Kingreno vs Anarres ***SPOILER***

[Kingreno]

in turn 106:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004311204828_GREATLIB.jpg
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[cool]

[ERIKK]

Arrrhhhhhggg my eyes!!!

This is too much info about your game! ;)

[Kingreno]

So you want to know how, why, what and so on?[:p]

[ERIKK]

Yeah! And add some stuff about our game too! [satan]

[ProPain]

More spoilers!

[Kingreno]

Ok, here is how it began:

We find ourselves, sons of Baal-Hammon of Phoenicia, on the beach of our new Lands:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004313113818_start.jpg
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Our workers find cattle nearby and therefor start works to get that tile irrigated the moment our borders expand, meaning we will not mine the Sugar yet.
From Intel we hear that we are on an archipelago map, on Deity Level, with 6 AI opponents and one human opponent, the respected Anarres, playing the Byzantines. As can be seen, we picked teh Industrious and Seafaring Carthaginians ourselves.
This meant, that we start with Alphabet and Masonry. Off course the mear rumors of nearby cattle led to a very certain pursue of Pottery, with writing after that. [cool]
Our scouting warrior soon found a second cattle to the north and no efforts were spared to get a settler out of carthage as soon as possible. The city of Utica was founded and would have the sole mission of becoming a 4-turn-setler factory. It was barely possible to do this since Utica suffered from one corrupted shield! But nevertheless, it could be done.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004313114224_areaturn30.jpg
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As can be seen, the current layout woth two irrigated cows allows for Utica to trade a cow for a irrigated plaiens every other turn, so that Carthage itself can still benefit from it when Utica does not need it.
Also, another problem arrises. The mountain range South of Carthage means that we cannot get fresh water in the Plains area there, thus making it far less productive. A city must be founded on these hills somewhere to get the water through.[hmm]
Furthermore, Carthage was to build Curaghs mainly, meaning no granary and also no building costs. The scouting thusfar shows that Utica's setlers, with some extra's from other cities will be more then enough to fill the entire island.
Yes, we are alone. We have found the English recently but they are one square beyong even galleyrange and thus are no threath to our island. Likewise, and invasion of England will probably be delayed till Astronomy.
The English are very advanced already, leading us by 6 techs. We pursue literature after writing and in our third city leptis magna, a Palace was started the very second is was founded.[evil]

NOOOOOOOOO!
Barbs, while we were supposed to play "no-barbs".
I manage to rescua one setler by luring the barb towards a worker (who dies). I am NOT prepared at all for this.
Anarres and I agree to play on however.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20043131213_barbsaaaarghh.jpg
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Somewhere along the line, I meet Anarres!! He has explored the whole world while my people seem to celebrate "national-Curragh-Sinking-Day" just a bit too often
He is very advaced as well, though he lacks literature! We trade Lit for MM and give in 50 gold in the process. England then pays me the wheel, BW, WC and CB for lit.
Anarres knows England and by selling lit around I am risking the fact that someone else will build teh Glib, but off course, not selling would mean Anarres selling it around.
On the bright side, I find the Netherlands a turn later and after making an embassy with Anarres I notice they ar at war!!! That in turn means, that i can sell Literature to teh Dutch, getting me Math and Philo and 200 gold[eek].
My first galley sails north some turns later and finds teh French and The Germans on turn 90. After Literature and the mentioned trades I went full ahead to curency adn upon finding the two new players, I notice they are Monarchy! Howver, the suckers lack writing!!!
I sell them a lot, getting me IW, Poly and even Monarchy. The latter not for teh gov, but is the Great Library fails, I can at least switch to the Gradens.
A few turns later I get Currency and France pays: 460 g + 40 gpt for it!!! wtf!!![goodjob]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004313122058_570f4.jpg
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Right now, we are at turn 107 and as could be seen we have build the Glib, forcing Anarres to gift his precious techs away and getting me into a 7 turn anarchy to Republic. He himself is also a republic with a bery short anarchy![rant]
The Island:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200431312293_107areaa.jpg
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And the Minimap:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004313123041_107minimap.jpg
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[Skyfish]

So whats the plan Stan ? [groucho]

Well played btw [goodjob]

[Kingreno]

The plan...

is to invade Anarres. :D

The GreLib gave me a tech every 8 turns or so, so in turn 130 (or so) it ended in education, with GP on the bottom half of the techladder as the last free tech. I Went full speed at Chemistry and got it 1 turn after the Dutch, who however did not sell it to anyone!
I did, netting me no techs, but 200 gpt and 600 cash from the ai.
for the past 40 turns, I ran positive with the taxslider at zero.

