View Full Version : Kingreno vs Beam - * * SPOILER * *
Kemal got mad at me cause I hadn't made a spoiler yet.
Kingreno: The Geeks
Beam: Sumerian Empire
The Enkudo Warrior isn't a great UU but the Sumerian traits are. Agri for pop and Sci for techs. Continents, NO SUICIDE GALLEYS.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20041013202947_mapt009.jpg
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Turn 9 and the first settler will be build in 2 turns. Settle on the hills and massproduce EWs and workers. The cap already has 5 surplus food with the irrigated cows so it is a matter of mining BGs and building a Gran. KR will suffer.
Socrates
13-10-2004, 22:34
I don't know if you have much space beyond your capital, but I strongly suggest you built a granary first. You will eventually be able to set up a super wonderful factory, ie. 1 settler + 1 enkidu warrior every 4 turns !!! [eek] You have to start the sequence at mid size 4, build 1 EW in 1 turn, then 1 settler in 3 turns. Crazily I had never thought it would have been even more powerful with the Sumerians : 1 more food thanks to the agricultural trait, and a cheap good defense unit (enkidu). The best would even be to build a barracks in Urk (? stop messing up the names, will ya ! [smokin] ), so as to (freely) produce veteran enkidus for all your cities, units which will last for the whole game.
Factory will be there krys, but with a 2nd city to support it and allow some more options than click-and-go.
Rik Meleet
14-10-2004, 01:10
I'm playing an awful lot of Always War games and I really love the Enkidu's. They last an age, are cheap, versatile and upgrade. They only dislike Immortals, but then again; what unit doesn't ?
O.K. you get a despotism Golden Age; but that isn't neccesarily a bad thing.
The magic numbers in Urk are there, love to see those! Just need to do some mining. Contact with the Spanish and an Arab warrior popped out of the fog at the start of the IT.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20041015141040_mapt026.jpg
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Looking good Beam!
What are your research plans?
Hey, Rick, you stole my brand new avatar!!!!! I have spent an hour digging it out!!! [crazyeye]
No problem, you can use it but people would get confused. :)
quote:Originally posted by Banzai
Looking good Beam!
What are your research plans?
Yep, the cap is doing 10 shields at size 5, so I'm considering a 5-5-6-6 Settler > Enkidu factory :). Once the 2 luxes nearby are connected. Downside is that finetuning to that slows settler production for some turns.
Research is basically dictated by the absence of Alpha as starting tech for Sumeria. From there Writing and then we'll see.
Did some maths on the factory. It produces 8 shields at size 4 and 10 at size 5. Food surplus steady at 5. In a 4-5-5-6 sequence it should work like:
- 4,5: start Enkidu
- 5: Enkidu (because of the free 2 shields) > Settler
- 5,5: Settler gains 10 shields
- 6: Settler gains 10 + 2 and is it 22
- 6,5 / 4,5 Settler > Enkidu and the cycle restarts
Easy enough but changing from a 4-4-5-5 Settler cycle to a 4-5-5-6 Enkidu > Settler cycle will mean a one time delay of 2 turns between 2 settlers:
- 4: start Enkidu and disband an Enkidu (gives 2 shields)
- 4,5: Enkidu > Enkidu
- 5: See the 4-5-5-6 cycle above.
I hate to delay settler production in a settler factory but eventually it will pay off because of the extra scouting capacity, settler escort and happiness police until Rep. Did I miss anything?
The only thing that comes to mind is barracks. In general, I don't like combo factories. Unless you have enough workers, which nobody has, or a very spacious and luxurious OCP build, it might be better to share the mined BG tiles with other cities and just work some roaded unimproved grassland near the river instead for extra trade. You might even afford a second granary in Schok that way especially if aiming for AA wonder or even two. But it is a matter of personal preference.
It also looks like you need at least one more worker ASAP there.
