View Full Version : Monster Map C3C version
I just got a new PC with AMD Athlon 64 3200+ and 1GB RAM :D This allows me to start a SG on a 362x362 map. Just like K8 - Monster Map at CFC. The idea is to play with 32 civs on emperor/demigod with no tweaks etc... whatsoever (standard rules C3C). In the spirit of "this may crash on us or we may only end up with two cities, but what the heck"!!
I was thinking about doing a SG at CFC, but I'd like game with CDZ members, so that's why I try it here first.
Who wants to join?
EDIT Game Specs: (11/02/04 7PM)
-Archipelago 362x362
-70% landmass
-standard climate etc...
-Roaming barbs
-Deity
-We are the Dutch
-30 AI civs
Lt. Killer M
09-02-2004, 14:51
I am in, and maybe you could post in the CFC K9 thread.
Killer, I'm thinking about a CDZ-community SG, not a CFC SG at CDZ...
Lt. Killer M
09-02-2004, 15:02
aggie, Ok, fine
anarres will be in I bet - he was also waiting for K9
Sounds like a great opportunity to out my P4, 2.6 Ghz to the test :D but I might need to buy another 512 MB of ram though. but I'll cross that bridge when I get there
Good!
So we have:
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-vacancy
-vacancy
-vacancy
I am thinking about an archipelago map with us as a seafaring civ. I am a big fan of the Byzantines, but the Dutch also sound like a good choice to me. How do others think about this? And what level should we try?
Lt. Killer M
09-02-2004, 19:34
most def dutch - we'll need an archipelago to slow the game a bit, and we'll then need a seafaring civ
also, we will definately need an agri civ, toehrwise we'll end up with too few cities.
Deity [eek] Why not [lol]
Lt. Killer M
09-02-2004, 20:31
I'm game for deity IF we take the dutch
So we're going for archipelago, Deity, Dutch. Others that want to join?
Count me in, some deity guidance appreciated ;). It might run the Athlon to a breakdown but what the heck!
Welcome Beam :D
Roster:
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-anarres
-Beam
-vacancy
I'll try to start up the game at Thursday. I'm leaning towards a lenient roster (as opposed to LKendter ;).
As player planning goes, I can only play this one in the evening because I can't play super huge maps on the olde laptop. Can't afford to have the poor old baby numbercrunching for 30mins a turn when I should be working :)
Hi Stapel. Welcome!
At this moment I'm thinking about 10 turns per player and 5 turns per player as from somewhere around the end of the middle ages. We'll see how things progress there. I like to be lenient regarding the schedule but I would not like to see effectively only three players doing their turns because the others are not available. So I guess that we have to find a third way there:).
Roster:
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-anarres
-Beam
-Stapel
Our start:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004210185726_MM start.JPG
35.7*KB
Things we should keep in mind:
- There is a 512 city limit. This means 512/31 = 16.5 cities per civ
- We start with a settler less than the AI (30 of them)
- I assume that we have to go for OCN (Optimal City Placement)
- With two cows and the race against time regarding settling: can we afford to build a granary?
- Can we afford to start with two curraghs (which I usually do as a seafaring civ).
EDIT: It looks like a super start. I can tell you that I did some test map generations and I saw A LOT more bonus resources/etc than in normal maps. The desert and jungles are gigantic on these maps too. I think Killer can confirm :)
Hmm. Tough choices.
Without knowing anything else (and without having played a huge map) my instinct is that we should build a granary, simply because the overhead pays off after the first 2 or 3 setters.
Tough choises indeed. Looking at what we know: we start on the west side of an archipelago map at the SE side of the minimap. In Mapgeneration I've hardly ever seen a big landmass extending to both sides of the mapdivision line. To be sure however we need a curragh, also there seems to land nearby. Contact also offers good trading benefits.
Otoh, on a huge map there might be quite some land to be covered, even in this outpost, so that makes a call for a settler.
In brief imo we should go for combined exploration and expansion first.
From a 28.8 phone line at an A'dam hotel.
Lt. Killer M
10-02-2004, 21:12
I'd go granary ASAP.
I'd say that I should go for curragh, warrior, granary...
My preferred build order would be a couple of curraghs/warriors, then a settler (the food bonus here is huge and we will be a large size with a good production), then a granary, then settler factory.
The two cows with the 3 city food means you can mine both cows and still get +5 food at size 2. [eek]
BTW, we should be able to get a warrior and a settler from our capital every 4 turns by turn 30 or 40. :D
quote:From a 28.8 phone line at an A'dam hotel.
[eek]
What happened ? Got kicked out of your parents place ?
[lol]
quote:Originally posted by Skyfish
quote:From a 28.8 phone line at an A'dam hotel.
[eek]
What happened ? Got kicked out of your parents place ?
[lol]
LOL, parents place is on 14.4, consider this an upgrade ;) Are u coming over here to grab a beer?
Lt. Killer M
10-02-2004, 23:20
the wuss is in bed already
With such a start I would build no warriors at all in this city. A small risk!
curragh, granary, settler, settler, curragh, settler. City 2 can build defense. With two mind cows, an extra curragh between the first 2 settlers seems fair too.
Not building a granary before the first settler seems rather weird to me.
With 30 civs, the chance you get one on your island is big, leaving your capital without military for so long is just pure suicide.
Thats why u first make a settler before the first granny so u can quickly have mil units.
Plus the MPs are always useful...Your strategy looks crazy to me Stapel :D
We have 3 cows, two fishes and one tobacco in expanded city borders [eek]. Not to mention our river.
You sure you're not playing on the real world map? Land with lotsa cows and lotsa fish, that sound like a familiar place [rolleyes]
Lt. Killer M
11-02-2004, 13:56
skyfish, my test game NEVER saw an attack. Not once!
I still agree with Sky. We have roaming barbs AND military police is also important.
@Plux: only when the random map generator created Marla's world map [tongue]
I suggest we call it Rotterdam anyway. The looks of it are too similar to ignore, grasslands and cows, a river to the south, and that coast we see to the west must be great britain.
Sky & Aggie,
We have a great food & production bonus. We will grow in 5 turns. One cow will be mined after 6 turns. After turn 20 (or so) we will have a curragh and a granary. Therefor the risk is small.
I usually take this risk anyway, I never play below deity level, and hardly ever get kicked by the AI soon.
What is the problem?
