Stapel - Propain [Archive]

Socrates

06-09-2004, 17:26

Sorry, but this time : definitely not what I would have done. Leaving the coast is a major tradeoff, and I think it is a wrong move here. As said, too many resources for one city, the city pattern will suffer, and your capital will lose some crucial coast and sea tiles and won't be able to improve them (all the more as you're seafearing). Don't wanna describe the power of Thalassocracy, it is obvious to me. And to you ? ;)

I'd say : move back to the coast !

Stapel

06-09-2004, 22:55

I did settle on the gold hill, but will settle a 2nd city asap in the east.

Stapel

08-09-2004, 08:46

In turn 32, my run to Writitng succeeds. This was the main reason to settle on the gold hill.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/20049883153_SvPP32.JPG
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Trade with Portugal:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004988330_SvPP32a.JPG
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And then with Carthage:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/20049884537_SvPP32b.JPG
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Stapel

08-09-2004, 08:49

Stapel's lands in turn 40. The settler will settle on the iron, the other quite near on the southwest bonus grass:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/20049884739_SvPP40.JPG
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Stapel

08-09-2004, 08:53

BTW: Machu Picu is settled on silks

Stapel

10-09-2004, 11:13

Peace deal:

Peace until turn 100 guarenteed
Also no settling on locations closer to eachother's capital.

Stapel

10-09-2004, 11:45

My Realm in 1525BC / turn 59:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004910112639_SvPP59.JPG
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Lt. Killer M

11-09-2004, 10:43

interesting!
you settled a bit differently from what I had envisaged - can we get a screenshot of F11 please? If you have time..... (u know what i mean) ;)

Stapel

11-09-2004, 13:11

[Stapel presses F11 for the forst time in 2 years]

Turn 86:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004911131037_SvPP86.JPG
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Stapel

11-09-2004, 13:12

BTW: ProPain has the Great Library. That sucks a bit.

Socrates

11-09-2004, 15:05

That guy always has a city named "Chapelle sous Brancion" near his wines... :D

BTW, yes, having the Great Library is always good. Good luck !

Stapel

14-09-2004, 09:09

The worst thing that happened:

Ommen had been pre-building a palace for quite some time. I did focus on mining its surroundings rather than connecting luxuaries. The reason I settled on the gold hill, was that I wanted to get writing first, then get philo first, then pick mapmaking, trade philo around and keep mapmaking a secret, so the Great Lighthouse would be mine. Quite a gamble, but I like that.

What went wrong?
Before I got to philo, the Portuguese already got mapmaking. 6 turns before I finished TGLight, they got it.
A few turns later, at the moment I have almost fisnhed researching republic, the research price for literature drops. I see I can get in 6 turns or so. The wonder build in Ommen, now switched to Pyramids (equal number of shields as TGLib), needs 10 turns.
Guess what: ProPain finishes it. When I only have one turn to go for Pyramids (a loosers prize anyway), some AI gets it. I can switch to ToA, but another AI gets that. Feudalism is around now, but I simply can't buy it, so I had no other option then building a colosseum out of marble and gold :( . In the meanwhile I did postpone turning to republic 10 turnsI think.....

We have 2 scientific AIs, so Feudalism and Engineering are there. I myself got into the next Age rather soon, so I did gamble again. I have now (turn 90 or so) a few libs, some specialists and 6 turns to go for mono. Against better judgement I hope to reach it first. If I succeed I can most likely do a top deal with the AIs, and then, of course head for Theo-Edu asap. Even if I don't get to mono first, I will get it in the turn right after the AI, and still have no other choice than to head for theo-edu.

In the mean while, I will settle on the little island to the west and then maybe a few towns on the somewhat bigger babana-golf island west from that (not sure yet). Main goal will be to invade the Carthagian lands up north, hope for a leader and build the FP there.
I don't think I shouls try to invade PP's lands soon.

Plux

14-09-2004, 12:06

That sucks :(. I've played a lot of C3C starter's games and what I found interesting is that the AI, especially when Seafaring (e.g. Vikings), always gets MM very early. Many times you can get to Philo and trade it easily for the much more expensive MM. So I always count on it to get it cheaply from the AI.

Stapel

14-09-2004, 12:45

Yeah, what I figured too!

The Portuguese did a topjob on getting mapmaking that soon. I was the first to have writing, and traded it to the Portuguese. Appearently they immediately went for MM, as they got way before I got philo (max research).

Beam

14-09-2004, 13:40

Weird, MM has a much higher cost than Phil.

Good luck with Mono!

Stapel

18-09-2004, 07:58

I got mono in turn 101 as the first. Traded around for Engineering, Feudalism, Monarchy (free), Invention and 10gpt. Byzantines have Gunpowder. Possibly the Persians too, but I am at war with them. they won't talk.

