View Full Version : DDPP *Spoiler*
*Unlike the diplo-threads, this thread contains spoilers for *all* other ddpp players, so if you're aggie, plux, matrix, erikk or propain, please leave now :)*
Since almost everyone seems to have a spoiler about the game, I guess it's time for Persia to give some insight in how things have and will be progressing in this game as well. Since I did not keep old saves stored on my PC, descriptions of the early parts of the game have to be made from memory, so they will be pretty general, with little details and, unfortunately, even less pictures. :(
Ancient Times
The Persian empire was founded about 1.5 years ago (real time!) on a pretty decent locations, for those interested I think there might be a pic in the CFC-thread, but the capital was near a river, plus it had a (plains-basd) cow in the 21-tile radius. Lands we're pretty ill-suited for a powerful ancient age empire (lots of plains and a few floodplains, plus quite some mountains and hills), and this combined with the fact that RCP was unknown when this game started (yes, it's really a dinosaur, this game), resulted in me in no way being among the fastest in expansion, since it also turned out two of the other 5 players obtained an early lead by getting a hut settler/town (ProPain and Matrix).
With this in mind, and the fact that this was my first "online" game of civ ever, after meeting the first two civs early on in rapid succession (First PP then Erikk), diplomatic relations were very friendly, as all parties expressed their interest in trading etc without much hesitation.
And as time progressed, with all of our nations benefiting massively from the trading between us, diplo intensified, and ultimately it was decided that an alliance between our 3 nations would be established governing the streamlining of scientific research, to make sure we'd be much more advanced and powerful than our fellow ddpp- ers on the other continent. However, no strict guidelines were ever put down to paper, and since our cooperation had been such a success, it seemed no one really cared anout it anyway.
So, while Erikk was supplying us with gold, and PP and I each pursued different techs each time, we were soaring through the ancient age tech tree, and another problem arose. What to do against the Great Library wonder? Obviously, if we wanted to keep our technological advantage over the others, we would have to build it ourselves.. but building it had one massive drawback, the thing costs a whopping 400 shields. Since all of us were still in the expansion phase, we made an agreement on how to best share the effort of constructing the thing, and the following was decided:
PP was to build the wonder in his superbly located capital of Salamanca, and we deemed the sacrifice in his expansion to be about 4 cities. To make up for this loss of expansion, erikk and I would create 4 cities for pp on places he would like to have cities build. Since I'm located so much close to pp than erikk, I was to build all 4 cities for pp, while erikk would build 2 for me to take over.
So, that's the real story about all the cities that have been captured by and from us on the continent, pretty obvious by now I guess, though Matrix still seems unsure as to what really happened..
And while we were at it, agreements were also made about each of our nations' borders, and for persia that meant the following:
With PP, it was agreed no cities were to be built across the following line:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831194724_grenspp1.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831194829_grenspp2.jpg
105.88KB
On the minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831194923_grensopminimap.jpg
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And much later, when Sky had jumped the ThisisIt to the NW, the following natural border was agreed upon with erikk:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831195023_river.jpg
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With no cities supposed to be built past either side of the river.
The Medieval Age, planning the invasion
And with these agreements in mind, things progressed very smoothly for about 1500 years (game years this time.. ;)), we were flying through the middle age tech tree, the FP was completed in Gordium greatly increasing empire output, while on the other continents there was no sign at all of any coherent cooperation at all, with Egypt, Japan and Straland all being entangled in wars at some time in the game.
But, as time was progressing, and the expansion phase more or less finished (and PP having completed the Leonardo's Workshop that I was keen on getting for myself :( in Susa), the big three leaders PP, me and Erikk got together again to forge plans to openly start an assault on our neighbouring continent. The philospphy was that now was the time to strike to prevent the other nations from ever becoming a threat to us again.. but, though I can't be sure about pp's or erikk's motivations, most likely this isn't the real reason why they are/were so keen on invading Egypt.
As for me, the situation of both erikk and pp moving away their armies to foreign territory was a blessing, being located right in the middle of our continent between both of them, and having two borders to worry about, alliance or not. Then again, I think it is a good possibility that all three of us had this same thought in mind when planning the attack, one rather sees a neighbour attacked than being the target of a possible invasion yourself. And in the case of PP and me, it had a very pleasant side-effect of triggering a GA.
So, I gladly agreed with the attack, and we all started to build our navies and knights/immortals/MWs to prepare for the coming assault on Aggie. I especially founded a city in the west to rush some galleys, as I didn't have a coastal city near Aggie, which also meant that I was the nation to bring in the least amount of armies in the invasion force, since I had only very limited transportation capabilities, and still have atm.
When the time came to attack at around 130 AD (I think), some additional measures were taken by Persia to ensure that the invasion didn't turn out to be a complete disaster, as things were pointing in the direction that some very stiff resistance was to be expected by the Egyptian empire.
This because I had noticed, while building up my armies, that my total army strenght started to surpass those of Matrix and Erikk quite soon (logically since they are the weakest nations), but then also started to surpass PP's and Plux's army in strenght.. but not that of Egypt! Only just before starting the invasion did my army turn strong against Egypt, while I had been strong compared to both PP (for a while) and Erikk (for a lot longer). Since obviously our meager invasion force of about 5 or 6 knights and a few MWs, plus a single immortal didn't look like it could deal a fatal blow in the first stages of the war, I contacted Egypt's neighbour Straland and their leader Matrix, who had been a loyal trading partner of Persia for a long time with regard to luxuries.
Since Straland and Egypt had formed a strong alliance during the Stralandic-Japanese wars earlier in the game, I felt some insurance was needed to protect the Straland-Persian trade route, and as I also suspected that Straland might wish some insurance itself against an (obviously more powerful) foreign nation that had already started invading his next door neighbour, Persia and Straland agreed to a 20 turn non-aggression pact at the start of the attack on Egypt.
Back to the war with Egypt again, as most of you undoubtedly have read in the spoilers/diplo channels of other players, our first wave had quite some success, with lots of Egyptian cities falling early on especially to Erikk's army, but once Aggie had his defences geared up, the war seems to have come in a kind of standstill, as all nations are losing armies, but no terrain is gained anymore.
Still, the positive effects of the war had already kicked in big time, as both PP and I were in GA, which allowed us to build up both domestically and militarywise without much effort (I finally finished my I-wanted-it-to-be-Leos Pyramids in Susa), and both our nation's production levels atm surpass the production levels of all other nations combined (!).
(These are the 260 AD demographs actually):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200483119527_demographs260AD.jpg
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PP's mfg goods are at about 200 shields per turn, all other nations' mfg goods range from 50 to 70 spt.
What the future may bring..
