C3C hype stuff

[Socrates]

My current game with Beam opened my eyes on a few features that appeared in C3C and which I now consider as broken. Not only are they broken, but they were almost all added as hype stuff, indeed breaking things which weren't broken or were badly implemented. Note this is only my point of view. But I'd like a debate.

First : man-o-wars. Those suckers were weak in Vanilla/PTW, but they now are very strong units in certain circumstances. They are uber-frigates that can last until Combustion (AFAIK), since Ironclads are optional. This virtually extended age of sails is nice for both gameplay and history. Now I come to what I find stupid and broken : enslavement. This is both an unrealistic and bad gameplay element. With one man-o-war, you can in theory eat and "shit" all the ships in the world !! [eek] Even advanced modern ships can get enslaved to man-o-wars. [rotfl] This concept could be an interesting idea for ships (I think it is for land units), but given the nature of the game (units in stacks, movement points being a decisive factor, sea bombardment being very effective...), enslavement for ships is just too much. Give it to man-o-wars and that's just ridiculous.

Second : craters. Another thing that we didn't need and that was added. Destroying tile improvements is already well annoying, a little unrealistic (though we can imagine some samage is done). But adding craters to that, which essentially is a semi-pollution is both unrealistic and bloody too powerful. You need to de-pollute the square (more workers time). And craters reduce the tile production by one food and one shield. Of course we all remember how Normandy's productivity was badly weakened by ship bombardment during WW2. [rolleyes]

Now, I'm not whining about what actually happens in my game vs Beam. Beam uses this stuff with skill, and so well done, but wait for the next wave ! I'm pointing out some new weakness in the game. I myself also consider using craters, and I own the dromons which have lethal bombardment (maybe too powerful, but not as much as man-o-wars' enslavement ability). I'd prefer naval UUs to be better in usual stats (movement, attack, defense) than having odd abilities.

What do you think ? Can you think of other hype stuff that was added in C3C ?

[digger760]

i thought craters were a good idea....it makes enemy resource disconnection more worth while. In real life, is'nt there a lot of post war effort required to get war zones productibe again? In this instance i think it is a good simulation of real life situtaion.


the enslavement thing is a bit stupid alright...an enslaved galley should stay as a galley at the very least.

[Socrates]

A galley at the very least. But still, you could use it as cannon fodder against your enemy.

As for craters : make war zones productible again ? I think destroying roads, railroads, irrigations and mines is already enough. Take a look at my spoiler, you'll see it is really uber-powerful. Many dozens of turns later, I still haven't finished cleaning up everything. [eek] BTW, craters are surely one of those things that Soren thinks are annoying features. Won't be long before this shit is out. ;) (civ4)

[Pastorius]

I agree with digger on the craters.Some finetuning of them might be necessary(but wont happen)
I agree with krys(wont even try to post rest of his name) about manowar(the boat not the band)

[akots]

Craters suck, too long to clean, need dozens of workers for a couple of tiles. On a large map, it is OK after Steam Power. But on a small or Archipelago map when there are few workers around, it is really unbalancing.

But regarding MoW I beg to disagree. It is a great unit like any UU, may be one of the best around for that time along with Sipahi (also balance-breaker even worse than cavalry since typically lasts well to Modern Age) and Cossacks (due to blitz ability). Dromons are extremely powerful and unbalancing as well and last a while longer from the middle of Ancient Age to Astronomy. May be, you are just upset that the era of Dromons has finished and the era of MoW has come. Well, there was no era or ironclands. This unit really sucks IMO even in C3C. But England certainly has an edge here (like in real history) for a short time before destroyers.

[Socrates]

No, I'm not upset that there isn't an "age of ironclads" (though there could be one if England wasn't around). I'm even glad that England can profit frmo a real age of sail that was desperately needed in C3C (no such thing in Vanilla/PTW). I'm looking at it, and I'm glad about it, both for history and gameplay (that is : ironclads are stronger but slower, makes sense).

I reckon dromons are also powerful, but not as much as man-o-wars. After all, dromons only have 1 defense point and can't go faster than other galleys. I think its lethal sea bombardment is a bit strong, maybe every ship could have it and dromons a better one ?

But I'm pointing out man-o-wars' ability to enslave (sometimes) when sinking another ship. This ability is insanely broken, and what's more ? they enslave to man-o-wars ? [eek] Anyway, dromon, man-o-war or any other bombardment unit, I think that bombardment is a bad feature in C3C. :(

[col]

I've created insanely large MoW fleets. Simply bombard any ship down to 1Hp and hit with a MoW. Chances are another MoW. Once you get the upper hand with a MoW fleet, its just about impossible to break the blockade.

[Socrates]

quote:Originally posted by col

Once you get the upper hand with a MoW fleet, its just about impossible to break the blockade.

Unless you come with faster units. Which doesn't happen before Combustion, ie. very late. Age of sail, OK, but a unit that you can put in stacks so as it is unstoppable is just a strategic failure for a game. If there is NO way to deal with them (even with more units), what about balance ? Dromons appear at a time when ships aren't many on the sea, and when they are slow and restricted to some areas. Not as powerful, both in ability and in range. I think dromons are a little powerful, but not broken.

[Beam]

MoWs are strong. But for a short time as akots says. And with Ironclads in the water MoWs need to be extremely careful about their whereabouts. Enslavement may seem strong and it is by the end of the MA / early IA but enslavement only happens 1/3 of the times, only when a unit sinks and results in another (Reg) MoW. Which is a win vs. Dromons etc. but the effect is much less vs. Ironclads etc.

Example:
- On average 3 MoWs are required to redline a single Clad. Then an MoW has to attack. If it hits there is 1/3 of a change of enslavement.
- So taking into account a MoW could sink as well at least 4 MoWs are required to sink a single Ironclad. That means 12 MoWs to enslave a single Clad! I'm not even talking multiple Ironclads here as defensive bombardment just increases the risk for MoWs.

PS:
We are halfway tru the IA and I haven't seen a single Dromon near my turf since the start of the game yet.

[akots]

Still I have little doubt that MoW should be better than Ironclads and that they should have enslave ability. It is both realistic to a certain extent and great fun. These brilliant sailors Englishmen (pirates and not exactly pirates) plundered virtually everything in the Atlantic. Including probably slow and weird Ironclands. Consider that they sold what they plundered and for cash built some more MoW since it is the only ship they like and understand. May be this explanation of enslavement sounds more reasonable. :)

On the other hand, regarding Dromons: The unit is really balance-breaking by the end of Ancient Age. Believe me, you just have to use them in numbers. I played COTM3 as Byzantines a month ago and Dromons are way overpowered. Compared to MoW, they are really cheap and fire rate 2 is weird as well as defensive bombard in a city against land attackers. I had a great fun using them but standard cavalry conquest in that game (brilliantly performed by SirPleb and Drazek) still beats everything. So, I finished rather badly (#10, worst result for me for recent 8 months [sad]).