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Beam
27-08-2004, 16:19
All 4 slots filled:
- akots (Russia or America, you want me to retype Yaroslav'l again Al? ;))
- Kingreno (Spanish)
- Matrix (Vikingers ;))
- Beam (Dutchies, why not)

Right now I am adding improvs and units to the Civs. Hoover as small wonder doesn't work, KR suggested to modify some ancient wonders in order to have 3 Hoover look-alikes, how about that?

Intro:
I've been thinking the last couple of days about a multi-human game that starts at the end of the Industrial Age, which is about equivalent to the early 20th century. Aim is to create a well-balanced map with some rules edited and a set of cities and units for each player to start with. Since creating such a map will take some time I'd like to know first who is interested and committed to play such a game. There are 4 slots and current idea is to put 4 AI in as well. The basics very much follow the Deathmatches prepared by Matrix. :)

* * * No aim to create an historically correct game, the following is just illustrational * * *

Setting:
The year is 1919 and the world is recovering from WW 1, The War to End All Wars. All nations are demilitiarizing rapidly and military equipment is taken apart and reworked for more peacefull uses. The world also sees the widespread introduction of recent technologies like motorized vehicles, airplanes, radio and massive waterworks. This causes an increasing requirement for resources not always available in sufficient quantities in the coal / iron based economies the human players control.

There also is a lot of turmoil and even revolution in many of these countries as an aftermath of the Great War to an extend that all human players start in Anarchy.

Science has been developing extremely fast in the previous decades although some predicted the end of Physics at the Fin de Siecle. Tsiolkovsky had developed the basics of spacetravel, the Curies had discovered radiation and Einstein written the Theory of Relativity. All this science still has to be put into practical usage.

Game:
All 4 human players start on a large island similar in size and terrain with about 15 cities with most improvements in place. Only light defenses are in place. There still is equipment remaining from the war but offensive capabilities are removed prior to scrapping. Electronics is the last mandatory tech of the age. As said all start in Anarchy, all types of government are available however. Humans only have one trait: Religious.

AI players sit on a cross-shaped continent with the cross-section at the centre of the map and branches extending N-S and W-E. They are backward in tech both know what Oil and Rubber is. Not just that, they control all of what's available on the map. AI and human players have similar starts, AI terrain does contain more jungle and desert. Since there should be an active AI Demi is the preferred level imo.

Goal:Win by either conquest, domination, space race or culture.

Planned edits:
- Remove UN as a wonder
- Hoover and Manhattan become Small Wonders
- MechInfs become available with Miniaturization (extending the usability of Tanks)
- Battleships and Artillery are removed of offensive capabilities (each player gets a bunch however as a source of shields)
- Strategic Missile Defense becomes available with Smart Weapons
- All Ancient, Medieval and Industrial Great Wonders are made obsolete.
- Edit all participating Civs to have just Religious as trait
- Reveal map for all players

Some to be worked on:
- Way for each player to trigger a golden age
- Prevent the first human player to take big advantage of techtrading with the AI in turn 1
- How to put Uranium and Alu in the map without me knowing it as a player
- Put some limits on nukes, i.e. no ICBM's, make Tacticals more expensive etc.
- Decrease pop polution.

Civs:
Could be any since I plan make them identical in capabilities.

Epilogue
Please post if you're interested and/or have any suggestions about the 20th Century Contest. Requirements:
- Committed to play at a pace of 2-4 turns a week.
- Feeling comfortable at emperor and up.

Beam
27-08-2004, 18:26
Here is a first peek at the map, every single tile is put in by hand! The 4 AI are at the branches of the cross, the first island for a human player is left upper hand.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004827182428_20ccminimap.jpg
7.48KB

Some playtesting showed that pop pollution is rampant with many cities over size 12, for the time being I've assigned Courthouses the task of reducing it. Might as well consider to move Mass Transit to the IA and include it in the standard list of improvements.

Kingreno
27-08-2004, 19:43
In for sure![cool]

I am not an endgame expert but I'll try to add some views.

First, it might be nice to add seafaring as a trait to all civs (or just increase boatspeed) as to make naval wars more do-able.
Second, a far heavier issue, C3C has a "new" unit which makes or breaks: The Bomber. It is huge, costs are low, with 3 rate of fire, great range and LETHAL land AND SEA bombing. In the few games I have played all the way to Flight these monsters always kicked in too much. They should be tuned down IMO.
Balancing the map with Aluminium and Uranium is not easy. It may be best to fix them on a Known place to everyone. Also, these jumpy resources should be "unjumpied", so no player gets no nukes all of a sudden. This is debatable, but in the end the boring fixed resources do provide a better game.

Will add more later when the discussion unfolds, for now, looking forward to it![goodjob]

akots
27-08-2004, 23:08
It looks very interesting. Would be a challenge to play but probably less than challenge to make it balanced.

First, would not it be better without AI?
Second, how to avoid use of nukes? May be, have a convention that no nukes to be used against a player which has nukes? This means, nukes only can be used against a player who does not have nukes. Also, it might be possible to simulate weapon race. There can be a rule, for example, that players must maintain a certain pool of nukes, lets say 10 ICBM or tacticals if ICBM are erased?
Third, moving Mass Transit to Industrial Age (Steam Power) would be balancing.
Fourth, is the map that you are creating symmetrical? It better be to a certain extent, may be not exactly.
Fifth, if the AI still remains, may be tweak it a little bit by offensive-defensive flags on units to build?
Sixth, no Golden Age seems fine as well as no unique units.
Seventh, bombers might be unbalancing only against AI but subs would be unbalancing against human players as well.
Eighth, just do not give AI any tech or cash or workers or resources which human players do not have, hence they would have nothing to trade on turn 1. But they should have Embassies with everyone. To make life even more balanced, AI can be put heavily on the defensive by flagging defensive units and by moving alliance tech to something which AI cannot have (need a flavor setting).
Nineth, since the map would be revealed to all players, just put uranium and aluminum somewhere where all can see them by moving the requirements to reveal these resources from where they are now. Which means, you can see where they are but still do not know what to do with them. Which I think is true more or less and corresponds to what is in RL.