Turn 65:
Literature is in the pocket and a couple of prebuilds in place to have libs soon. The AI are expanding like hell and there are about three spots left to settle:
- Near the gems in the W
- S of Schokland
- Near Erech
This is difficult map from a tactical perspective since Sumeria is basically the center civ. Hopefully Korea and Spain start fighting soon. [duelist] [medic] And an MA with them vs Arabia might be needed.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20041025125832_mapt65.jpg
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Meantime expansion rate is good compared with KR, still increasing the gap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004102513152_civscoret65.jpg
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Demographics are even better :D :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200410251337_f11t065.jpg
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Plan now is to build the libs then Horsies. Research, research until Astronomy and hopefully find a crossing point. AI behaviour will more or less determine warplanning although I hope to have reduced Arabia a little by the time of Chiv. Revolt might be late cause a standing army will be needed.
Turn 79:
Even better Demographics. :D
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20041027124810_t79f11.jpg
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4 luxes. Libs in 8 cities, 4 more are wip. Just started Construction in 11 turns.
KR told me AI declared war couple of turns ago so the Hoplites will be busy. Wonder cascade, Great Lighthouse is on his continent with the Byz. So we'll see Dromons soon I guess.
Plan right now is to get to Chiv. then Astro asap with a late revolt.
Beam, where did you get that borderline modpack?
Got it from someone in one of the recent Aggie SG's at CFC. Created this thread for links to graphical mods:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2102
Turn 89:
Maya scientists discover Construction and in the same turn 2 AI discover Currency. :) Mono is drawn, not bad because is the road to both Chiv and Astro. Been pondering to go straight for Astro but with AI all around the Maya safety has the highest prio so Feud is started.
Trade Constr for Curr with Arabia and get cash + 1 gpt. Trade Curr with Spain for cash + 11 gpt. No money probs the coming turns.
All but 1 city have a Lib. KR has revolted already. I'll wait for the AI to research Rep.
quote:Got it from someone in one of the recent Aggie SG's at CFC. No, really? [lol]
Turn 128:
KR just updated his spoilah so here is a Sumerian update as well.
After researching Chiv. the tech slider went to 0 in order to facilitate upgrades. There was a deal with the Arabs which had to expire before attacking them, so there was time to revolt to Rep.
Captured 4 cities in the first turn of the attack, lost 4 Knights as well against a minor city. In the 2nd or 3rd turn an Arabian horse attacked a Enkidu. The horse bit the big one and Sumeria entered GA. The attack proceeded well until Mecca which took 3 turns to capture. Turn after Damascus fell bringing the Hanging Gardens in Sumerian hands. [groucho] 6 more cities to go, 2 on an island. Gallies are in position already to transport troops.
One flip until now, easily recaptured. I expect more flips (Mecca, Damascus) and troops are healing outside cities for that reason.
KR was shocked when I told him Mecca wasn't in the Top 5 anymore. I really think he is behind.
Edu will be in the house next turn, from there Astro and see if we can find a route to the other continent. Korea has Eng and Inv (they just started Leo). Plan now is to leave the bottom side of the tree for what it is and see if the other continent has something to trade.
Rik Meleet
13-11-2004, 02:50
Any updates soon ?
KR updated his thread today.
Nothing spectacular. Arabia is down to one city in a shitty place, Mecca flipped 2 times and recaptured twice and Astro is due in 3 or 4. Universities under construction > Knights and Spain will have a hard time soon. Leaves Korea and they research like hell. :) Good ppl those Koreans. ;)
Turn 134:
One shitty arab city left, one shitty redlined spear defending it. [aargh]
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004111312468_t134fez.jpg
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It made me reconsider eliminating the Arabs now, instead make peace and get Eng with an option to trade Astro with Korea for Inv. There is a risk of flips of course but researching Nav postpones the neccesity for peace with a couple of turns and meantime all Arab cities will be starved to one and growing again. A couple will have Libs. So by the time I need to make peace fliprisk is minimal.
Nav gives the advantage of cross ocean trading and just in case Kemal put stretches of ocean in it also allows Caravels to cross oceans. And maptrading of course. :)
KR entered exclusive AI domain: he build the MoM! [lol]
Meantime Sumerian Caravels are moving to those seasquares they've been looking at for the entire game. Nav in 4 and we can sail wherever we want. Would be nice to learn more about the other continent, most info available comes from civscore where Sumeria is over 300 points ahead of the Geeks. (1100 - 800). Demographics don't tell a lot since Sumeria is on the #1 spot in most relevant areas due to the GA.