Anarres has done very well. He used his scientific trade well, and also was able to buy/sell around the AI most of whom do not know eachother. At one point I send a brave galley of mine into his waters and without warning it was sunk by his stupid dromon!!!![aargh]

GA for him which gave him astronomy and Navigation as monopoly techs. I was going full speed at Metalurgy and hope to get it first as well. He used Navigation of course to trade his way to ultrahapiness (4 extra luxes...) so that gave me the idea to MA the world against him which was very easy. Good luck with your monopoly Anarres.[evil]

It all depends for me if I get metalurgy first. That would renew the GPT deals (though that way be fucked when Anarres MA's them back) and net me the upperhalve techs. 2 turns to go...[crazyeye]

I have also been keeping a close eye on the F3 screen and that shows me I am still average to Anarres. That means he is very likely not invading me with something heavy [cool], since my mili is a couple of warriors and some Ancient Cavalry (built Zeus in Carthage). I also know he has a decent number of Dromons, so his total land army is even smaller then mine and that, believe me, could mean not a single land unit at all. I am curious as to what will happen when I land two ancient cav next to a core city in 8 turns.[fdevil]

screenies to follow...

[Skyfish]

You gonna invade him with what than ? Cavs ?
How do you gonna avoid getting your invasion force sunk by his Dromons ?
Are you already building your invasion force right now ?

[Kingreno]

[blush] It has been too long...sorry guys, I hope a bigger update will again spark some interest in a game that turns out to be very close.

We find ourselves in 700 AD abd are well into the Industrial age. But first some things about how we got there...

At one time, half way during teh last age, Anarres and me where making MA's vs eachother a lot. This also assured some very aggresssive techtrading on both sides. He got a very nice banking monopoly which he used extremely effective, netting him all the remaining obligatory MA-techs but ToG and Mag. He then got one of these and traded it for the otehr with Germany and Holland, exchanging his free tech with Germany's. The techs being Medicine and Steam. I "suddenly" lack: banking, Physics, ToG and Mag. Not to mention the IA-techs!
But naturaly, Hanibal was not sitting by idle during this time. Based on my opponents I decided to head for Music Theory! With Backwards India being the only religious civ (who tend to research it) I got a monopoly on it! Trading metalurgy with the french for Physics and doing a full speed run on ToG after that, gave me some time however to keep MT for myself and at one point:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200452102247_bachs.jpg
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This btw led to the Germans switching to Newtons denying it Anarres who had ONE turn to go on it. Rumors say that the Bank in Adrianopolis has an Educative touch on it.[lol]

I traded MT around a few turns before completion ond I got all MA-techs. That brought me the possibility to get IA-techs as well!
I was at this point still at war with England and I decided taht this was the time to trigger a GA. I needed it a lot to get close to Anarres again who is undoubtly going straight to ToE.
I "invade" england with two Numidian Mercs, and the result is quite
Impressive:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20045210276_englandGAlanding.jpg
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and

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20045210287_Goldenage.jpg
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I CAPTURE dover with two mercs both defeating a spear!:D
I make a nice peace deal with lizzie and as she was giving one of her saltpeter away to some other civ, I could give her "mine" that I found near teh hills of Dover!
Then there are teh Sumerians. They are at war with Anarres and are backwards. I gift them all the techs they need to get them into the next age. Starting with Theology and Invention so they got a whole age from me. Their free tech was Medicine and for Nav, chiv, MT, PP and some gold I trade it with them.
I am now behind Steam Power and Miltrad. Next, in my GA I go max on Nationalism(8 turns) because teh Sid game thought me the AI will never trade it in any reasonable way. Also, I am confident that in my GA I will outresearch the AI to it. It works! I get it on monopoly and after very carefull considderation I decide to give it to Germany, who pay the price! I get Democracy, Steam Power and Miltrad, and 16 gpt (max). I deliberately hold back on giving other AI Nationalism, at elast till they got something better to offer then World maps and 2 gold. Anarres is sucking them empty.[aargh]

This brings us to the date we are now. 700 AD. I am heading for electricity. If I get it before Anarres I am sure I get Toe as well. But a tie could mean a very exiting run indeed. Or, if he gets electricity next turn, I will not make it. probably. My strenght now is my GA! I have science on 80%, with uni's almost everywhere.

The talk of the lands:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200452103845_700adhomelands.jpg
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As known, Anarres' island is exactly the same as mine, so the difference in cityplacement is interesting. This is his island:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200452104118_700adanarreslands.jpg
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Please do note I am industrious, so some less junglechopping on his side is explainable. Nice to see the denser strategy vs the more or less OCP. I remain in doubt which is the best. The OCN is 17 here.