But now, let me fill you in on the real reason I've started my spoiler thread, as now comes the time to really start "spoiling" stuff.
As has been mentioned above, the alliance we made didn't really have any agreements put down to paper at all, except that we would work together against the other nations, and evenly share techs between us. However, there are always those techs that one rather doesn't share with others, especially when they are powerful or your neighbour, and those two characteristics combined makes it even less attractive!
I'm talking about, you may have guessed it, the tech of military tradition, or rather the immense shift in military power that takes place as the game-balance-breaking cavalry appears on the field of combat.
Ever since Chivalry, Persia has been worried about how we would pursue/gain this tech, but it decided to keep quiet and see how the other two nations would act once this tech came closer to being invented. And as it happened, it was PP's Iroquois nation that invented Chemistry, thus opening the route to cavalries, and it was also the iroquois nation that decided it would be the one inventing Metallurgy.
Persia agreed, as it was curious how the iroquois would keep their Persian brothers informed about this research project, and therefore Persia also inquired about the length of the project with the Iroquois leader, chief PP. And their answer, just after the invention of chemistry, was "about 7 turns".
So, while Persia researched the path of Physics - Magnetism, the Persian leader shah Kemal, or "K-man", waited patiently on receiving the tech of Metallurgy from the iroquois... but also made it a no1 priority for his BS-agents to check whether any signs of knowledge of Metallurgy by any nation in this world were present.
And after 8 turns, indeed the BS agents reported that metallurgy had been invented... but no sign of Iroquois scientists reporting this, let alone of teaching it to their Persian colleagues.
And it was then that the Persian leader decided to put the Iroquous chief to the test, and asked him, while sending Physics along with the next turn himself, "how metallurgy was coming along?", while knowing the answer to it himself all too well already of course.
While still hoping of course to get an answer stroking with reality, that was no longer what Persia expected to be the answer at that time.
And indeed, the Iroquois answer that can be read in the "right island diplo channel" by chief pp was not in accordance with the truth, and has forced the persians to see their indian brothers in a different light.
Because by know, it is almost a certainty that the winner of this game will be either Iroquois or Persia, based on total army strenght, available wonders/techs, and especially empire productivity, all of which our nations are currently far ahead of the others... and both me an PP know this.
Therefore, it doesn't come as a surprise that the iroquois might want to try and gain a temporary, huge military advantage over Persia once they (cheaply) upgrade their knights to deadly 3-move-cavalries, and try to launch a decisive attack on Persian territory.
While I do not, and can never have of course, any solid proof of this theory, waiting for it to be fulfilled would of course be sheer suicide, and the iroquois answer in the diplo thread, which can lead to no other conclusion than an apparent hesitation of sharing metallurgy, even a blatant denial of having knowledge of this tech, which goes 100% against the spirit of the alliance that we are both part of, has lead to a belief by the persian leadership that action needs to be taken at this stage of the game, and it needs to be taken soon, as cavalries could be only 3 turns away for the iroquois now.
Already, unless pp spontaneously provides Metallurgy after all with a solid explanation of his answer in the diplo thread, the Persian leadership has decided that the Iroquois' behaviour with regard to technological research has released Persia of any Persian commitments to the iroquois that flow from this alliance, and is standing by to declare any agreement between our nations null and void, per the next turn. This does not mean we will declare war on the iroquois yet, but there won't be peace between us either... just "contact", and old civ1 veterans might have an idea what that diplomatic relation means.
Since Persia does know honour, and keeping in mind the amount of turns we've cooperated, Persia will make the declaration public at least one turn before it will actually make any move itself, i.e. the iroquois will have at least one full turn to make for any preparations as they see fit.
But as to not raise any doubts about what Persia is prepared for, I suppose the following screenie doesn't leave much argument about what shah Kemal believes this tense situation might lead to...
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831195341_armypersia.jpg
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All of these knights and muskets are currently garrisoned near the Iroquois - Persian border, and have been instructed and are prepared to fight to death, if need be.
Meanwhile, Shah Kemal has also issued for military production to be started at an all-time high throughout the nation, as almost all prodcutive cities are now dedicated to recruiting and training new armies to take service in the Persian army, to be prepared as best as can be for whatever the outcome of this might turn out to be...
Who knows whether pp holds true to the agreement after all though, the next turn will provide more clarity regarding this matter.. Still, the situation is tense of course, with two powerhouses located so closely together
Finally, as a round up, here's what Persia looks like at the start of the latest turn (260AD), plus a minimap:
(western part)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831195428_persiaovervieww.jpg
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(eastern part)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831195537_persiaoverviewe.jpg
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and the minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004831195645_minimap260ad.jpg
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digger760
01-09-2004, 09:58
Good write up ..as usual Kemal.
I did'nt know that city swapping had occured early on..interesting to know.
What is the chances that PP might talk Erikk into an Alliance against you? And have you prepared for that?
Also it looks to me as if The iros have the most exposed coast line to the other nation..will you be inviting the stralanders "special forces" into the action?
***Breaking news***Breaking news***
Next turn is in, guess what..:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200491112342_ppmetallurgy.jpg
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Looks like it wasn't going to be metallurgy in 3 turns after all..
This does leave me with the following dilemma though.. I'm now 3 turns away from cavalries, and will have an immense army standing by to upgrade once the tech has been invented. I'm 100% positive that any attack on PP within a few turns (either with knights or with cavs) will result in me knocking out what might be my only competitor left in the road to victory in this game.. but there is still this alliance.
Since it hasn't been well defined ever, I've got no idea how to handle this aspect, and whether, and if yes when, a declaration of war on the iroquois can (ever?) be made, according to the alliance.
On the one hand, I absolutely do not wish to suddenly break any formal agreements that have been in place for so long already.. but on the other hand, victory is right before my nose, and all I have to do now is grab it, it seems. And PP sure won't be getting any weaker as time passes by..
Any opinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated. :)
@Digger: thanks, and no I don't think there will be much need (to fear) for alliances, we really are much more powerful than everyone else, and a war between us will be surely fought over a very short period before it is decided anyway.
digger760
01-09-2004, 11:45
Well..with no formal alliance in place you are free do do what you want..but in my experience, i reckon everybody will gang up on you. I think all 5 of them combined could ware you donw still.
But if your are confident that you can win you should take the cahne while you have it.
Hmm.. part of the problem is that I think there is a formal alliance in place, but that it just never has been really "formally" characterized as such. The way we have been communicating, researching and fighting together over the past few hundreds of years shows all sign of a binding agreement, except that it has all never been agreed upon in written documents, only via msn-chats etc.