This was almost a necesity!
The bad side is that I settled a small island in the west 1 turn ago, and now a Byzantine stack of doom landed there. Only one spear to defend. They must have been on the way there already!
The SoD has those annoying ivory tower horsies, which we asked Killer to cancel :(.

Kingreno

18-09-2004, 08:25

quote:and now a Byzantine stack of doom landed there

Soooo....you offer theodora a lot of gpt for Gunpowder now right?

Stapel

18-09-2004, 08:42

quote:Originally posted by Kingreno

quote:and now a Byzantine stack of doom landed there

Soooo....you offer theodora a lot of gpt for Gunpowder now right?

That's indeed the only logical thing to do! In fact this will result in gunpowder for the price of 1 settler and one spear, so I shouldn't complain.

Stapel

18-09-2004, 12:53

I buy gunpowder for 68 gpt, tell the Byzantines sto fuck off, and see how the deal is cancelled. It has a price though:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004918125311_SvPP102.JPG
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Lt. Killer M

20-09-2004, 09:18

SHIT!!!!!! Bas, I am really sorry - I must have screwed that up somewhat weird!

Stapel

22-09-2004, 20:22

Turn 129:

The persians demand some money:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004922202037_SvPP129.JPG
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Would I risk this:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004922202157_SvPP129a.JPG
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Stapel

22-09-2004, 20:25

This my realm.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004922202650_SvPP129b.JPG
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Propain has finished off the Portugese, in a non-written alliance with the Persians, who got the bigger share of the Portuguese island. I aim Carthago the be my 2nd core. ProPain is now fighting the corrupt persian cities in former Portugal.

The Carthago island is situated very well for a 2nd core. An advantage ProPain lacks.

Stapel

22-09-2004, 20:29

The Persians Core is left from ProPain.....

Plux

22-09-2004, 21:37

From the small map it looks like PP is getting more land and cities. Does that help him a lot production wise on this map? What's your strategy?

Stapel

22-09-2004, 21:56

Propian has dozens of corrupt cities.

My strategy is building a 2nd core in what is now Carthago.

I won't attack PP soon!

Matrix

23-09-2004, 10:32

Interesting spot, Sardica... [slanteye]

Stapel

23-09-2004, 12:20

The whole Cathagina island is almost mine. I got a leader and there is an FP in 'Einde van Carthago'.
We are at turn 141 now, and our peace deal runs off in turn 145. Propain didn't want to lengthen it. So, I should prepair for invasion.
I should have nationalism in 8 turns, though my GA will finsih at some time, so it might take abit longer. Propian lacks physics, magnetism and ToG. My ships are watching for ProPain vesels, in order to avoid a surprise attack.

Kemal

23-09-2004, 12:42

Any luck with the FP there? In my experience, its placement doesn't really have much effect on surrounding cities in c3c, only the city itself profits massively, and the empire in general due to increased optimal city number..

So I was wondering, what are your experiences so far? :)

Lt. Killer M

23-09-2004, 13:16

kemal: that's my experience, too, which is why an FP should go to a very corrupt city to maximize its effect. If you have a leader, that is......

anarres

23-09-2004, 13:28

I 100% disagree! The FP can have a MASSIVE effect if placed well. Just see my 2nd PBEM vs Sky to see how well a good placed FP can benifit the empire more than just the OCN and 1 (FP) city. :)

Lt. Killer M

23-09-2004, 13:41

anarres: but wasn't all that before 1.22?

Kemal

23-09-2004, 13:43

I'd love to take a look anarres, but your spoiler ends 2 turns before completing the FP...

Stapel

23-09-2004, 14:48

The effect of The FP is there too for surrounding cities, as long as those cities are still within the ONC ranking. What you should avoid, is cities between your first core and your 2nd core, that do lower the OCN ranking of every cingle city in the 2nd core, yet are totally inproductive themselves, as they are too far away from either P or FP.
corruption is deciced by:
1. OCN ranking which is only determined by the palace.
2. Distance from either P or FP.

So, as long as 2 cores are relatively close, it works quite well.

Anyway: I did get a leader, and the FP is in 'Einde van Carthago'.

Stapel

23-09-2004, 14:52

The last turn I played, turn 144, was by far the longest. ProPain has three caravals, possibly filled with 9 cavalries.
I just got nationalism, though it was expensive. Depending where he lands, I should be able to disappoint him!
ProPain still lacks physics, magnetism and ToG.

I made peace with Carthago, which has still 2 cities on the island, soemwhere up north. Too bad that I needed to transport my troops south.

Kemal

23-09-2004, 15:08

Hmm, if I understood correctly the new corruption model takes a city's rank from the date at which it was founded rather than the distance from the capital.