As Anarres held SP several turns more that I he has Railroaded some more. I am catching up using the trait! :)
As I am not 100% sure this is "the" most accurate version of his TM we should not elaborate too much on it, though I do not think he has mined all mountains yet, for example.

The friends:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20045210475_700adf4.jpg
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Anarres and I, as written in the Open thread, have peace till turn 220. Which is 34 turns from now. Our "war" is thus phoney. But I do not want him research my cities.

The f11:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200452104923_700adf11.jpg
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In a GA here!

The minimap:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200452105014_700adminimap.jpg
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The future:

It all again depends on who gets Toe. However, if I miss it, and I estimate chances about 60% that I will miss it, I will get Rep parts before the peace treaty expires. I deem an invasion very unlikely, but not impossible. At least I am still up Nationalism.[hmm]

The dover alternative: If Anarres and I agree to extend the peacetreaty or if I can spare some forces, England is my target, they are close, have two lux, decent lands and I have a beachhead there! I estimate 20-30 cav to sweep the island, more if lizzie gets Nationalism. We shall see, but again, it is ToE that will decide a lot.

I will keep you posted!:)

[Skyfish]

Great stuff !
Get him, kill him, mince him, lynch him [mad3]

[Kingreno]

So...my plan to get (even close to) ToE has Failed. Anarres was apparently a lot sooner to the technology then our prophets thought. Stupid them. There are even horible rumours that he has chosen AT and Electronics and some Moron claimed full responisibility for this and was reported as a "Scientific Great leader"[aargh].
Naturally...Us Carthaginians renounce this concept and even more so because a few years later this guy "suddenly" builds a great dam, names it after a "president" of a Civilization This world has no knowledge of and then disappears!!! Such lies!!
So? Is this a time for giving up??? No way! Lets look at some other aspects of the world. Anarres...had conquered the Netherlands! At least, their main island! [aargh] Stupid William had all his units in England. In a few turns, bye bye Rotterdam, bye bye Utrecht, bye bye EINDHOVEN!!! Now he has done it. One does NOT RAZE MY HOMETOWN![mad]
Techs. he leads...AT, Electronics, Repparts, ScI Meth and Sanitation over me![:o]. He has inf and the landing in 15 turns will mean inf on my continent![help]. Also. I have no inf yet, though I will get it before the invasion.
This would mean give up KR, or are you stalling, where it not so that Carthaginian Scientists have for long kept a VERY dark secret from the known world; WE proved in turn 197, now 8 turns ago, that IRON CAN FLOAT!![cool] The new tech Ironclads is seldom researched but in this mad islandworld where sails still think they rule there is One King of the seas: The Carthaginian Ironclad. I could easily do 4fer with this technology netting me Repparts, sanitation adn sci meth but I simply cannot let Anarres get Ironclads ANY turn sooner then needed. They Upgrade from nothing (but TO destroyers!) so he should not be able to have many of these monsters by the time we go to war. may I also add that Ironclads are better in c3c, with 5(6).6.3 as the stats, add one movement for seafaring civs and we have a very big boat, a bit slow, but very sturdy!
I expect to have around 25 of these in 15 turns![evil]

The strategic concept. Main rule, I invade him, his fleet gets a look at the oceanfloor, along with the inf in it.

The maps:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200451721211_205area.jpg
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My island has RR at most important places, the rest are mountains and some adjustments to irrigated plains to mine for more production. I am, mobilized, number one in MFG and 2 in other important stats.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200451721444_205minimap.jpg
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The plan: there are two fleets that consist of galleons. One is now to the north of my lands and will head east. It will hold a bit north between Anarres' two islands. They will move to a point where they can strike both islands. Anarres will very likely place galleons between his lands, loaded, so he can enforce the island under attack. he will also send his navy north. My galleons will arrive in 10 turns. These Galleons are empty. [eek]
A second fleet housing 20 cav and 8 rifles has gone south. It will go south of india to the east and will hold within 2 or 3 moves south of contantinople. Ironclads are on their way to shield them. It is imperative Anarres does not see this fleet, and is also the reason it left now. I expect his boats to come and scout my islands any time now. I will also send 10 Ironclads to the area between the islands and tehse can effectively block the searoute there. He MUST unload the troops in a city to be effective the same turn. If he cannot, I believe I have a chance.
A second number of Ironclads, and this depends on confidence since I will need a number at home will head for constantinople for bombing. I tested it and it is very effective with oen out of 6 hits getting a population point!

We will see, in 15 turns.

[Kingreno]

Update!