Maybe I should rephrase the question a bit.. *If* there was a formal alliance in place (you could indeed say there is none, except that we play like there is), which would not contain any agreement on when it would end , would you in this situation take your chances and attack, or wait and see what the future might bring? (Which would make sure you would never be considered as the one to have broken the agreement, but would leave you vulnerable to being invaded yourself in times to come).
digger760
01-09-2004, 14:06
You definataly seemed to have developed a trusting partnership, and although it is non written anywhere (perhaps mentioned over MSN a long time ago and forgotten) i beleive to attack would be a backstab.
Perhaps you can use BS Diplomacy to cool relations a bit first.
Eldakkar
10-12-2004, 11:26
[bump]
time for an update :)
Indeed it seems to be time to shed some more light on what is happening on the western continent, or at least how an easter nation views it, since there has been plenty of activity in the western diplo thread it seems.
As can be read in the open thread, and which is why I didn't update this thread earlier, the latest turn has been an absolute stunner with regard to the progress made by the Persians in their struggle against the Egyptian nation, a massive portion of Egyptian territory has now been occupied in one major blow.
To start things off, here's what things looked like at the start of the turn:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213203616_start390AD.jpg
96.37*KB
In the first turn after landing, only 4 cities had been captured, with 3 cavs and the elite knights having been cruelly tricked and murdered by the Egytpian infidels. at the end of that turn though, I had placed the bulk of my cavs at a risky, but very central grassland location threatening most of the Egyptian empire for the next turn. Since the retaliation from grs took out just another 3 cavs, 41 of them remained to do some business.. which resulted in..:
(Turns on music of "Sonne" by Rammstein)
Eins:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121320404_Buto1.jpg
43.81*KB
Zwei:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204058_Lisht2.jpg
48.58*KB
Drei:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204157_Heliopolis3.jpg
45.99*KB
Vier:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204236_Athribis4.jpg
41.2*KB
Funf:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121320438_Elashumein5.jpg
43.49*KB
Sechs:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204354_Pithom6.jpg
45.28*KB
Sieben:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204434_Avaris7.jpg
51*KB
Acht:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204550_Thebes9.jpg
39.02*KB
Neun:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213204624_Mendes9.jpg
37.35*KB
Aus:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121320472_Abydos10.jpg
51.36*KB
(turns off music)
This in itself of course caused great happiness among the persian leadership, but even more favourable statistics found their way back to Persepolis, with regard to the battles fought between Persian and Egyptian troops: so far, 10 Persian cavs and a Persian knight have died a hero's death, but on the other hand, Persian troops have dispatched 16 knights, 9 pikes, 3 med infs and a spearman fighting Egyptian troops, and defeated 5 Japanese med infs, capturing 6 catapults in the process. In total, 14 Egyptian cities have been captured or burned to the ground.
As it stands now, if Egypt does not have settlers walking around or sailing in boats, the Egyptian empire could very well be at an end come the next Persian turn, since in the north, cavs from Athribis and Thebes are threatening the remaining Egyptian cities in the north:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121320587_finalblownorth.jpg
74.4*KB
While cavs in Pithom and Buto threaten the cities in the west, where, once Edfu falls, the roaded gems tile will grant passage to the remaining two Egyptian cities in the far southwest:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213205955_finalblowwest.jpg
82.15*KB
By scouting near the Straland borders, or sending in the slaves for cases that were too dangerous to use cavs for, crucial info has been obtained which ensures the safety of the cavs needed to take out the remaining Egyptian fortifications, only knights placed in Edfu itself might be able to threaten Cavs in Pithom, everyone else needed for this final offensive is safe, as verified by these pics:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412132131_hierniks.jpg
35.63*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121321330_hierookniet.jpg
43.67*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412132140_enhierdusookniet.jpg
35.47*KB
In the eastern parts of the battle area, however, things are looking less optimistic, as, which considering Stapel's movement of med infs and cats from that direction earlier could have been expected, fresh Japanese recruits threaten battle-weary Persian Troops near Abydos:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121321518_Samuraibah.jpg
33*KB
Obviously, my wounded cavs there are no match for this stack there atm, so other measures needed to be taken. Since the samurai will only move at speed 2, the plan is currently to outrun them until more troops (either persian or iroquois/american) arrive to take care of them. Since they are quite poorly located atm, a single persian cav has pillaged the road north of the Samurai, allowing all wounded cavs to either run away, or give them time to board the galleons that have been dispatched to the scene. The city of Abydos has been gifted to the iroquois, hopefully they will be able to send some galleons in to have some new troop battle ready, else this city will have to be abandoned as well I guess.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004121321112_oplossingsamurai.jpg
64.64*KB
On a sidenote, the japanese attack on Persian cavs last turn did have the positive side effect that free war happiness now means no more lux tax is needed, increasing income by another 60gpt.
Furthermore, while the iroquois have also been plagued by Straland troops attacking newly landed troops, the Persians still have a non-aggression pact, signed some time ago, in place with the Straland government for another 11 turns, meaning an attack of them on persian troops/territory seems out of the question.
This also means that the persians probably will not push further south to engage other nations once the Egyptian campaign is finished, but rather turn eastwards again back to persia. It is unknown what the Persian Leader Shah Kemal has envisioned for future turns yet to come...
To conclude this spoiler update, here's a pic of the current standing army of Persia, as of 390 AD:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213211742_finalarmy390AD.jpg
35.51*KB
With Persia having went into war-time production in recent years, it is expected that these numbers will continue to grow as time passes.
And finally, the situation as it was when the turn was ended (apologies for poor quality, but it had to be a zoomed pic..):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041213212113_endresult.jpg
75.14*KB
Pastorius
04-06-2005, 23:51
About time to update this old dino, ey?
Time for another update, since as can be read in the open thread, there seems to have been a massive shift in the balance of powers in this game, which surely have had a great impact on the status of the Persian Empire and its leader, Shah Kemal.
First of all: what has really happened? Simple answer: "Sneak attack by Persian Forces"
After long and careful deliberation, Persia felt that the alliance between especially the Iroquois and Persia had reached its expiration date, and that the cons of attacking a former ally without warning were finally no longer weighing up against the pros such an attack would mean for the Persian empire and ddpp as a whole.
Since the Persian leadership was growing more and more confident that:
1)the amount of resistance in the Iroquois homelands,
2)combined with the advent of railroad technology,
and
3)Persia's own military strength, which had grown immensily since the war with Egypt - and later Japan - had started,
could very well lead to a situation where one swift strike could mean an instant end to the Iroquois empire, a massive redeployment of troops from former Egypt to the homeland was ordered once again, culminating in an attack on 560 AD.
