kryszcztov v Skyfish - OPEN TOPIC

[Socrates]

NOT FOR SKYFISH until the game is over.

At last I can start my 2nd spoiler. Please no information from the other player's spoiler !!!



1v1 PBEM #1 - [u]kryszcztov v Skyfish :</u>
version : C3C 1.15b
world size : Standard
land mass : Pangea
water coverage : 70%
climate : Temperate
temperature : Normal
age : 4 Billion
barbarians : Roaming
player 1 - kryszcztov : Persia
player 2 - Skyfish : Iroquois
AI rivals : 6 unspecified
AI agression : Normal
available victories : all except Wonder
difficulty : Emperor
culturally linked start locations : Yes [blush2]
respawn AI players : Yes [blush2]
preserve random seed : Yes
allow cultural conversions : Yes

map made by : ERIKK

This game will be played along the RBCiv rules.

[Socrates]

STARTING POSITION

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004214211057_kryszcztov-Skyfish01 3950BC StartingPosition.JPG
51.65*KB

AIs have not been placed on mountains in 4000BC, thus have settled before us.
I wasn't sure if settling right away was always the thing to do in CDZ PBEM, so I first sent the worker on the north-east bonus grassland, and then I settled on the starting tile. There is a cow on grassland in range of Persepolis, some bonus grasslands, forests and hills, and a spices source. Quite a good start, so Persepolis will become a slow settler factory. With not so much gold to get early (good tiles aren't on the river), I set science on Iron Working at min. In 50 turns I'll be able to know where iron is, which means immortals.

[Socrates]

THE ISOLATED PERSIANS

Persepolis first built 3 warriors, and then started on a prebuild for the granary (barracks). The reason I didn't go for Pottery at max as usual is simple : out of 7 rivals, 5 are agricultural (+ the expansionnist Hittites, I just saw) !! [eek] I don't know if ERIKK chose them, but that surely will affect the game. So I was quite confident to get contact with one of them quickly, so as to build my granary. On turn 11 (3450BC) my borders expanded, popping up a hut which revealed a map of the region (where is my tech ?). I had thought a lot about building warriors or a granary first (yes !!), because going for a granary first meant no barbs from the hut, and possibly a friendly warrior ? But I realized I would almost never have a chance to contact an agricultural civ without scouting warriors, so this idea was abandonned...

... for good ! :) On turn 19 (3050BC) I still hadn't contacted anyone, despite going straight northwards. On that turn I spotted the Aztec borders (agricultural civ), but before making contact Persepolis had to switch to the Pyramids (oh irony :D ) because the barracks was about to be completed. Two turns later (2950BC) I met the Aztecs, and was able to give them Masonry for Pottery + 20 gold (broke). Persepolis switched to granary at last !

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004214213519_kryszcztov-Skyfish02 2950BC AztecsContact.JPG
99.96*KB

The granary was built on turn 24 (2800BC), and now the capital city was ordered to build settlers. On turn 26 (2710BC) a 2nd hut was popped up : 25 gold. On turn 29 (2590BC) a settler was built, sending Persepolis back to size 3. By now the worker had finished improving the land needed for this cycle : 1 warrior + 1 settler every 6 turns, at sizes 3 and 4. Not so bad. I almost got a headache trying to mentally dotmapping my area, the fault to many annoying mountains and a not-so-well-drawn coastline... ERIKK managed to get us a great map !! [goodjob] After much inner wallbashing, I decided to abandon the usual "almost no overlapping" pattern (not a fixed pattern, but I like my cities to cover all the close tiles with minimum overlap). I decided to place my cities so as they would get 12 tiles to work each (more or so) without forgetting any tile. Which means I won't make a top priority of hospitals.

Meanwhile, on turn 31 I met the Sumerians. At that point Aztecs seemed to be the tech leader. Turn 32 saw the foundation of Pasargadae, only 3 straight tiles from the capital. It's quite unusual for me, and I hope to learn from this. I also think it suits my situation better : obviously I won't be the tech leader before long, and so won't build many improvements in the early game. If I want a chance to win this game, I have to make good use of my UU, be it against the AIs (most probably) or against Skyfish. With this city pattern I think I optimize future war production, and my industriousness will help to improve the cities quite fast.