And a warrior only takes 2 or 3 turns to build. In return you get more hapiness in the cities and a bit more safety.
Just to be in the debate, 2 or 3 turns is almost a city. I still think a warrior is worth it - never for the city itself in the first 20 turns or so, but to explore the surrounding land and pick our second city spot.
Well killer, I've seen several instances of IA taking an undefended capital in c3c. One of those instances was the first c3c game I ever played. [eek]
Or maybe look at my spoiler for the KoD-game which ended round about 2800BC :)
4000 BC (1): I settle Amsterdam on the spot and this is revealed:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004212164722_MM400BC Amsterdam.jpg
24.78*KB
Research on Writing in 50 (10% science. First unit is a curragh.
3950 BC (2): Start mining the first cow.
3900 - 3800 BC (3 - 5) [sleep]
3750 BC (6) Amsterdam is size 2. Luxury to 10%.
3700 BC (7) Amsterdam: curragh->curragh. The curragh goes west.
3650, 3600 BC (8, 9) [sleep]
3550 BC (10 ) Amsterdam is size 3. Luxury to 30%.
3500 BC (11) Amsterdam: curragh->warrior. Amsterdam expands the borders. Curragh goes east. Worker finished roading the mined cow and goes to next cow. Lux back to 20%.
3450 BC (12) [sleep]
3400 BC (13) Amsterdam: warrior->warrior. Warrior goes exploring.
3350 BC (14) Amsterdam is size 4. Luxury to 30%.
3300 BC (15) Amsterdam: warrior->settler. Warrior fortified in Amsterdam as MP.
We meet our neighbours.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004212165046_MM3300BCPersia.jpg
9.22KB
Persia. I trade Alphabet, Pottery and 48 gold for Bronze Working and Masonry.
3250 BC (16) [sleep]
3200 BC (17) Amsterdam is size 5. Luxury to 30%.
3150 BC (18) Amsterdam: settler->granary.
This is a good time to start a new debate. Where to found the 2nd city? Is OCN optimal?
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004212164911_MM3100BC 2nd city.jpg
57.16*KB
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 17:02
aggie, I'd found a town on the eastern coast southeast of the cow, and that makes 1 tile southeast of the cow on the river (between river and hill) look good
we should not be afraid to waste a tile of grass or two. lotsa room!
antoehr town southwest of the tabac to get all the fish in a nice tax-strong coastal city.
Moving the warrior on the hill reveals two other cows. Should we settle SE of the cow closest to the warrior?
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 17:10
I meant 1 tile straight up and 1 tile up right from where the warrior is in the pic.
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 17:11
aggie, come online on MSN!
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 17:25
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Lt. Killer M/2004212172445_dotmap.jpg
92.48KB
3150 BC (18) continued...Amsterdam: settler->granary. Warrior reveals 2 other cows near Killers SE-dot :). The settler goes there unguided. Lux to 10%.
3100 BC (19) The galley that went east sees ivory. Warrior from Amsterdam goes exploring as well. Lux to 20%.
IT: The most powerful nations are:
-Aztecs
-Sumerians
-Egyptians
-Greeks
-Maya
-Vikings
-Romans
-Mongols
2950 BC (20) Amsterdam grows to size 4. Lux to 30%.
2900 BC (21 I realise now this is seen as the real turn 20...) [sleep].
The settler is now at one of the red dots of Killers dotmap.
-Aggie
-Killer <---up (10 or 15 turns, whichever you prefer)
-ProPain (--- on deck (10 turns from here)
-anarres
-Beam
-Stapel
The save:
Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif MM 2900 BC.zip (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/200421218207_MM 2900 BC.zip)
295.98KB
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 19:07
preturn: my dotmapp seems righr on. as agie agreeed to it on MSN, saying it was what he thought of, too, I'll proceed with it.
(1) 2850 BC - Rotterdam founded on the 3cow spot. 5 to grow, 5 for a second worker - a good idea to play our trait I think. Thena defender, than we'll see.
(2) 2800 BC - exploring. I'll oscillate the eastern warrior between coast and river to expose as much land as possible.
(3) 2750 BC - lux up by another 10% as Ams is size 5 now.
Meet the Iroquoise. SHIT! Two strong ancient Civs as neighbours! They offer all Gold (35) for Masonry - I'll pass, they may get abarb cmap soon (2 Warriors underway) and then we can get a bit more cash
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 19:25
(4) 2710 BC - max growth in Adam, as it will finish granary anyways. find a Iro town on the coast.
(5) 2670 BC - Adam Granary --> warrior (1) Iro mainland seems to be on the coast. Good, enough room!
We have good, but production-poor land closeby, lots of grass, some cows, a nice long river. Lots and lots of workers needed ;)
(6) 2630 BC - The iros get near Persia - I cash in the 35 Gold for Masonry.
(7) 2590 BC - nothing much, Adam grows but no need for more lux.
(8) 2550 BC -
(9) 2510 BC - settler done, next one. He goes west, towards the tabac spot.
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 20:45
on second thought, I order another warrior in Adam.
(10) 2470 BC - NOW the settler is ordered. Iro warrior walks up. Good, he will show if abrbs threaten our lone settler. A hut near the ivory has barbs in it.
(11) 2430 BC - survived the barbs, now the i(ro)diot blocks our settler.
(12) 2390 BC - nothing
(13) 2350 BC - a new border in view. Adam can go W-S-W-S and so on, giving an escorted settler every 4 turns.
(14) 2310 BC - a new town is founded, Teh Hague.
(15) 2290 BC - Leizig finishes the Colossus :eek: Kill the last barb fromt eh htu after healing. The border in view is still in view - contact next turn. also, a brown border comes into view. heavy trading possible?????
lux up 10% for Rotterdam - 1 warrior should go there soon or be built.
Lt. Killer M
12-02-2004, 21:04
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Lt. Killer M/2004212205915_dotmap2.jpg
148.08KB
Upload didn't work for Killer, so here it is.
Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif /ProPain/MM 2270BC.SAV (http://www.danwilliamson.net/forum/uploaded/ProPain/MM 2270BC.SAV)
Dude this is real funny : it looks so much like Holland [lol]
No mountains (except the only lonely StPietersberg of course), only grasslands, tons of cows, fish, loads of wheat...