At that time, the situation of the Persian and Iroquois empire was:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625122915_SAbegin.jpg
87.68*KB
On the minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625134126_minimap560ADvoor.jpg
6.59*KB
Persian military:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625134147_military560ADvoor.jpg
21.56*KB
Now, to sum up the exact events that have taken place this turn, a perhaps slightly confusing pic indicating the route taken by Persia, and the new infrastructure build, in combination with the order in which the Iroquois cities fell one by one:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625124341_SAbegin3.jpg
138.93*KB
green= route taken by Persian cavs
red = newly constructed railroads during the attack
"1"= numbers respresenting the order in which cities were taken.
Green dot= newly constructed Persian city
However, it has to be said that while PP's defense were marginal, there were still some tales of glory left for Iroquois troops, as they managed to put up some resistance especially in LoA(11), where two cavs in a galley took out 2 of mine in defense, and history repeated itself in Slapshot (13) as well, again because of cavs probably boarded in galleys there, though there was also a damaged frigate sunk there. So it could also have been a task force fending off Matrix's troops as they tried to make a landing there...
Finally another 2 were lost in Oil Springs, with a reg med inf taking out attacking vet cavs.
In total, 9 cavs were lost by Persia in the attack, vs 9 Iroquois cavs 11 med infs and a vet musketman. The end result of the operation:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625125434_SAoverviewppgone.jpg
100.48*KB
And on the minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625125455_SAminimapklaar.jpg
7.21*KB
However, due to the fact that I simply had much more units available, the outcome was not unexpected... the real difficulties were still to start, as this attack likely will have its repercussions with regard to Persia's standing on the world diplomatic stage, resulting in 2 possible immediate problems for the Empire, both having to do with fellow neighbour the ThisIsIt.
First thing you should know is that the map we are playing on is a 100% random map, there hasn't even been looked at before playing started, so the division of things like luxes and resources very much deviates from the regular PBEM game made by other users. This was once again clearly illustrated when Persia managed to research Steam Power some time ago, and the search for lumps of coal started.... they were scarce, really scarce, there was not a single lump in Persia, nor in Iroquois lands, as can be seen on the invasion maps.
So where can these precious objects be found? A quick map search revealed most of it lying in the deep jungles of Japan, with only 3 sources being somewhat available at the time steam power was invented for us to use:
One was found lying immediately next to straland territory, bordering the Japanese jungle lands, and the scene of the massacre of lots of Japanese samurai, and therefore still considered as enemy terrain that needs to be watched 24/7. Obviously, founding a colony here would be like throwing a bottle of lemonade in a wasp nest, so it would require heavy military support to keep it running there, and most of the Persian military has already been reassigned. Therefore, that is not really an immediate option atm:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625134748_coalegypt.jpg
76.43*KB
The two other lumps can be found on our own continent, both in possession of the ThisisIt, but not closeby, and one of them deep into only recently settled jungle lands..:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625134727_coalerikk1.jpg
96.67*KB
When we were still cooperating, I received one of these lumps from Erikk, however he made a smart move when sending them, it turns put, by attaching a RoP agreement to his accepted lump of coal, forcing me to agree to this even though I'd rather would have done without it. Since that deal was signed only 12 turns ago, Persia is faced with a situation where we still have 8 turns of this RoP left during the turn in which PP was removed from the board. At that time, the borders looked like this:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005625134239_borderThisisit2.jpg
167.28*KB
(With highlighted borders, red dots are possible entryways for ThisIsIt military)
Not good with all the railroads I have in place, as that could result in heavy losses, and thus some border control was in order. To this end, workers had been deployed on the roads directly connecting Persia with the ThisisIt, and the cities of Zohak and immortallover were stacked with units as they were seen as the chokepoints of the empire, losing one of them would open the floodgates to the Persian homelands and production cores... among the defense are several riflemen, one of which now seems to have been spotted by Erikk, but only 16 units were available as nearly all cavs had been deployed in the south, where they lost their movement for this turn travelling through scarcely deployed Iro-territory (as pp had no coal either). (Unfortunately, in the excitement of the attack taking place that turn, I forgot to take a pic of these fortifications, so no visual confirmation I'm afraid of this here).
4 of those are vet rifles, and several conscript rifles are there as well (drafted on a 3 per 4 turn basis from the food rich former Egyptian cities of Thebes and Memphis). Still, combined with the workers blocking the paths and the geographical terrain, I am convinced they will hold for a turn even if Erikk decided to counterattack.
Because that, of course, is a final point that may be a consequence of my attack on PP... the world will likely not stand by to watch how one by one civs fall under Persian control, and it can be expected it will turn into a 3 vs 1 soon... either because they will declare war one me, or because I want to capitalize on my commanding position for now and will declare a "King of the Hill situation" and attack all 3 at the same time, maximizing damage in an as short amount of time possible.
Atm, Persia is leading by quite a large margin in most categories, even while Japan is in GA, but the total production capacity of all the other 3 nations combined still slightly outnumbers my own, meaning there is still a battle ahead to be fought. I might attack Erikk soon as well now though, since he seems to be not ready to handle large stack of cavs with his empire atm, and quickly taking over enemy territory seems to have a negative effect on the ability to mount serious resistance of at least one other ddpp-player (hint: he is in GA ;)), which could make total conquest and domination a lot easier in the end.
Will keep you all updated on the progress of these campaigns, of course.
As can be seen in the open thread, plenty of action at the moment in this game, so time for an update.
As Stapel and Matrix eloquently posted in the open thread, they've finally decided to bundle their forces against me, and Stapel managed to raze the Persian city of Pithom.
As it turns out though, the timing of this attack couldn't have been better. [yeah]
In recent years, after the conning of PP, Persia had been prospering but, as told in earlier updates, my main army was on my own continent, securing myself against a possible attack by Erikk and quelling resistance in PP's former cities, to let these cities function as draft farms for the rest of the game.
Due to this, I had been relatively weak in the east, which is why Persia kept it cool in that area and tried not to provoke Straland into joining or Japan into launching a full scale attack until I had completed some vital research of my own.
On the other hand, for Persia to attack Japan would most certainly require declaring war on Straland as well, since it acts as a buffer zone to Japanese lands.
Now, in a fortunate twist of fate, the Persian Empire ends up with having it all... it was this turn that the vital reseach was completed, and the answer on the cavalry arrived at the battlefield in the form of the mighty infantry! And at the same time, Straland declared war making sure that the inevitable loss of luxuries I will face in the east (especially my gems colony which is directly at the border of Straland) is taken care of by additional war happiness.
