Fair Starts (Digger, Kuningas & Stagnate) -Spoiler

[Markstar]

I thought while I'm at it I might as well open up a thread about this game. It's with Digger (Koreans), Kuningas (Ottomans) and Stagnate (Carthaginians). We have AP on for this one so things would go a little quicker.
I created and posted the map a while back at CFC.
Later I was looking for some people to play it with, but it took forever until some signed on. Actually, after the first 2 volunteered all of a sudden there were so many that we had to start 3 games. This one is the only one that is still going. I don't have the bix anymore (lost in hard drive crash) and CFC seems to have deleted all older posts ([?]) so I can't show you the big picture.

EDIT: Actually, that's not true (about CFC having deleted the posts), so here is the link to the original post where you can get a good picture on how the map looks like:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65113

It is designed for 8 players, all part-continents are exactly equal, down to the last tile. I even placed the luxuries so there is no advantage for anybody. There are 2 continents with 4 players each, the distances to all sides are also equal, of course, and you can cross through all edges. It was quite some work and took me forever, I guess it would be very easy nowadays with this cool map utility (which I havn't tried yet). In this game, 2 players are on one continent with 2 AIs each in between them. I think we are also positioned symmetrical, eg Digger should be where I am on the other continent and Stagnate where Kuningas is (since Kuningas is on my continent).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200431194926_FS Over.jpg
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Anyways, things are going well, as usual. I'm ahead pretty much everywhere. Only one thing: Kuningas is snatching the good wonders aways from me!!!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20043119531_FS Demo.jpg
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He beat me to The Pyramids by just 1 (!) round, and now he's got The Hanging Gardens only 3 turns ahead of me. :(

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200431195112_FS Wonder.jpg
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I think as a result I'll attack him even before taking care of the AI, but I'm not sure yet. I'm only 2 techs away from my UU (I'm playing Arabs, btw), will see how things look then but right now I'm very angry.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200431110348_FS Kun.jpg
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Just settled in the middle to get wines, luxuries are a luxury on this map. ;)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200431195347_FS Wine.jpg
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I'm mostly trying to expand right now. I don't have the money to upgrade a bunch of horsemen anyways. Will concentrate on military VERY soon, though, as soon as I have Chivalry.
I also hope to have Sun Tzu's by that time (I'm ahead in tech, so chances of Kuningas snatching it away are slim).

[Skyfish]

You should edit your title to specify for *whom* this thread is a spoiler !

[Markstar]

You think so? Digger is the only one actually coming from here, I don't think the other 2 know CDZ... but o.k., will do that right away...

[Markstar]

Damn! While looking for a picture of the map, I remembered the island on the outer ring with incense on it! I totally forgot about that one!!! [wallbash]
I could have connected that one ages ago and saved an incredible amount of money!!! Well, it's my #1 priority as of now.
Also, I just settled down in the middle, I hope my 3 spearmen will be enough, but I'm afraid it won't. At least I don't have much money so they can't do much damage (like in Civ I or II, I actually miss that, btw). ;)

[Markstar]

A lot has happened in my favourite game, but only now (after finishing all the 1on1 PBEMs) I find the time to write about it a little.

1200BC: Last round I finished developing Chivalry and am now ready to attack the Zulus. The plan is to trigger a GA, then build up my forces so that I can go after Kuningas asap. He is a high-ranking player over at CFC and also catching up on my quickly. He is still in Despotism so I must conclude he has war on his mind and is most probably going straight for Military Tradition (since that gives him Sipahi and I would be dead meat for sure). [cry]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200456213915_Zulu.jpg
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You can see my roadmap for the attack against the Zulus (basically just going for their capital to secure the luxury resource, then make peace again). Also, Kuningas' cities in the blue area were just founded recently, of course I can't let that policy continue...