And some fucking nasty neighbours [evil]
[rotfl]
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain <--- up (10 turns from here)
-anarres <--- on deck
-Beam
-Stapel
Hmmm... How can people complain about our starting location [hmm]
[eek] Who's complaining ? [eek]
From this start I'd say its "game over" already...thats the only down side I see to it...
@Sky: Someone stated "we have good but production poor land :)". Please be aware that this map is full of bonus tiles! I am certain that the AI has it as well. "Game over" with 30 AI opponents sounds a bit to early to me.
start
Briefly check everything, nothing special
1- 2230BC
Meet English
Trade masonry and 113 gold for iron working with england
Trade IW for warrior code with iroquois
We have iron nearby
2-2190bc
Found Utrecht. Pop hut, warriors.
Buy the wheel from lizzy for 9gpt 112 gold. We have horses nearby
Sell the wheel to persia for CB and 133 gold
3- 2150BC
Attack barb warrior, win and promote
4- 2110BC
Yank up lux rate to 50% to prevent civ unrest in R'dam. We need MP there
5- 2070BC
nothing
6- 2030BC
Found Groningen, See iro's movce 5 warriors in our direction
7-1990bc
Move warrior to The Hague, pop hut get conscript warrior
8- 1950BC
Defeat a barb warrior
Persians have writing (we have 5 turns to go) and they wont sell it
9-1910BC
I get the feeling we live on an island. Pretty convinced the portuguese know someone we dont as they fly away in techs. But it could be huts too, they're exp after all. Still no deal for writing possible.
10- 1870 BC
MOve a curragh into a patch of extended coastal tiles.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2004213223913_mm1870.jpg
187.23KB
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-anarres <--- up
-Beam <------ on deck
-Stapel
anarres got the save alrdy. Seems we have extremely good tracts of land. :D
Amsterdam is on a 4 turn warrior/settler scheme. R'dam will be when we mined 3rd cow. Groningen cant do this because it lacks a river, but we can manage a 4 turn settler fac here in a 4-6 scheme. But I dont think that would be necessary, I'd rather have a few more workers build there.
From there on we can build military and start taking over the neighbours. Can't be a problem with our productivity.
It's great to have 3 settler/worker factories. With OCN the workers are even more important.
anarres, how is it going? (not in a hurry, just curious [mischief] )
* Bump * (...like to see a ' got it' and expected due date) [yeah]
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
anarres, how is it going? (not in a hurry, just curious [mischief] )
* Bump * (...like to see a ' got it' and expected due date) [yeah]
Come on anar, you can do it!
Whoops! Totally off my radar, I will play after the SidSG, or maybe before I finish it.
Kinda - I have still the Sid SG to finish (just 2 turns), but I am also going out tonight and it is unlikely I will get to play any Civ today. The earliest I can start this is Friday, so if Beam or Stapel can take this first I would be grateful...
OK, np anarres:
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-anarres <--- on deck (if available by then)
-Beam <------ up
-Stapel
Beam, Stapel, anarres: whoever can take it, please do. As long as you post a 'got it' first :)
I can play saturday. Most certainly not tonight, due to alcohol realted business.
Beam, I got it, unless you can grab it before saturday 15:00 hours. OK?
Stapel: toppiejoppie :D
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-Stapel <---up
-Beam <------ on deck
-anarres
heh. I can possibly get it tonight, since I finished the Sid SG pissed (drunk) at 2am last night...
anarres, Stapel: if you can work something out here: that'll be great. I just sit and watch what happens.
I can certainly play early this evening, or earlier when the stream of phonecalls finally dies out.
Beam, Stapel and anarres: I am very happy that all of you want to play. But to avoid confusion, could you please discuss the order? I think it's best that I am not distrupting this :). I've done it before (K8) and at the end no-one played for a week :(
EDIT: However, at this moment the order Beam, anarres, Stapel sounds most logical. (Shit I've done it again [wallbash] )
As I said before, I will not "get it" before tomorrow (saturday) 15:00 hours. I will most certainly check this thread, before playing!
Got it! :D
Err, almost, just where is the sav [???]
anarres, ProPain, Killer: one of you has the save?
EDIT: ProPain didn't post it, but Anarres should have it. I hope it's so, because PP is gone for Carnival [:o]
I had a panic when I couldn't find it, but eventually I dug it out.
I have emailed it to Beam, but if he hasn't posted that he is playing by tomorrow I will play then.
Sorry about all the confusion. :(
Just 2 Q's for the experts:
- Writing is in the pocket next turn, what is the best tech to go after that? Philo I assume?
- Trade writing with Portugal for Myst, Math and/or HBR?
Yes to Phil (although I haven't seen the game yet so it is possible there is a reason not to).
Trading depends totally on what we can get out of it - who we know and what they have. Also, it is worth considering keeping writing a little while anyway to increase our chances of getting Phil first.
Well, in the IT everyone got Writing apart from Lizzy. So, we got Myst from Lizzy and swapped Myst with Persia for HBR. Net investment of 46 gold, we are on par apart from Math by the Ports.
1870 BC: Quick check, everything seems to be fine.
IT: loooong time
1830 BC: Jerxes still refuses to sell Writing :(. I have to get used to the open build style.
IT: Vikings complete the Oracle, oops! Our daring Curragh sinks without having spotted land.
1790 BC: ‘t Kielegat founded :D Jerxes even won’t sell with one turn left.
IT: Writing > Philo
1750 BC: Fuck, Ports have writing. Writing to Lizzy for Myst + 11. Myst + 57 to Jerxes for HBR. On par apart from Math for Henry.
1725 BC: We are indeed on an island.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004221194557_island.jpg
115.07KB
1700 BC: zzz
1675 BC: zzz
IT: A stack of 5 Iroq warriors moves on yet neutral but future Dutch terrain, not sure what that could mean. [???] It is followed by another stack of 4!
1650 BC: Survey of our peninsula is completed.
IT: Both Iroq stacks keep heading east …..
1625: Arnhem, Maastricht founded. Settler factories are up and running. The rest is building workers at max, warriors if the foodpile needs to be filled.
1600 BC: zzz. Lizzy has Math, but does not want to trade for HBR.
IT, the Iroqy stacks carefully move around Dutch occupied tiles into the open. These guys are on a mission.
1575 BC: Haarlem founded. Portugese have Philo and Mapmaking! The map is not the type for AI suicide runs, so I assume that Henry indeed was first to Philo and decided for MM. Key objective imo is to get MM as well and find the other 27 (?) AI. This map is HUGE and we only know the area down under.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004221194739_monsterminimap.jpg
4.6KB
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004221194820_monstermap.jpg
277.66KB
Game to anarres.
