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anarres
09-05-2004, 20:28
Due to the evidence of Sky manipulating save games in more than one of his ladder matches we have taken the following action:

* Skyfish is banned from the ladder for a period of 6 months. Re-admission will be evaluated at that time if Skyfish wishes to join. If re-admission is allowed it will be as a "new" player, with 2500 points.

* All of Skyfish's games in the ladder will be awarded as wins to the other player. This will take some time to administrate, so please be patient.

* Skyfish is now banned from the ISDG, there is some potential for this to change, but this is dependant on Skyfish's actions in the future.

* Skyfish has been removed as moderator from all fora. This also has potential for change, the main reason for this is that Skyfish has not yet talked to us about this issue.


Notes:

The thread with the save game analysis is here: http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1766

You do not need to check your previous games with Skyfish in the ladder for evidence of cheating. Whether you find evidence or not, the actions taken against Skyfish will not change.

We will now start checking other games for irregularities. If any are found the action taken on a case-by-case basis. To facilitate this we request that everyone keeps a copy of the saves (for each turn) for their games. If this is an issue for anyone because of hard-drive space we can arrange an email address to send saves to on a turn-by-turn basis, which will mean no extra hard drive space is required.


ProPain and anarres.

ProPain
09-05-2004, 22:41
I personally regret this happened, I hoped we'd never had to go through this. Although Sky hasn't admitted he manipulated his games I can't think of another explanation. I hope this is a one time thing and we don't need to instate a checking procedure for all games from now on. That's not what CDZ is about for me, I'm here to play for fun not to police the ladder games.

I would like to ask everybody to keep things civilized when posting on the subject. It would be great for CDZ if we can leave this behind us quickly and continue, hopefully with sky still around.

PP

anarres
09-05-2004, 22:43
I understand people will be angry, upset, and may feel betrayed by this. I certainly went through all those emotions when ProPain and myself started investigating this issue last week.

We should try to remember that we are talking about a GAME here. Those of us that have met Sky (especially those of us who met him in RL) know he is a kind and generous person, and after my initial outburst of emotion that is still how I think of him.

Please keep your comments civil if you can, and note that Skyfish is NOT banned from CDZ. Nor will anyone be banned from CDZ because they cheated in a game.

Aggie
09-05-2004, 23:22
Naturally I'm shocked about it. And I agree that these games should be changed to losses for him. But I really hope that Sky stays at CDZ, because he has done some very important things here (map making for instance). I also like to continue the pbem i play vs him... I agree with anarres, I think it was great to meet Sky (twice) in RL...

Pastorius
09-05-2004, 23:42
I am lost for words...

Kingreno
10-05-2004, 00:00
greetings,

It is with great sadness that I read the "evidence" against Skyfish in the post made by Kemal. It is obviously the topic of the day that there is something like this happening at CDZ.
I too, am very upset, but it is now and here that we must make an ethical point. This has to be discussed, not in a witch-hunt-way, not in a fingerppointing-way, but in a mature way. This will not be easy.
The case. Skyfish is supposed to have used a program called c3mt to tweak saves to gain advantage in his Pbems, mentioned specificly above. The tweaks have in all cases been subtle yet very decicive. Skyfish has claimed innocence unofficialy, meaning he is yet to react publicly on this forum. However, I agree with others that it is very unlikely that Sky has not done this.[sad]
What we do not know is whether he supposedly cheated in other games.

What now. Besides the obvious measures undertaken by our hosts anarres and PP, what do we want to happen here? I for one am fully behind (e.g.) aggie and anarres in that Skysish and the others got (and get!) along great on the fora and we met in RL as well! That was great too!
Skyfish has done something bad, but if we want to get him into a acceptable position among us here at CDZ again, I feel he has to react to the why-question. On our part, we must not bombard sky with senceless PM's or anything else. Every man has a right to defend himself, and I call upon all to please allow sky to do this.

If skyfish chooses not to do so it is also his choice. But I feel his honor will drive him to give a reaction. At least, I hope so.

This reply mey seem a bit unstructured but it is just too weird atm.

Socrates
10-05-2004, 00:04
I must be dreaming or something. [eek]

I thought Skyfish was one of the most trustful players here, so I can't take all of this for granted before he has recognized it. There surely must be something that you overlooked, but I can't tell what. [hmm]

As for my game vs him, I deleted all the save files from my hard drive, since the game was completed. I don't know for him. I still think he didn't cheat in our game (and thus deserves a great victory), but maybe he did ? I am not a known great player here, so I don't think he was tempted to cheat vs me. I would ask you to keep his victory until it was proved he cheated vs me (how ? dunno).

I hope it's just a misunderstanding, and I hope Skyfish will be around again. Just consider the time he took for Civ here, and you'll know he's a great player and mate. (and yes I'm always kind to people :D )

anarres
10-05-2004, 00:10
kryszcztov, please check the analysis thread again to see why we came to this decision.

I am certain that the save files were edited - there is simply no way to "gain" techs for free in the game, as happened in all 3 games. This itself is enough, but there is more evidence there too, such as contacts from nowhere and workers "gaining" a turn for forrest chopping. There are 3 games that show definite evidence of outside editing, there is simply no other explanation in my mind.

Regarding your game vs sky - we have made our decision based on these 3 games. Whether or not there was cheating in your game is immaterial to the decision, which is that all of sky's games are to be recorded as losses for him.

As to your final sentiments about sky being a mate: I hope I already made myself clear that I would very much like sky to be around at CDZ for a long time. :)

akots
10-05-2004, 01:35
Wow! This is weird! But why it took so long to find out? 11 games and nobody payed any attention? Sure this would cause a major mess in ISDG UN. Don't envy your CDZ team. Well, at least you are honest and made this public. Major kudos for that to Anarres and ProPain! should have been a tough decision.

Must keep all the saves then and go through them after the games are finished!

Evidence looks very strong. The question is why such a strong player might need this?

ERIKK
10-05-2004, 09:46
Fuck!

Aggie
10-05-2004, 09:50
After sleeping over it I decided to I end my pbem vs him. The fun of that game has gone with this announcement anyway.

col
10-05-2004, 10:21
Its very sad. I hope Sky will post some kind of explanation or apology.

ERIKK
10-05-2004, 10:30
This sucks very much as I clearly remember the full frontal on
Ribannah (getting slaughtered by our friends Sky and Killer)
and also the CB issue Sky had with him (accusation on cheating)...


If have had a # of chats with Sky on cheating as he thought some of
the players cheated against him (not gonna say who but will tell
anarres/PP if asked for). My general comment has always been that why
on earth would someone lower himself for a stupid ladder... I think
he agreed on that (not sure). I think this opinion on other players
has made him do this. As he knows how to edit games (what kind of
fucking geek goes on hacking these savegames goddamnid!!! [mad2]) -
and you know how to trace this - might mean he did that too and found
something out. Or he was just paranoid... [rolleyes]

(That's what I always thought but now facing this there might be more
going on...)

col
10-05-2004, 10:35
Trust is the basis of MP. I guess we all know lots of ways of cheating that we could use - and a small edge is all it needs in most cases.