[Markstar]

1100BC: 5 turns into the GA, it is about time to attack Kuningas. I fear I might already be too late, but at least he doesn't have Musketmen everywhere (which I would have expected by now), so I might just be in time...
I have 48 Ansar Warriors by now, 15 are part of the initial attack force with ~10 new ones being produced every turn (with about 8 coming from my core).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20045622616_kattack1.jpg
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I landed that stack on the island to help fight the barbarians (and maybe even get a few elites out of it), which have been a little too annoying for my taste. But I actually made a mistake (I expected at least some barbs to attack me) by moving some shops farther towards Kuningas. Now they had to go back one tile to pick the units up. [mad]

1050BC: This is how it looks two turns later, with 68 AWs at the beginning of this turn...

I just landed near Cankiri, looks like my plan has worked. Initially the idea was to push towards his capital right away, but I eventually decided to cause as much havoc as I could on his eastern part of his continent.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200456222542_kattack2.jpg
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[Markstar]

1000BC: 80 Ansar Warriors (+11 next round). [:p]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200456225019_kattack3.jpg
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My landing troop was able to cause quite some damage, I hope that Kuningas will not attack my AWs in Tunceli this round (but I think he will, even though they are fortified and on a mountain), so that I can abandon the city next round and move all 8 (I expect the one that just razed a city up north to be killed) AWs plus 3 Pikemen and the Med. Inf.
There are too many Musketmen around so the push for Istanbul has to wait for now. It is a race against time, I expect Kuningas to have Sipahi any round now. I have no idea how I am supposed to fight those. I started developing towards Musketmen (since the guys on the other continent seem to get nowwhere), but I'm afraid it might be too late now. Otoh, I needed all the money to rush as many AWs as possible...

Well, at least I have some good news - a leader! :D

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200456225737_kattack4.jpg
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Actually I am not sure what to do with it, no wonders to rush right now, I think I will hurry the FP in Zimbabwe, the Zulus' old capital. The thing is, if Kuningas get's Sipahi soon, I will most probably loose it again since I won't get the 2nd core up and running that quickly. But I'm not sure about building an army, either. [confused]

This game is so intense, this is exactly the reason why I need to cut back PBEMs, yesterday I cut another important class to finish the turn and strategizing. [nono]
But I hope I have some spare time soon so I can at least play some games in real time.

[anarres]

Armies are always cool to build Markstar. :)

[akots]

Ya, sipahi rock. They chop through riflemen in no time. Kuningas is probably keeping a bunch of horsemen for instant upgrade while ignoring Chivalry or keeping iron disconnected. But it looks like he is using some of these horsemen to combat with ansars, so may be by pushing really hard, it is possible to crush the Ottomans. It must be not so pleasant with ansars against the muskets...

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by akots

Ya, sipahi rock. They chop through riflemen in no time. Hehe, and I don't even have Muskets yet. [blush2] My only chance will be that I can produce units faster than he can, after all, in GA I can produce 1 AW / turn in all cities that produce 30+ shields (since we play with accelerated production). But Sipahi cost 80 shields (-> 40), and I doubt that he has too many of those (at least that's what I hope).

quote:Kuningas is probably keeping a bunch of horsemen for instant upgrade while ignoring Chivalry or keeping iron disconnected. Yes, my thoughts exactly. And that's exactly the reason why I had to attack asap, because he could simply slaughter my AWs with Knights (since AWs have only 2 defence). He doesn't have Chivalry, so he doesn't need to disconnect iron, plus, he also needs the iron for Muskets, iirc.

quote:But it looks like he is using some of these horsemen to combat with ansars, so may be by pushing really hard, it is possible to crush the Ottomans. It must be not so pleasant with ansars against the muskets... So far he didn't really fight back at all, probably because I didn't give him much to attack in the first place (most my AWs are on the mountain near his city or too far away for him to reach. ;) Also, I have been avoiding going against Musketeers as best as I could, so losses have been pretty limited so far (in the east I was only facing Horsemen, plus 1 or 2 Swords-/Spearmen). But that's going to change now...

I have about 40-50 AWs ready in the east, so I will make the push towards the capital very soon.

I know that armies are always cool to build, but this is the first real LARGER hardcore battle for me (in PBEM). [estwing]

Any advice on the FP/army issue?