A min science Philo gambit with 31 civs. When that works...I would have offered my mother to the RNG :) I'd say: let's go for the often neglected science Literature!
You guys should run for those southern luxuries ! [eek]
@all: I like the save to be linked here OR sent to all participants of this SG. We just had troubles with this sending to one person a couple of days ago, when Stapel wanted to play :(
No prob, the upload tool can't handle the 700k anyway however. Can it be ftp'ed?
I don't mind ftp, but you can also send it to my cdz e-mail account.
On it's way. This sav could become 5 Mb eventually!
Preturn (1575BC): For some reason lux is set to 50%!!! [eek]
I turn it down to 20% and still don't need entertainers. Philosophy seems the wrong tech to go for. It is one of the cheapest techs and Portugal has it anyway, so I seitch min research to Map Making and lose 7 turns.
3 (1500BC): The time has come to deal with England. I trade lizzie HBR and 171 gold for Maths. Sell Persia Maths for 91 gold.
I have been alternating the lux between 10 and 20%, and the tech slider between 0 and 10%, using a scientist when I can.
6 (1425BC): Found Holwerd. It has 2 tiles overlapping, but I get to use 2 wheats now this way.
7 (1400BC): Found Middelburg
AI: ??? complete Statue of Zeus.
9 (1350BC): Found Delft in the NW.
10 (1325BC): Build a horse colony. :D
Quick Summary:
* We need to switch to barracks and then horses soon.
* The fastest way to road somewhere is to have 3 workers roading a new tile every 2 turns, and if you have 6 workers you can move the road on at 1 tile/turn.
* Getting lux's connected is important, we have Silk and Ivory in the SE and should send out a set of 6 workers to build a road there. Only because of the serious lack of roads elsewhere (like to our common borders) have I neglected this task, but we should do this asap.
* Our curragh just sank after 4 successful turns in the ocean (off the west coast), and still no land in sight. :( We need ships to head east and to get Map Making for the extra movement.
* Rotterdam has just lost one of it's warriors to a barb and the other warrior is out the city atm.
Monster save 1325BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Monster1325BC.zip)
From 1325BC:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004222231626_monster.1325BC.jpg
113.67KB
-Aggie <---- on deck
-Killer
-ProPain
-Beam
-anarres
-Stapel <---up
Getting horses very soon sounds like a great plan. Because we will soon end the settling phase, when we hut the max of 512 cities. We have 12 now, not to shabby :D
I got it.
But, I have 2 other SGs first. I'll probably play wednessday evening. Aggie, if you want to play a few turns first, that is okay with me, but be sure I can play from wednessday 21:00 o'clock.
Stapel, that is ok. I am sick so I can play tomorrow. If I -for some very strange reason- haven't played it by Wednesday morning, you can just take it.
-Aggie <---- up
-Killer
-ProPain
-Beam
-anarres
-Stapel <--- on deck
That's a very subtle solution to the upload issue anar ;)
It's no solution, it's a temporary workaround... :(
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
I am sick so I can play
[hmm] [nono]
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
I am sick so I can play
[hmm] [nono]
Hmmm, misquoting and jumping to conclusions??
IHT: Rotterdam, Utrecht, Groningen switched to barracks.
IT: 't Kielegat: worker->worker.
Turn 1 (1300 BC) :sleep:
IT: The Hague->curragh->curragh.
Turn 2 (1275 BC) Amsterdam and Rotterdam grow. Science to 0%, Rotterdam gets a scientist, luxury to 20%.
IT: Amsterdam: settler->barracks. Maastricht->worker->barracks.
Turn 3 (1250 BC) :sleep:
IT: Delft: warrior->worker.
Turn 4 (1225 BC) :sleep:
IT: Portugal finishes the MoM.Rotterdam: barracks->horse. Kielegat, Holwerd: worker->worker.
Turn 5 (1200 BC) Rotterdam grows to 6. Science to 10%, clown in Rotterdam.
IT: Amsterdam: barracks->settler. The Hague: curragh->curragh. Middelbrug: worker->worker.
Turn 6, 7, 8 (1150 BC) Highlights were the founding of Breda. Not very specific due to loss of data (crash).
Turn 9 (1125 BC) Leiden founded. I give Portugal 580 gold for Code of Laws. England gives me Map Making for Code of Laws and 65 gold [party]. Min science to Literature.
Lux has to go to 30% because of Rotterdam. Rotterdam switched to temple.
IT: Utrecht: barracks->horse.
Turn 10 (1100 BC) The 6 workers are still roading to get the silks connected. I was thinking about placing a settler where the warrior is now (south of the settler. There are two curragh ready for suicide. From now on we can make galleys :)
PS. I forgot all your e-mails (new PC). Could you give them to me so that I can send the save?
quote:I forgot all your e-mails (new PC). Could you give them to me so that I can send the save?
Just locate your addressbook and mailfiles on your old PC and copy those to your new toy, pretty straight forward.
How many cities do we have right now btw?
We have 14 cities and one almost ready. I think we will hit the limit soon.
PS. We only lack Phlio compared to our enemies on the island. And those are storng civs. So we might do ok overall as well. I think that we can go for the TGL gambit. I've seen the AI avoid this like the plague. This may be different in a 31 civ game of course.
Ooooh, the GL would be very nice...
quote:Originally posted by Beam
Just locate your addressbook and mailfiles on your old PC and copy those to your new toy, pretty straight forward.
Yup, but my old pc is no more my pc...
Aggie, can we get a pic of the map please?
My email is now anarres@'cdz'.com (replace 'cdz' with full version).
I would recommend rushing a temple in Delft - I am not sure which of our neighbours have horses yet, but stealing the one next to Delft is defintely worth it, and the cow will make up for lost pop in rushing.
I would also recommend most (if not all) of our coastal cities building Harbours (via a rush at 10 shields if appropriate), and then galleys asap. We have to get more contacts!! It is worth sending many many galleys to their deaths if we can get to meet some more civs. The brokering opportunities are immense, and since the AI can't to suicide galleys it is *the* way to win on island maps. I would prioritise this as our #1 concern at the moment.
Our territory:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004224141321_MM1100BCmap.jpg
126KB
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
I am sick so I can play
[hmm] [nono]
Hmmm, misquoting and jumping to conclusions??