Erikk's post has a ring of truth about it. Its a small step in one's mind from "they cheated" to "everyone cheats so I might as well cheat too".

Darkness
10-05-2004, 10:58
quote:Originally posted by col

Trust is the basis of MP.

Very true!

This is bad new... :(

yndy
10-05-2004, 12:24
OK, this is a sad moment. Me being a practical fellow, think of a way of doing things in the future.

First is good that we’re keeping things in the open here. We’re stating the facts, the accusations, it’s not like the GOTM’s ”we know you cheated and we have proof but we’re not going to show it to you or others”. Sky is welcome to come, state what he thinks, admit/deny, do all the things Ribby did at that time, throw dirt everywhere and stuff. I’m sure we can handle that and we don’t need to moderate or ban anybody on the forum for that.

Second is good to see people are checking other people’s games and cheaters will eventually get caught. I bet Sky hates being banned from the forum for 6 months and also losing all his points in the ladder for three or four games that he would have lost instead of winning. With the turn-by-turn record, cheaters will always get caught even if with circumstantial evidence if they can hide their tampering pretty good. So now I have another reason to keep al saves archived when a game ends.

Third is bad that cheating suspicions will rise for a while in the forum. I hate this and hope I won’t have to answer questions like “how did you get that leader?” because I don’t really log all my moves. I’m not keeping detailed spoilers either and not even extremely careful with the saves. I bet I’m not the only one here. For example, several times I’ve started to play a turn and from sheer foolishness I pressed end-turn, trying to save my moves so far or something. This is a mistake and we’re all allowed to do those and reload. Most of the time I let the other player know about it because I know reloads can be detected. But sometime I don’t and I hate people complaining about it or trying to set rules regarding when you are allowed to reload and when you’re not. I also agree that players which are ‘too lucky’ should be investigated and even ‘convicted’ based on circumstantial evidence only.

That’s what I think about it and I don’t think it has anything to do with the ISDG, it’s not like Sky is playing the turns and all the CDZ team fails to notice temples popping out here and there.

Last thing to add: a, could you please play that turn, I’m getting very bored some days. I don’t care about that issue we had, just send me a turn to play.

Beam
10-05-2004, 13:15
This is sad news. I really hope however that Sky will stay with us and keep on doing the great contributions to the site.

As other ppl have said, I really hope we can find a practical solution to this and don't fall in PBEM Police paranoia.

@work now, there is more I'd like to say, no time to phrase it atm.

Kemal
10-05-2004, 13:19
As people who know how I approach and play the game of civ3 will understand, I have put a very large investment of energy, and at least a hundred hours of free time playing this PBEM against Skyfish in the past half a year. Skyfish himself certainly knew about this, as we spoke regularly via MSN, and discussed the topic of my time-consuming approach on playing the game in more than one of these conversations.

Obviously, my time was totally wasted on this game, as Skyfish was manipulating the savegame files in such a way that he got several very large advantages over me, and I'm very saddened and disappointed to have invested my energy in projects that I've been doing together with Skyfish over the past few years, as my history with him goes beyond just the PBEMs played on this site.

However, one thing that is much more painful to me in this case, is something that is even more valuable to me than the wasted energy and time I've put into these projects. A thing that can only be given once IMO, and something which Skyfish has abused in a way that is beyond my comprehensability:

I've given him my trust, and he has not proven a person worthy to recieve it, that much is clear to me now. By the actions made by skyfish in my game against him, he has caused a breach of trust between us that has no hope of ever being fully mended again.

While fully knowing of his acts, and of the time I spent and trust that I gave him, he has chosen not to confess any of his illegal acts at any of the dozens of opportunities that he has had over the past few months, not before starting this game with me, not during the time we played it, and not even after the game had finished and I congratulated him with his victory, even though we have spoken about it when I had already resigned, and not even giving any sign whatsoever when speaking to the persons he was betraying face-to-face on the meeting some of us had in The Hague on the 27th of March this year.

To learn that I have not been the only one that he has been betraying for such a long period, and that he has been trying to hide this away as well from the community here at CDZ, only adds to my changed view I now have of this person.
Someone who has also failed to give any reaction on matters such as how, what and why he has done the things that have been discovered now, even after being given the time and opportunity to do so outside the public fora here on CDZ, but repeatedly failed to take it.

Furthermore, I'd like to add one small thing about the way the case is presented here. Though some people may be happy about the way Skyfish has been communicating with them, or any other things he might have done for this site, I think this is not the thread to be pointing those things out, just beneath the publication of this person commiting the IMO worst crime possible in a community like this, betraying the trust given to him by other members on several occasions, for lengthy amounts of time.
It is my opinion that any decision or judgement on a matter as severe as this one should have the same basis and considerations for any participating member of CDZ, whether him being skyfish, or an unknown member that has just signed on to this board. Any of his personal behaviour and other matters he might have done in the past few years that are totally unrelevant to the matter of him using illegal methods during the PBEMs he has played, and the consequences it should have, should therefore in my opinion have been stated in a separate thread at least, if at all.

Kemal

anarres
10-05-2004, 13:54
quote:Originally posted by Kemal


It is my opinion that any decision or judgement on a matter as severe as this one should have the same basis and considerations for any participating member of CDZ, whether him being skyfish, or an unknown member that has just signed on to this board.
I can understand your anger Kemal, but you must also understand that the actions we have taken were not affected by anything else Skyfish has done at the site. I can't actually think of any worse punishment that we could have given Sky, apart from a ban from CDZ, and we will not ban anyone from CDZ for cheating in the ladder.
quote:

Any of his personal behaviour and other matters he might have done in the past few years that are totally unrelevant to the matter of him using illegal methods during the PBEMs he has played, and the consequences it should have, should therefore in my opinion have been stated in a separate thread at least, if at all.

Whilst you have your own opinions on the consequences of what has happened, so does everyone else, and they have every right to say what they think in this thread. Sky's actions are a reflection on his character, as are his previous actions and participation at the site, and so IMO it is totally relevent to comment on that in this thread.

Please understand I am not saying you shouldn't have this opinion - at CDZ we thrive on openly saying what we think, and you opinion is just as much respected as everyone elses. :)

ERIKK
10-05-2004, 14:07
Well said anarres.

There already is a 'Sky is a good guy' thread created by Mel by the way.
I contibuted in that one as I have good memories on Sky.

Kemals post might be taken a little harsh but:
1) Kemal totally goes for a game, as stated in his post
2) Think how Sky would have reacted when this happened to him => Ask Ribannah what happened to her on CFC and CDZ.

Matrix
10-05-2004, 14:13
I have seen too many people cheating on the GOTM when I administrated it to I think that cheating on a game like this can be translated to what (s)he would be in real life. Still, I don't understand why anyone would do it. What's the fun of winning a game when you cheated? Why would you cheat at all if it's just a game?!