Erm... is that the MoM as in Mausoleum of Mausollos?!?! [eek]
Hadn't that already been constructed by the AI yet then? Why on earth would one want to build that.. was there a wonder cascade perhaps, that he was aiming for something else? Seems almost too strange to be true, even a cathedral would be a better investment I'd say at this stage of the game.
Socrates
13-11-2004, 15:17
I have to make a comment there. You're all [eek] about the MoM, but I have just conceded defeat in my only current 1v1 (told him 5 min ago). Building the MoM was a winner move ; wait for my updated spoiler within 24 hours.
@kemal, checked my reports and that's indeed the case. It also tells me that KR is at war with the Yanks. If KR follows the same route as me he is about 10-15 turns behind. Soon we'll know. Started a prebuild in a coastal city for Magelaen. It is a gamble cause it has some corruption despite of a courthouse and Seoul is adjacent to sea. Hopefully I can get some techs from the other continent.
Eindhoven just build Sun Tzu and that's quite an accomplishment!
Learned Nav and a Caravel made it across meeting a Greek galley. Reno has Astro so Nav is soon to follow I guess. Peace with Arabia for Eng. Full ahead for Inv and Gunpowder now.
Turn 143:
A more comprehensive update as I was playing the previous turn in a hurry and even forgot to build an embassy with KR so he did. I'll have to find a small Greek city and have a look there at a cheaper price than the cap.
First the minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004111411831_minimap270ad.jpg
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Korea is darkblue, both Spain and Sumeria are lightblue, the white line indicates the border. In the N of the continent is former Arabia. Their last city is on an island on the E-most part of the map, both Spain and Sumeria have a city there as well. It maybe a shitty island but it contains one source of Ivory and 2 settlers just have been rushed to connect that crucial 5th lux that will save 10% of lux. :)
Eindhoven (the Greek cap [lol]) is clearly visible as is Constantinople top-center. The W-most city is Byz and assumed to be on an island as shitty (sorry Kemal ;)) as the one on my side. So it most likely holds a lux as well.
KR did very well on the tech side, he got Nav the turn after I got it. The Byz also had it. So I thought trading Nav for Inv with Korea was a good idea. Indeed it was. 520 gold plus about 40 gpt iirc. KR is going to make contact anytime soon so no reason to wait. Gunpowder is due in 5 while making a profit. :) FP will complete in 2 turns and that might shave a turn of the remaining techs in the MA.
The Byz have an Harbor in their cap but lack horses. They won't lack for long. [evil]
The victory screen clearly shows that Civscore is a very relative statistic:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004111413949_vicstat270ad.jpg
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Although Greece is over 300 points behind in Civscore they are very close in pop. Most of the difference can easily be explained by terr. covered and most of that are Arab cities. I'm assuming the far majority of Greek pop is in the core with a couple of cities over size 10 where Sumeria only has a few cities over size 10. Nothing to worry about as a lot of shields were dedicated to units and Libs>Marketplaces>Unis and none to Grans. The Arab cities also have been starved to 1 and as they grow they will add to pop. Meantime I assume KR will try to defeat Abe and he will gain pop from that but he is still working on that while the former Arabian land is being developed now.
Sumeria shows strong compared to Greece in F3 so no issue there. We are negotiating a peace deal as a matter of fact and I'd really prefer to dominate the continent before planning an invasion. Spain is compact but average (Pikes!) in F3 while Korea is weak but widely spaced. Both are best dealth with Cavs.
Short term: trade route with the Byz and trade Horses for WM. Learn more about Greek whereabouts and their neighbours.
Medium: move to MilTrad and conquer the continent
After that: Greece!
Turn 145:
The trade route with the other continent opens, the Byz happily accept Horses for Da Worldmap :):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004111421342_t145minimap.jpg
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Abe is basically gone, Mao is weak and the Byz seem to be the only viable opponent for the Geeks. We signed 20 turns of peace btw, I guess we both want to explore and clean the mess on our own continent.
Found a cheap city and KR hasn't Salpeter yet (or hasn't connected it). Demographics also show a sudden change as Sumeria is back to #1 in relevant stats. My best guess is that KR had a GA and that it just finished.