[akots]

It is hard to tell how far you can push but IMO, counting on doing some serious damage to the core is not an option. Probably, there is a very tight build there (distance 3-3.5) with lots of units uncluding muskets. Otherwise I don't see a reason for Kuningas to build that many cities but to help with huge unit support cost. And with AP he is probably researching at full pace towards MT. You can face 30-40 or even more Sipahi any turn from now.

Keep an update please, it is getting very intense and interesting.

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by akots

It is hard to tell how far you can push but IMO, counting on doing some serious damage to the core is not an option. Probably, there is a very tight build there (distance 3-3.5) with lots of units uncluding muskets. Otherwise I don't see a reason for Kuningas to build that many cities but to help with huge unit support cost. And with AP he is probably researching at full pace towards MT. You can face 30-40 or even more Sipahi any turn from now.

Keep an update please, it is getting very intense and interesting.
Mmh, I'm not so sure about your assessment. After all, he is still in despotism, which means he should have no trouble with unit support. My guess would be that once he has MT, he will rush Sipahi like crazy.
Actually I forgot to include that, so here comes a screenshot of the culture situation:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20045913058_cult.jpg
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There is obviously a significant jump in culture (so significant that even Stagnate asked me what was going on on my continent, even though I don't know how he could have gotten wind of that (after all, I have the Great Lighthouse and I havn't seen any ships)), my guess is that this is due to Kuningas rushing some libraries.
And since there is a considerable amount of Flood Plains, I expect him to be able to rush a lot of Sipahi. [sad] But this is exactly why I attacked now - to make him rush a few Musketmen so he won't show up with as many Sipahi right away, plus also to slow him down on research. We'll see how it goes any round now, I guess.

BTW, I got a battle report from Kuningas, saying he lost a horse. I wonder where that happened...

[Markstar]

Still waiting for the next turn, Kuningas told me that he killed my 3 AWs in Tuncela, which of course sucks. :(
I think I will still try to go west and hopefully cause some damage there...

[Markstar]

Yeah, finally a new turn!!!

I was able to recapture Tunceli, where Kuningas lost the horse (he said he killed 3 AWs but in fact it was 4, so I was a little confused. Well, I got lucky as well so it could have been worse, I guess. I was even able to kill of some of the remaining forces from the attack. [:p]

Also, since of course I have been thinking a lot about the game, I think I might already attack next turn and not skip Tokat. I expect Sipahi any round now, so I definitely need the strategic advantage, especially when I have the FP nearby. Also, with that city in my hands (and staying like that), I will be able to advance much more quickly towards Kuningas' core. I think it might be my only chance. The blue numbers are the number of AWs in that stack. That makes a total of 48 units (including the single AW and a Med. Inf.)! The question mark is my original plan, but we'll see how that works out...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200451221553_attack.jpg
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Anyways, it's either that turn or the next, I'll think about it some more, but probably end up making a spontaneous decision anyways. ;)

[Markstar]

I decided to attack the following turn, simply because it would just take too long to go around with all my units, plus he'd get a shot at them with all the forced he would have in there. As it turns out that was not an issue, since Kuningas only had Musketmen in Tokat, but I'm glad I did it anyways.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200451884339_Attack950.jpg
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I lost 6 AWs for Tokat and an additional 5 for New Dinizli (the abandoned city next to the fortress). There were about 5 Musketmen in Tokat so thing were going pretty well.
New Dinizli had the number of forces I expected from Tokat, with at least 5 Musketmen and MIs each plus a couple of Horsemen. Luckily Kuningas founded that city on Plains so things weren't that bad (even though I would have hoped for fewer losses there). As a nice bonus I was even able to capture Iskenderun. :)

Meanwhile Kuningas approached me with Musketmen and MIs in the northwest. I decided to try and hold, let him use his units there so I can concentrate on the east. [:p] Only unit I moved out was the elite AW - I put it on a boat and hope it can trigger a leader later on. Oh, talking of leaders - I got another one (as you can see on the picture)! Don't really know what to do with it, no wonders to rush and I find armies quite useless, but army sounded like a right thing. Maybe it will even be of some use by killing a Musketman.