One can notice that, even though far away from the capital, "old" AI cities are usually somewhat productive, and I understood that was because their rank corruption was less than newer cities at (for example) the same distance to the palace. (Contrary to PTW where rank was based on distance to the palace).
But I'm not a c3c corruption model expert, so it could very well be I'm mistaken.

Socrates

23-09-2004, 15:54

My understanding of the C3C 1.22 corruption model (introduced in 1.15) is :
- distance corruption is determined by distance to the capital or the forbidden palace, whichever is the closest ;
- rank corruption is determined by distance to capital, and equally distanced cities (3 tiles and 3.5 tiles are equal) are decided by founding date.
The FP city itself gets a great corruption decrease.

So the FP core will always be far more corrupted than the palace core. Placing the FP far away will only benefit the FP city, since distance corruption will cripple all the production by itself. Placing too many cities between the palace and a not-so-far FP will lead to the same problem, this time because of the rank corruption.

Am I correct ? I haven't checked what a fucking palace jump or building a palace elsewhere does.

Kemal

23-09-2004, 16:15

My apologies to Stapel for the threadjacking...

Looking back at some older saves, indeed it seems distance is the (main/only) factor on rank corruption, not date of founding (except in tie as Krys said).. which leaves me wondering, during one of the patches, was this ever different, or have I been hallucinating about more potent "older (former AI) cities"?

edit: I must have been hallucinating, as I can't find anything that would point at this direction anywhere, including in alexman's thread at cfc. The way Krys describes it is the correct method of calculation.

Stapel

23-09-2004, 16:31

Krys, what you describe is how I think it is.

But Kemal seems to have heared ONC ranking is determined by foundign date only, which in my case doesn't make too much difference..

Stapel

23-09-2004, 16:53

A, posts must have crossed.

Anyway: on topic: The most decisive turn of the game is now in the hands of ProPain. He has several spots to land. If he chooses the right one, I'm in deep trouble and must probably disband/empty a city. Ih he chooses the most wrong one, cannons will flatten out his expiditionary force.

The stupid thing is, that he is offline now......

Kemal

23-09-2004, 17:47

You mean he was playing with you all day?

And I didn't get a single turn from him for our 1x1 all day... [cry]

(It is a PTW game though..)

Stapel

23-09-2004, 21:05

Yeah!

Our game is very addictive. It really does bring the one-more-turn-syndrom into PBEM

Stapel

23-09-2004, 21:07

I just checked:
We started the game on 6 september, and today, on 23 september we play turn 145.......

Stapel

24-09-2004, 08:34

This morning, I did find a new save in the inbox. ProPain's 3 caravels did not land on the northern (former Carthagian) island. His ships headed southward, but could not reach land yet.
This has 2 major effects:
-He will probably not land north, which is a very mountainous place. An invasion SoD landing on a mountain is very annoying, so this is an advantage.
-The south is my main core, thus it is more risky if he lands there anyway. The worst part of this is that most of my units, and especially my 12 cannons are still north. I do have a decent force south too though.
I think I can pull off the invasion anyway, as I will rush a few units, and of course draft a few soldiers.

[u]Gentlemen, I need your advice and attention!</u>
-Though Propain did not land yet, he did declare war.
-ProPain also did drag the 3 AIs into war against me by making MAs.
-We did agree not to use MAs against humans.
-I don't mind at all!
-For the simple reason I had a 20 turn to go 251 gpt deal to the Byzantines, for buying nationalism.
-By the time the AI have some units near my lands, I should be able to crush the few or make peace.
-I have quite some war happiness.

Gentlemen,
Should I demand ProPain to replay his turn? I don't wish to......

Another Q:
The Byzantines sold me nationalism for 251 gpt, the last turn, meaning the did not recieve a penny so far. Does anybody know if this matters in dragging them into an MA, and thus giving that up? Just curious. Pure logic tells me that the price for ProPain to get an MA with the Byzantine against, should cost at least 251 gpt. Otoh, I did buy gunpowder earlier this game for 68 gpt, knowing the Byzantines would attack me the turn after.

Eldakkar

24-09-2004, 08:46

That Evil Propain! :D

I'd say, count your blessings and do not say a thing. You are not the referee of this game and it is Propain who has broken your agreement. If it gives you massive advantage, simply hold on to that advantage.

Kemal

24-09-2004, 12:10

Have to agree here, you didn't do anything wrong, so why should you suffer a disadvantage from it?

The way I see would see it:

You can't be forced to be put into a less positive position simply because pp didn't uphold the agreement you made. You didn't do anything wrong here and simply profited from the course of events. So leave it be.
On the other hand, of course, if you'd have been put in a much worse position than this, I'd say you still couldn't demand pp to replay... but you could ask him why he did it and if he understand the implications of his actions (i.e. breaking a formal treaty). Then he could decide to try and save his reputation by offering to replay the turn, if you would accept.
In the end, breaking a treaty is regarded as bad behaviour, but in the end you can't force people to stick to all and every agreement made. They can always be broken, but there is a price to pay (i.e. you might blow your rep at CDZ).

