EU elections

[Matrix]

What will you vote? :)

Here (http://www.electionworld.org/election/europeanunion.htm) is some info about the elections and what parties there are.

This is what the Stemwijzer [rolleyes] suggested:
http://www.straland.com/junk/StemadviesEU2004.gif
But I thought about that already. [:p]

What are D66 & CU/SGP doing so far up? [hmm]

(CDA = EPP)
(D66 = ELDR)
(ChristenUnie/SGP = EDD)
(VVD = ELDR)
(LPF = EPP???)
(GroenLinks = GR/EFA)
(PvdA = PES) edit: forgot to mention. http://www.straland.com/images/smilies/embarassed.gif
(SP = EUL)

[Skyfish]

@Matrix : [vomit]


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2004429113544_Stemadvies.jpg


:D

[Kingreno]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004429114722_stemadviesrr.jpg
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:D

[Matrix]

Hey Sky, that's close to my advice upside down. :D

And KingReno, I guess you can be happy that D66 and VVD are in the same party. ;)

[Shabbaman]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Shabbaman/200442912234_stemwijzershabba.jpg

Heh.

I'll vote GL like the previous time(s). If the party drops next dutch elections, I'll switch to SP though. A larger party has more influence.

[Beam]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004429123632_stemadvies.jpg
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Hm, center but not ever will I vote CDA. Not sure if I will vote because the EU is a disaster in terms of representative democracy, decision making and bureaucracy. My vote most likely will go to a party with a strong program to reform the EU addressing these issues.

[Aggie]

I just did a test at my therapist. I'm not going to do another one today [sleep]

[ERIKK]

[lol]



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2004429145229_naamloos.gif
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[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

Hm, center but not ever will I vote CDA.
Why not?
quote:Originally posted by Beam

Not sure if I will vote because the EU is a disaster in terms of representative democracy, decision making and bureaucracy. My vote most likely will go to a party with a strong program to reform the EU addressing these issues.
Voting nothing won't solve that issue. At least vote for the other subjects then.

[Skyfish]

Isnt Erikk's score amazing ?
He agrees with everybody a little bit, in a perfect mixture of left and right, and disagrees with absolutely no-one [lol]
[rotfl]

[smalltalk]

What we really need is a possibility to make a vote in the category:

- non of the parties mentioned above

with the result, that parliament seats won by these anti-group would remain empty. The non-voters and the dissenters have to be represented fairly in our parliaments.

This would perhaps lead to a higher percentage of people taking part in elections - or to a completely empty parliament.


***


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[Beam]

@Matrix:

quote:Why not? All personal of course. I am a non-theist, so no desire to vote a party with a theological base. Also, I don't like their view on (family) values etc., which does not say I find values (normen en waarden) not important. CDA is acting to much as a school teacher there (fatsoensrakkers). Sorry for the Dutch words, if someone knows an equivalent in English, plz!

@All

Also imo: the horrible compromise the EU is as a European institution at the moment makes it so ineffective that it should either move to a federal model like the US or Germany (I am not saying I like US or German politics ;)) or go to a more loose confederation of nations as the EC used to be. Since I am an optimistic as well I think a federal Europe can be very promising so that is what I am leaning to.

The issues with the current model are:
- The Democratic part of it is covered by a single chamber European Parlement where the division of seats is primarely based on population per nation. This means that it is much easier to find a majority covering the interests of large nations compared to a majority covering the interests of small nations.
- The Government part of it is covered by the European Commision where the representation is not based on population but on equality, i.e. each member state has one representative. (There have been discussions about large nations having two representatives but that is stalled iirc).
- The European Commission being both the executing power and the base for equality make it very troublesome for decision making (because it is very difficult to achieve a majority and/or avoid a veto) and supporting a federal Democratic model (because it is an executing power, not a democratic body where a government normally reports to).

This can be solved if:
1) A second type of chamber with voting power is introduced where all nations have the same number of representatives. Very common in most if not all democracies in the world and with various abilities (the UK House of Lords isn't a typical example imo).
2) A government (replacing the European Commision) reporting to the parlement is introduced. This is the hardest part because it means that each nation has to abandon its veto on execution and has to live with the representative government.

While I am in writing mood some more personal views on politics (I don't like politics btw, just like to write how screwed politics are ;)):
- There is the strong presidential model like the US and France have.
- And the strong Prime Minister model like most Constitutional Monarchies have.

The strong presidential model imo means that every couple of years a lot of money is spend putting one person in power. That person only can be relieved from his/her position if he/she can't explain with a straight face why a certain part of a certain tape was erased. That's it. If you can explain in public what your definition of sex is no issue. No need to be able to speak and say sentences of more than 5 words without reading them from a telewriter. You can accuse anyone of having WMD, go there and don't find a trace. Just make the people believe Muslim is equivalent to terrorist and you're settled. If there are to many bodybags hire mercenaries or censor the networks.

The Constitutional Monarchy seems to be much less democratic but to be honest, what power do Kings and Queens really have nowadays? Mostly Queens btw. Not a lot, pay them ransom every year and they will open supermarkets, offices, launch ships, you name it. Good for exports as well.