It wasmeant to be funny.... So far for me being funny, I guess
I got it. Will play wednesday.
Mail = stapel@cdz
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
I am sick so I can play
[hmm] [nono]
Hmmm, misquoting and jumping to conclusions??
It was meant to be funny.... So far for me being funny, I guess
I tried to be funny :(
Just reviewed the sav sent by Aggie, some thoughts:
- If we max. science Lit can be in the pocket in 17t, if we go for a TGL gambit getting Lit fast is worth considering. A prebuild Palace could start in R'dam, but would require 40t for TGL to complete with current shields, so that is the limiting factor imo. There are some hills to be mined, yet with 30 AI it is a capital Gambit. More could be gained from a Galley swarm with much less risk.
- Getting close to the average 16 city / civ limit means we need a lux city soon, a city with a temple S of the middle silk gives access to the Ivory as well.
- The peninsula terrain is awfully good for growth, but with relatively few potential salpeter tiles. Long term issue.
- Lots of seatiles E of Ghulaman :)
quote:Originally posted by Beam
Just reviewed the sav sent by Aggie, some thoughts:
- If we max. science Lit can be in the pocket in 17t, if we go for a TGL gambit getting Lit fast is worth considering. A prebuild Palace could start in R'dam, but would require 40t for TGL to complete with current shields, so that is the limiting factor imo. There are some hills to be mined, yet with 30 AI it is a capital Gambit. More could be gained from a Galley swarm with much less risk.
That's something I like as an idea :D
quote:Originally posted by Beam
- Getting close to the average 16 city / civ limit means we need a lux city soon, a city with a temple S of the middle silk gives access to the Ivory as well.
We could just as well get colonies and settle a little closer to the core. II was already building a road to the luxuries as anarres suggested.
quote:Originally posted by Beam
- The peninsula terrain is awfully good for growth, but with relatively few potential salpeter tiles. Long term issue.
I had the same thoughts. Not only regarding saltpeter, but also rubber, oil, etc...
quote:Originally posted by Beam
- Lots of seatiles E of Ghulaman :)
[hammer]
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 14:14
ahem, stapel and I exchanged places due to circumstances I would prefer not to elaborate on
here's my report:
preturn: check: Groningen needs happiness addressed! Hmmmm, I
hire a scientist, switch the town to warrior. Next turn he
will be done and do MP duty. As he will be vet he will be
worth upgrading. Why not otherwise? I want the town on galley-galley-galley ASAP ;)
science obviously to 0%.
the GL gamble is too huge to squander money on. Rotterdam needs a temple and mined hills anyways. Switched it. Adam switched to harbour (upgrade the curragh). Done next turn, then back to settler. Adam can go size 7 without need of entertainers.
Leiden to Temple, will partial-rush - we really should take control of more land tiles. Our cities mostly can not use more than 8 to 10 tiles! We have on first look 4 cows, 3 wheat, 1 iron, 1 whale, 2 fish in 21 radii that can't be used atm. And I did NOT look hard....Not a top priority, but something to remember.
Who founded Maastricht? It is in an idiotic position - must have been me.....
Sorry, it annoys me massively where it is. Change it to settler, rush and hire two taxmen. Town will be shifted to pos as shown in dotmap.
red cicles are lost tile if follwing dotmap - a lot less than before UNLESS we accept quite some overlap.
Yes, one city is NTO coastal, but grbas more res and BG than if it were.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/monsterdot.jpg
RETURN
(1) 1075 BC - nothing new about the AIs but lots and lots of wandering units. I suspect the Persian Galley holds a settler. It runs south, so closing the coast as indicated in the dotmap is a priority.
towns:
Amsterdam: Harbour --> settler (3)
Groningen: warrior (MP) --> Galley (4)
Maastricht: settler, abandoned.
Iroquois start the [b]Great Lighthouse, so do the English.
Rotterdam gets a scientist in addition to the clown.
(2) 1050 BC - Xerxes kicks our troops, moving our Curragh
along.
towns:
t'Kielegat: worker --> worker (4)
curragh starts run east near Arnhem. I change Utrecht to settler. Max settling until the limit is hit, then having settlers with spears (warriors is no time) IN PLACE to settle in good spots is PARAMOUNT. The AIs will often raze cities in war and NOT found right away - our chance to grab a few more of the 512! EACH turn we should try to found - usually the 'limit reached' popup will come, but you never know when it might not.
(3) 1025 BC -Iros are filthy rich.
upgrade the curragh. other one has survived and moves on.
Portugal has a large stack of 8 woprkers standing around
fortified. If all AIs waste upkeep on such 'shock troops'......
The Hague to settler. it has hardly any prod and will riot
after growth.
(4) 1000 BC - nothing from AIs
towns:
Amsterdam: settler --> Galley (3)
Rotterdam: Temple --> warrior (1) --> Palace
Holwerd: worker --> worker (10)
Den Helder founded.
Harlingen founded.
Mining around Rotterdam.
our curragh survives and sails on.
(5) 975 BC - nothing from AIs
towns:
Rotterdam: warrior --> Palace (28)
Groningen: Galley --> Galley (4)
t'kielegat: worker --> worker (4)
Middleburg: worker --> worker (10)
ocsaso ;)
worker in place to found a colony on silks next turn -
hooray!
(6) 950 BC - nothing from AIs
towns:
Utrecht: settler --> Horse (6)
Haarlem: barracks --> Spear (5)
colony on the lux founded.
science to 40% - lit in 23, same as Palace. Hope,
growth weill speed it the same as prod. Income still +10 per
turn, so we CAN go higher.
ocsaso ;)
(7) 925 BC - Persia starts the Great Wall Thebes
completes the Temple of Artemis [eek]
towns:
Amsterdam: Galley --> Horse (3)
a galley near Groningen is lost on the first try. [cry]
ocsaso ;), sea in sight! :) one more round, PLEASE!!!!!!
(8) 900 BC - Portughal has the Great Lighthouse. The Inca get
the Great Wall!!!!!
towns:
The Hague: settler --> Galley (10)
Groningen: Galley --> Galley (3)
T'Kielegat: Worker --> worker (5)
Beda: worker --> worker (10)
ocsaso ;) - noooo! sea only! I really fear we will NOT get
a contact through this curragh!