What will happen when we have another reunion of CDZ? http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/undecided.gif

col
10-05-2004, 14:15
I've thought about this and the only scenario that makes sense to me is something along the lines that Erikk indicated. Sky and Killer were more vociferous than anyone in the Ribannah witch hunt. As Erikk has indicated Sky has been suspicious that he has been cheated against on more than one occasion. My guess - and thats all it is - is that at some point Sky has reached breaking point and thought - fuck it, if you cant beat them, might as well join them - and has cheated to demonstrate how fucked off he has become by the whole process. I'm not justifying anything, just trying to understand how this might have happened.

Bottom line? It's a game. No-one died. Get over it.

Socrates
10-05-2004, 14:16
Didn't Sky give the idea of going to his house in France someday in the summer ? [groucho] I'm not asking anything, but at least I hope his reputation will be cleaned up a little by then... Anyway, I have a solution for those who fear other people can cheat in PBEMs : only play PBEMs in CDZ reunions !!! [crazyeye]

akots
10-05-2004, 14:18
quote:Originally posted by yndy ... I don’t think it has anything to do with the ISDG, it’s not like Sky is playing the turns and all the CDZ team fails to notice temples popping out here and there. ...

How do the other teams know? IMHO, this can be a serious issue. At least it might require clear statement from Anarres.

@Anarres: If such a statement is made I'll try to bring it to CFC team (with Yndy's help) to make sure they understand this had no implications on ISDG.

akots
10-05-2004, 14:24
quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov ... Anyway, I have a solution for those who fear other people can cheat in PBEMs : only play PBEMs in CDZ reunions !!!

If you ever come to Houston (or Moscow depending on where I am atm), or I come to Paris. I'm jealous you can meet in Amsterdam and play there a hot MP game.

col
10-05-2004, 14:25
I dont think this has any implications at all for ISDG.

Cheating by editing the saves would need the collusion of the whole team and thats never going to happen - especially here with lots of players joining the discussions. All the saves are available and have been loaded by many different players.

anarres
10-05-2004, 14:34
quote:Originally posted by akots

quote:Originally posted by yndy ... I don’t think it has anything to do with the ISDG, it’s not like Sky is playing the turns and all the CDZ team fails to notice temples popping out here and there. ...

How do the other teams know? IMHO, this can be a serious issue. At least it might require clear statement from Anarres.

@Anarres: If such a statement is made I'll try to bring it to CFC team (with Yndy's help) to make sure they understand this had no implications on ISDG.
Akots, there is absolutely NO evidence that Sky cheated in any way with the ISDG. His current ban from it is because we haven't had any explanation of these events from Sky, and because it could harm the team morale to have Sky on it and commenting on the game.

I have spoken with the ISDG admins and the matter is already being investigated and dealt with.

Melifluous
10-05-2004, 14:49
quote:Originally posted by col

Bottom line? It's a game. No-one died. Get over it.


Best thing I have read all day.

[goodjob]

Melifluous

Matrix
10-05-2004, 18:57
Yep. :)

Still, Kemal simply lost a lot of time in what he thought would be fun...

Aggie
10-05-2004, 19:24
I feel that I have to explain myself. I totally understand Kemal's point of view and also understand that he feels betrayed. Therefore I agree with the steps taken, which are pretty painful for Sky I'd say. But despite what he did I like to stay in contact with him. He did a lot of things for me that I'm thankful for.

akots
11-05-2004, 00:03
quote:Originally posted by col
... It's a game. No-one died. Get over it.

I beg to disagree. Have not posted any verse at cdz yet. Here we go:

Game of life has just begun
Played by fox against raccoon:
Run to catch the rising sun
Then to stop the falling moon.

There are not that many tries,
There is not that much to gain.
He who wins must play again,
He who loses always dies.

Kingreno
11-05-2004, 00:13
I support Kemal 100% and feel exactly the same way.

I have evidence of manipulation of saves in my game vs. sky as well but besides that I would like to add some words in reaction to every post that states that this is "just a game".

Sure. This is just a game. Compared to people in eastern Sudan, Irak, Kashmir or so we do live in heaven. We complain about cheating, they have no food ect...But that is not how it works! You cannot simplify everything just by claiming something else to be worse.
What happened here, and I could not possibly write it better then kemal did but I need to say it again, must be dealt with in the most deterimined of ways.
Why? well, I for one am disgusted by the fact that I have played 100+ hours of civ in, all be it, an enjoyable game, to later find out it was one big scam! No test of power, intelligence and determination, just "the hand of god" to decide who wins and loses. This is a disgrace! No-one has even the smallest right to lure others in to this sort of false belief. And regrettably, something like this takes away more or less everything that a person may has to offer on the good side. The fact that Skyfish has not even bothered to explain himself publicly makes his case even weaker IMHO.

The community, to elaborate even further, and it needs to be done, is being hit hard. Yesterday when I talked to Erikk about this (sorry, just an example erikk:)) we were openly thinking like "where and who could ALSO be cheating". That is so NOT the thing we want. I feel no need to go on about more consequences do I?

As for the future, I seriously doubt whether Sky has one here at CDZ. Reputations hang around long. And that is just my opinion.

Matrix
11-05-2004, 00:19
Ok, let's summarize:
It's just a game. But it's also all we do here. All 'emotions' should be placed in this perspective.
Cheating is the deadliest of sins for gaming, but then again, it happens just too often. He's not a bad man, and those who've met him in real life [u]know</u> he isn't.

Melifluous
11-05-2004, 01:02
quote:Originally posted by Kingreno

As for the future, I seriously doubt whether Sky has one here at CDZ. Reputations hang around long. And that is just my opinion.


Damn right that is your opinion and I have mine.
This site is more than just a PBEM site I think.
It was a place where some people decided to take refuge from the restrictive atmosphere (for us) of a certain other forum.
We had found that we had similar enough views to get on ok and enough differences to make it interesting.
Skyfish was one of those first people that came to the site and we have, most of us, met in real life and got on well...

The game side has been dealt with. Punishment enough I think.
I understand that a lot of effort went into what you call a flawed game... Spolit now? maybe, but at the time was it fun? You bet your ass. I can honestly say that my best games are from a position of weakness. Too often we strive to crush all before us, but when did you last lose an SP game?

So skyfish may have artificially raised the challenge for you but i say that a few hours of regret now were more than payed for by a 100hours of fun.

To suggest that his future at CDZ is at an end is insulting and not the direction that I thought this forum was intended for...

Melifluous

Aggie
11-05-2004, 08:51
This is one of the worst things that can happen to CDZ. Anarres and ProPain had to do what they did but we are severly injured. We don't need to debate that Skyfish caused this. I don't agree with Meli's "it's just a game, get over it". We are all entitled to have our own thoughts and feelings about it. The ones that feel betrayed have every right, because this is just what happened. I for one don't like to be told how to react!