This is what the battlescene looks like in the west atm:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712223543_battlefieldwestoverviewlarge.jpg
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Only little losses have been suffered in the inital attack by Straland/Japan, and now their surprise advantage is gone... this has lead the Persian Leadership to believe that it is unlikely that a much larger second wave will be flung at Persian fortifications in the near future, but since friendly forces are still a little scarce in the area, it has been decided that for now, the main objective in the east will be to hold the fortified hill-city of Giza at all costs, thanks to drafting in former upper-Egypt, Giza's current defenses look like this:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712223912_gizadefenses.jpg
78.94KB
Next turn, 4 more vet infantries will join the garrison, with new draftees coming along to reinforce the city every 2nd turn from the north as well. These troops are expected to be able to last for a while, while the bulk of the Persian army finishes off their tasks in the east....
Since that is what the turn was really about of course. With the destruction of my coal mine, and the fact that Erikk was not keeping his part of the deal we had in place - trading resources with Straland, and building up forces near my borders - it was decided that, after making full use [evil] of the Right of Passage he had forced upon me earlier, the Persians would from now on look after the lands in the east themselves:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712224246_erikkwar.jpg
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Well Erikk.... ThisisIt!
As can be seen in the open thread too, a strange bug followed, which kept the RoP agreement in place during wartime. And it really did work this way: even when able to attack Erikk's cities/units, I was still walking at instant speed over his RRs:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712224430_ditkloptniet.jpg
46.03KB
As said, I tried to stick to normal movement, but since RR and workers where everywhere it didn't matter much anyway for the speed of the conquest, only in some eastern jungle outpost was I forced to skip the cavs, while they could have taken the cities they halted in front of... After some really heavy fighting near his capital (he was massing muskets it turned out), this was the end result of the first year of the campaign vs the This:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200571222481_erikkeindeinzicht1.jpg
60.54KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712224811_erikkeindeinzicht2.jpg
67.12KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712224822_erikkeindeinzicht3.jpg
57.55KB
It might already be game over for Erikk next turn, which is what we hope, since there is a big danger looming over the western continent, which can only be put to a halt by putting pressure on the Straland Empire.
Since Straland has access to berserks, with all the railroads in place, he could do very serious damage if he manages to capture a city and follows this up with lots of cav able to travel over roads, taking out a large portion of Persia in a single strike!
And since there are tons of coastal cities, I simply cannot defend them all. Fortunately, thanks to the way each player is positioned in the roster, Matrix will not be able to gift such a conquered city to mighty Japan, so that he could follow up with his cavs as well, since my turn to move is between Straland and Japan.
As Straland has limited production capabilites, I have not yet resorted to abandoning coastal cities to limit the risks, time will tell whether I have been overconfident on this matter...
Japan, on the other hand, could be a much more formidable opponent, take a look at this for a core:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712225515_japandroomland.jpg
70.98KB
Notice a certain Small Wonder can be made at Osaka... don't you just love thos random maps? [cry]
As for what the domestic future will bring for Persia, I will be researching Scientific Method next:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005712225642_f6advisor.jpg
65.17KB
A prebuild for the ToE is due in 5, after which the Hoover Dam will be constructed shortly after. When that is done, Persia will probably mobilize and stay that way until the end of the game, churning out only military builds, simply trying to overwhelm the opposition by brute force.. Giza can act as a great position at which units can be safely dropped in the west, limiting dangerous sea travelling, and infantries should provide enough cover to allow the cavs to do some real damage, or at least inflict such heavy losses that they will simply run out of units after which the final blow should be delivered.
Watch this space as the action unfolds.
digger760
13-07-2005, 09:51
Surely you have the technology and production to crush them now...hav'nt you noticed Stapels negativity in the open thread, it leads me to think he doesnt stand a chance against you.
I have to agree that Stapel indeed seems to think the game is over already... but he could be saying that just to lull me into overconfidence, since he obviously takes great pleasure in inflicting losses on my side. ;)
While I also think that my production and military strength are overwhelming (sounds arrogant perhaps bit I simply cannot say it differently), a major problem is logistics. Getting those troops to the other side is not an easy task, I've already seen frigates and privateers roaming the seas, and without a doubt ironclads are sure to follow.
I, on the other hand, am pathetic in the naval department. I only have 2 coastal cities capable of producing at an average rate (and even then only at 12 and 7 spt), and I've until now been forced to rush all my naval units, and even while I now have like 20+ coastal cities, they still all only produce at 1spt, thus leaving me ineffective in protecting my fleet, while endangering the core for berserk-attacks.
This is also the reason why I must keep Giza at all cost, since that is about the only free and relatively safe sea route to the other continent, and I need to keep that drop-off point open.
AHA, THERE YOU ARE!!
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722191238_matrixgalleons.jpg
86.39*KB
Well, it looks like some incredibly tense and action-packed turns are coming up in the DDPP, the 3-way war is now fully raging and Persia is forced into an almost fully defensive mode for now, even though production and commerce have skyrocketed once again after the palace was moved to another location.
As can be seen on the pic above, as expected matrix is trying to position his berserks into action, but first lets start with the western front, where a combined effort of Stapel and Matrix is threatening the last remaining 3 strongholds of Persia on the other continent.
Lets start with an overview of the battlescene, and the minimap, for reference purposes as to where on the world war is raging the most:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722215618_Thebigpicture1.jpg
82.35*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722215641_Thebigpicture2.jpg
120.63*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722215658_minimaptbp.jpg
6.17*KB
Persian cavalries are doing scouting missions all over the place there, to try and get an as best as possible view of the situation for general Kemal to decide his next moves on, and not without results, as can be seen here:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200572220435_battlescenewest1.jpg
106.47*KB
The stack of Stapel consists of 11 cavs, and 2 more of Matrix can be seen. I have 3 cavs available near athribis (2 can be seen, one more in Athribis itself together with a conscript inf), and 5 artillery, 1 catapult, 5 conscript infantry, 3 veteran infanty, and 13 more cavs in Giza.
While I could have opened fire on stapel's cavs with my artilleries and attacked them there, I did not want to risk losing it all, it would be 6 vs 6 there and with a little misfortune I could have ended up losing all my cavs for only half of Stapel's stack, and a closer look on the precise threat of these enemy cavs reveals that they might not be such a big worry as yet, and should be left alone for now for two reasons:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722204859_battlescenewest1japankleurtje.JPG
160.01*KB
At first sight, the stack can attack both Giza and Athribis from its current position, as well as my incense colony. Since I had decided that I would not attack these cavs, and considering that it is too long a walk for my infantries to reach Athribis, the obvious thing was to just abandon Athribis and purely focus on the two most important cities, Thebes and Giza. Once Athribis would be gone, only 3 possible targets remained, the colony, Giza and Thebes itself:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722205318_battlescenewest1thebesverdediging.JP G
163.13*KB
But, things might not be as grim as they look. As can be seen on the pic, Stapel's cavs are limited in their mobility because they do not start on a road, and the path to each target is only barely reachable... better still, with some pillaging of roads indicated by the red dots in the pic, the stack would become totally ineffective for next turn, as well as making reaching Thebes and Giza more difficult altogether.