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Lt. Killer M/2004225142131_hope.jpg
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Rotterdam has grown again, Palace in 19, thus science goes up
another notch. -6 Gpt, but 15 turns to Lit.
(9) 875 BC -
towns:
Arnhem: worker --> Temple (30)
ocsaso ;) but, well, check the screenshot :(
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Lt. Killer M/2004225141627_despair.jpg
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another galley starts a suicide run., this one should go northeast.
(10) 850 BC -
towns:
Amsterdam: Horse
Holwerd: worker
our curragh has SUNK!!!! [cry]
What is wrong with Maastricht? I looked at the old map and I can't see anything wrong with the layout. [???]
One other point: You are not wasting money when you do a min-research gambit and fail. Every beaker saved towards the tech is discounted, so the worst that can happen is you 'break even' on your investment when you buy the tech.
The *only* way to lose out on a min gamble is if you start saving for something and then start research on something else before you have researched/bought the original tech. Even then, you only lose the small amount you have invested.
Anyway - I think we should discuss our tech choices more. We seem to be stabbing blindly in the dark with our choices, and we have to focus soon, since we can do our own research before long.
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 14:47
I was not talking about a MIN gamble.
I can't upload the new dotmap, the fucking upload will not take it. give me a few mins
It would be nice to have the save :D
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 14:51
there it is now.
I assume that this is the roster [:p]
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain <--- on deck
-Beam
-anarres
-Stapel <--- up
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 15:03
upload won't take the save either - too big
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/monster.zip
Looking at the link Killer placed, only now do I see what's so subtle about the solution of anarres :D.
Regarding science: I still would like us see the TGL ambit finish. Should it not work out, well then we may be able to finish another wonder. But Literature is often neglected by the AI!
After that, looking at the ships we see sinking, I think that we have to go for the science route and discover seafaring techs asap. Our seafaring trade may still pay off when we are the first to find other continents in the middle ages. That is, when we don't get TGL.
WITH the TGL we could fully go for the warmonger route.
What do others think?
EDIT: Next player, please whip the temple in Delft. Otherwise this city might at one time flip to Persia.
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 15:20
anarres, we have a realistic chance on Great Lib now I think.
OK, I misunderstood about the tech gamble you mentioned. I assumed you turned off a min Lit research.
Regarding Maastricht: I still can't see what was wrong with it. I have no strong ties to keeping it where it was, I just want to know what your reasons were for moving it.
If you are looking at overlap - the yellow dot to the east could still be founded and there be only 2 tiles overlap. I don't think limiting 2 cities to size 20 instead of 21 is going to harm us in this game, and certainly not harm us as much as moving a city with 2 cows at this early stage. When you move it there will be only 1 cow in the immediate radius and it will cost 60 shields to capture the other one back.
Please don't get annoyed at my questioning, I only want to understand the reasoning behind the move.
What the fuck is/was wrong with the position of Maastricht? [rant] [rant] [rant] It is next to 2 cows, adjacent to a river, hardly any overlap or unused tiles. I evaluated the location extensively, Holwerd was founded later btw so that is the troublemaker.
Pity that curragh is lost, Galleys should give a better chance and there are a couple of potential crossing points to go. Big landmasses prob. means big seabodies as well.
Not to critize you Killer, but I really like a discussion next time such a big decision is made. I do think it is a bit risky at this point, nearing the maximum number of cities.
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 16:47
Beam: Maastricht is in a bad place for founding cities AROUND it! see my dotmap.
I would have founded it, too, I think.
aggie: sorry. Will not happen again
Hm, I don't think it is bad, I must say I had one city in mind for fillin up between Maastricht and 't Kielegat. The mind never made it to the web however ;)
In abandoning Maastricht is not just 30s for the settler but also 100s for the now neccesary aquaduct. Anyway let's proceed now and sail to new worlds!
Can someone post a recent peninsula map please?
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 17:18
Beam, I was more thinking about the coast!
check m dotmap: no aqueduct for Masstricht, and none for the town to the south. Yes, the coastal town needs one, but it catches a lot of tabac and fish extra beakers.
I'll post maps in a sec
The dot near the curragh can go one tile S, just one land tile is missed by that. The other dots can be fitted in easily and nicely from there. Still "at work" so can't show it in a dotmap.
Killer, what is the rule of thumb by the way you use for city spacing? I might understand better how you come to the lay-out.
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 17:36
Beam, here, i want to take as much BG and bonus res whith NO overlap at all. Dist corr makes no difference at all when you shift a town 2 or 3 tiles on this map size. But with the limited number of cities I wouldn't ever let towns overlap if I cna avoid it in any way. Yes, an aqueduct IS a strong argument. But losing 3 tiles for one - no! You easily get that money from the city in the long run.
Lt. Killer M
25-02-2004, 18:06
grrr, upload no work at all for me atm.
I got it!
I loaded the game yesterday evening. My (old) PC started protesting and was mumbling about low virtual memory stuff. We'll see how things go. If stuff really gets nasty, I will pass it on rather soon. I will play tonight.
The Maastricht thing: It was located just fine! I never bother about overlap! What is wrong with overlap anyway? For 3/4 of the game, you can't make 12+ cities anyway! Surplus labourers can be used for science, if overlap really bothers.
Another thing I wonder: Our silks colony.... Why not a city? Evetually, we are going to build a city there anyway, so why did we waste a worker?
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
Another thing I wonder: Our silks colony.... Why not a city? Evetually, we are going to build a city there anyway, so why did we waste a worker?
We will have a long time with silks connected. This means that wecan lower tax rate and make more money. This easily compensates for the worker. With a bit of bad luck we never may have a city there (max nr of cities).
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
Another thing I wonder: Our silks colony.... Why not a city? Evetually, we are going to build a city there anyway, so why did we waste a worker?
We will have a long time with silks connected. This means that wecan lower tax rate and make more money. This easily compensates for the worker. With a bit of bad luck we never may have a city there (max nr of cities).
HUH?
If we would have sent a settler instead of a worker, he would have made it 99.9% sure.
I am not discussing using a worker for luxuary! I am discussing using a settler instead of a worker. In case the settler would shout out the message: maximum number of cities reached, we could have made a colony instead.
Lt. Killer M
26-02-2004, 09:44
Stapel: we did not HAVE a settler.....
a full page without any pics???
I cant accept this! More pics!!!!!!![aargh][aargh]
quote:Originally posted by Lt. Killer M
Stapel: we did not HAVE a settler.....
