View Full Version : Kemal vs. ProPain deity head to head *spoiler*
Current dat is 690 AD, you can see spoilers until about 400 AD at this site: http://www.xs4all.nl/~erikkost/1.html
Please feel free to post your comments on this game below. Additional spoiler info for this game will be posted here shortly.
If your CFC nickname is ProPain, please stop reading now. :)
Kemal
digger760
07-04-2003, 16:41
I've been lurking yours and propains site, there has been no updates in ages. What is going on
So, time for the Arabian empire to release some of its formerly classified documents about what's been happening since the end of the Arab-American war and bring you lurkers up to date on the current situation. Here's a minimap of my current (710 AD) empire, with both capitols located at the green dots:
Image Insert:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2003489130_minimap710AD.jpg
27.38*KB
As far as military business is concerned, after the Americans were wiped out I've been able to concentrate all my forces on the Zulus, who until then had only been fighting a few ansars and some muskets. With about 20 ansars leading the attack, the Zulus wouldn't be much of a challenge, but in this war I had some special objectives, not necessarily the destruction of the Zulu empire as a whole.
I had noticed earlier that the Zulus no longer needed horses even though they did not have any themselves, and as they did not know anybody else except ProPain, I knew that he was either trading or gifting them resources to aid them in their war against me, and I also knew that (probably in return) ProPain was recieving wines from the Zulus (you can see how I knew that in a later post below). A fortunate thing was that the Zulus had been very lazy in building their harbors so when I started attacking them in 500 AD they only had 2 in their whole empire, both located just south of Zimbabwe. Getting these cities under control would mean and end to Zulu knights and maces, and much more importantly denying ProPain wines and give Arabia the monopoly on this luxury. (And thinking even further in the future, a rephit for ProPain once Carthage finally meets Zululand and they hear how mean ProPain has been in breaking the wines deal.:D
Here's a pic from just after I cut the Chinese-zulu trade in 570 AD:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Harborssecuredg.jpg
The execution phase of the Arabian warplan "wine will be mine" gave enough spectacular events to talk about for Arabian war veterans for years to come:
firstly, the brutal Arab-Zulu war and its fierce, isolated montain battles produced situations were ordinary soldiers needed to stand up and take control of their units, which resulted in 3 new leaders being created in the war, as opposed to zero in the much larger Arab-american campaign. Unfortunately, one of those leaders was Mpande of the Zulus who cowardly made his way back to Zululand backed up by some impies, and was thus able to escape Arabian retribution and form an army of maces.
However, 2 were Arab leaders, one rushed the Palace in Boston to minimize corruption in the Arabian Democracy, while the other started a very succesful trading company in one of the former zulu cities which would pay for maintenance of all trade related buildings from now on. [cool]
But the Zulus also had some tales to tell, I suppose. Their pikes had high rates of success against my ansars, who in their quest for revenge sometimes forgot they were "fast" units and fought until the bitter end even when losing, and, when talking to arab war vets, let nobody speak about "the mounted Horror", a sole knight unit produced by the Zulus who singlehandedly defeated 4 ansar (1 elite)[:o] and recaptured the city of Isandhlwana before finally being taken out by Arab reinforcements.
In the current situation, peace between Zululand and Arabia has been restored. Shaka and his few remaining followers have been banished to the northernmost city of Ulundi, and in exchange for his life he has ceded control of the island-city of Umtata in the northwest.
While the progress of the military campaign against the Zulus is of course something both the Arabian leadership and people can be proud and satisfied with, the domestic situation is even more of a reason to rejoice. After the construction of the palace in Boston and the change to democracy the commercial productivity of the Arabian empire skyrocketed, mainly because of an entire set of size 12 cities (former Amercian core-cities) suddenly becoming productive.
Due to this increase in commercial activities, Arabia entered the industrial age in the year 600 AD, and with steam power soon to follow Caliph Kemal ordered a vast increase in the Arabian worker force to prepare for a north-south railroad connection of the empire, which would allow military units to reach every part of Arabia without effort, greatly helping the empire's defence, and making a possible Chinese invasion of Arabia virtually impossible. Note that at the time I was at peace with China again (since 550 AD) after the ending of the "AI bribewar years", but still I gave home defenses high priority, just in case.
The current (710 AD) Arabian research project is electricity, and our nearest (scientific) rival, Carthage, has only just entered the Industrial age, with the Chinese even further behind, still requiring Physics, Magnetism and Theory of Gravity to go industrial.
Railroads are being made at a fast rate to even further increase the productivity of Arabia. To illustrate this great period in Arabian history, take a look at the latest powergraph (710 AD):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/power710AD.jpg
Note that after a period of Chinese hegemony in the powergraph, the Arabian empire is now about even in power compared to China and growing. Here's another - highly classified - screenshot strenghtening Arabian confidence, showing the 710 AD demographics of the Arabian empire:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Demographs710AD.jpg
I'm currently ranked first in all major categories except landmass, and by manually decreasing my gnp by changing pop to entertainers in my core cities I know that the nearest rival in gnp only has 721, probably Carthage, and in Mfg goods number 2 has 251 Mtons, probably ProPain.