Even better, with Athribis out of the way, and after attacking matrix's cavs, it turned out that if there were no enemies inside the blue lines in the pic, Thebes and Giza could not be attacked at all, if pillaging went as proceeded. This way, only matrix's two cavs would need to be taken care of by the 3 cavs near athribis, leaving the rest of the army for more useful purposes.
But unfortunately, attacking Matrix cavs posed two difficulties, as , after the first died easily, further scouting with the incense cav revealed yet another cav near Thebes:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200572221324_nogmeercav.jpg
102.46*KB
Since I could not complete my scouting trek first and still kill this cav safely (i.e. allowing my cav safe passage home) I decided to take the risk of killing it straightaway and complete my scouting trek afterwards. A mistake it turned out to be, as I lost my cav, and thus missed out on achieving both goals, the cav is still there and I miss some vital map knowledge. :(
Worse still, the final cav meant to take out the remaining straland cav near Stapel's stack, pillaged first and I simply forgot that once you pillaged, you can no longer attack for that turn... meaning that other cav is also still around, and I have taken refuge along with a conscript infantry on a nearby mountain.[blush2]
However, the artilleries succefully managed to "pillage" the tiles around Thebes and Giza.
But, there is good news as well.. While Thebes now needed protection due to my failed exploration and battles, there was also room to attack in the southeastern regions, since my 13 cavs there did not need to assist in defense. Here's what Matrix's lands looked like over there:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722211131_matrixland1.jpg
44.57*KB
Now, the second reason of rejoice over Stapel's stack becomes apparent... if I'd capture Tierveen, the cultural borders of Giza and Tierveen would create a "defensive line" which would result in a part of land shielded from those Japanese cavs due to lack of movement, thus allowing for a perfect place to set up an attack:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722211436_battlescenewesttierveen2.JPG
132.51*KB
Light green = Persian border
Dark green = Stapel's mobility
Yellow dot = assembly point
Yellow line = reinforcements
Once Tierveen could be captured, all remaining cavs would be fortified at the yellow dot, and reinforcements containing two workers and 2 vet infantry would be dropped via a nearby galleon. Because of the future railroad these workers would create, if Tierveen can be held, it would allow attacks on several Straland cities next turn:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722211943_matrixland1aanval.JPG
69.7*KB
Yellow dot = assembly point
Green line (around Tierveen)= Persian border
Green lines (towards Straland cities)= Persian attack route
Yellow line = reinforcements
Double red line = railroad
Single red line = known road (tileclicking)
Blue dot = possible pillage
As the pic shows, Leniken, Geosgracht and Weraveen can be threathened immediately, but what is better still, if Weraveen can be captured, a nearby galleon will unload 4 new cavs in that city, allowing a possible raid on even Terna and Faeriburg next turn.
And if geosgracht would fall, a suicide cav could pillage at the blue line, making retaliating Geosgracht more difficult.
Lots of planning, but we'll see how things unfold in coming turns... at the end of the turn, things looked like this in this region:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722213250_battlefieldendnorth.jpg
90.64*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200572221339_battlefieldendsouth.jpg
104.26*KB
Now, back to the opening pic of the spoiler, and the musings of the previous post on possible dangers to the Persian mainland. As was said there already, measures were taken against a possible invasion by berserks by Straland, followed up by cavalries, possibly causing massive destruction.. thanks to this scouting galleon, who with sheer luck ended up stumbling on 2 Straland galleons (though it is unfortunate that my galleon had no movement left, as now Matrix knows I have seen him), making this danger suddenly all the more a possible reality.
Assuming Matrix could make such a landing succesfully, here's what it immediately threatened by disembarking cavs, indicated by purple lines, and the purple border showing which cities can be threatened if no other city except a coastal one would fall. Finally, yellow lines are the vital railroad routes that allow cavs to reach mainland Persian core cities:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005722213749_botenmatrixoverviewdreiging.JPG
142.66*KB
Note that this includes the newly installed capital of Salamanca. Obviously I desperately need a navy, a few ironclads will be rushed next turn but atm I'm still carrying the burden of having to invent Scientific Method to allow my prebuilds to be a succes, plus having poor coastal cities (though the palace jump has seen a few decent productive coastal cities added to the Persian empire).
In the meantime, I'm just desperately stacking these cities with units, all coastal cities have at least 5 defenders, and several inland cities also have a few infs and cavs defending. Hopefully this will be enough to take care of the threat until more navy is online... as said, it is a blessing that I'm between Matrix and Stapel in turn order, otherwise all stapel's boats would have been problematic as well.
Of course, these probably won't be the only galleons Matrix has, these two obviously have been sent a long time ago, when we were still at peace, so it is not unlikely other "sneak attacks" are en route as well. Therefore, the western coast has been defended in the same manner, fortunately things are less dangerous there, if LoA would fall, massive cultural expansion of core cites further inland as well as lack of railroads around there could only threaten Centralia, Oka and Ergili. Since I can see all terrain around Hopjesvla from land where a possible galleon could make an attack run, it speaks for itself that Niagara falls, the only city allowing a full attack run on my lands, has been stacked with units since this pic was taken:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200572222910_matrixbotendreiging2.jpg
97.74KB
Again, it is pretty much all defending at the moment, the berserker threat causes me to lose my edge of military superiority for the moment, but I have to be patient... once the Hoover Dam is finished, as stated earlier, the Persians will go for mobilization and churn out units like crazy... especially now that the palace has been moved from Persepolis to Salamanca (courtesy of a leader generated attacking Hunt Valley, and the last contribution of Ruler Erikk to this game), the demographics look *very* kind to the Persians and shah Kemal:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200572221493_f11demographs.jpg
16.47*KB
The closest rival (Stapel) is at 256, while Matrix has to settle for about 80. To add to these statistics, in 4 or 5 turns, mobilization will start and the Hoover Dam and some new core-rushed-factories will be online, and Japan will see it's GA ended soon as well.
Domestically speaking, things are looking good, now to see if the war-gods will be kind to Persia as well in coming turns. Thread to be updated as the action unfolds!
As promised, another update as the Persians continue their righteous crusade against the evil Stalanders, as the Persian fist of fury clenches the first cities of Staland into an iron grip of suffering and destruction.