We should have built one, instead of a worker....... It's about planning, I guess...
I fully agree with anarres and Killer. The colony is a good idea. We have been building settlers like crazy and have had only good opportunities to settle and no place was a waste. Workers are 3 times as cheap and only cost 1 pop, as you know. So even newly formed cities can build them. Therefore it is easier to have a lot of workers walking around than settlers. Hence the decision from anarres to have colonies, which Killer and me followed. I can imagine that we won't be able to build a city close to the luxuries and the AI will also NOT be able to do so. This all due to the magic mark of 512 cities, which is the maximum of the game.
Better get used to colonies Stapel. We will get a lot more of them.
FWIW I still don't think losing 2 tiles to overlap was worth moving Maastricht for...
Hmmm, it is not that much of an issue (the colony). I don't have anything against colonies. Usually, I build them later in the game. I think workers are they key to succes in civ. I realy dislike the idea of loosing a worker. Maybe that's why.
I think I would have settled on the silk, instead off settling on Leiden. Another advantage would be the ability to trade...
Lt. Killer M
26-02-2004, 13:51
Stapel, noone keeps you from sending a settler there. But ir would have taken several turns AND the land is less good then elsewhere.... Don't worry, in the long run we will fill the island with our cities.
I still would have opted for a city instead of a colony, with a temple it gives access to three silks and the ivory, which gives two silks for trade. Now 4 workers are needed to achieve the same result. The temple is easily build by cutting forest. But he, we have secure access now to a silk so no real issue for me.
Lt. Killer M
26-02-2004, 15:19
Beam: get a settler there, found the town -all fine. But I wanted the dang silks NOW, not in 12 more turns and then maybe not and then we DO need a wroker there because we hit 512 and so on...
it was worth the worker if only we had the silks 5 turns earlier.
FWIW the colony was the right move in this instance...
:D
I agree with Skyfish as well :D
Whatever: I just like to add that a settler is not moving slower than a worker, thus we did not get silks sooner this way. If the settler that founded Leiden would have gone to the silks, all arguments mentioning '512' can be dropped.
BTW: howmany citiesa re there rigth now? any idea / estimation?
Lt. Killer M
26-02-2004, 16:16
stapel, get it: we were absolutely SHORT on settlers and still are! The Leiden settler got better land than ANY settler would at the silks.
Great: a whole page about settlers and workers, how much diskspace do we need once hell breaks loose [???].
EDIT: probably not a lot extra if it comes with the same number of pics ;)
The point of the colony is (as others have mentioned) that you can follow it up with a settler when you have time.
The settler that founded Leiden did so for exactly the reason Killer gave:
quote:Beam: get a settler there, found the town -all fine. But I wanted the dang silks NOW, not in 12 more turns and then maybe not and then we DO need a wroker there because we hit 512 and so on...
it was worth the worker if only we had the silks 5 turns earlier.
Please also note that without the 6 workers making a road there then the lux would not be connected!! The road had to be built...
@Beam, I welcome the discussion and I am very happy that this game is alive and kicking. I was having my doubts last week ;).
@all: Also -I don't think I need to mention it but still- please speak bluntly. That's the way to give each other more insight and room for discussion. The Maastricht and colony issues were good examples and especially the colony was something quite new. You wouldn't have this discussion on other maps :)
More pics, more pics [drools]
On moving Maastricht: not really necessary at this point imo. With the city cap nearing I'd rather had built an extra city first and replaced it later.
On the colony: good choice imo
iirc there's a unit cap too. So it would be wise for use to build a shitload of cheap units to 'reserve' places that we can use for better units later. I'm thinking mostly workers, they can be added to cities to make place for a mil unit and that way it wont be a waste of production.
The unit cap in C3C has been raised, we shouldn't hit that at all. :)
On the unit caps: good point PP. But not that in C3C the maximum amount of units is doubled.
Lt. Killer M
27-02-2004, 08:35
PP: you hit the nail on the head: I SHOULD have founded the new towns, gotten a settler in place once we hit 512 cities, THEN abandoned Maastricht and refounded in the better place.
Me idiot! :(
Stapel, to answer(?) your question: I haven't got a clue how many cities there are on the world atm. But we have 15 and if that is the average number of the AI, then we will reach the maximum quite soon.
My PC is low on virtual bullshit!
Game crash after 20 minutes of interturn. I am sorry, but I will skip. My new PC will be here next week.
Who wants the save?
Stapel, can't you upload it on CFC and then link it here?
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain <--- up
-Beam <------ on deck
-anarres
-Stapel <--- skipped
And a zoomed out pic please?? I can play tonight btw in case PP isn't available.
The save is to be found on page 3. Posted by Killer.
EDIT: you switching with PP is fine by me (if PP doesn't object) :)
Our empire:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004227174842_Monstermapmap850BC.jpg
137.86 KB
To the south is the colony we spoke a lot about. IMVHO that is poor land to settle compared to other places. The ruins are of former Maastricht.
EDIT: You also can see that Delft needs to be whipped.
Lt. Killer M
27-02-2004, 17:58
thanx, agiie, yes, Delft grew and must be whipped, I hope I didn#t miss it last turn....
I would colonize the Ivory, too, THEN place a settler in pos to found. If we get the town - fine. If not we can live with that, too.
a settler is in pos to refound Maastricht.
I've been waiting 15 minutes now for PP to object, long enough?
I propose to go for a city near the luxes at the spot where the worker stack is. Build worker > temple, worker cuts forest and speeds temple, the terrain turns from poor to pretty ok and we have access to all luxes!
Beam, I'm OK with that. We have iron and game close and other spots atm aren't much better.
EDIT: That worker stack isn't on a river. I'd found ON the colony and connect the ivory to our empire with a colony.
IT took just 12 min [eek]. Ottomans completed Hanging Gardens. I'll check the lux city spot.
I am in the 4th turn of this stint now. The palace in R'dam will complete in 11 turns. Changed to 3.4.3. Literature will be there in 9 turns instead of 6 and we are running a positive budget now!
710 BC: Tilburg is founded in the lux area and set to temple. It takes about a minute before the city is actually founded after hitting enter. A sign of the 512 limit being close?
Beam, I don't think it is a sign. Settling takes quite long on this map. Wait until we build harbors...