Kingreno states that Skyfish's case weakens because he doesn't explain himself. I don't know how it could be weaker than it is now. The evidence is pretty convincing. But I would accept an apology. I'm probably more forgiving than others, but I hope that others can understand that.

What now? I'd like to continue playing for the ladder and I will trust that my opponents play a fair game. Be warned: I play for fun, not for a result in the ladder.

Kingreno
11-05-2004, 09:47
@Meli:

I must emphasize that it was absolutely mot the case that Skyfish raises a challenge for me, or other players! The outcome of the game lay entirely in his hands!! He wants to beat Kemal one time, he beats him. Hey wants to get Dan higher up the ladder, he loses from him (no offense meant). If there is a need for a raised challenge give one player an extra setler. Not like this. And as for SP-challenges, I am happy to admit I still lose quite a few.
Naturaly before this all happened I bet everyone enjoyed the game. But these things do work backwards. As in any game. If your UT2004 mate who you always play happens to have manipulated his Rocketlauncher for permanent Quaddamage, I wonder how you feel? Especially if he seems to use the Rocketlauncher when he wants, and not consequently. Divine intervention.
His future. Well, I will explain a bit more. I just seriously do not see a realistic future here taken into account the way we are and the way he is. SF is a proud person, and perhaps too proud to come back. Regardless off the numerous good things he has done for several members here, 90% (or so) of his activities still involved PBEM. I have also spoken about this with many members and frankly almost everyone indicated that they would not play him ever again. This may, in time, change, I know that. The oil is still on the fire now, the future will tell us more.
Therefore, I am trying not to suggest that SF leave this place. It is just what I think what will happen, not what I hope, what I think.

Lt. Killer M
11-05-2004, 09:58
@ Sky:

you're my friend, and Civ is only a game!


@ others:
I have had similar evidence for a NUMBER of other players for a while (actually, it mosty concerned evident reloading to re-arrange combats) - someone was optimizing results.

so what?

OK, I might lose a game because of this - or not. And if I then beat them I am the happier :)

but this its the reason why I withdrew from the ladder (@ irigy: sorry, you were too good an excuse)

@PP and anar: no, I will not tell who, when, what.

Socrates
11-05-2004, 10:27
Oh, Killer, I understand your decision a bit more now. Still, if you still play our game, I'm very happy.

If Skyfish is still around here after a while, I will surely be happy to play him again (you can't fool people twice, uh ?), but only if he really tells if he cheated (even once) in our game (which I don't believe, but you never know). And I'll keep my savegames for future analysis, just in case.

As for his future here, I don't have a clear opinion. I feel he must understand he has done something wrong, but I hope CDZ will be the place of forgiveness and happiness. :)

The thing I'm starting to be angry at is the fact that he hasn't talked about it to anyone yet (that we know of). This makes it worse IMHO. I'm sure he feels bad about it, but I'd hope that a man like him could take his responsabilities, I mean, he's not one of those shameful teens !! If Skyfish explains it all and apologies, he'll be already half-forgiven in my heart. I know it's hard to do (to come confessing), I would probably be ill at doing so, but he should talk here, all the more as it directly concerns many people here.

Melifluous
11-05-2004, 11:05
quote:Originally posted by Kingreno
[brTherefore, I am trying not to suggest that SF leave this place. It is just what I think what will happen, not what I hope, what I think.


Ah OK, that clears it up a bit for me, I thought you were suggesting that we not be Skyfish's friend or some lame ass school yard thing.

I personally hope that he does come back, it is a rare and strange thing in this life to find people that truly make you laugh and Skyfish was one of the :(

Oh and aggie?
quote: I don't agree with Meli's "it's just a game, get over it".

I was quoting Col, but am more than happy to take the credit for such a great mans words [:p]

Melifluous

Beam
11-05-2004, 14:17
Imo anarres and Propain took the right approach, i.e. analyze and allow Sky to come with an explanation. Since he didn't (yet) it is logical to take actions.

A lot has been said about this situation and it leads me to the question: what makes winning PBEMs and the ladder so important that ppl are driven into editing savs? We aren't playing for money here and otherwise it only can be because of an imagined social hierarchy or something like that. Well, that last thing certainly does not apply to me. I am at CDZ for fun and care more about an exciting game rather than winning the game.

I realize however that there are people who take the game more seriously than I do and I understand their points, specially in relation to the time spend on playing turns in a not so honourable game.

Matrix mentioned cheating in the GOTM and we had some of that in the Tourney as well. There is a key difference here however and that is that most of us know more of each other than just how good or bad we play, even have met personally. That for me means it is a little more than "it's just a game". Having said that: I play board- and cardgames with friends of mine as well and indeed sometimes there is cheating. I am not approving that but it does not mean I do not talk to that person anymore.

So, I really hope that Sky will come with a reaction soon and give an explanation on the why, apologizes and promises not to do it again. In that case some of his ban could even be reliefed but that is imo and not for me to decide.

col
11-05-2004, 14:48
Well to clarify "its just a game" as quoted by sMeli.

I'm trying to get a sense of perspective here. Yes we are surprised and shocked. Its not something that we at CDZ do. It only happens elsewhere, doesnt it?

Well no.

Sadly in my opinion, worthy though ladders and leagues are in many respect, as soon as you introduce that level of competition, you make winning too desirable, losing too awful and cheating becomes inevitable. It happens in every type of game. I dont know any online game or offline game too that doesnt have players who cheat. I'm surprised everyone is so shocked.

People play games for a whole variety of reasons. I play for fun and to relieve the stress of a tough job. Others play for different reasons. I dont like losing but it doesnt particularly bother me if I lose a game of Civ. Like most people I have far more important things going on in my life - and to be honest - my life would probably be better if I spent a bit less time playing games like Civ.

Why do players cheat? Lots of different reasons. To see if they can. To show how clever they are. Because they think everyone else does it. Because winning is more important than playing. Because they cant stand to lose. Because there are too many bad winners. Because they are self destructive. Because they dont enjoy playing any more ... you can add your own.

Yes I'm surprised if Sky cheated but I dont particularly care much. CDZ is a social site first and foremost for me. Civ is incidental. I cant get worked up about what is in the end "just a game". I find some of the outraged morality round here somewhat over the top. If you've never cheated at a game in your life, then you are a rare and slightly sad individual.

Kemal
11-05-2004, 15:53
Deleted.

Obviously my views on this matter are totally different than of most people here, but this was not the correct way to vent my anger here I suppose.

If Col wishes, we can talk about our feelings on this matter via msm privately. The forum is not the right place to do this indeed.

Kemal

anarres
11-05-2004, 16:13
Guys, please try to refrain from judging each others feelings about this.

You can say what you like on the matter, but it saddens me very much that people feel the need to make this personal in any way. :(

anarres
11-05-2004, 16:15
quote:Originally posted by Kemal

For this entire topic long, col, you've been patronizing and telling those who Skyfish has been cheating what to feel, think and do...FWIW several people have done this (including you).