As has been indicated, two regular galleons have tried to sneak through the ocean seperating our continents... 2 ironclads has been rushed near the scene, and after initial exploration did not revela any galleon, it turned out these vessels had tried to run northwards to escape the Persian wrath... to no avail of course, one galleon rests with the fishes:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005731222153_matrixgevonden.jpg
41.65*KB
In the meantime, Persian scouts learned that, after all contact with the stranded infantry/cavalry groups on the mountain outside Thebes had been lost, the foul Japanese were to blame for this. However, the bulk of the Japanese army continues to cowardly hide themselves in their mountain position. Good for Persia, as they can't do much harm from there. One cav that did venture out on his own, likely the culprit of taking out the incense colony, was taken care of by fresh recruits from Thebes later on.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005731222427_stapelstildaar.jpg
97.13*KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005731222442_stapelstildaar2.jpg
24.48*KB
To conclude this turn's events... Straland only managed to take out one of the defending cavs from Tierveen, opening up the floodgates for a full-scale attack on most outer-rim Stralandic cities.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005731223052_tierveenhakkenmaar.jpg
37.03*KB
Battle hardened vets from the Iroquous/This wars were moved in via galleons to take control of the eastern part of Straland, but were halted at the gates of Faeriburg, were a 2 med infs managed to fend off a complete onslaught. They will hopefully be taken care of next turn.
Everything else went as planned, and one of the several elites involved in this raid even spawned another leader... no idea what to do with him yet, but he has boarded a galleon. Leneken was captured and abandoned, while Geosgracht was fortified with a few more cavs, and approach routes were cut off as best as possible.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005731223120_matrixveelkwijt.jpg
66.53*KB
We have noticed nationalism being discovered now by the Japanese-Straland alliance, and Straland has entered mobilization it seems, suddenly going over 100 mfg goods per turn. Things will be a lot tougher from now on, it seems...
On the bright side, ToE in 2, Hoover to follow in 2 more. :)
Matrix's Galleon was loaded with at least 2 berserks, he killed 2 cavs near Cattaraugus with them, as I did not have infs to spare yet to defend Cattaraugus with.
However, the people in Cattaraugus can sleep safely once again, with a Persian ironclad sinking Matrix's hopes of doing real damage there, along with those 2 berserks as well:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200583225735_invadersdestroyed.jpg
28.8KB
Meanwhile, in the inf-cave:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20058323050_stapeltargetpractice.jpg
52.27KB
Holy Cow, Infantries! Those are 14 Japanese vet cavs!
After pillaging the approach route to Tierveen for those cavs, it seems quite possible that the biggest battle so far will be taking place in Giza. 7 hits have been blown to smithereens using 6 artilleries, meaning another 49 hits need to be taken care of... -4 for defensive artillery, means a possible strike of 45 cav hits on Giza next turn.
The city has been fortified to the max, with 3 vet and 5 conscript infantry, plus an elite cav, all behind walls on hill, fortified.
Or in plain numbers, barring any retreats from stapel's cavs/promotions of my infs:
45 hits of 6 vs 22 hits of 22.5 + 5 hits of 6.75.
Odds in my favour (22.5/28.5 = 79% chance of winning per hit, i.e. of 45 combat rounds, Stapel should win about 9), but a loss cannot be ruled out here... all we can do now is wait and see what Stapel does.
In other news, Matrix took out my remaining cavs near Faerieburg, after they utterly failed to take the city last turn, and were left standing out in the open. Target practice indeed they turned out to be:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200583231559_matrixinfantryout.jpg
22.67KB
The rest of the armies near Straland healed up and took defensive positions, even though I managed to once again lose one cav attacking another cav of Stapel near Geosgracht. I hate those cav/cav battles.
Current year is 690 AD, and this will probably be my last update before the game ends. As can be read in the open thread, Matrix has requested to take over from Japan, fine with me since the time of peace is obviously long behind us, already the game had been a 2 vs 1 for quite some time.
2 turns ago, one turn after the previous update, the backbone of the Japanese army was crushed as the stack knows as the "Big 14" were located exposed to Persian artillery, cavs and infantries:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820162248_stapelcavs.jpg
42.71KB
After throwing everything at him but the kitchen sink, I managed to take out the entire stack, attacking his last few wounded cavs with conscript infs:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820162429_stapelcavsexit.jpg
99.48KB
While The remaining Persian task force on the western continent was heavily thinned out by now, as my defenses of that turn clearly show,
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820162543_scarcedefenses.jpg
69.68KB
it seems that the resistance of the western empires is broken. There has been little contact between Persian and enemy forces in the previous two turns, though taking out some med infs in Faeriburg, which was the isolated Straland empire I failed to take out earlier, resulted in me getting my third, and by now useless, leader in about 10 elite combats! I prolly should have kept it to rush a factory in my new core, with Hoover so close, but decided it might be fun to create an army -mind you this is a PTW game, armies are a waste here-and build Heroic Epic... not so, since I was mobilized, and for some reason Heroic Epic is deemed to be a non-militaristic build. [lol]
Fortunately, the military academy did show up in the build list.. [rolleyes]
Back on-topic: as said, life had been relatively peaceful for the past 20 years, as the ToE, Sun Tzu, and Hoover Dam were completed, and a new invasion force was being assembled and shipped over to the other continent.
Therefore, it took until 690 AD until a substantial new offensive was launched, Chaalveen being the primary target (hey that army is useful after all, perhaps!):
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820163423_armyaanvalrifles.jpg
80.65KB
With the city taken, and several infantries shipped in via Geosgracht to secure the site, about 15 new cavs wait to strike at 3 different cities next turn:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820163642_battlescene690AD.jpg
83.7KB
And of course, no game should be played without at least trying to "pull a Kemal", as fellow PBEM-er Erikk once called this phenomenon:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20058201793_traditie.jpg
44.19KB
In the meantime, production has skyrocketed in the homelands after Hoover Dam was finished this turn, clearly the difference between a PTW and C3C empire can be seen in effect here, considering factories still have to be rushed in about 75% of my new core:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820163828_demographs690AD.jpg
16.71KB
For comparison, here is how Persia's production output compares to the other two nations, all seem to be in war time mode:
1. Persia : 1251
2. Japan : 293
3. Straland: Unretrievable (below 131)
As one can imagine, military production is very fast, and I don't think it will be very long before Japan and Straland will be overrun.
Because of this, it looks like the victory will be a conquest vic, though domination also still seems a good possibility, looking at the minimap, and considering that Persian settler can be created in no-time:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005820165259_minimap690AD.jpg
7.44KB
Unfortunately, there is no victory status screen in PTW, and I do not have mapstat installed, so I have no idea how long that would take... but I guess the game - the first PBEM game I ever started - would be finished with more style via a conquest vic anyway, which, if things go as planned, will be my first ever conquest victory in civ3... in my last finished civ3 game as well?
