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Aggie
07-05-2004, 20:17
I created this thread to be able to discuss our Sid SG of CFC. That site will be down for 2 days and the team showed interest to play on this weekend.

I won't do this for the other SG's I organised at CFC. Those don't need the intensive discussion that a Sid game deserves :)

anarres
07-05-2004, 20:36
Cool! Good thinking Aggie. :)

microbe
07-05-2004, 21:30
heihei :D

Aggie
07-05-2004, 21:47
Hi microbe! Nice to have a supporter :)

Greebley
08-05-2004, 03:33
Howdy. Just registered.

Aggie
08-05-2004, 07:32
Welcome Greebly :)

anarres
08-05-2004, 15:04
I got this email from Nad:

----------------------------

Hi annares! These are my turns from AG8. I've attached the save file and a couple of pics. I've been trying to post this to the thread on CDZ but I can't! I'm not sure if it is down or what. So please could you post this report there along with the pics if possible? Thanks!


AG8, Let's Try Sid, inherited turn 50AD

Made a couple of tentative dotmaps to decide where to replace cities. Kente is in a very strange position...it's 1 tile away from the coast and also wastes a grassland tile...I'm going to abandon and replace that city.
Switched to settler.

Sorted through units and cities. One the whole everything is looking very good. One little criticism...we've left far too many forests unchopped, they've been roaded but not chopped. I understand we wish to keep some forests, for micromanagement to high shields and for shield pick-up on growth, but as it is a number of cities are going to struggle in growing because they lack enough food tiles. I'm going to look to chop a number of forests this turn.

A few builds are switched: Delhi, Bombay, Chittagong, Chondote, Kawauka and Tydenaga to settlers, Indus, Kolhapur and Ganges to worker, Kiohero to barracks and Gandasetaigon to harbour.

IT: Salamanca market ----------> spear (can do a spear a turn) Kolhapur worker ----------> catapult

Turn 1, 70AD: army heals this turn, so we can attack next turn. Units move.

IT: Sumeria approaches with a settler pair. Byzantines drop a horse/settler pair. We're going to win the race to both sites, however.
Salamanca spear ---------> spear
Lots of border expansions thanks to Artemis.
St Regis market ---------> courthouse
Oka settler ---------> harbour

Turn 2, 90AD: Owego and Neodakheat founded, both start workers.

Attack Chittagong; army kills pike and 2 spears and we capture the city and a slave. Start worker.

Move towards the next city, India has just 2 left.

IT: Persia gives boot order.
Salamanca spear ----------> spear
Allegheny market ----------> courthouse
Indus worker ----------> worker
Akwesasne harbour ----------> courthouse

Turn 3, 110AD: the masses of jungle is slowing down our move towards the last Indian cities.

Chittagong settler whipped and citizen made a specialist to abandon the city.

IT: mountie retreats from Indian longbow. Sumeria tries boot order but I take rop instead.
Salamanca spear ----------> spear
Centralia courthouse ----------> market
Chittagong settler, abandoned
Chondote settler ----------> aqueduct
Grand River market ----------> Heroic Epic

Turn 4, 130AD: Indian longbow killed. Mounties converge on Calcutta...might be a little late, Sumeria has many troops outside the city.

IT: Sumeria takes Calcutta a turn before we were about to :(.
Salamanca spear ----------> spear
Mauch Chunk aqueduct ----------> courthouse Gewauga settler ----------> courthouse

Turn 5, 150AD: Oiogouen founded with an Indian settler...I understand this leaves a small flip chance, but with no Indian cultural history and a free temple it should be okay. Starts worker. Skannayutenate founded, starts worker.

It is time to make peace with OCC India. Peace + 99gpt gets us monotheism and engineering. Sumeria should hopefully finish India off in the interturn and we get our cash back.

Monotheism and all our gold won't get us feudalism from Sumeria so it is time to play dirty: renegotiate peace, and now we can get feudalism for monotheism + 1040g.

Engineering sold to Persia for republic + 15g. Republic sold to Sumeria for 1046g + 8gpt. Monotheism sold to Rome for Monarchy + 1g.

Techwise, we are down invention to Portugal, Byzantines and India; we are down chivalry to Portugal and Inca; and we are down theology to Portugal.
There are 2fers available but too expensive.