Long post and probably stupid. :)

Beam
28-08-2004, 16:41
Sorry for the late response ppl, forum has been down most of the time :(

@KR: Welcome! :)

This setting was choosen because in most PBEM's the Modern Age is never reached so most players won't have a lot of experience in it and it is always nice to try something new.

Seafaring: good idea.

Bomber stats:
- Cost 100
- Bomb Strenght 12
- Range 10
- RoF 3

It is just to cheap for its capabilities, als the Bombard Fx flag is not set in the editor! Will fix the flag, how about increasing the cost to say 160?

Let's put U and Al in upon completion and unjump all resources.

@akots, long post indeed but most are valid points imo. May I assume you want to take a slot as well?

Ad 1: The AI is there for a number of reasons:
- The extra challenge
- All AI will turn against you if you use nukes
- The extra options for how to play

Ad 2: As said the AI is the first limiter on nukes. It is silly to allow nuking of players having no nukes imo because they can't really retaliate. I'm thinking of increasing the cost of Tacticals to 500 and have a rule that only one/turn can be used.

Ad 3: Indeed, we should have pop polution available at the start of the game, otherwise it is just spoiling fun. Right now courthouses do the job, I can leave it like that or give every city a Mass Transit. Please give your preference.

Ad 4: The map is very symmetrical. All islands for the human player ary nearly identical and I made sure that transports can move city to city in one turn with seafaring. That is to cities on the AI landmass. If you like me to bring more variety in the islands keep in mind that it will be quite some work to maintain the balance.

Ad 5: What exactly do you expect as result from the tweaking?

Ad 6: I do not really have a preference as a player about the Golden Age, as scenario builder it is much easier not to have them! KR, what's your view here?

Ad 7: Guess you are referring to the sub bug, i.e. run in to them and there is war? The human player can avoid it by sending destroyers with other ships and be careful with subs in AI neighboorhoods imo.

Ad 8: All will start with embassies. About the resources: my idea was to create scarce resources both for the AI and human to encourage trading, i.e. humans have Coal and Iron excl., while AI has Rubber and Oil. This will also influence decisions about trading or securing by invasion! I am more concerned about how to make a rule to avoid that player 1 in turn 1 gives trades everything away so blocking trading options for the human player. The rule could be something like one tech allowed for trading for the first couple of turns. Alternatively I can give the AI the same techs as the human players. Please give me your preference!

Ad 9: Maybe it is best to make both Uranium and Aluminium available to all players once the related tech is researched.

Oh, can both of you post the Civ you like to play and the Civs you want for the AI? It is all about names since every civ will get the same capabilities.

Wow: long reply [eek]

UNITS

Starting units for humans:
10 Workers
16 Inf
4 Tanks
9 Arties (no range, no strength)
2 Transports
4 Destroyers
9 Battleships (no offensive capabilities)
2 Fighters

Pic of the map with on human island basically done.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004828164456_20ccminimapculture.jpg
13.75KB

Matrix
28-08-2004, 20:07
I'm in! I'm in! :D

Kingreno
28-08-2004, 20:57
I would like to play the Spanish. the rest as it is written sounds great![cool]

Matrix
28-08-2004, 23:18
I'd like to be the Vikings. http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/Viking.gif

akots
28-08-2004, 23:20
I'm certainly in but it looks like heavy modded indeed without arty and battleships. As I understood, arty has defensive bombard only? And battleships as wel?

What I was thinking about the flags is that to get Mech Inf and infantry offensive flags off. And encourage the AI to builf Anti-Air units like SAM and Flak and FIghters. Bombers are OK IMO, you still need many of them and they are very vulnerable to fighters.

As I understood, we start in Anarchy and can choose any government. I would like to exclude Communism. This SPHQ makes it unreasonably powerful in the human hands. But if others agree to leave it as an option, I'm fine with it.

We can always playtest for a couple of turns and if something is really badly broken, just restart all over again.

And Civ preference - none, just something, may be Russia, may be US, whatever is left.

Beam
29-08-2004, 00:22
quote:I'm certainly in but it looks like heavy modded indeed without arty and battleships. As I understood, arty has defensive bombard only? And battleships as wel?

Welcome akots! :) The mods only go to the extend where they suit the game, no modding for the modding. I am also playtesting all mods and everything else in the scenario as good as possible. This sometimes means something does turn out different like Hoovers. I'd really like to know from all of you if a Hoover look-alikes should be put in or if we go for Big Plants by hand.

I'll put Mech and Inf flags in testing and see what can be done with flak type of units.

About Gov types, every city starts without Police Stations. Also techrace is part of the game and the empires we start with are pretty compact. All of this is not really in favor of Commie, but I could have missed something. Input appreciated!

About playtesting, fully agree. I'll do my utmost to make a smooth start but plan to have a health check after turn 5.

Matrix
29-08-2004, 12:06
I'm against any modding, but will go along with the majority. [tongue] The only things I agree with is earlier mass transit and later mech inf.

akots
14-09-2004, 18:27
@Beam: Any progress? Just curious...

Beam
14-09-2004, 19:39
Don't worry akots, it is in progress. It is just a lot of work placing cities and units while testing it still loads ok. Work schedule keeps me busy so I hope to have a first playable version 2nd half of the month. :)