To quote a certain Dutch football trainer: "Nu is de cirkel eindelijk rond.."
;)
Socrates
20-08-2005, 17:28
"Now the circle is at last round" says Babelfish. I see what you mean. :D French people would say "La boucle est bouclée."
Can't believe you're all still playing this game. Too bad that it is so hard to read, with so many pictures on one page. [blush2] And BTW, you're still playing Swimming Pool, right ? Your last Civ3 game ?
I think you deserve victory 100% in this game. All was planned from the beginning, impressive. And those stats are funny : "3. Straland: Unretrievable (below 131)". [lol] Is it the first 3+ PBEM you'll complete ? Have you ever lost a PBEM to some humans ?
digger760
22-08-2005, 10:36
Your last finished Civ3 game??? what about, Markstar's 16+ PBEM??? don't you plan on finishing that as well?
Probably a moot question, but, what is the diff b/w armies in PTW and C3C?
No, I don't intend to abandon those games I am in.
As for the armies, lots of differences there, in short, c3c armies rule supreme whereas PTW armies are worse than nothing.
Compared to C3C, PTW armies do not have the following abilities:
- no extra strength
- no extra moves
- no free pillaging
- adjusted, extremely slow health rates
- no blitz
- i.e. they are a total waste
Perhaps some others as well I can't think of atm.
Dont agree they are a total waste in PTW.
Armies will always:
- give you stacked power which makes your units considerably more effective. 3 vet units have 12 HP, if they taje 11 hits you only have one redlined unit left. In an army they all survive as one redlined unit.
- also in PTW the AI is reluctant to attack an army. Admittedly this reeks of AI exploit but very usefull nevertheless. DOesnt get you anywhere in a human-human game though.
Imo armies in C3C are way overpowered especially against the AI who doesnt have the foggiest how to handle them.
Hmm, that is true yes, so there are some uses for it indeed. :)
However, if you attack something with 12 hits and lose 11, something must already be seriously wrong with (the technological state of) your empire I think.
Main problem with armies is, imho, that they are way too slow as effective attack units. With this, I mean the amount of damage you can dish out per unit per turn. A cav army can only kill one unit per turn in PTW, while costing you the moves of 3 cavalries. Also, if that cav would take 5 hits, it would take 2 full turns in barracks to get it up to strength again.
In the same period, 3 cavs could have killed 3 units, all heal in a single turn in barracks (or if they took 1 or 2 hits even without barracks), and kill 3 other units again. I'd rather kill 6 units then 1, especially since survival rate of 3 cavs attacking defenders of moderately the same strength is quite high, considering they have a 50/50 to win, plus a better than 50/50 chance to retreat should things go wrong.
Also, are you sure in PTW armies weren't attacked? I know this is the case in C3C, where you can send in any army to pillage all the AI's resources for free (unless they have bombers), but in PTW I thought armies were attacked as well. Then again, I never did use them much, so you're probably right.
Very sure the comp wouldnt attack full health armies in PTW as well. I did an SG with KR in PTW a few years ago where we used this effect extensively. Once in a while the PTW AI does attack a full health army and in that case you'd always mysteriously lose. Seems our comp friends have quite an effective crystal ball there, but we already knew that from settling patterns (he, comp settled 2 tile tundra island quickly, must be oil there;))
I do agree armies in PTW are not that interesting attack wise, but the 'no attack bug' makes them excellent over-the-hill-units-pillaging machines and untouchable city/stack defenders.
digger760
22-08-2005, 14:12
hmmm, i am playing a PBEM that was originally in PTW, but now in C3C. But I get 4 movement points for an army, and i can also attack/kill more than one unit with it. This does not match with what you say about a PTW army, therefore i must assume that in changing to C3C, the army now operates under C3C rules. (where as some other aspects of the game is cleary PTW)
Despite my earlier words of not updating until the end, to put this back on topic, and to show how fast things are going... how close to domination do you guys think this would be?
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005822201846_domination.jpg
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Next turn I will launch a major strike on Japanese territory, most of the land seems to be railroaded so it should be easy to advance. About 25 cavs I think can participate in the attack, 25 others are waiting to be shipped.
The "pulling a Kemal" seems to become a total failure, it appears I've become predictable with this sort of stuff...:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005822202228_totalfailure.jpg
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The Persian core is now almost completely focused on building new units, here is what the homeland looks like atm, with espionage in 1, to which the military academy will shift:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2005822202141_Persia.jpg
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I estimate no more than 3 turns max now until the end of the game.
Final moments inside the Strastad defensive command center, as transmitted by the Persian spy embedded inside the Straland capital:
"okay people, I know the situation looks grim with Persia already having crushed the Japanese Empire with frightening ease, but I am convinced we can keep the capital for an indefinite time, our specially trained Imperial Riflemen should have no trouble fending off those wretched Persian cavalries. Keep me informed on the status of our defenses as the action unfolds, and make sure somebody keeps an eye on that annoying Japanese court jester we found in the rubble of Kyoto, apparently he must be someone important.."
...
"Sire, we have received reports that the Straland cities of Har has been taken, minor casualties reported, and over 20 regiments of Persian cavalries have been reported heading towards Strastad as we speak"
The Court jester started to sing.
"When you walk through the storm..." he whined nasally, "hold your head up high"
The commander screamed at him to shut up, but his voice was lost in the sounds of thundering hooves, as horses could be heard moving towards the capital.
"And don't... be afraid...of the dark!", the jester wailed.
the sound of gunshots could clearly be heard now, as the commander frantically tried to contact the officers at the forward defense post near the city gates..
"At the end of the storm...", crooned the jester.
Two regiments of cavalries could be seen charging towards the city from the palace windows.
"is a golden sky.."
Frantic defensive fire caused the cavalries to bank and turn in retreat.
"And the sweet silver song of the lark"... Two new regiments started their approach... "Walk on through the wind"
In despair, the commander saw the first casualty reports starting to come in as Imperial riflemen started to get routed by the ongoing stream of Persian armies..
"Walk on through the rain..." sang the jester
A thought occured to the commander. I'll stop them right here, none shall pass through that door..
"Though your dreams be tossed and blown.." the jester continued.
Cocking his gun, he took his position waiting for the first Persians to arrive.
"Walk on, Walk on, with hope in your heart..."
The sound of Persians inside the palace could now clearly be heard, as there seemed to be less and less resistance..
"And you'll never walk alone..."
The bolted door started to budge, as it was trying to be forced open from the other side... "You'll ne...ver...walk...alone!
As the door crashed open and Persians streamed inside the palace's inner chambers, the commmander though by himself, failing to achieve the Improbable:
"Disappointing, really..."
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1361&REPLY_ID=57765
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