Dyes bought from Byzantines for silks + 15gpt...we're shortly going to need them.

Salamanca can no longer train spears so switches to 2 turn MDIs...I know we mostly want mounties, but a few MDI are nice for punch and a better use of shields for now...once out of the GA we'll be back to mounties. Gayagaahe changes to aqueduct.

Single scientist set on chivalry, just in case we want to delay it so we can train mounties...as an optional tech it can wait if needs be.

IT: I do not effing believe it :rolleyes:

[pic of India-Sumeria peace]

I hate AIs :mad: Sumeria only had to take that last city and had troops round it already, and we would have got our 99gpt back! :aargh:
Even worse, Sumeria moves some enkidus in our direction...er, hello?

Cattaraugus market ---------> courthouse Golgouen barracks ---------> courthouse Oil Springs market ---------> pike

Turn 6, 170AD: theology is now also about and we have an excellent chance to 3fer, but we can't afford it :(. Well not conventionally anyhow, but I'm feeling sneaky again...we can do a careful steal from India...if we succeed we can broker it, if we fail then we may get out of our 99gpt payment...IMO this is worth the risk. Go for the careful seal (1255g)...ouch! The steal fails an dGhandi doesn't declare war :(. Bugger. Sorry for the waste of gold, guys, but i still think it was worth the risk.

Kente settler whipped and citizen set to specialist to abandon the city.
Move some mounties into Delhi in case Sumeria is planning a sneak attack.

IT: no, the Sumerian units simply wanted to use our roads.
Salamanca MDI ----------> MDI
Tonawanda courthouse ----------> harbour St Regis courthouse ----------> MDI Kahnawake courthouse ----------> aqueduct

Byzantines starts Sistine.

Turn 7, 190AD: Bombay switched to worker as we can't whip the settler cos the city is still in resistance. It looks like Greebley was right...the Kente settler/abandon trick didn't work, because even at size 1 with a specialist the city made surplus food from being next to a river. Switched to pike, will have to bring in a settler from elsewhere. Delhi settler whipped.

IT: Delhi settler -----------> wealth, about to abandon the city Bombay worker ----------> worker Kente pike ----------> wealth Oil Springs pike ----------> courthouse

Turn 8, 210AD: Delhi abandoned, Onnontare founded, starts barracks.

IT: Salamanca MDI ----------> MDI
St Regis MDI ----------> MDI
Ganges worker ----------> worker
Caughnawaga courthouse ----------> market

Turn 9, 230AD: Ganogeh founded, starts worker.

IT: Rome gives boot order.
Allegheny courthouse ----------> granary

Turn 10, 250AD: Kente abandoned and then refounded, starts worker.

The GA is about to end and I don't want to leave the next player masses of micromanagement on the first turn, so I will play an extra turn to get things straightened out. Salamanca switched to pike, since it won't have enough shields for MDI.

IT: GA ends
Salamanca pike ----------> mountie (2 turn mounties again)

Constantinople completes Leo's, Portugal switches to Sistine.

Turn 11, 260AD: cities reconfigured after end of GA.

There are some diplo options for the next player to consider. We will want to revolt soon but might need a bit more cash saved up...we currently have a net outgoing of 166gpt to other civs :eek:

There are 2 more cities to found, and there are 2 settlers in production for this task. The first is to replace Bangalore on the yellow dot shown in the full screenshot below. The second is to plug a gap in the pink circle shown.
However, that terrain is marshland and currently being cleared...by the time the settler is complete the marsh will be cleared.

Our options are still open. We've managed to sneak in lots of courthouses, harbours, markets and aqueducts during our GA. I suggest we go back to the military buildup now, as crucial builds complete.

------------------------

pics being uploaded now

Aggie
08-05-2004, 15:43
I believe Greebly is up now?

I think that we still got the two techs relatively cheap from India. It would have been nice if they were killed by Sumeria for a lot of reasons, but it is still a nice deal. I can imagine the steal attempt. Should we have succeeded then that could have been a great boost.