Just completed the FP in the core and although it does not shave a turn of the current tech it certainly will count on the road to MT.
I stick with the plan to conquer the continent with Cavs, develop a plan for Greece after that. Korea is a big sponsor of Sumeria, need to find a solution for that as well once they are gone.
210:
In brief:
- China is gone
- Korea is gone
- America is gone
- Arabia is gone
- KR is taking care of the Byz after a RoP rape by Dora [:o]
- Spain is a good sponsor of the Sumerian empire but will turn into a training site for Tanks
As you've read KR managed to get ToE and Hoover mainly because he played towards the end of the MA and was very lucky to get the 3 baseline techs with his free tech and the free techs from the AI he kicked into the IA. I'm basically following KR's tech path now where the techs are cheapest and since I don't expect to get mandatory techs from the AI anymore. Got Electronics, RepParts and researching Coop. KR researched Sanitation as well while I got Comm from a trade.
I guess KR is researching Ref or Steel atm, if that's correct I'm just 1 tech behind.
It's a bit like the 4th game Erikk and me played so I'll play that strategy for a while. So more looking to defend the continent as opposed to planning for an invation. War is inevitable and hopefully the UniSuff will give an advantage. This might eventually turn into a Spacerace but we all know that KR is full of surprises ;)
I wanna see all your barb wired bunkers again, I wonder how that will affect KR's moral! [satan]
Rik Meleet
16-12-2004, 22:24
Are you planning to seal off your lands by units as to prevent landings ?
quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet
Are you planning to seal off your lands by units as to prevent landings ?
Not really. What I did in that game vs. Erikk was building a containment field around the core by making a ring of barricades 1 tile from the coast. The idea was that moving on a barricade in enemy terrain eats up all movement points allowing artillery to shoot next turn. Don't know how it would have worked out as Erikks landing force was completely eliminated directly after landing and we decided to stop the game. Pity we can't use pix atm.
So KR recently entered the Modern Age when I researched Combustion. So I am down those 3 techs plus at least Sanitation. I also was to late understanding why he left the Byzantines alive, i.e. sign peace, gift techs, trade their free tech and kill'm. Two galleons with Cavs had almost made it across.
So changes for me winning the game are minimal but KR won't get it for free. It will be about 8-9 turns before tankbuilding can start. Meantime I plan to do Flight > Espionage and prepare for Tech stealing.
KR told me he is about to end the peace treaty we had. Hopefully he waits a little longer than the 4 turns needed for Tanks otherwise I might be able to damage his troops but it will be hard to kill them. He is building SETI so I am expecting lots of MechInfs. He also has many landing options, including a RoP with Spain. Time for barricades on the hotspots taking into account he might have Cav armies. [scared]
2 turns later KR opens hostilities. 2 turns to go for Tanks and prebuilds in place. Barricades along the Spanish border are nearing completion. As far as I can tell KR hasn't researched Amphi so my bet is a landing in Spanish territory.
Little overview of land based hostilities so far:
- Many Bomber raids by the Greeks, nothing serious until now. Well, naval units planned for an invasion in Greece were all destroyed but I guess I won't need them.
- Landing of 2 Mech armies [goggle] and 4 Tanks last turn. 20 arties reduced both armies to 7/12. Next turn they were gone. The Tanks proceeded to kill 2 Infs and 13 workers that had just completed a barricade :(.
- Killed the mentioned 4 Greek Tanks with arties, Tanks and Cavs.
- Killed 6 Mech Inf invading on a hill with 12 arties, number of Tanks (lost 2) and 6 Cavs (lost 4).
You bet I'm extremely happy with Universal Suffrage!
Here is a typical example how the core is defended from a surprise attack thru Spain.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20041221233944_barricades.jpg
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Isn't it possible to destroy the barricade with bombers or artillery?
Pastorius
21-12-2004, 23:47
Ah. Good idea. I am gonna use that too, when the time comes. those are the fortress thingies that stall units right?