Well, I'm pretty confident now, especially since Kuningas entered Anarchy!!! Why, oh why did he do that??? He wrote me in an email: "I draw 8 turn anarchy :( that´s not nice. It´s pretty much over now." Mmh, according to F3, he just entered Anarchy. Is he trying to scare me (by attempting to let me believe that he's been on anarchy all along)??? I don't get it. But if it's true that he's on Anarchy for 8 turns, I think he's dead...[mwaha]

[anarres]

Yep, looks like game over now. :)

[akots]

Just trying to guess what happened. Why he might want to revolt in the middle of war? May be he thought, his defences were strong enough to stop the Ansars but they are not and now it might be over for Kuningas. Well, it was a gamble from the start to ignore chivalry and proved to be very tough without knights.

Who is next to die?

[Markstar]

I asked Kuningas about the Anarchy (because I was/am pretty suspicious about this behaviour, especially from a top player like him), he said that he didn't want to waste his GA on Despotism but then admitted that now he might not even see his GA at all.

Actually I don't really care that much, it looks right now as if I could have done it either way, this just makes it a little easier.

Imho it was a good decision to go for M.T. directly, depending on how close he got. [coool] What I do not understand is why he waited that long to switch at all. Maybe because he was rushing libraries and then I attacked? But I don't think that's it, after all, he must have know that I was close to AWs (when I built Sun Tzu's).

Right now I'm still focused on this awesome battle. A LOT of fun, more work was left undone because of it. [nono] But for now I think about finishing of the remaining 2 Zulu cities to develop my 2nd core around the FP (btw, does RCP also work around the FP???), then the Russians, of course. Neither of them pose a great threat, I think.
After that I don't know, I'd love to go for RR and fortifying, but I fear this would result in me falling behind tech wise in the long run. So I guess I have to get some ships over to Digger and Stagnate, as I'm sure Digger is plotting my downfall together with the other 3 as he is also doing in Tiny Chaos! [headstab]

[akots]

It might be that the confusion was created by accelerated production. Since length of anarchy is independent on AP, switching goverments later in the game is a huge waste. But earlier it slows down research and expansion. Hence, Kuningas apparently waited and waited, still expnading and researching, apparently getting ahead in techs, but way too long. Got too big and here we go... 8 turns is a killer. With normal production it might be possible to survive. Just a working hypothesis.

[Markstar]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200452485218_900BC.jpg
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This turn 10 AWs were lost capturing Kuningas' capital. Iznik, where the Great Wall, Pyramids and Hanging Gardens are, is within my grasp. [:p] I sure hope Kuningas won't abandon it, but so far he has only abandoned two cities for strategic reasons. Plus, before I take his last city, Iznik especially is in great danger of flipping back, so I'll have to be careful not to station any troops in there (as well as in the other cities). I guess I'll rush a few settlers asap.

Actually I almost regret rushing my FP in the Zulu territory. I did not expect the fight to go that well, otherwise I would have waited a few more rounds and then just rushed it on Kuningas' ground. [ponder]

Also, I just realized that the GL only works with civs that I've met! [wallbash] I guess I have to hurry some galleys over to the others then...[rolleyes]

[Markstar]

[cry] Kuningas abandoned Iznik, which means of course that the Pyramids are lost forever. [cry]

At least I was able to capture Bursa with Leo's Workshop. Too bad I lost 7 AWs against only a few Musketmen but I guess I shouldn't complain. ;)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004527104210_FS875.jpg
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Now I can focus on other things, like getting some galleys over to the other continent or developing my core around the FP. To help accomplish the former, I rushed a few galleys, all I need is for one to make it. Are there any statistics on that? I have two turns that I need to spend on ocean squares... [ponder]
Concerning the 2nd core I built a few settlers already a while ago, they just arrived and now I move them into position. I still have some turns left in GA, hopefully I can make good use of it (like joining a few workers to speed up production, get granaries, libraries and marketplaces done). Too bad I have to build granaries myself now. :(