Further comments will follow after seeing the pics and save :)

anarres
08-05-2004, 16:09
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200458145520_AG8IndiaSumeriaPeace.jpg
346.82KB

2 more pics to do, the upload is v slow though atm :(

Beam
08-05-2004, 16:18
Can someone post a link to the relevant CFC thread? I know CFC is down but it may be a good read next week. ;)

Aggie
08-05-2004, 16:27
Beam, you only have to check my sig as soon as CFC is up again.

anarres
08-05-2004, 16:51
Shit, in the end I had to FTP them to get them on. [rolleyes]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/AG8260ADmap.jpg

AG8: 260AD (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/AG8Sid260AD.sav)

Aggie
08-05-2004, 17:00
But it's there now [thumbsup] What a great empire we have. And look at all those expanded borders :)

anarres
08-05-2004, 17:18
Yep. I've never snagged ToA before, but I always wanted to. [love]

Aggie
08-05-2004, 17:26
I agree with building up our military as Nad suggests. So when will our next attack be? And are we doing after the Byzantines?

anarres
08-05-2004, 18:29
A couple of thoughts:

It is possible to abandon a city with 3 center food by building a settler at size 2 with a negative/0 food surplus. It is not possible however to abandon by building a worker at size 1.

Also, you get a rep hit if you have a gpt deal with a civ that dies. The only way to get free deals is to make an MA against a civ that is about to die - the deal gets cancelled without a rep hit. I am 100% sure on this. (Of course, we already lost our deal with Sumeria, but if India was wiped out we would have lost our rep forever).

Building military is fine, but I think our cities should have Markets/Courthouses/Granaries/Harbours first.

Greebley
09-05-2004, 06:56
Ok, I got it.

In a recent game I made a gpt deal with one civ. It died and I got my money back. I liked it so much I did it again with another civ that was destroyed. My rep seemed fine after all this. So I would have said I was sure in the opposite direction - unless I misunderstand what you are saying, Anarres.

I probably will be looking at a byzantine attack with an alliance with Sumeria. Not sure such an attack will happen on my turn - if we seem ready I was going to go for it. I am not playing toninght (probably tomorrow) so I will read any discussion before I play.

Aggie
09-05-2004, 07:21
quote:Originally posted by anarres

Building military is fine, but I think our cities should have Markets/Courthouses/Granaries/Harbours first.


I totally agree. We have finished these vital improvements in a couple of cities now.

Aggie
09-05-2004, 07:28
In 3 turns we get 60 gpt back from the AI. Is that the time to revolt?

anarres
09-05-2004, 15:05
Greebley, I guess I could be wrong then. I had read studies that said lux deals with civs that die give you a rep hit, I naturally assumed this applied to all per-turn things including gold.

If you have an MA with another civ and are giving GPT for it you definitely don't get a rep hit - this can be massively exploited (and has recently been posted on CFC in detail). I tested this and it is indeed true. You can pay other civs 100's of GPT for an MA against a civ you are about to wipe out, then sell techs to get the GPT back, then wipe the civ out, all in the same turn. The net affect is the AI paying you 100's of GPT they don't have and a clean rep. Highly exploitative.

Greebley
09-05-2004, 21:25
Preturn: Cities all look good. I liked Aggies point on the deals running out. Will revolt in 2 or 3 I think. I will definitely not be doing any voluntary warfare on my turns. Republic is highest priorty.

IBT: Portuguese finish Sistine.
Build settler

270 AD: Why do we want to move Bangalore? The spot its in gives less room to the AI. I would rather put a town in between. Switch Bangalore off worker for a turn so it can grow first. I want to see if I can make it non-indian.

IBT:

280 AD: Bangalore grows. I switch back to a worker at a loss of a shield and make the Indian a taxman - I want to test if I can choose which citizen to turn into a worker.

IBT: Demand of 50 gold.

290 AD: Nope the town is still indian. The other time was coincidence. I wonder how it chooses which citizen becomes the Worker then?
Well it is revolt time - We pull 7 turns - Too bad - I have to make some taxmen to afford it. (6 or less would have been affordable).

300 AD:

310 AD

320 AD:

IBT: Persians are destroyed.

330 AD:

340 AD:

IBT: See lots of spear of Byzantine on the move with our boat. Looked to be heading to Sumeria. War in their future? That would be nice.

