PBEM Games and the UN

[Beam]

Since I quit my PBEM vs krys because I thought I wouldn't make it as a candidate in a UN vote and a chat with Kemal afterwards who said I should be a candidate despite not being in the Top 2 I decided to play thru and see what actually happended. Krys and me had exchanged passwords so I could play with both sites now.

Goal: What does the list of candidates look like if of the human players builds the UN and the other one isn't in the Top 2.

Starting point: the 232a sav.

Since I only wanted to test the UN thing and nothing else peace was arranged first and units sailed back (Byz. destroyers and Eng. invasion stack). Observation: the war happiness from the curragh being sunk around turn 100 was still lasting.

The tech research themselves don't really matter, I was just lucky when the Byz. got Fission as free MA tech. From there it was a matter of completing the prebuild.

The options krys got for the vote:
- Abstain
- Kryszcztov

No chinese or english. I would have expected either of the two!

And this are the options I got. Included are the Civscore stats at the time of vote.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/200410310530_UNvote.jpg
83.07KB

This leads me to two prelimenary conclusions:
- AI aren't included in the UN vote (they probably are however if they build the UN)
- Human players are only included if they either completed the UN or are in the Top 2 by Civ score.

[Kingreno]

Well, that is not supposed to be that way! I do not like it, it sets the UN as a victory wonder, since it is soo easy to buy some AI to your side.

[Matrix]

Very weird. I wonder what's behind this...

Firaxis and Microprose have made the critical error on and on to change the rules for a multiplayer game as opposed to single player. It never turns out to be better.

[Beam]

Yeah, it really sucks. Specially on pelago maps where some AI usually still are around early Modern Age. On pangea and continents it should not be an issue generally.

I'm considering to exclude Diplo from future pelago maps cause of this sad implementation.

[Grille]

quote:
This leads me to two prelimenary conclusions:
- AI aren't included in the UN vote (they probably are however if they build the UN)
- Human players are only included if they either completed the UN or are in the Top 2 by Civ score.


about the second conclusion:
I won the vote (in a C3C 1.15 game) after completing UN myself when my friend was the other candidate. We met for the final turns (playing civ mp while re-decorating a flat is great!:)).
Because I was scared about the UN-thing not working correctly (had read an Aggie PTW spoiler with buggy UN behaviour, Aggie-Stapel IIRC) and for analyzing each other's empire, we did a reload of the final turn after game completion: Both player's voting choices (me/friend/abstain for both of us) seemed about right.

[hmm]
I really wonder if an AI could win diplo in a PBEM...
Or: Can an AI win at all in a PBEM (by space... whatever)?

Any game lost to AI yet?

[Kemal]

Interesting... according to the civilopedia and I think everyone's experiences in SP you should be on the ballot if you have met the criteria as specified in the civilopedia (25% world area/ 25 world pop) which have nothing to do with actual in game civ score.

Apparently the AI will indeed never be able to vote or be on the ballot then, meaning it is solely the humans that decide who wins (or did they get the chance to vote after all, after you voted?).
Should mean the AI could never win even if it builds the UN itself, I suppose it will just never hold a vote then..?

[Grille]

Kemal, the AI civs do vote a candidate!
It'a just that they don't appear as a candidate although conditions to be one are met.

[Kemal]

Ah, but... when exactly do they vote? After player one, or after player two? Since if player one builds it, if they don't vote immediately, player 2 could then proceed by signing all kinds of alliances etc before they vote it seems, even after player one has already voted and built the UN himself.

Seems like an unfair procedure if all votes aren't cast at the same time. I guess Beam's solution is the best perhaps, just cancel the wonder altogether.

[Grille]

The second (or probably better yet: the last) human player gets the result at the end of the turn. I was first human player in slot1, my friend second in slot2.

Voting went like this IIRC:
New turn started for me, UN completed, lame manipulation of some other AIs, call vote. We two were (correctly in this case) listed as only candidates and also 'abstain' showed up. Ending the turn, I put my vote. My friend's turn began. I don't quite remember if he voted at the beginning of his turn (I think so). But as he ended the turn, the complete voting result was published (with AI votes) and he got the 'loss' message. The game was over then, no save&exit/contnue pop-up showed up anymore (HoF entry was made IIRC).

I guess AI manipulation is still possible for second (third...) human, because I think every AI places votes after the last human player ends the turn (no matter what slots the AIs are in).
Now in my case, my friend could not manipulate the AIs anymore...;)

I agree that UN is especially lame in MP (if not even bugged in case there should be an AI candidate).
If there's no AI candidate (possibly not bugged then) and humans keep good relations to still existing AI, diplo victory appears to be somewhat similar to the space victory... it's a race to UN.
For our revanche game(s), we decided to not allow AI manipulations to some extent (at least disallow as diplo victory starts to become an option).


I will try to get a save and post it here (it's not on my comp, though:().


I wonder what happens if player2 calls the vote... I guess the AIs vote before player1 then.
[dunno]


Speculating upon this bug, I *somehow* suspect the AI cannot win at all in a PBEM...

[Socrates]

I think that the Diplomatic Victory isn't lame in essence, but rather odd. It ought to be improved in Civ4 if it's still a way to end a game. The UN vic in Civ3 is in fact poor, because diplomacy between civs is too easy-going, the AIs can be bought anytime. So I tend to avoid this solution in normal SP games. Seeing at how it is handled in PBEM, and thinking about what it means (both players ask the AIs who is the better guy !!), I find the UN vic in PBEM very poor.

I won't try to do the surgeon for this thing, and will take advantage of the option being "on" or "off", and therefore I will ask all my future opponents in PBEM to turn off the UN vic, which will prevent any stupid end of game (and it will disable the UN wonder too). Don't try to ask me to get back on my position, even though I know you won't. ;)

[Aggie]

I only see this thread now. In my game vs Jack Merchant (PTW) the results were totally different. Both humnans got into the vote, as did a tiny nation (France in this case). If it were a SP game both Jack and France shouldn't have been in, but me (UN builder) and Persia...

There's probably more going on around this MP UN vote (it's obviously flawed), but I'm not going to bother finding out what. Just wanted to point out that Beam's preliminary findings don't fit my experience...

[Matrix]

Here's a scenario that might help figure some things out.

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif UN test.biq (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Matrix/2004106162421_UN test.biq)
5.59*KB

In order to be elegible you must either have 25% territory, 25% population or have built the UN. In this scenario there are three cases of the first (Germany, France, England), three of the second (Rome, Egypt, Greece) and the Dutch have built the UN. :D

I did two tests already: all civs as human hotseat player, and single player game as Dutch. In both cases France and Germany was elegible. [???]

Still ever seen a list like this for UN elections before? ;)
http://www.straland.com/junk/UNbigchoice.jpg

[Matrix]

Did another test: no one 25% of anything except the English who also have the UN. In such a case the second biggest is also elegible.

In the case where I played SP as English, the second in place that was Egypt.
Then I played hotseat as English and Rome. Now the elegible ones were English, Rome and Egypt.
This was in an attempt to reproduce the Beam vs krys situation.
Actually a 'second in place' shouldn't be necessary with multiplayer, where every human is elegible anyway...

Oh, by the way, Rome was elegible, but as Rome I wasn't able to vote myself!! Apparently the computer chose Rome for me. It was "Do you want elections?", vote, and results all subsequent.