As you can see on the screenshot, Kuningas is pushing towards Russian territory. I wonder what he has planned. But imho the threat is pretty much over, consequently I slowed down production of AWs and turned towards peaceful improvements. I also delegated some AWs to finish of the Zulus, after all they only have 2 cities left. Then comes Russia. [:p]

[Markstar]

Interesting - Kuningas gifted all his remaining (or so it seems) cities to the Russians. This means I will of course concentrate on his capital. Luckily I have a ROP with Russia, so there will be almost no delay. I'm thinking about taking the Russians anyways, since the cities are undefended right now and will be easy targets. And they are next after Kuningas anyways. [evil]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200462101116_Capital.jpg
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All in all 19 units to attack, I wonder if that's going to be enough.

[Markstar]

Finally a new turn is in. Stagnate was gone all week and since ProPain is also gone, I didn't get to play any Civ at all for quite a while. I actually started a thread in the Opponent Finding Forum (twice), but before sending it off I thought about all the stuff I have to do. [nono]

Anyways, I attacked with the AWs, but Kuningas' last city was actually heavily fortified. I lost 2 AWs and 9 retreated without being able to capture it. It was a mistake not to wait for reinforcements before making the final attack. Of course I have more units coming, but now Kuningas is able to heal his elite Musketmen again. [ponder] Yet I am confident about the final outcome (concerning Kuningas) and begin to concentrate on other things. I will send galleys on their way to the other continent next round, also the Zulus (and, depending on how it goes against Kuningas, the Russians as well) will have to face my mighty warriors once again.

Since I expect Digger and Stagnate to work together against me, I am very worried about keeping up in techs. Looking back I regret not researching for a while (since I didn't realise that I only get techs from the GL when I actually MEET the civs), but otoh I didn't have much of a choice since I needed every unit I could get for the war against Kuningas. I guess I will just research every 4 turns and hope that I make enough money so that I can steal the other techs, though I don't think that will work. It looks like I need to strike soon... [tank]

[Markstar]

BTW, Kuningas is gone, right now I'm at war against the Russians and it's going pretty well. Also, I began sailing towards Digger & Stagnate, hopefully I'll meet them soon to see how they are doing. I think I'll attack them soon, I can't keep up with their research so I'll have to get rid of one other player or at least cripple them.

The development of my 1st core is pretty much done except a few jungle squares, work on my 2nd core is also progressing pretty well. Losing the Pyramids hurt, though, as the cities in my 2nd core could be twice as large by now, plus I wouldn't have to build granaries everywhere. [sad]

GA should be over soon, I'll post some screenshots then (since the demographics should be more representative then).

[Markstar]

Here are the pics, I figured it's time for a complete overview of the continent:

This used to be Kuningas' territory. You can see all the ruins because Kuningas gifted those cities to the Russians and so they were abandoned when I captured them one turn later. [sad]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004630113139_ne.jpg
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War against Russia is progressing well, I just got another leader (I have quite a few elite AWs by now), I think I'll save it for later. ;)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200463011352_nw.jpg
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This is my 2nd core (from the Zulus). ~35 workers are improving the land so things are progressing fairly quickly. It's really a shame about the Pyramids, though...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200463011391_sw.jpg
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And here my 1st core:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004630113659_se.jpg
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Now that the GA is over, "Mfg. Goods" dropped significantly from ~440 to 311. This is more than Digger and Stagnate combined, plus I still have my 2nd core to fully develop, otoh they probably have a lot of room to expand as well.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004630114051_demo.jpg
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[Markstar]

670BC: Alright, the continent is mine! [evil] Russia has only 2 more cities on the island outside their "home", I'll rush some galley to get there asap.