While i have been making my way through the tech tree I have also been busy monitoring the Chinese progress as best as I could.
After the destruction of America the Chinese were almost equal in science, due to them capturing the Japanese city of Nara and thus benefitting from the free techs given by the Great Library. However, using the trick as described above, I had noticed that around that time the Chinese empire's gnp was about 370, and considering the proximity of both Chinese palaces (the Chinese FP is almost certainly located in Macao, which has been a large city in the early ages and was the only city far from Beijing to expand culture for a long time), a large protion of this number would be corruption.
This meant that actually doing his own research was probably not an option for the Chinese, leaving only 3 other options: buying techs from the AI, extort them during peace negotiations, or steal them using espionage. Since ProPain has been in monarchy throughout the game, I expected him to have a very large military (I'm weak against him) and thus use method 2 combined with method 1 (a false gpt trade ) to acquire technological advances. This presumption was strengthened by the fact that he declined to buy Chemistry from me for a price that was certainly below the AI asking price, and that he was still at war at with Carthage after we has signed peace in 550 AD.
And indeed, the chinese had knowledge of Chemistry once peace had been signed with Carthage, but much to my surprise it seemed that he didn't get it for free: When I contacted Carthage that turn, they had a staggering 93 gpt on offer for Physics, and although I'm not sure I have the feeling that Carthage receives part of this money from China. I immediately sold Physics meaning that if ProPain pays Hannibal money it now flows directly in my treasury, and it's a much larger sum than the 60 gpt I was willing to sell Chemistry for. :)
To my surprise the peace between China and Carthage has lasted so far, maybe indicating he didn't buy it gpt after all and the sudden increase in Carthage's wealth was just a coincidence. If not, it sure looks like an expensive price to pay for just chemistry.
But it appears that Propain has also been using method 3, espionage! Once I signed peace with ProPain I decided that it might be wise to do an investigation of a small Chinese city to see what his current tax-settings were, and how much gold he had in his treasury. I chose the city of Echizen, and it proved my theory that Propain wasn't going to do research himself, as his tax rate was at 90% (and his luxury at 10%):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Echizen_580AD.jpg
It was comforting to learn his treasury wasn't that large, but this investigation proved to be very valuable in later years. In 640 AD not very long after ProPain had acquired Chemistry, he had learned the secret of Metallurgy! Only I and Carthage knew metallurgy at that time, and since time had been too short for ProPain to develop it himself with his low gnp, and since Hannibal didn't have any money, I was fairly certain he had stolen it from me or Carthage. I immediately investigated another small city, Echigo this time (it only costed 35 gold each time) and my suspicions were confirmed:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Echigo_640ADc.jpg
ProPain's treasury had gone from 2484 to 208 in 6 turns, a loss of more than 2200 gold, which is about the cost of an attempt to steal technology. I do not know from whom he has stolen it, but if I find out he steals any techs from me I'll immediately declare war on him as I see this as an act of war. but he probably stole it from Carthage anyway.
To find out whether any further espionage attempts were to be expected shorthly, I investigated Echigo again the next turn to see how much money he made each turn:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Echigo_650ADg.jpg
Only a 127 gold increase, meaning that the next attempt would be at least 20 turns away. Note that this is also how I knew for certain that ProPain was receiving wines from zululand, and also note how he isn't getting them anymore in the last screenshots.
With the economical and scientific lead in hand President Kemal and his staff of advisors are currently into heavy discussions on how to capitalize on this advantage. Although a general idea has been agreed upon, their is still much to be discussed and thought about, expect the results of that process in future updates.:)
Wow, excellent analysis!
Of course I can't tell you if you're right or not. [no]
As you might have read already in the open thread on CFC it looks like Propain is receiving some foreign aid from his friends the Koreans, who have decide to freely give him 17 gpt in exchange for NOTHING! Bah!
I think I know what has happened though, another PBEM bug and Propain is profiting from it. During the previous turn, I've sold the Koreans saltpeter (in a large deal involving Steam power), and my guess is that, since the Koreans' turn is packed between ProPain's and mine, during their own turn they transmitted an offer to China (but not to me?[confused]) to buy saltpeter from him for 17 gpt. Since they now no longer need it because they are getting it from me, he (ProPain) can no longer supply them with saltpeter but the Koreans part of the transmitted offer stands, meaning he gets 17 gpt for free.[sad]
On a positive note though, President Kemal is proud to announce the latest technological innovation, Replaceable Parts. Learned in 780 AD, implementation of this new technology means a substantial increase in worker efficiency, allowing for quicker construction of terrain improvements. Also, large queues of funny dressed soldiers with bags of gunpowder and muskets have appeared near Boston's military department to trade their clothes and weapons for something more fitting, greatly increasing their defensive strength. :D
*TOP SECRET* CLASSIFIED INFORMATION* TOP SECRET*
Smuggled out of ANSA's (Arabian National Security Agency) military compound for you to view, take a look at this pic...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/TheStack.jpg
Please use extreme caution to make sure this information remains hidden from the Chinese Empire and their leader Chairman Propain.