To everyone: think about the effect of your words on CDZ community. Every bad word about another is just making the whole situation worse.

Aggie
11-05-2004, 16:17
quote:Originally posted by anarres

Guys, please try to refrain from judging each others feelings about this.

You can say what you like on the matter, but it saddens me very much that people feel the need to make this personal in any way. :(


A couple of the posts above underline why I said that is terrible for CDZ. I'm not so naive to say that we were one happy family, but I wonder how long the effects of this is will haunt us. Bottom line for me is that we should respect each other's point of view regarding this topic. I must say that I have missed this respect in a number of posts :(

Melifluous
11-05-2004, 16:20
EDIT!

COMPLETELY REMOVED MY LAME A$$ WHINGINGS

EDIT!

Vive la revolution!

Melifluous

Melifluous
11-05-2004, 16:30
In fact I'm going into hiding now...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/melifluous/2004511153015_ouch.jpg
3.74KB

Melifluous

ProPain
11-05-2004, 16:41
It's obvious people have different views on CDZ and the laddder games. Whether you like CDZ best for the social interaction, the ladder games or both doesn't really matter, as we're here for both. But respecting each other's opinion and feelings about this is necessary to keep it a fun place to be.

I can imagine that someone who has spent hundreds of hours on a game has different feelings about being cheated than someone who spent just a few hours. Just as some people consider cheating in games is a fact of life while others strongly disagree with this. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion and feelings on this and please respect each other in this.

So much appreciated when you keep this in mind even when you strongly feel everybody is entitled to your opinion even more than their own. It would be a terrible waste when CDZ was to break up over this.

col
11-05-2004, 16:59
quote:Originally posted by Kemal

I must say I'm shocked and amazed about the cheating, but now even more to hear these words from an off-topic moderator of one of the biggest civ sites on the internet.

For this entire topic long, col, you've been patronizing and telling those who Skyfish has been cheating what to feel, think and do, totally ignoring the fact that it is actually Skyfish that has been the one doing the wrong thing in this matter.

Its certainly not my intention to tell anyone else what to feel. That would be a waste of time. It is my intention to try to get some kind of perspective here. People cheat. In all games. It doesnt make it right. I dont think its right. I do accept it can happen. I've been known to claim goals at footie when I was offside. One of the reasons I was appointed OT mod was precisely because I can understand a variety of views without imposing my morality on everyone else.
quote:
Or maybe, using your moral standards, it isn't that way at all.

If you feel that things such as trust and moral standards should play no part in things done online because you feel that you see cheaters everywhere, I'm glad I'm not involved in any project with you, or know you in any way at all. Not only are IMO your moral standards repulsive, you also continuously feel the need to stress the fact that those involved should get over having lost the game and get on with life, without understanding that the reason those persons might be angered is not related to the game at all, but to the fact that a person, that you have talked to for more than 2 years on an almost daily basis and have even met in real life, has been lying to them for all this time without showing any remorse about it.

I do understand that you are angry - and I would be angry too in your shoes. You probably feel hurt and betrayed. Quite naturally. Who wouldnt? But where does that get you? Until you let go of your anger, you won't move forward. And yes if the language sounds familiar - I am a trained counsellor.

quote:
Obviously, looking at what you've posted so far, you think that such betrayal should be regarded as normal human interaction, but to then continue with calling those who do have high moral standards, and feel the need that judgment should be passed on those who have broken their trust, sad individuals is really beyond me and shows me that I should pity a certain administrator from a certain civ3 site for entrusting someone like you with moderatorship for the biggest forum at his site.

I do realise that people are human and make mistakes. No one is perfect and we have all done things that we regretted later. I have every sympathy towards you, Kemal. I also have a lot of sympahy for Sky. I imagine he doesnt feel too good either.

As for my OT modship, as long as TF is happy, then I'll continue. I dont please everyone all the time but I do my best.

Kemal
11-05-2004, 17:06
Obviously my anger did get the better of me when I made my post, and I shouldn't have pointed it all in one post at you directly col, even though I do not agree with the things you said in your earlier post.

My apologies for posting my thoughts about this here directly in this topic, which was not the correct way to do so.

col
11-05-2004, 17:11
I wasnt trying to patronise at all and I apologise if my words came across that way. What I was trying to say was to let your anger go. Instead I obviously enflamed it and for that I am sincerely sorry.

Whats done is done. We can but speculate as to why Sky behaved the way he did in the absence of his own words. I tend to analyse why things happen and how to move forward. It may seem that I am discounting what has happened and for that too I apologise.

Kemal
11-05-2004, 17:19
Apologies accepted, as I hope you will accept mine too for my strong words you've still got quoted in your post.

you are very right col, we should put things into perspective and though my anger over this will not suddenly disappear, I will better control myself as to not do even more damage to this site, nor to see my anger focused on people who aren't involved in this matter, which in the end of course is between me and Skyfish, at all.

Lets now try to put this behind us indeed, and get back to enjoying this great site for whatever reason we desire.

yndy
11-05-2004, 19:39
quote:Originally posted by col
If you've never cheated at a game in your life, then you are a rare and slightly sad individual.
That would make me [alien] a rare and slightly sad individual.

Still I understand people who cheat, even people who cheat against me, as I am undoubtedly very hard to surpass [groucho] at everything I do.

And all people who are better than me without cheating are pitiful geeks ;).

akots
11-05-2004, 21:08
@Col. I beg to disagree again with some of your points. IMHO, there are a few loopholes in the logic you are using. Considering counseling, it might be working because the people who are in need of counseling want to be persuaded.

First, if the game is played for fun, then there is no point in cheating. It just does not feel right unless you are sure you would never get caught and/or want to humiliate your opponent. The former is stupidity and the latter is not nice with some people. Sometimes happens in RL and is not a big disaster but may cause serious trouble.

Second, if all around play for fun and are cheating, then there is no point in cheating again unless you want to go with the "stream" and make a god company and/or feel betrayed and abused and see no other way around. The former is a stereotype behavior and the latter is a an early sign of pathology.

Third, if all around play for result and are not cheating then cheating is obviously not a way to go. It is dangerous and would make other people really pissed and angry if discovered. This can be done only if a person does not care about the other people he is playing with.

Fourth, if all around play for result and some are cheating whereas some play honestly and the person does not feel like there is a strong proof of cheating. IMO, best solution to this situation is to go find the proof and then warn the other person who is cheating that you don't like to be cheated, suspect it, and will try to find a proof. Usually this is enough to stop any cheating from another person.

Fifth, the way the matter is handled by Anarres and ProPain is super-fair and very straightforward. What was done is done but the main thing to worry about is that it is not repeated in the future.

Sixth, I'm a rather strong chess player and sometimes visit pogo to play a couple of short blitz games. I never use a computer and in some cases was accused of cheating there when I won against a weaker player. It really hurts especially when it comes from a really weak player who has very little understanding of the game. However, I myself have no problem detecting other cheating players who use computers. When you accuse them and show evidence they never agree they cheated. Mostly because they don't understand the evidence since they are weak players who were unable to compete without cheating.