That leaves the issue why some PM's seem to be more powerfull than others in the Constitutional Monarchy model. That brings us to the model of representative Democracy itself:
- Why is there a minimum percentage of votes in a lot of countries to be able to get the seats in the Parlement?
- How is it possible that a party gets a high percentage of the votes but only a limited number of seats because the votes they get are spread thinly over many districs?
- Why are there nations that have an official democratic constitution but are in fact ruled by a small dictatotarial group?
- And last but not least: what is the driver behind a real Democracy. Or even: is Democracy the ultimate type of government?

Imo a mix might work well for the EU. A lot of the German federal model (not a Constitutional Monarchy but with a ceremonial president) but without the minimum percentages of votes bar.

All personal views and please do not feel offended by the examples I used.

[Hygro]

I wanna take it but I only speak English. What do I do?

[Aggie]

I'm not surprised:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200443095320_stemwijzeraggie.JPG
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[ERIKK]

quote:Originally posted by Skyfish

Isnt Erikk's score amazing ?
He agrees with everybody a little bit, in a perfect mixture of left and right, and disagrees with absolutely no-one [lol]
[rotfl]
I am a bit suprised I have things in common with the SGP and LPF.

Well, uhhmm suprised??? I mean scared!!!! [shabba]

[Skyfish]

quote:I wanna take it but I only speak English. What do I do?
Learn Dutch [:p]

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by Beam

All personal of course. I am a non-theist, so no desire to vote a party with a theological base. Also, I don't like their view on (family) values etc., which does not say I find values (normen en waarden) not important. CDA is acting to much as a school teacher there (fatsoensrakkers). Sorry for the Dutch words, if someone knows an equivalent in English, plz!
I can fight it all, but I don't know if you want a debate. [tongue]

[anarres]

Beam, like you I am not fond of politics, but can see many flaws.

I do not believe that you have to have a solution to a problem to be able to identify the problems, although the amount of times people say to me "what do you suggest instead then?" would imply that most people do believe this. [rolleyes]

The concept of a president is abhorrent to me. This embodies the idea that one person can represent a nation, even more than a Prime Minister. How a country of millions of people can ever be represented by an individual is beyond me. In an ideal system we would all have direct control over the way our lives are run, with basic minimum laws to protect individuals. As it is we get to choose from a range of parties - none of which will ever represent our views fully, and then one person in that party represents the whole of that party in many aspects of government. :(

I can say that in my ideal govenrment there would be no parties, no single leader, free votes on all issues, no laws protecting coperations, many human rights laws to protect the individual and many laws ensuring the basic protection of our planet. Of course this system could never come in to practice without a major cultural revolution. People feel safe being told what to do, they feel safe, even when the laws are restricting them and unfair.

I know very little about the EU system, but I do know that several EU human rights laws have improved conditions for many many workers in this country. I also know that a lot of money is spent in the EU, and I have to admit I know little about how this money is spent. There is much more open trade which I believe is good, although free trade should be global. The US is the worst perpretrator of unfair trading laws, but I am sure the EU is doing it's best to be just as restrictive to other nations in the attempt to make it's own position stronger against the US.

I just spilt my coffee all over my desk so I gtg and clean it up, but I guess what I've written is a fairly good representation of some of my thought on government. As I said when I started: I don't have many workable solutions, but I can see the problems nevertheless. :)

Beam - for a more thoughtful reply you will need to wait until I have time to think about it, this is just a braindump atm...

[Matrix]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

I do not believe that you have to have a solution to a problem to be able to identify the problems, although the amount of times people say to me "what do you suggest instead then?" would imply that most people do believe this. [rolleyes]
Yep, that's the problem I usually have with lefties: they give examples of flaws, usually in the capitalistic system...and they're right. But the alternative is even worse!
In the traditional capitalism vs communism/socialism discussion: you just gotta give people some reward for their effort.
quote:Originally posted by anarres

The concept of a president is abhorrent to me. This embodies the idea that one person can represent a nation, even more than a Prime Minister. How a country of millions of people can ever be represented by an individual is beyond me. In an ideal system we would all have direct control over the way our lives are run, with basic minimum laws to protect individuals. As it is we get to choose from a range of parties - none of which will ever represent our views fully, and then one person in that party represents the whole of that party in many aspects of government. :(
The idea of a parliament instead of a direct democracy is that we don't have the knowledge and know-how how to solve problems. We let others do that for us, full time.

And then the government. I think it's unpractical when you have a huge team governing a region. Imagine what will happen when everyone is allowed to make suggestion/initiatives! [eek] In the Netherlands parties in the parliament are also allowed to make initiatives and make the appropriate minister do what they want him to do. IMO this is ideal, but you shouldn't go any further.

I don't like the idea of a president either though. Indeed: that's too much concentrated power. But the indirect democracy is just more effective. ;)

[Swingue]

I tried as well,

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/swingue/200453115821_vote_swingue.GIF[/img]
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pretty clear for me.