Another hut was popped up on turn 38 (2230BC), due to the foundation of Arbela, giving me a map of the region again, just right next to my land (where is my tech ?). On turn 41 (2110BC) the Mayans were found (just a wandering unit), and silks were connected. Antioch was founded on turn 43 (2030BC), Gordium on turn 49 (1790BC). I was able to connect my 2nd lux, furs, on turn 47 (1870BC), which allowed me to set the lux slider to 0% once for all. Next turn I destroyed a barb camp on a wild peninsula in the north-west (sad to see there was no AI there).

On turn 51 (1725BC) I eventually got Iron Working through my gambit, but unfortunately it had already been an Aztec knowledge since turn 44 (1990BC), so I couldn't get a huge advantage of it. Iron was lying just at Persepolis's doors ! Well, ERIKK, do you want me to go to war NOW ?? [goodjob] I was still able to make use of this tech now : I gave it + 177 gold to the Sumerians for the Wheel + Warrior Code + Ceremonial Burial. Crazily, Mayans wouldn't even give me Ceremonial Burial for it ("insulting deal") ! [eek] It must mean that they had other contacts who had Iron Working but not Ceremonial Burial, otherwise I don't understand... Then I decided to buy Mysticism from the Mayans for Iron Working + 121 gold, because I was afraid to lose such an opportunity, lacking so many contacts. And this allowed me to start yet another gambit, on Polytheism. I won't do any fast research before long, given the situation and my plan, so I'd rather take this opportunity to get a tech almost for free, and buy other ones once I have made more contacts.

You can see that Skyfish is just ahead of me in score, and this difference has not changed a lot for many turns. Knowing he is agricultural too, it surely makes sense, so I'm not disappointed with my choices so far. My advantage lies in my workers : those will be the motor for my conquests, so I need many of them to improve my uncorrupted tiles quickly.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004214221833_kryszcztov-Skyfish03 1725BC IronWorking.JPG
197.11*KB

Crazily this game is all in French, unlike with Killer where key words are in English. [???] For those who don't understand French at all, here is some translation that will help you to understand the pic :

colons : settler
travailleurs : worker
guerriers : warrior
caserne : barracks

[ERIKK]

He he, glad you like the map although you didn't see that much yet. ;)

[Socrates]

THE SLOWLY RISE OF AN OBSCURE INDO-EUROPEAN TRIBE

So a 2nd gambit (Polytheism) was started, and we'll see if it still pays off in C3C. On turn 52 (1700BC) I met the Hittites, and I waited the next turn to do some trade : I gave 46 gold + 7 gpt to the Hittites for Horseback Riding ; then I gave Horseback Riding to the Mayans for Alphabet + 4 gold (broke) ; lastly, I gave Horseback Riding + 3 gold + 5 gpt to the Sumerians for 2 workers. This cost me a lot, but I found it quite useful to spare some workers building, all the more with so few food bonus around. On the IT (1675BC) the Colossus was completed by the Incans.

The settler + warrior factory continued in Persepolis, at a rate of 6 turns for 1 cycle. Thus cities were founded continuously : Bactra on turn 55 (1625BC), Sidon on turn 61 (1475BC), Tyre on turn 69 (1275BC), Sardis (popping up a hut : 50 gold) on turn 74 (1150BC), Samaria on turn 82 (950BC), Hamadan on turn 87 (825BC), Ergili on turn 94 (670BC). Meanwhile the Sumerians had beaten me to the east island (iron there), which annoyed me (Hamadan was to be built there). My 6 first-ring cities all built barracks pretty soon, cranking out spearmen then.