Seventh which is a logical continuation of the sixth and final conclusion. If a strong player feels that he is not strong enough to beat another player and is cheating understanding that he is cheating and wins as the result, this is a an unfair game if another player is not cheating. If both players are cheating this is an unfair game. Then it must be assumed that the player is not strong enough to be the best player but he badly wants to be the first player and believes that he should be the first. This really shows a gap in what the person thinks he is (best) and the actual result (losing a game). Since in general, "life is not fair", and "all around cheat", and "I'm the best and don't need any improvement in my playing skill", cheating is the only way to go. However, there is always another option which is to improve the playing skill and focus.

Conclusion: It is already a bit too long of a post, so to put it short:

Instead of spending time on cheating, it is better to work towards improving the playing skill. Or protect yourself like Yndy and many others are doing. Otherwise, you get caught and this means something bad would be done to you. Nothing really bad but may be unpleasant.

col
11-05-2004, 21:35
Hmm - folk seem to be under the impression that I've somehow been saying that cheating is Ok. Let me repeat what I said above. I dont think it is Ok. It makes people angry and destroys the trust between people. There's no point in listing all the reasons why cheating is bad. Its self evidently a baaaaaaaad thing.

But. Lets get real here. People do cheat. Noone is perfect. I find it hard to believe that folk havent cheated in any game in their lives. Perhaps they were made of different stuff as children. I'm more interested in why people cheat. I dont think its as simple as just wanting to win too much in most cases.

We tend to over-react when we discover someone has cheated. We feel they have taken advantage of us and that we have been foolish. We want revenge. We want to make them suffer the way we have suffered.

And then we calm down. We think about the cheater. How do they feel? We want to know why they cheated? We want to understand. And then we can forgive perhaps.

Beam
11-05-2004, 21:54
quote:We tend to over-react when we discover someone has cheated. We feel they have taken advantage of us and that we have been foolish. We want revenge. We want to make them suffer the way we have suffered.

And then we calm down. We think about the cheater. How do they feel? We want to know why they cheated? We want to understand. And then we can forgive perhaps.

Best summary I've read in years.

akots
11-05-2004, 22:14
quote:Originally posted by col ... We think about the cheater. How do they feel? We want to know why they cheated? We want to understand. And then we can forgive perhaps.

Again I see some loopholes. First, there is nothing to forgive. It is not that somebody has done something bad to you by cheating in the game. It is that the person who is cheating has hurt himself indeed considering the circumstances in the short run and in the long run as well. Whether it has been dicovered or not. So, that person should forgive himself. This is the most difficult part.

Second, there is no need to understand that other person. Knowing why it happened does not mean that it is possible to understand.

Third, IMHO, taking this whole issue too seriously or not seriously enough is the worst that can happen. Including the present discussion. The balance is very fragile atm. :)

Matrix
13-05-2004, 10:44
Pff. Personally I've read enough about this now. I won't think less of Sky (or very little), but I won't play a game with him until he gives a reasonable explanation or sincere apologies. C'est tout.

Sir Eric
13-05-2004, 13:21
As much as it would be a major disapoinment to have played, or are playing a game with Skyfish at the moment, I'm pretty much amazed at how well and how maturely you guys have responded to this whole episode.
I reckon it reflects what a great sight this place is.
He's ya mate but he stuffed up, I reckon you blokes have done the right thing without being over the top.
Here's to hoping Skyfish gets over it and comes back to play again.

Melifluous
13-05-2004, 14:31
quote:Originally posted by Sir Eric


Here's to hoping Skyfish gets over it and comes back to play again.


Nice thought, but it aint gonna happen.

Melifluous

ERIKK
13-05-2004, 14:53
I think it would suck far more when he now decides to disappear and takes all the
necessary steps to ignore us for the rest of his life!

- stop coming and posting on CDZ/CFC (he posted 2350 times on CDZ in less than a year IIRC). I
assume this will be difficult for anyone addicted to messageboards!
- abandom his MSN account to avoid us. This is easy; just create a new accoutn and bye bye old
friends!
- change your number on your mobile. Some crazy CDZ member might start terrorizing you from now
on. This wont happen I guess: none of us is that wierd... ;)

From reading the two SkyFish-threads it is obvious he still has enough respect with us to
continue being a member of the group. We all hate losing him. So, as he is probably reading
this thread not logged in:

Time to step forward, dude!

Melifluous
13-05-2004, 17:07
OK,

So I've talked to Skyfish on the phone.
Yes I still have his mobile number from my visit to Amsterdam last year.

He was a little surprised (ok very freaked but anyway) but we had a little chat.

I didnt ask him about alleged cheating and he didnt offer anything.

I asked him if he would be coming back.

He said that this was a good opportunity to leave.

He hasn't read anything in the forums since last Friday.

He has no intention of ever coming back

Thanks a lot guys. One of my nicest online friends is never coming back.

Special thanks go to

If you want to deal with this in your own way that is fine, but don't take your anger out on everyone else please.

Come on msm if you want to talk about it, don't post shit like this again. All you are doing is trying to tear CDZ up yourself.

- anarres

and who can forget the moderators
Propain and Anarres, for deciding to post all of this publically!
- edited back in the admin-bit as my post wouldn't make sense without it- PP.
Really great job, couldn't have done it better myself.

Melifluous (Really fuckin pissed off)

anarres
13-05-2004, 17:19
One thing that should be remembered is that Sky did this himself. He made a decision to cheat in nearly every game he played, and has to accept that will piss people off.

Meli, if you REALLY care about people then show it - do what you can to mend bridges, don't take a fucking torch to what is left.

ProPain
13-05-2004, 17:21
Mel,

Sorry to see you pissed of and posting while your surely still quite angry. I would have appreciated it if you would have calmed down and thought through your post a bit more.

To be clear, we didn't ask Sky to manipulate his games nor to leave CDZ. Both are his own free choice. Simple as that. Suggesting we shouldn't have made this public is reasoned purely from your interest and not giving any consideration to other peoples feeling.

Again everybody is entitled to their own feelings about this but respect for difference of opinion is a part of that too.

PP

Melifluous
13-05-2004, 17:50
Also nice to see anarres editing my posts here and removing large chunks of my post.

IIRC didn't PP warn me the other day for doing the exact same thing?

I had thought that free speech was important here. Maybe not.
It would appear that not rocking the boat is the main aim.

This whole episode has made me sick.

Admins? You didnt make Skyfish cheat, but you didnt have to post it for everyone else to read did you?

What choice but to leave did SF have in this case?

Sorry for the aggressive tone though, I am annoyed and editing my posts is just raising the temperature.

