, so I waited it out and hoped. My first move when I declared was to hit his iron with my catapults, but all 4 missed. [blush2] So I had to send a Watergeus to disconnect it the old-fashioned way. When I got to Kyoto a couple turns later, it seems I was successful, as they still had a Pike showing as defender.

It was still a tough fight. I was only able to upgrade 3 horses by this point, and had 3 MDI, 4 cats, one Elite horse and a couple Watergeus (Swiss Mercs). It got desperate, I lost the horse, a couple MDI, and had to send in one of my Watergeus to finish the last archer, but I was rewarded:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/20041211105334_JvA GA.jpg
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Kyoto had the Oracle, for a short-term happiness boost. More importantly, the GA income allowed me to upgrade my remaining forces (6 more horses, a couple more MDI, and a few stray spears). At this point (10BC) I am at the gates of Tokyo (Great Wall). I've only seen one Samauri, who appears to have died attacking my SoD. It only then dawned on me [wallbash] that their pair of wonders (GW and Oracle) would have already triggered their GA earlier, which is probably how they've been able to keep up in research. Still, not having to face Samauris for defenders was worth it. I also have a small stack approaching one of their northern towns, waiting for the Shield Generator (GW) to go down. [lol]

On the other continent, I finally worked my way around, and made contact with Rome. They appeared to have taken a few cities from the Americans, but are a long way from the Great Library city yet. I was suprised to see they were still well behind me in techs. They had hit the Middle Ages, but had no MA techs yet (unless they have Engineering, I can't tell yet). So I was up by at least 3 (Mono, Feud, and Chivarly). America had both Mono and Feudalism, but must have researched them herself. It seems possible for Carthage to contact America now that they have the G. Lighthouse, but no evidence it has happened yet. I'm not interfering in the America-Rome war, although I did sell America Chivalry pretty cheap (3 gpt). [:p]

Here's a look at what I've found so far:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Justus II/2004121111345_JvA 50BC Rome.jpg
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