Furthermore, my galleys are in reach of the new world, hopefully I can contact them next round to get some "free" techs. [fdevil] It'll be interesting to see how far they are, but considering that I didn't research at all for quite a while I'm pretty pessimistic. Luckyily I have some money so maybe I can steal some. [:o]

[Markstar]

Yeah, we had one turn/day this whole week!!! [party]

650BC: Reached the other continent from both sides, made contact with Digger.
630BC: Finally contacted Stagnate, that should get me Education right now. I also established embassies (to steal some techs [evil]):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004787737_CapDigger.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004787915_CapStagnate.jpg
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Interestingly, both don't have Salpeter connected even though they do have Gunpowder, that means I have to attack VERY soon. Also, Stagnate is in GA. That is unfortunate as I wanted to attack him first. Now he'll be able to produce units quickly to meet my incoming troops (his production is ~267 now [eek]).
Digger is building a bank, that means he's got banking. I think I'll try to steal that first. I have 3200 gold next round, that should be enough to make 3 cheap attempts...

Are the chances better making immediate attempts (which only cost half as much as the safe ones) or should I spent more money???

Here is a little overview of the current situation.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20047871411_Powergraph.jpg
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[Aggie]

Tech stealing... Hmmm, I know someone who did a quick study on that topic. The results are here:

[urlhttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=63355[/url]

[Markstar]

Hehe, thank you Aggie and ... thanks again Aggie. [goodjob]

So it looks like "carefully" stealing is the best idea right now.

But let's take a look at your numbers again (I should be studying instead, but oh well...):

immediately (diplomat)------------29--------11-------60
carefully (diplomat)--------------51---------9-------40
safely (diplomat)-----------------49--------15-------36
(copyright: Aggie)

Let's include the cost factor now to make it a little clearer. I used the safe diplomat results as base factor, carefully is 1.5 times as cheap, immediately 2 times (eg the costs for carefull tech stealing is 2/3rds of doing it safely...):

immediately (diplomat)------------58--------22-------120
carefully (diplomat)--------------76.5-----13.5------60
safely (diplomat)-----------------49--------15-------36

So, for the same amount of money, you have roughly a 50% better tech stealing rate in "careful" than in the others. Since failed attempts are not that important in PBEM (yes, you have to report failed attempts, but all they can do is declare war on you in return [hmm]).

Furthermore, I make ~250 gpt right now, with "careful" stealing costing ~1200, I'll need 5 turns to make one attempt. Now also including a success rate of ~50% it'll take me 10 turns of one steal. [ponder]

With Stagnate just starting his GA, this is definitely too slow. :( There is now way I can keep up with them at this rate. I guess I have around 10 rounds until they have Cavalry, I need to act fast, very fast hurt at least one of them.

[Markstar]

570BC: Last turn my diplomats were able to carefully steal Banking from Digger AND Astronomy from Stagnate. [party] Banking certainly will boost my finances a little while Astronomy was unexpected (I was certain I had to tell at least one of them that I spied).

This turn my troops (6 AWs and 2 Musketmen) landed on Stagnates territory - stupid me: after (!) I traded maps with Englands and China. I landed as soon as I had some troops ready and as near as possible, but now I'm thinking I should have maybe landed at the red circle...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20047112199_landing.jpg
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For some reason England is furious with me, even gifting them some techs wouldn't help. Grr, played the turn in a hurry and forgot to establish embassies with England & China. [aargh] Oh well, next round then.

I got more troops coming in pretty much every turn from now on, so it's getting really interesting. [:p]

[Markstar]

The war with Stagnate has started. Apparently he was not prepared as he only had one unit in Chta and none [eek] in Leptis Magna, where I captured the Sistine Chapel (there are two Numidian Mercenaries next to it, but since I stationed Musketmen they are no real threat yet).
No time to post pictures, but I think you get the impression.

[anarres]

Wow, sounds like he's toast!

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

Wow, sounds like he's toast!
Hehe, I certainly hope so. But after I sent the turn I realized that I had failed to make use of the short time between meeting him and landing my troops for further investigation. I had the money but did not take a look at more of his cities to see what he's got. But yes, it looks good right now, especially since he was in war with China (he made peace this turn, but I allied with England and China so he's at war with everybody except Digger) so that might indicate that he has most of his troops further south.