More information will be added shortly.
So, time to let you guys in on a top-secret plan that has so far only been known to the top of the Arabian leadership. While making satisfactory progress on empire development and economic growth, the Arabian empire has also covertly been focusing on strengthening its military apparatus, and for a long time already have been considering a most daring plan, an open attack on the Chinese empire.
The Hatching of the plan
The first prelimanary ideas and considerations of a possible attack on the Chinese date back from the dark period of warfare between the Arabian and American empires, during which the Chinese invoked a breach in until then flawless peace and cooperation between the /chinese and Arabian empires. Without any warning whatsoever, the Chinese had set up the entire world against Arabia, leaving us with no trading partners or friends over the world except for the Japanese, who were at that time being slaughtered by Chinese riders.
As I was close to researching navigation at that time, I was already pondering at a possible strike with ansars against East-China but I deemed it too dangerous to be worth the costs, and also every ansar was necessary at the home continent to fight of the zulus and the last of the Americans. Also, I figured such low-profile attacks of a few ansars wouldn't cause any serious damage to the Chinese, so I originally discarded the idea as not-executable.
However, some time later the worrying outcome of a scientific survey held by the outstanding arabian geologist Ibn Mapstat forced President Kemal to once again review the old plans, as Mapstat's alarming conclusion was that even if Arabia was able to secure it's entire own continent, it wouldn't be enough to keep China from possible world domination, and the alarming rate at which the Japanese cities fell and a war with Carthage had started, it became apparent that something had to be done.
As I did not know whether ProPain was also planning an attack on me, I decided not to go for a risky attack with ansars but to wait until a better opportunity presented itself. As I had already seen my empire was economically better, I opted to go for all-out scientific research, outresearching even the AI to take a huge scientific lead, with the techs of Steam Power and Replaceable Parts as main focus to increase military strength and empire production. ProPain's proposal of a 32 turn peace in 550 AD gave me just about enough time to research these techs.
Now, the time has come to finally execute this military project, dubbed "Polar Kraken".
The current year is 830 AD, and the peace treaty between China and Arabia will end in the year 880 AD, giving me 50 more years (5 turns) to put my army into place. Here's how I plan to deploy troops in the east of China:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Battle-plans.jpg
My stack of galleons will be covertly coming from the polar regions to the south and rendez-vous at the rally point on the green dot in 870 AD, still out of sight of China. In 880 AD, they will move in near the Chinese city of New Xinjian, landing on defensive positions, most likely just west of the city to allow an attack next turn. If not possible, two other sites are also possible, both allowing a cavalry attack on New Xinjian, and the main target, the (probable) Chinese FP city of Macao.
during the 880 AD turn, 3 ironclads will try to bombard the coastal road near the city of Chengdu, marked with the white dot, cutting off an important route of possible Chinese reinforcements from the West, forcing them to take the long route through the mountains. (marked with the blue line).
Just after this initial wave, a 2nd, smaller task force will arrive at the Chinese's most eastern part of their empire, trying to occupy the city of New Chinan:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/2ndWave.jpg
2 galleons carrying some infantries and cavalries will navigate to the yellow dot and drop off the armies at the red dot. As the Chinese will hopefully have focused on protecting Macao, they'll try to take over New Chinan and then try to cut off road acces to the city by destroying roads at the white dots, supported by ironclad bombardments. This could give us mainland base of operations near to our own continent, allowing quick ferrying of troops and healing.
As a final pic, here's the current 830 AD situation zoomed out.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/TheBigPicture.jpg
Note that the shield of naval units around East-china has been operational for quite some time now to monitor chinese naval activities in case of a sudden attack on my home continent.
Failure of the operation will not be catastrophic as I hope my empire can still overcome any dramatic losses due to the fact that my production (shields) is much larger than ProPain's, thus being able to recover quickly. I'm currently researching espionage, which will be completed at 870 AD and a prebuild for the Intelligence Agency is underway, so with some luck I'll be able to get some good readings on the Chinese military strength (I'm currently ranked average, I estimate he has about 80 cavalries operational, but not all will be stationed in the East if I can remain hidden with my stack.).
I'm also thinking about proposing another peace deal in 870 AD to give ProPain at least one option to prevent this war, but it will be under my conditions, which could be quite heavy, I'm not sure about what those will be yet.