Melifluous

akots
13-05-2004, 18:08
@Melifluous: Since the ladder results were public then why something that makes them unfair must not be posted in public? I'm just struggling to understand. Well, if it were not posted then the whole ladder site and public ladder idea makes no sense, IMHO. Care to explain?

anarres
13-05-2004, 18:17
Would you think it is best when finding several games with evidence of cheating NOT to tell the others involved? If they are told then everyone would find out, by word of mouth. Is that better than making it public now?

Please tell me what you would have done in our position Mel? Not told anyone and let him remain top of the ladder?

Tell me another thing: Do you think I enjoyed the last 3 weeks? Was it something I wanted to do?

Sky is NOT been made to stay away, he has made that choice himself. I have sent him several personal emails asking him to at least talk to me on a personal basis, in which I made my own feeling plain (which is that I don't give a shit about the games and I miss chatting to him).

This whole episode has made me sick too, but not because of what happened, but because of the way we are attacking each other over this.

The ONLY part I edited from your post was 4 or 5 lines where you made VERY personal attacks on people here. They were not constructive, they did not help anything. You can read the rules again if you wish, it is about the only thing we will mod, and is something we ONLY do if we feel is necessary to avoid damaging CDZ.

yndy
13-05-2004, 18:31
I don’t want to go off-topic but Meli, I’d rather have things spelled out in the open rather than done in the background.

Ribbanah was dealt (on CFC) half-hidden and half-public which made her angry and allowed her to continue to lie, denying everything up to the end. She was banned (from CFC) and did not return there. Lots of people believed her and were lured into her lies for a time. She tried to come back at CDZ but as she kept pretending she did not cheat, she did not have a successful come-back.

Cracker did not cheat but was sort of like thrown out from CFC without any explanations, all his wrongdoings were edited, half the GOTM players still don’t know why he disappeared after a year of doing a brilliant job (IMHO). He willingly never came back at CFC.

Sky received a totally different treatment. On one side, things were spelt in the open so that everyone knows what it was about, but in the same time, most of us showed a lot of support and asked him to come back, which IMHO was more than fair. Yet it appears that Sky does not want to come back to CDZ/CFC. That’s sad but I think we’ve done everything possible, better than in previous cases.

col
13-05-2004, 18:35
quote:Originally posted by yndy

Cracker did not cheat but was sort of like thrown out from CFC without any explanations, all his wrongdoings were edited, half the GOTM players still don’t know why he disappeared after a year of doing a brilliant job (IMHO). He willingly never came back at CFC.

He resigned after disagreements with TF.

akots
13-05-2004, 21:12
It is a lunch hour and I decided to write a small essay on similar issues which are related to my current work. I am a scientist and amazingly, cheating in science is even more popular than cheating in games. As you all probably know, scientists do experiments and make some discoveries which they then publish in scientific journals. Not in Scientific American but in some serious journals like Nature, Science, Proceeding of the US Academy of Sciences, Cell, Gene, etc. There are about 10,000 of these journals. Depending on how good you are in discovering things, it is quite possible to advance rapidly through the carrier, become professor, get large grant money to support your research, get various kinds of awards including the Nobel Prize, be respected among the scientific community, read public lectures, and all this kind of stuff. Therefore, desire to cheat is immanent. Many people value their reputation less than what they can gain from ruining it. So, some scientists forge the data. Sometimes slightly by altering some numbers they actually got from the experiment in the favor of their hypothesis. Some others cheat badly by manipulating with the data of even by putting some data which they never got from experiments that were never done. Then, they publish their findings in journals, become famous and get all that kind of benefits described above.

Eventually, most of the cheaters have been exposed because other people were unable to repeat their data or find support for their hypothesis by independent approaches. The scientific community debated the whole issue for about 4 or 5 years (IIRC starting from 1996 to 2001) in terms of what to do with these cheaters and how to deal in a fair way without discarding some good things they have done. It is all about ethics in the end but discussions were furious. Just imagine that you are working to find a method to treat cancer for 50 years having only moderate success then some guy comes forward and tells that he treated this kind of cancer in 1 year because he is a genius. In the end, you find out that he claimed to try his method on 50 patients but instead had only 5 patients and all the rest 45 were treated only in imagination of that "genius". How would you feel?

Col may argue again that you should quell the anger, get over it, forgive, live your own happy life etc. Nobody died and nothing bad happened. Indeed, there is some sense in it especially if that other person is indeed very nice and polite and helped many other scientists when they needed that help. Keep also in mind that the people who discussed these issues were very bright scientists themselves and many were psychologists and many had various kinds of degrees in mental health sciences besides being very intelligent and educated. Then, imagine yourself as a head of some research institute who have on his desk a number or strong evidence that one of his most top-ranked professors is cheating by playing with scientific data and published the discoveries. What would you do? Expose the person in public? Then, this may damage the reputation of your research institution possibly irreversibly. Keep it secret and just fire the guy? Then, he goes to some other institution and breaks the things there. Keep it secret, warn the guy and keep him on his job? Then, if somebody else knows of it, you are the co-conspirator and the same guilt that falls on him falls on you as well. Commit suicide? Well, there were 2 cases of suicide; one was a rather famous director of a research institute who was threatened by a multimillion lawsuit from a company because of the patent they owned.

The whole community was busy with polemics and in the end they came up with some kind of policy for each particular institution. The strongest points of the policy were:

1) Evidence must be considered within the institution by a specific review panel. If evidence is found to be convincing, the cheater must be informed on these evidences and must have an ability to defend. If further investigation reveals that cheater is cleared, they all go to dinner and have some beer together. If found suspicious or guilty:
2) Cheater admitting his guilt should be allowed to retire peacefully without being publicly exposed promising to never do any scientific research in the future. All his discoveries including publications and patents are then officially declared fraud without indicating the reason for this or who is the responsible person.
3) Cheater admitting his guilt and not willing to retire peacefully is fired and all other institutions and research communities are confidentially informed of his case. Discoveries and other things are dealt with as above.
4) Cheater not admitting his guilt and not cooperating with the investigation (some people burned their lab protocols, can you imagine this!) then forces the institution to re-consider his case with the help of some external reviewers which have high and clear reputation in scientific community and are experts in this area. It looks like a trial though public usually has no access to it. If proven non-guilty, the institution and committee make the statement about the trial and no consequences occur.
5) If proven guilty, the issue is exposed to general public including some local mass media and whole scientific community. The cheater is fired and loses all his academic awards, titles, degrees, and honors obtained as a consequence of cheating or in the areas closely related to the cheating field except those which are inalienable due to the conditions under which they are awarded. Discoveries and other things are dealt with as above except that in each case there is a specific public statement describing the reason for the action to be taken including description of the evidence and validation of the rulings of the review board.

The way the matters were handled in CFC and here are at least fair and at most very fair and clear. Therefore I do not understand why Anarres and ProPain are being criticized for what has been done. It looks very logical and IMHO is handled in a very proper manner. Certainly, a game is a game and nobody gets hurt. But nobody is hurt by the decision and posts by CDZ administration in physical or financial aspects as well. So, it would be a good idea to spread this "not-hurt-get-over-it" to both sides of the conflict. IMHO, it looks like the CDZ Admin side has already passed the stage of "getting over" and have unobstructed point of view, the other side is not over yet and is not going to soon which is sad but must be accepted in order for the other people to claim that they "got over".