The game is now on turn 119 which I just send to Anarres. He will have first strike on turn 220, but I do not expect an invasion of my lands just yet. I have forced Anarres into a defensive position which will not be easy for him at all.
I never expected 30 turns ago that the newly added Ironclad tech would be this crucial in this (or any) game. I have withstood many tempting offers for it and still hold monopoly!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20046241379_turn119minimap.jpg
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As can be seen, Anarres now holds 3 islands. His starting island is naturaly the most important one and will be very heavily defended. To the west of that is former Dutch terrain rich with resources and semi productive. It also holds Magellans in Amsterdam. To the Southeast a tundra island with two luxes for him. No production.

This in many situations would be a very good position indeed. But not so when your opponent has:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200462413946_turn199fleet.jpg
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And please remember that the best boat Anarres has is a 2.2.7 Frigate. I will have 12 more Ironclads in 4 turns. My plan is to use this fleet for seadominance and bombardment. I will land 28 units soon too. But I will wait a bit to see what he does.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2004624131212_turn199warzone.jpg
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East of Ohrid, dummy invasionfleet threatning two islands, SW of spetum, the 28 Carthaginian heroes. Everywhere: Ironclads![cool]

[Aggie]

Interesting game :D

[Lt. Killer M]

hm, does any one of you have an intelligance agency?
if I was him I'd get one and try to see what's on that fleet - it is a tiny bit obviously positioned. I'd think 'trap' if I was him.....

[Plux]

Very interesting. I think I've never seen a good naval strategy in PBEM. Make sure to keep us updated as much as possible and good luck!

[Kingreno]

I Gave up the game.[aargh][cry]

Anarres played an awesome game and used far superior strategy, rightfully sending me further down the ladder.[goodjob]

But.

Naval Bombardment utterly SUCKS!!![wallbash]

Why? here's why!

When bombarding a city with, say, 15 Ironclads, the enemy ships in port are ALWAYS targeted first, then ALWAYS the garrisoned units are targeted, only when ALL units are redlined, pop and buildings (which is what we want) are hit.[aargh][aargh][aargh]
This is horseshit! And so easily defended against!!! Just put two galleons, an obsolete frigate and two cav in the cities that are about to be attacked and you will suffer NO damage at all. The hitpoints heal the next turn. In our game, Anarres could have easily waited for he researched destroyers and meanwhile suffer only minor annoyances from my bombing.
I feel seriously disappointed by this. The logic is also completely gone. I have a fleet of 70 Ironclads, as turn 220 approached (end of peacedeal) I tell Anarres this (why not? hehe) and he is obviously not too happy. However, once it is clear he will (worst case) lose only a few Railroaded Grasslands, which are repaired the next turn, he can outtech me with ease, and no need for a huge military at all. [sad]
Logic. This is a game but if Infantry are in a city, which is bombarded, would they always die (but not completely) before the temple/harbour/rax/cath/ect is hit? So the troops in civ actually are a human shield for the buildings (...they are supposed to hide in in the case of bombardment). Also, the ships in port are naturally hit first (but never sunk!!!!). Just some holes in the bow, a damaged rudder, no more sails, but hey, just when they are about to sink to the bottom, lets target those cavalry. [rant]

I did make some errors in this game and I would never hide behind this bombing to explain a loss. I just like the way it worked in civ/vanilla better.

So, [party] for Anarres, and a lesson learned for KR: use boats for fishing and Inbading.

[Aggie]

KR, sorry about your loss. But the naval bombardment works exactly like artillery bombardment afaik. Arty will also target ships first.

There's actually one early boat with lethal sea bombardment: the dromon. That's why you don't want to upgrade them.

[Lt. Killer M]

ah, artillery will NOT redline all units before anything else in any version up to patch... 1.15 C3C? I fell for that one also :(

sorry, KR, you had a great strategy there!

[anarres]

It's a shame you gave up KR, I was really worried about your ships bombarding my *tiles*, not my cities.

Still, I will post my (HUGE) spoiler update tomorrow. FWIW I went not just for OCP but for 2 islands, both highly productive. Just before KR gave up my capital moved to the Dutch mainland with size 7+ cities and fully developed land.

My main island actually had my smallest number of units, as I was expecting an invasion of one of my other islands. The 20+ Cav that landed next to Constantinople very nearly took it out, and was only stopped by the 10+ drafted Infs. If you had gone to the southern city, that only had about 6 defenders in total, and you would have probably taken it...

[anarres]

Something else worth mentioning: I had just offered KR Industrialisation for 20 turns of peace, so it really was quite a shock to see him resign!

[Kingreno]

The southern city was size 18, constantinople size 12, so easy choice there.

And I realy saw no point in any peacedeal. I estimated your Gpt-income from AI at about 500. So you could always run max science, my fleet required 170 gpt alone.