Otoh, he's in GA, so he ought to be able to crunch some units out pretty fast. Furthermore, he's got Gunpowder (and salpeter is within his borders, he must connect it any round now) so thing might get messy soon. But then - I got Cavalry in 2 turns and a little over 100 AWs in service. [evil]

I wish there would be a way to see what the others are researching like in Civ1/2. [ponder] This way I don't know what to research next; it's either Navigation or Economics. I need ocean-connected harbors (to upgrade the AWs that are already on their way to Stagnate & Digger), but also Economics to make use of the prebuild palace. It'll be done in ~6 turns, iirc, so not enough time to research Nav and then Economics.

Alright, 2am - back to studying. Actually, I was thinking about offering those two a deal that we'd hold off fight until we reached IA, but I need to wrap up my PBEMs (even though I'd love to have had a huge fight) since I got sooo much work to do the next couple of months. I'm going to be gone for 3 months (starting August) working in another town and I'm not even sure if I'll be able to check my mail there. Maybe I can use the company-pcs like so many of you guys seem to do. ;)

[Markstar]

Just a quick update:
Things are going well, I managed to capture most of Stagnate's cities and there are only 4 left. But he recently got Cavalry and my latest push towards Hadrumetum was unsuccessful, leaving my few surviving Cavalries and elite AWs out in the open. [cry]

Here a picture of the current situation:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/2004915164322_FairStarts.jpg
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Not all is hopeless, of course [rolleyes], and I am confident that I'll overpower Stagnate eventually. I actually expect to take at least 2 of Stagnate's towns next round (Sabratah and his last city further west). [:p] Digger is another story, though. With him having Cavalries it might be difficult to get enough units over. At least I was able to steal Physics from him, after I failed a few turns earlier and my spy got caught. Interestingly, he did not say anything about me spying on him, maybe he figures he can't do anything right now or, maybe a little less likely, he is glad he could help me out. [smokin] Either way, since we are still at peace, I decided to go after Democracy and then try to 'aquire' Magnetism from Digger, since Stagnate already has it for a while and I guess he already gave it to Digger or will do so very soon.

One strange thing happened, though. I tried to found a city on my home continent but couldn't, so I figured we have reached the maximum city limit. BUT, I can found other cities with other settlers, just not with this one there (don't know if it's because of the settler of because of something else, just that it is not because of max cities). [???] I'll try to post some pictures later, but this is definitely strange. [hmm]

[Markstar]

[aargh] Stagnate killed all my units that I had near Hadrumetum!!! [cry] To make things worse, they (Digger and Stagnate) are both in Industial Age!!! I managed to steal two techs from Digger (Magnetism & Theory Of Gravity), but I fear it's not enough, especially since Digger is scientific!!! One spy got caught, I hope he won't declare war on me so I can make another attempt in two turns when I finished developing Democracy. But it doesn't look too good atm...

Can he chose which tech he gets??? I'm pretty sure you can chose in C3C, but IIRC you can one randomly in PTW (it's a long, long time ago that I played scientific).

Anyways, seems like things will stay interesting. I'll get about 20 Cavs to Stagnate in ~2 turns, I hope that'll close the deal. [evil] But until then...

[Markstar]

270BC: A lot happened this turn. I captured Stagnates last city (he abandoned the other one) with a stack of Cavalries and elite AWs. No more leaders, though. Too bad, I could have used them to rush Magellan's Voyage to get my troops over more quickly.

Furthermore, I successfully stole Steam Power from Digger![party]
It's bad enough that it even had to come to me stealing techs from him, but since I finished researching Democracy (which I regret now), I decided to find out (and aquire) his tech first so I won't also research it. Plus, at 100%, I can make a SAFE attempt every two turns, which is what I did. I know it's not supposed to make a difference, but I thought I don't want to take any unneccessary chances. And it proved to be just in time, see what appeared near the borders of my newly-captured town...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/markstar/200410361934_FSC.jpg
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[eek] Of course I don't have enough troops down there yet, but will have soon. I hope that's all Digger has for now, otherwise I'll be in a lot of trouble. This is especially true since Digger had 3 turns to build up his railroad network and he will be able to get his units to the front much quicker than I will. This will certainly get interesting... [:p]

[anarres]

Do you need to pillage some roads to make sure he can't get to your core quickly?