In this case I'd still ask him why he has done it, but if he offers to replay you are IMO totally entitled to refuse that offer, since you profited from it.

Socrates

24-09-2004, 12:23

I'd say that, because ProPain made a wrong decision (breaking a definitive deal between 2 humans in a 1v1), you have the right to shut up and "bear" the MAs. This is because it's an informal game between the both of you, and not the Election for the US President. That said, such a behaviour from you should not in any case be a case-law for future games. But from now on, MAs should be legal until the end of the game : it wouldn't be fair to accept this MA because it gives you some advantage now and later deny ProPain the right to sign other MAs against you, and also in the opposite way.

My starting point is that ProPain has to be aware of your pre-game agreements, he is the one to break such an agreement, and he didn't ask you about it just before playing his turn (something I did with Beam).

Matrix

24-09-2004, 12:24

I agree on Eldakkar en Kemal. It's just like an error of the bank: if it's in your advantage you can keep it; if it's in theirs you can demand it back. ;)

Kemal

24-09-2004, 12:32

Still, I do think agreements can be broken, so you can never "demand" a turn to be replayed because someone broke an agreement. It's just that i think the consequences of breaking such an agreement can be dire, which is why i think that in normal circumstances (i.e. the party not breaking the agreement is put into a worse position), one should notify the offending party of the broken agreement (in case it had slipped his mind) and give him a chance to save his reputation.

But IMO you can't make him replay the turn, if he doesn't want to do so.

Stapel

24-09-2004, 15:47

This is the beginning of my turn 145. You can see my capital Stapelburg, and my 2nd city Ommen. In the north, you can see Einde van Carthago, which contains the FP. I have put all kinds of units on the mountians, so PP would not land there. He evaded to the south, where you can see his 3 caravels (4/4, 4/4, 3/3). You can also see my 3 galleons (4/4, 4/4 (the one up north IS 4/4), 3/3, one caravel (4/4) and in Einde van Carthago, there is a privateer, which I hurried last turn (4/4).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004924154052_SvPP145.JPG
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At first I attack with my 4/4 caravel. As expected, it sinks, but takes 2 hitpoints of one of PP's caravels (2/4 now).

Stapel

24-09-2004, 16:10

My privateer comes near:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/2004924155513_SvPP145a.jpg
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It strikes and looses 1 hp, and sinks a 4/4 caravel. My 4/4 galleon comes near:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/200492416040_SvPP145b.jpg
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I strikes, though I do not really expect it to win this battle. Since it is a golden opportunity to sink the possible cavalries in it, I have no choice, do I.
But: It wins! It does redline itself, but promotes to elite after it:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/200492416350_SvPP145c.jpg
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Now it is time for the 3/3 galleon to attack the remaining 2/4 caravel. (It's only now that I realise the northern galleon is out of reach....).

Guess what! I am lucky!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/200492416740_SvPP145d.jpg
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Now, I am the first to admit that loosing only one caravel and sinking three was really lucky. But in a somewhat different rool of the civ-dice, I might have lost 2 ships and sank 2, or lost 3 and sank 1. That would still have been worth it.

Pastorius

24-09-2004, 20:56

Nice. Although he wouldnt just send 3 ships, would he? [hmm]

Stapel

25-09-2004, 06:53

Well, Propian just landed near Sardica. In the first place, this an enormous blunder from my side. Sardica has 2 swords, and I drafted a rifleman, in order to occupy the 3 other tiles on the island, preventing a possible invasion.
I simply forgot, and now PP landed with 3 cavalries:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Stapel/200492564932_SvPP146.jpg
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Otoh, Propain must think it has fewer than 3 units. I drafted another rifleman this turn, thus if he strikes succesfully three times, there still is a swordsman left.
A ship is near with replacement, so in the end this might all work out very well.

The simple fact he had a ship there with 3 cavs, makes it less probable there were 9 units in the ships I sank earlier .

Lt. Killer M

25-09-2004, 12:08

quote:and now PP landed with 3 cavalries:
There are indeed 3!

;)

Stapel

30-09-2004, 10:39

Small additional notes:
Before I sank PP's 3 ships, his army was strong compared to mine. After sinking 2, it still was. After sinking the 3rd, it was average.

A turn alter, PP landed on the Sardis island with 3 cavs. It's well defended though, so the turn after PP did some pillaging and got his cavs on board again. Though I cannot be 100% sure it is the same ship, I saw it some tiles southwest. I had 2 privateers within reach. I checked F3: still average. I sank the caravel, checked F3: His army is weak now!

hehehehehe!