On turn 59 (1525BC) Gordium sent a curragh out on the coast, and this tiny boat would eventually get contact with the civs I didn't know. And so on turn 68 (1300BC) I met Skyfish of the Iroquois in the north. After a little talk we agreed on peace, and he sold me Writing for 125 gold + 1 gpt on turn 70 (1250BC), quite cheaper than for an AI. That would be the last trade we would probably make in the game, due to his strategy. He delayed getting Horseback Riding for quite a long time, though I had it ready for him. He however soon established an embassy with me. After some barb action, I established an embassy with the Mayans, and signed a RoP for 1 gpt on turn 72 (1200BC), so that my curragh could freely sail across their coastal waters to reach further tribes.

On turn 74 (1150BC) I was able to go for another round of trading : I gave 75 gold + 10 gpt to the Hittites for Mathematics ; then I gave Mathematics + 7 gpt to the Sumerians for Map Making + 3 gold ; lastly, I gave Mathematics + 4 gold + 1 gpt to Mayans for Philosophy. Horses were connected, but that wouldn't influence my game much. On turn 80 (1000BC) Antioch completed a galley, to grab that island (I would fail, as you know). Here is an aerial photography (computer-made) that was assembled by French archeologists to show what the Persian Empire looked like in those days.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20043412434_kryszcztov-Skyfish04 1000BC EndQSC.JPG
188.04*KB

You might see the worker just west of Persepolis roading a hill ; next turn (975BC), thanks to him, iron was available for the whole Empire. Building cities a little densely and having industrial workers allowed me to have a pretty nice road network, low corruption, and iron ready for every city that would ask for it.

So immortals started to be built, and in the same time the warriors I had been building between each settler were upgraded one by one, as soon as enough money was available (60 gold each). And I had many idle warriors, so I took the risk to use a lot of cash for upgrading purpose, even though I was starting to be technologically backwards. On the turn 91 IT (730BC) Skyfish suddenly had a greater army than mine (military advisor), the 1st time in the game. At that time I was building and upgrading a lot of units, and this is also the very turn on which he got Horseback Riding : no doubt there, he was now mass-upgrading chariots, and his efforts to tell me that upgrading in C3C is expensive were vain. So all in all, we may have done quite the same in our starts, both of us building and upgrading our UUs.

On turn 94 (670BC) the Hittites entered the Medieval Age. I was starting to be scared by my backwards position, all the more with no money. But on turn 95 (650BC) I met the Incans and the Babylonians, thanks to the curragh and a scouting warrior. That would allow cheaper prices and more trading opportunities.

During all that time, wonders were completed by the AIs. After the Colossus, came : the Pyramids (Mayans on turn 69 - 1275BC), the Oracle (Sumerians, same turn), the Mausoleum of Mausollos (Mayans on turn 82 - 950BC), the Temple of Artemis (Incans on turn 87 - 825BC), the Great Library (Babylonians on turn 88 - 800BC), the Hanging Gardens (Aztecs, same turn), the Great Wall (Hittites, same turn : greatest cascade ever in Skyfish's PBEM life, according to him).

On turn 96 (630BC), 1 turn after declaring war on the Sumerians, I attacked their town on the island and razed it, thus triggering my Golden Age. Now I have to admit that I'm still surprised when I get this message :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20043413645_kryszcztov-Skyfish05 630BC GoldenAge.JPG
75.65*KB

I realized I would have my Golden Age under Despotism, but oh well, did the Persians even hear of the idea of Republic in their times ? :D River tiles and bonus grasslands were limited by despotism penalty, and so I was about to suffer a little of being to greedy in seizing that island. But well, iron is sacred in our Persian mountains. [goodjob] What I didn't know was that I should have waited a little before throwing the Sumerians back to their lands...

[Socrates]

THE GOLDEN AGE - FROM WAR TO EXPANSION TO WAR

I started my Golden Age while in Despotism, and thought it would last that way for the whole 20 turns. But I'm not sure if I could have foreseen what happened on turn 101 (530BC) : this turn, my 2nd gambit on Polytheism was done, and I could now do a very nice trading session. I gave 25 gpt to the Babylonians for Currency + 7 gold ; then I gave Currency + 9 gold + 3 gpt to the Incans for Construction ; I also gave Currency to the Mayans for Literature + Code of Laws + 18 gold (broke), thus entering the Medieval Age ; I got Engineering as my free tech (same as Babylon, unfortunately) ; then I gave Engineering + 11 gold + 3 gpt to the Incans for Republic (also known by Hittites and Babylonians) ; finally I gave Engineering to the Hittites for Monarchy + 92 gold (broke) + 1 gpt.