Conclusion: lunch hour ended, back to work: Get over it!

Socrates
13-05-2004, 21:57
I'd like to tell that I think the admins did a good job, and that the majority of people who wrote here are happy with it, and would like Sky to come back. I really feel it was done far better than at CFC. I'm one of those who still didn't understand all why Cracker left CFC... ;)

Sky is mature enough to take decisions, and I don't think the admins made him go away. So Meli, I don't share your point of view. I too could say some stuff about your behaviour for Diplo, but I'm not into it, and I wasn't in anger mood, but still I could say something... So get over it my friend ! You're funny when you start slang, but now it's not cool anymore.

And BTW, I wonder why Sky is leaving. I really wonder, it's just too crazy. He basically chose the shameful way to leave, and I hope he'll come back. Nobody understands it. And if he wanted to leave someday, he could at least have not cheated !?

Grille
13-05-2004, 23:12
And I thought Sky went on holiday because he didn't send the turn... so that's the reason.
Oh well, the game is dead.
But I think I'm going to miss Sky's fresh and funny posts much more than that game.

Melifluous
14-05-2004, 01:35
OK I was at the time annoyed at the turn of events.

Hindsight as always granted me 20/20 vision and I thought of a scenario that would have spared my friend his blushes (that's the friendly bit) and kept my friend posting here (that's the selfish part)

I whole heartedly apologise for my actions in these forums and concede that my own emotions had led me to a certain rose tinted glasses kind of phase.

I would also like to apologise for being a total ass and pissing people off.

Case closed. I got over it

Melifluous

PS. Also talked to anarres via MSN, he is having possibly the hardest time of all in this. He personally has organised the forums here, from the mundane allocation of avatars to the general organisation of these forums, his behaviour constitutes actions above and beyond the call of what I, as a poster, have ever had to endure. Grats and kudos anarres. In my own little world of flame I often ignore those people who work hard for our own little places in the world.

Sir Eric
14-05-2004, 05:11
:grouphug

Swingue
14-05-2004, 11:10
One comment on the way Annares and PP took care of this issue.

I am very content with their way, they took the responsible approach of first determining if there was a problem, then confront the person responsible and only then make things public. I know this because I am sitting in front of PP (about 1,5 metres) each day, play Civ3 with him and he did not once mention the name or problem with me (which must have been hard) because that is the right way to do it.

I am sad these things happen but happy that we have two responsible admins who take care of these things in a way many politicians and others in real life can take an example from

thanx

Lt. Killer M
14-05-2004, 19:54
the only thing I can say is, that with 20/20 hindsight, it might have been possible to inform all of Sly's opponents via email/chat before making it public.


so I'll give the mods a 99 out of a possible 100!

;)

Stapel
17-05-2004, 14:10
I already heared the rumours when I had a phonecall with Killer last week.

I'd like to add my two grants:

I am absolutely NOT surprised somebody would do this. It is absolutely 100% naive to think this wouldn't happen. For many years I have been a member of a rather big student's club, using the same principle of mutual trust in its ordering/billing system. I have always told that there will always be 1 or 2 that simply take advantage of this. Now that a new system was introduced 2 years ago, it appears it must have been dozens, if not hundreds. All 'act' surprised.....


I would like to explain all of you that Skyfish is most certainly not the only one that is cheating.
Cheating is fucking easy! A simple reload, using the admin password, using the load PBEM from sologame bug. All rediculously easy and afaik never to be checked out. I am a bit surprised about editing saves, but that doesn't make a difference. Cheating happens. It is never ok, but as long as it can be done, it will be done.

I would never ever say cheating is ok, but when starting a PBEM, you should realise that your opponent might cheat. Simple as that!

Matrix
17-05-2004, 17:49
quote:Originally posted by Stapel

Cheating happens. It is never ok, but as long as it can be done, it will be done.
Hear, hear. But most of us figured that out already. Problem is what to do with Skyfish as person. He has now disappeared completely. (By the way, I SMSed him, but he didn't respond. Surprise(!))

Stapel
17-05-2004, 19:02
quote:Originally posted by Matrix

quote:Originally posted by Stapel

Cheating happens. It is never ok, but as long as it can be done, it will be done.
Hear, hear. But most of us figured that out already. Problem is what to do with Skyfish as person. He has now disappeared completely. (By the way, I SMSed him, but he didn't respond. Surprise(!))


Let's give him some time to overthink his sins. There is no reason to speed things up.

Ribannah
24-09-2004, 21:51
quote:Originally posted by yndy
Ribbanah was dealt (on CFC) half-hidden and half-public which made her angry and allowed her to continue to lie, denying everything up to the end. She was banned (from CFC) and did not return there. Lots of people believed her and were lured into her lies for a time. She tried to come back at CDZ but as she kept pretending she did not cheat, she did not have a successful come-back.
I have not been here for a while (too busy) so I did not see this thread before, but this requires a reply.

It is saddening to see that after so much time some people are still spreading lies about me.

In contrast to Skyfish, I have never cheated in any of my games.
I am not banned from CFC and have been playing a number of GOTM's and COTM's, although I have no time to really finish one within a month. I've posted often enough on the CFC forums, too. Since Cracker and Aeson left I've had no problems there whatsoever.

I am applauding Kemal (someone I much respect) for providing real proof in the case of Skyfish, something which was never even attempted by my accusors even though behind the scenes I was accused of doing the exact same thing (manipulating savegames - a skill I do not even possess) and I offered to provide all my savegames of every turn.

It is quite funny that once again one of my biggest accusors, someone who was in fact abusive to me on many occasions (even far before any incident at CFC), has now been found out.

I am not surprised because I noticed a peculiar improvement in Skyfish's results since shortly after the witchhunt on me. Before, he was a mediocre player, and suddenly he could challenge the best of us while his play did not really change and he never showed any great insights into the game. But, without proof, I could and would say nothing.

I am also applauding most of you for, despite everything, NOT thrashing Skyfish as a person, and giving him every opportunity (which, alas, he has not used) to explain himself. I know that it is a fact of life that only the real offenders can get such a fair treatment, while the wrongly accused never do, but the latter is no reason to end the former.

quote:Cracker did not cheat but was sort of like thrown out from CFC without any explanations, all his wrongdoings were edited, half the GOTM players still don’t know why he disappeared.
There are also those who do, and know better.

Beam
24-09-2004, 22:06
Great. Summer is over, leaves are falling and everybody starts contributing in his / her familiar manner.

Ribannah
24-09-2004, 22:17
Beam,

I would rather make a different contribution. This is not at all 'my familiar manner'. Some 99,999% of all my posts on the many forums that I visit (including 2 of my own) are on entirely different topics, but unfortunately this one was necessary.