350 AD: I will also take an extra turn for the same reason as Nad - as to not give the next player a single turn of anarchy. Trade engineering to Rome for some small gpt.

360 AD: Adjust cities for Republic.

Notes:
I did not complete diplomacy. There is a 3-fer that will almost certainly work available - but would cost us the opportunity to attack the Byzantines.
Byzantines are lacking iron. If we renegotiated peace we could pick up Theology from them for iron and some gpt (I am unsure if we can get it for pure gpt - I am guessing no). Which could be traded for Chivalry from the Incas who lack it; then 2 civs have invention which could be traded for using both theology and chivalry. I am unsure if further trade would be then available, but it is possible (for example the byzantines don't have chivalry so we could them for that.

We have plenty of Infra to build if we do want to put off war. Many towns are not yet ready for it.

Question: Do we want to put off war 20 turns and strengthen Byzantine for 3 or more techs? I feel it is worth it.

We have 124 gpt and 4 gold. Here are the known techs currently avail

India: Invention
Portugal: Theology, Invention, Chivalry
Inca: Chivalry, Invention (don't think we have the gpt to buy chivalry - not sure though)
Rome: Same as us. Broke (I took their gpt for Engineering).
Byzantines: Theology, Invention - Lacking Iron.
Sumeria: Invention.

No picture as the situation is the same.

Greebley
09-05-2004, 21:27
Still uploading: it is taking forever.

Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif 20045920453_AG8Sid360AD.zip (http://www.danwilliamson.net/forum/uploaded/greebley/20045920453_AG8Sid360AD.zip)

Aggie
09-05-2004, 21:37
We are not the first to go :) And also won't be the 2nd. It's great that the puny tribe of India has a tech over us. I assume that the Inca still don't know Sumeria, so a gpt deal should be possible. Only issue is that at Sid high prices are asked for techs...

anarres is up, I'm on deck.... I can't wait to have a look at the game!
The download doesn't work...

Greebley
09-05-2004, 22:04
The download is hanging. I tried a second time.

[Edit: The Incas do not know Sumeria yet; We can't buy Chivalry though with our 124 gpt. We need to use the Iron I think to afford anything. We can trade the iron with India too, but that seems a very poor idea.

[edit2: It does mean that Theology is more likely to buy chivalry straight up from the Inca; we buy at 3rd and sell at 3rd instead of 4th]

Aggie
09-05-2004, 22:23
I am inclined to go for the deal, without having seen the save. We could use the 20 turns to build ourselves a nice knight army.

Greebley
09-05-2004, 23:15
Well the downloads are all timing out. Annares, should I email it to you? I don't think I have your email addy.

(I will check PM too)

anarres
09-05-2004, 23:21
anarres AT civ3duelzone dot com

The upload can be very annoying sometimes, although often it is very quick. [ponder]

Aggie
09-05-2004, 23:25
I like the save as well :) agelingw AT xs4all dot nl

Greebley
10-05-2004, 01:45
I argee on going for the deals. Printing press is very close so its the last trade where we have a communication advantage, and the tech line up is very much in our favor.

Annares, Are you after me? I seem to recall so, but am not at all sure. I send you and aggie the save so hopefully you both got it.

----------------
Aside: The only reason not to make the deals is because we are going to play extremely agressively. For that case I would abandon building anything other than military needs and start attacking Byzantines almost immediately. I am less sure of a win if we do it that way, but I suspect either way could lead to a win. I am more comfortable with the build up of our resources before we attack.

Aggie
10-05-2004, 07:39
Greebley, could you send me the save? :)

EDIT: Greebley, you probably didn't send it to the correct address. Anarres is indeed after you.

EDIT2: I see! You sent it to my old mail address :)

Aggie
10-05-2004, 08:34
I saw the save and I fully agree that we have to make these deals. It is too good to miss, especially on Sid (imho). Portugal is building Copernicus, which means at least Education and Astronomy. This also suggests that even more than a 3fer is possible. But it appears that we have to use the renegotiate peace option.

Aggie
10-05-2004, 08:43
It appears that CFC may be up pretty soon (within a couple of hours, according to Thunderfall's announcement). I will then copy the most essential posts (on topic -not the upload issues and e-mails) from here to there...