Formerly in a backward position, I was suddenly at tech parity with the most advanced civs. [goodjob] I immediately ignitiated a Revolution, thinking that 5 wasted turns in Anarchy could be quite compensated by 10 turns in Republic while still in my Golden Age. Now to my comment of the previous post : had I known I would easily get Republic soon, I would have refrained from expelling the Sumerians from that island for sure. I should have started the Golden Age on turn 106, possibly through the same action, and I would be in a better position 20 turns later. What I really didn't know is that another future event would make that reality even more meaningful...

On turn 102 (510BC) the Sumerians also entered the Medieval Age and got Feudalism as their free tech (they also completed the Lighthouse on turn 101 - 530BC). If only I had got Monotheism... On turn 104 (470BC) I declared war on the Aztecs ; my immortals were heading for frontier Aztec towns in the jungle, one stack in the west, the other one in the east. On the whole that war was successful enough to throw back the Aztecs to their core. I razed all cities, because I now had a plan for that area : this would be my future core, when a new palace would be rushed. The area is very promising after clearing the jungle, a lot more than my starting position. By that time I had started to build the Forbidden Palace in Arbela ; my actual core is too small to show its full value in the long term, so it will become my 2nd core. And so I started razing : Malinalco and Tlacopan on turn 105 (450BC), Tlatelolco on turn 109 (370BC), Xochicalco on turn 110 (350BC). I now had a cleared area that would be soon flooded with settlers, quickly produced thanks to the Golden Age !

On turn 106 (430BC) the Republic of Persia was proclamed. Here is a screenshot to show my empire at that time. You can see the immortals marching towards Aztec land. Note my treasury : 0 gold, just after the last turn in Anarchy (deal payement required careful management). On this turn I was first in both shields and gold (at last, but not for long in shields).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200436133422_kryszcztov-Skyfish06 430BC RepublicProclamed.JPG
219.54*KB

Just after that Skyfish entered the Medieval Age, but he was still in Monarchy. My curragh was now reaching Skyfish's land, but because we both refused to let each other's boats in our respective waters, I put the curragh on an ocean tile and it sank. :D On turn 111 (330BC) I signed peace with the Sumerians, because they were starting to send horsemen to my soon-to-be-settled area, and I couldn't afford to lose too many immortals. They were now here to protect the area. Of course there is something surely worse than horsemen, but more on that in a second.

During all those 20 turns I was settling more and more : first of all, Dariush Kabir on the east island (turn 99 - 570BC). [cool] Then, many cities in the north : Ghulaman (turn 111 - 330BC), Zohac (turn 112 - 310BC), Istakhr (turn 113 - 290BC), Jinjan (turn 114 - 270BC), Borazjan (turn 115 - 250BC). This was an extremely satisfying settling rate. :)

But a sudden event stopped this process (not quite finished) : on turn 115 (250BC) I was very surprised to wake up at war with Skyfish, 1 immortal already killed. A stack of doom of 20 mounted warriors showed up near my immortals !!! [eek] And rumours, spread by Iroquois themselves, were that a total of around 50 of those freaking units were already on their way to my empire ! [cry] Here is a screenshot of that : 1 mountie on the left, 19 on the right.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200436135143_kryszcztov-Skyfish07 250BC SkyfishSneakAttacks.JPG
202.35*KB

This surprised me a lot, since on turn 113 (290BC) Skyfish was at war with the Babylonians, with Incans as allies. I was thinking that he would head for the Great Library, and get a 2nd core, but now it was obvious : Skyfish was pursueing a blitz victory, which isn't surprising if you know the man, but I barely knew him. So he had done no research, had settled, built barracks and then chariots during all that time, and then done a massive upgrade (noted in a post above ;) ). So now the plan was to get as little destruction as possible, to get out of this war better than him.