If "Polar Kraken" will indeed be given the green light and war breaks out expect extensive documentation of the war in this thread.
And finally, just as a precaution, once again please make sure to not even hint at what you've read here to ProPain, as logically any knowledge he might have of this will greatly influence the course of the game. Naturally, if you want to comment on the things I've written in this thread make sure not to reveal any info that you got from ProPain's spoiler and should not be available to me. Thanks.
Kemal
Seems that ProPain doesn't even have RR (no industrial "look"). So, if he has positioned his forces near his nothern borders, you will suprise him completely! Very good play Kemal! Anyway you will have infantry protecting your cav's. His cavalry will not do that much damage!
Attack him now you can!
digger760
11-04-2003, 15:55
WOW, thats fantastic Kemal. now i'm off to propains thread to see what he's upto.
shshhhh mums the word[talk]
War! [eek]
Got any more info Kemal?? :D
Where are the pics? :satan:
Ok, it's now official. In the year 880 AD President Kemal gave the green light for operation "Polar Kraken" to commence. The first stages of the operation have been executed according to plan, with Arab troop making a landing just west of New Xinjian, and the 2nd wave of troops just nortwest of New Chinan (but not on the red dot as that square was occupied). The road north of Chengdu has been destoyed by ironclad bombardments. Unfortunately, my attempt of placing a spy failed, so I do not know the exact strength of China yet.
The first wave of troops consists of:
- 24 well trained veteran infantries
- 8 high speed veteran cavalries
The 2nd, smaller wave near New Chinan consists of:
- 6 veteran infantries
- 6 veteran cavalries
Investigation of the nearby cities of New Xinjian, Macao, Ningpo, Tientsin revealed that each was defended by either a musketman or a med inf, and all these cities also had a cav present. All of them are currently building cav, and are nearly finished with those (2 turns). As expected, Macao is indeed the location of the FP.
New troops will be ferried to China shortly.
As I stated in the post above, I did give ProPain a final chance to maintain peace but the conditions were brutal, and I didn't expect him to accept. The offer consisted of ceding control of the cities of New Chinan as well as his cities on the northern archipelago, and 60 gpt. He was willing to offer something in exchange for peace (a lux, or some agreements about not getting all cities on the archipelago), but as he wasn't going to discuss any deal involving New Chinan, peace talks broke down as both parties prepared for war. We have agreed not involve the AI civs in our conflic except for triggered MPP's.
During negotiations, I was under the impression he didn't expect the attack so soon, I'm reasonably positive I'll be able to do some serious damage with this first attack, but only time will tell. I'll post per turn reports on the progress of the war in this thread, so you'll probably see another update later.
Kemal
If you destroy his FP you have almost won...
Also, are you that far ahead in tech? Does he have infantry yet?
Can you destroy the FP, that is the question!
No FP = totally fucked
Macao is of course the prime target, and Propain probably realizes that as well. Therefore, doing some serious damages to his other core cities might be a seious option to consider too. I estimate at least 25% of his total mfg goods to be located in the "Macao plains", so razing some cities will be a terrible blow to his empire.
I'm pretty far ahead in techs, I've been researching all most all techs since physics at 4 turns, while ProPain has only stolen/traded for metallurgy and Mil. Tradition so far.
Should my attack result in total failure, I still have a tech lead and thus diplomatic and space race victories as backup.
Why dont you just build your spaceship Kemal? Have you been fooling us??? ;)
As posted in the open thread on CFC, the game has come to an end as ProPain has decided to resign. He informed on MSN that the bulk of his army was away near the Korean and Carthaginian borders, and that he was unable to prevent my landing force from razing his FP or other core cities. In the end, except for some bombardments no shots have been fired in operation "Polar Kraken".
To wrap the game up, here are screengrabs of the most important game statistics of the Arabian empire in 880 AD:
The Demographics:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/finaldemographs.jpg
The domestic advisor:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/finaldomestic.jpg
The military advisor:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/finalmilitary.jpg
The powergraph:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/finalpower.jpg
The science advisor:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/finalscience.jpg
We have already agreed that a revanche match will be played later, date to be decided.[cool]
Congrats Kemal! Nice suprise attack, well done!
Read up on your thread here, still have to check your site.
On the zulu horses, I gifted every single double resource/luxury to the Zulus. Not sure where I got the wines from, but IIRC from a tech I traded to the zulu's. Would it be different the rephit didnt matter anyway, both koreans and carthaginians hated me anyway. Also the lack of wines didn't matter to me, theone advantage of monachry I guess.....
Stealing techs: I never stole any tech, but researched Mil Trad. on 10% That's why i took so incredibly long and I was behind on the tech front in general. The cash decrease was due to the upgrade from riders to cav's.
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