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

Do you need to pillage some roads to make sure he can't get to your core quickly?

Nono, my CORE is not in danger at all. [cool] The only thing is that I just finished up Stagnate so my units on that continent are still up north. I made the following picture to clearify. It took me forever to make (on my laptop with 256MB RAM), I also have a better version, but it's 1.8MB so if anyone is interested, I can mail it. [:p] I guess I can't upload it here, not even as zip. But this should be enought for the first impression:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200410323234_MOVsm.jpg
434.96KB

Yellow arrows is my old route to get to the other continent (thanks to GL), green is the new route which will hopefully only take me around 5 turns as soon as Magellan's Voyage is finished. Blue is the way my main attack is going to be. The red arrow is the position of my Forbidden Palace and the rest is pretty obvious, I think.
I'm still settling the northern continents, also started RR this turn, of course. I hope my basic network will be done in 6 turns, then my continent will be save for sure.

[Pastorius]

Damn. That one huge pic. Good thing I have a fast connection.

So it is just u and Digger left now (except for AI scum)

cant you make ROP with orange and send some troops down that way too

From pic it looks like infrastructure in Digger's Northern land sucks, but that also implies that his reinforcements would take time to help out up there. And pressure from both sides could help to make him do some bad moves too...

Anyway, way to go with this game man. Well done

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by Paalikles

Damn. That one huge pic. Good thing I have a fast connection. Hehe, and if you download it it's even more detailed. Plus, as said, I have an even bigger version. [:p]

BTW, Digger pillaged some roads but surprisingly did not start a war!!! I was sure he would have, now I will attack since I already switched to researching myself (I thought about going 100% tax so I can steal every two turns) because you can't steal techs when at war...
Anyways, I brought my troops in position so the final war starts tonight (I got the save but can't play at work)... [evil]

[anarres]

[lol]

I guess I need to pay more attention. [rolleyes]

[Markstar]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

[lol]

I guess I need to pay more attention. [rolleyes]
No problem, I know it's a pretty intense game and there was a lot going on, first Kuningas, then Stagnate, now Digger. I hope the outcome will be the same in all three cases. [:p]

Anyways, Diggers pillaging will have the effect he intended (slowing me down a little) and I should have started the war last round already. I lost two Cavalries trying to remove his troops from my neighbourhood - not too bad but considering it was Cav vs Cav, it could have been better.
Nevertheless I intend to capture 3 of the last 7 remaining chinese cities and get my troops closer to Digger.

Also, my RR net is going pretty well, I think I might be done in 2 or 3 turns already (all 4 parts of my continent connected).:)

[Markstar]

150BC: The chinese are gone and I captured Digger's first city (the one south which divides the chinese and Digger's continent). Heavy losses but I think I can take it. Fresh troops will arrive soon and I still have enough reserves for now.
I also made an attempt to take London (with troops that I had shipped over), but even though I was pretty lucky there (only one Cav lost against another Cav and 5 wins (mostly vs MI)) there were too many troops and I'm afraid my units will be lost next turn. Anyways, I think at least I scared him enough to be focussing on two fronts instead of just one.
At least Digger still does not have Medicine (I wonder what he is up to) and I'm 2 turns away from Electricity which means 6 turns away from Scientific Method. It'll be just in time since my prebuild palace is finished in 7 turns, so I have to select Atomic theory and Electronics as free techs. I'm not too happy about it since I would have liked to get Replaceable Parts first. Anyways, things look good right now but things might still change... ;)

[Markstar]

Oh, by the way. This game ended shortly after the last post. I had around 8 armies and Digger was a little overwhelmed.

That was a fun game and I would really like to do that again some time. Also, I must say I liked the accelerated production since it sped things up. Yes, there are drawbacks (less focus on culture, defensive players have an even greater advantage) but imho it can be very well worth it.