I immediately signed peace with the Aztecs, getting 7 gold (didn't want any city in the north-west). I also established an embassy with the Babylonians, that would reveal useful soon. On turn 116 (230BC) the Golden Age ended, leaving me with little hope as for defending well against this pile of Native barbarians. The Forbidden Palace still had some turns before completion (it got a delay due to the Anarchy transition, otherwise it would have been completed around the end of the Golden Age), and I was praying that I could hold that city.

[anarres]

So what do you think your chances are agianst the Mounted Warriors? How many units do you have around that can defend?

[Socrates]

My chances against mounted warriors are rather low. I've heard (and seen, in recent games !) that in the hands of a human player, they're amongst the best units. If it's true that Skyfish has more troops coming up, I'm not far from doomed. :( We're currently just a few turns after that, and from a desperate situation, I'm starting to believe that I will survive to the 1st wave. [coool] More on that later, and I promise I'll update more often now, and zoom a little more on battles.

My army consists of what you see on the screen only. [eek] But some light-equipped guys are now taking part in the battle, giving me more strength ! Gotta love cheap reinforcement !! :D But who are they ?? [nya]

[Socrates]

THE FALL OF THE PERSIAN EMPIRE

Slowly being convinced that Skyfish may be trying to kill me on his first attempt, I had no choice but trying to defend as much as I could. So on turn 117 (210BC) I signed a MA with the Babylonians against the Incans and the Iroquois (the Babylonians were at war with both), getting Feudalism for 7 gold + 4 gpt, which meant pikemen : could be nice ! ;) On turn 118 (190BC) the SoD reached a mountain in my territory without fighting. Skyfish brought the Hittites, the Sumerians, the Aztecs and the Mayans against me. On turn 119 (170BC) a 2nd SoD consisting of 12 mounted wrriors appeared in the north-west. I understood it would be really hard now to stop the attack. I also razed Kisurra, a town the Sumerians had just founded.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200432202331_kryszcztov-Skyfish08 170BC SkyfishsSecondAttack.JPG
89.12*KB

You can already see that the situation was almost hopeless, and that I could now forget about my dream of "core-shifting" (the plan to build my new palace by the river you can see in the picture). On the IT Skyfish captured Borazjan. On the next IT (150BC) he razed Istakhr, and I lost 2 settlers.

On turn 122 (110BC) I was able to sign peace with the Aztecs, from which I got 33 gold (broke) + 1 gpt. I thought it would ease me a little, so as to concentrate on the mounties, but on the IT they declared war again, with Skyfish as allies. [aargh] And they managed to capture Zohac too. In the meantime Skyfish captured Babylon and its Great Library. By that time, the 1st stack of mounties had been torn to pieces, thanks to the immortals coming back from the jungle, and also to those mysterious fighters known as spearmen !! :D I used some to attack the mounties from the cities, which would simply give me better odds than the other way round. The other stack was having a rest in the open land ; the fact that the mounties could retreat just KILLED me...

On turn 123 (90BC), at last, I completed the Forbidden Palace in Arbela. It didn't have the effect I had expected of course, because the settling phase had been stopped.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004321234313_kryszcztov-Skyfish09 90BC ForbiddenPalace.JPG
60.9*KB

And here is what my army was by then (not what I would call a "Persian army") :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004321234515_kryszcztov-Skyfish10 90BC Army.JPG
51.27*KB

On the IT the Aztecs captured Hamadan. The Sumerians erected the Statue of Zeus, which would have no consequence on the game. I had to "check" with some immortals that no AI would land in the south, but it appeared their pathfinding didn't bring them that way, so I eventually brought ALL my units in the north. On turn 124 (70BC) I captured back Hamadan. A 3rd (!!) SoD appeared in the north-east, which meant 10 more units to deal with.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200432202443_kryszcztov-Skyfish11 70BC SkyfishsThirdAttack.JPG
77.74*KB

On the IT Skyfish captured Jinjan, Hamadan, and razed Tyre. At that point I considered the game as "lost" ; but I wanted to see my empire fall completely, so I kept on playing. I didn't rush any unit, because it's extremely expensive and I wouldn't have much gold after that anyway. Skyfish captured Sardis on the 50BC IT. On turn 126 (30BC) I saw that the Babylonians were left with 2 cities, and so I gave them 4 gold + 43 gpt for Invention, hoping that they would disappear soon, so that I could get back my gold. Well, they never lost another city after that...