@akots: yes you can, and as you see the ones W of Rottum are defended by units as well for that reason. Units go first iirc, after that the barricades > fortresses > railroads > roads /irri / mines go in that sequence. The pressing need for them has become a lot less since I was able to sign a RoP + furs with Spain for Motorized Transportation (yuk). So I'll be able to spot a landing in time. Main purpose of the barricades was winning one turn in case of an attack thru Spain and be able to concentrate troops at the right spot.
@Paal: only barricades stall units and you need to build a fortress prior to that. Fortress + barricade requires 16 captured workers btw. Have you heard the news about the Dutch speedskating champion btw? Sven Kramer (son of Yep Kramer) got it and the guy is only 18! Skated the first 10k of his career in 13:22! What does Norway have on offer in return? ;)
About techs, I decided for Espionage > Flight. Once Flight and a spy in Greece are in the pocket it is stealing time [evil]. 9-10 turns to go. Only if KR lands a massive stack somewhere I'll be in real trouble as the bombardment stats against those Mech Armies weren't very promising.
So, it is possible to break through these barricades in a single turn? Bombard all defenders to red, kill them with some disposable unit like cavalry, then bombard off the barricade. But he still needs a turn to land. So, to actually break through this kind of defence, Kingreno has to capture a city from Spain and has a RoP with Isabella as well. Besides, if he captures the city, you will sure try to attack it as soon as possible. Looks as a rather powerful strategy indeed.
1st level of WW just hit. No real prob for the core with its Police stations although 1 still has to finalize it. KR reports 33 Bombers bombing a single city! There is a Greek island in range of that city and I'm seriously considering abandoning it or gifting it away.
Rik Meleet
24-12-2004, 10:09
There is a Greek island in range of that city ?
Can you bomb that island city to KingRenoDom Come?
quote:Originally posted by Rik Meleet
There is a Greek island in range of that city ?
Can you bomb that island city to KingRenoDom Come?
I need flight for that (5 turns) and the first thing to be build is a truckload of Flak and put in the city KR is constantly bombing.
No more than 4 irrc, more is useless. How does this mysterious anti-air defence works is exceptionally buggy though. Looks like it is possible to bomb with 100 bombers and still 4 flak are defending same as 100. Or am I wrong here?
This is going to be my first experience with Flak ever, never needed them! So, is there an article somewhere on CFC about this issue? Thnx btw for warning akots. [groucho]
I cannot find the thread at CFC. Tried to look up by the author thinking of alexman or theoden as starters but it did not work. iirc, alexman also had a thread in Apo about it but not sure. I'll try again later tonight. CFC is a huge thing, and with search disabled very messy as well.
Try this one but this is not correct one though they did some decent testing:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=501e46f4d8e5c8aef91600e8f026d45e&threadid=104164
Ok, found some thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=82356), not the exact one which is apparently somewhere at Apo buried udner the piles of newbie junk. All I remember about that one that it has been started by somebody else but there is a post there by alexman which explains everything with equations. Apparently alexman got a good buddy in Firaxis who has access to all the codes and designer workaround notes, so this is as reliable as it can be.
Thnx akots! Now can Flaks fire multiple times in the same turn or is it just one shot like arties? Reno has many many bombers!
Intelligence Agency completed last turn and a spy planted in Greece. Main differences in units:
Landbased:
- Defensive is about the same in numbers, Greece has Mechs, Sumeria not yet
- Greece has 8 armies, Sumeria none :(
Navy:
- :( [help]
Airforce:
- :( [help] +50 Greece bombers.
Last turn also came with WW level 2 and two cities in range of the bombers were abandoned / gifted to Spain. Greece don't have Carriers (yet) so no more Bombers flying in for a while. Looking at the number of Greek land-based units another invasion is a bit unlikely.
Main danger for the empire is being thrown into anarchy because of WW. In that case I'll go to Communism if I survive that long.
quote:Originally posted by Beam
... Now can Flaks fire multiple times in the same turn or is it just one shot like arties? ...
Not sure, apparently many times. At least according to the tests.
Kingreno
29-12-2004, 01:05
Good Spoiler beam! As said, the free techs the AI and me got entering the Industrial Age made gap that porved impossible to bridge. I had a great game and the rematch is accepted. Perhaps then you will get some leaders too![mischief]
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