I was unable to kill many mounties, because they kept on retreating and retreating again, only to come back later. And my tight build allowed them to jump from city to city in 1 turn, while my immortals couldn't reach my lost cities before another turn... Any time I got close to taking back a city, Skyfish either managed to destroy my units or abandon the city. Now here is a list of the last events of the Persian Empire, as there is not much left to say (IT (turn x) means the IT after turn x) :

IT (30BC) : Skyfish captures Arbela (Forbidden Palace), and abandons Sardis.
IT (10BC) : Skyfish captures Samaria, and abandons Jinjan.
IT (10AD) : Skyfish razes Persepolis.
IT (30AD) : Skyfish captures Pasargadae and Bactra. Aztecs capture Ghulaman.
130- 50AD : Antioch, Gordium, Sidon, Ergili riot, due to lack of luxuries. No more military units on the continent.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20043220123_kryszcztov-Skyfish12 50AD GeneralRiot.JPG
239.54*KB

IT (50AD) : Skyfish captures Antioch.
131- 70AD : End of riots.
IT (70AD) : Skyfish captures Gordium and Sidon. Incans build Sun Tzu's Art of War.
IT (90AD) : Skyfish captures Ergili.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20043220622_kryszcztov-Skyfish13 110AD LastCity.JPG
40.04*KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200432201046_kryszcztov-Skyfish14 110AD PowerGraph.JPG
53.48*KB

IT (110AD) : Skyfish captures Dariush Kabir. Game over. :(

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20043220120_kryszcztov-Skyfish15 110AD GameOver.JPG
50.01*KB

Congrats to Skyfish, who chose a decisive strategy ! [goodjob] I really couldn't have thought of such an extreme way of doing myself. Skyfish really deserves this excellent victory !

[Socrates]

Any comment on how I should have played this one is really welcome. Should I have built pikes instead of immortals after seeing Skyfish coming ? The problem with pikes is that they would eventually be crushed, even in large cities (Tyre, size 7, had 2 pikes who were killed like if there was no defense bonus), and they wouldn't be better to attack wounded MW than spears. Unless if I had put all my money on pikes rushing ? Should I have done this : mega-rushing ? Maybe I could have stood a chance after all ; believe it or not, I think I also played this war like in solo against the AI. [blush2] [blush2] [blush2]

And I want to make it clear : I didn't suffer war weariness in the entire game, this is just unbelievable !! [confused] Is there really war weariness between 2 human players or not ???

[Skyfish]

According to me WW between humans takes a much longer time to build up than in SP, much, much, longer.
We were at war for only less than 20 turns in the end...

Reading the spoiler I believe the biggest mistake was triggering the GA too early (producing settlers in GA is not good because you get extra shields but not extra food in GA and food is what is limiting you in producing settlers)

But most importantly in the end you defintiely should have thrown *everything* possible in order to defend your core (upgrades, rushing, everything...). Pikes made me lose a lot of units...
Its no use trying to "save for the future" if you are not even sure you will have a future soon...:)

[Socrates]

Yup, I should have rushed a lot... even though I wouldn't have had many more units to fight with. I think I screw my building phase : the Golden Age wasn't well timed, I lacked techs that were useful for courthouses, libraries... Maybe I should have waited a little before attacking the Aztecs and producing more settlers. Maybe... But then what should I have done ??? Building improvements ? Or producing immortals like mad ? The latter one would have been really costly in Republic. [blush2]

[Socrates]

For the Martian who will be interested in it during the 23rd century, my notes for the game :

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif kryszcztov-Skyfish.txt (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004527172052_kryszcztov-Skyfish.txt)
9.22KB