Lt. Killer M
27-02-2004, 21:14
Beam, settling will take longer and longer the more cities and civs there are, and the more cities are CONNECTED. I noticed in K8 that after nuking all cities of one AI it got a lot faster - all their towns were disconnected, thus a LOT less trade recalc was necessary.
If Tilburg is connected by road then it is no wonder it takes long.
Kay. Going to IT in a second. We have 19 cities and 35 workers. 2 settlers and 1 worker are under construction. Most other production is on Horsies now, with barracks / temples near the border and some various other stuff like a temple here, a galley there. About 20 minutes to next turn....... Please comment!
Lt. Killer M
27-02-2004, 21:38
OK, ONE siingle thing I can't overstress: SO HAVE SETTLERS IN POS TO FOUND!!!!!!!! (in case of a raze somewhere else) At least 4 or 5!
This changes everything: Aztecs complete Great Library. Shit! It will be another couple of minutes before I am in next turn. Please comment!
EDIT: R'dam is 6 turns from the Palace. Even with heavy trading there is no other wonder nearby afaic. Palace jump?
Is there another wonder to switch to? If not, well go looking for 2fers and 3fers again...
I must say that 19 cities is a nice number! We shall be at war vs an AI soon I guess...
Lt. Killer M
28-02-2004, 08:40
sh..........
If there is a wonder in say 10 or so possible, it might be an idea to let Rotterdam riot a few turns.
850 BC: Rename Beda to Breda. Hit next turn at 19:19.
IT: Jerxes asks us to move our troops, we comply. Ottoman complete Hanging Gardens. Back in next turn at 19:31.
825 BC: Polnische Landtag founded. Galleys are moving to potential crossing points.
800 BC: A persian Spear / settler combo is moving towards the luxes. A dutch warrior / settler combo as well. We really need a city at the luxes!
775 BC: Rotterdam goes 8 > 9. The workers Killer put on the W side of R’dam just completed their road and MM’ing to that tile keeps ‘m happy enough, so no lux raise required! [dance] Pluskut founded.
750 BC: Palace in 11, Lit in 6. Change settings to 3.4.3. Lit in 9 now.
730 BC: Most noticeable: suicide galleys still afloat.
710 BC: Tilburg founded in the middle of wealth.
690 BC: Build embassy in Lisbon since they own the Great L. Turned to Rep. already! MA can be made vs. Iroqs and Lizzy. Good news is they have not found another AI either.
670 BC: Three gallies lost at sea :(.
650 BC: Great Lib build by the Aztecs :( Reduce production in R’dam, hopefully there will be a purpose for all those shields but there is no other wonder to build now. All AI have Philo, Port and Iroq Curr. And Constr., Lizzy Curr, Jerxes Constr. Sounds like a good trading option but we will either need Lit or more cash and resources. It is unlikely that Perzia and England have contact.
630 BC: Lizzy wants Horses, all cash and 15 gpt for Curr. It is unlikely that we then can trade Curr. for Constr.
A settler is moving S to build a city on a hill (the one with the warrior). Cutting forests near Tilburg helps the temple there and gives access to luxes. We need AI contact more then ever now, but all active galleys sank recently.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/2004228104934_monster630BC.jpg
334.69*KB
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/Monster,_630_BC.zip
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain <--- up
-Beam
-anarres <--- on deck
-Stapel
I would have liked the temple whipped in Delft, but it will be built next turn, so that is not an issue anymore.
For some reason the whip did not work while Delft was at size 3, it just moved to 4 and was whipped. We are still on the warmonging path btw, but don't have TGL and no AI to deal with. So a more tech oriented road might be an alternative.
Umm, you can't whip more than 50% of a towns pop. To get from 20 to 60 shields in whipping when you are size 3 you need to whip once to 40 shields (go from 3 -> 2), then from 40 to 60 shields (2 -> 1).
Something new to add to your book of tactics Beam. :)
ProPain, are you able to play?
Been away for the weekend, was back yesterday but wanst able to play a game that required a lot of concentration. I' m able to play today so I'll take it this afternoon/evening.
PP, any predictions on when you can play?
now, somehow I didnt realise the save was here already. Playing as I write!
Initial thoughts
Look around, seems all ok. Slide up the tech slider 2 notches, that will give literature in 2 instead of 3 at -1gpt. can even get it in 1 at 90% but then I have to mm all cities to happiness so I take the 1 turn gamble. No one has lit so we shoudl be able to do some good deals if we get it at island mono
I'm still wondering why we have 't Kielegat AND Breda, makes no sense to name 2 cities the same so early in the game.
Our army seems weak but our GNP (11th) and MFG (10th) are ok.
Interturn
Even on my 2,4 Ghz, 512 MB machine it's taking ages....
turn 1
Notice 2 stacks of two workers building roads, seems a waste of worker turns at 3 WT/road, rearrange them to 1 & 3. Take a citizen of production in R'dam, now palace in 6 instead of 5, but still to quick imo. Turn science slider one down, still have lit in 1 but now at +13 gpt.
Press enter and go for coffee...zzzzz
turn 2
!Idea! manually set all citizens to food only tiles in r'dam. Palace in 26 turns with -1 food per turn. 20 turns to starvation
I see Port, Persia and Iroquois are a republic, maybe we can get rep out of the deal too.
Trade lit+silk to Iro's for construction and 63 gold
Trade lit and construction for furs, currency and 12 gold with England
Trade lit to Portugal for Philo and 31 gold
lux slider -2 notches, need 2 entertainers in A'dam for that but that will improve after the temple is finished
buy republic from Persia for Lit, currency, horses, 6 gpt and 294 gold
We draw a 6 turn anarchy.
interturn
zzzzzzzzzzz
turn3
Found Zwolle. Portugal hits MA.
Turn 4
We need to kill some ai just to shorten IT time [crazyeye][}:)]
Iroquois are in MA
Interturn
i manage my Hattrick team
turn 5 - 530 BC
Nothing much
Interturn
start 17:02, ends 17:08
Turn 6
nothing
Turn 7
Persians are in MA too and also founded a city on our patch of the island, between Tilburg and Harlingen. It's superbly placed so we can conquer it later. Our Iro friends are hooking up iron and now have 3 excess.
Turn 8
We become a republic, I MM all cities and sell 1 silks to Persia for 21 gold and 3 gpt. Set research to poly on 0% with 1 scientist. Hoping england will get it before they do rep. O/w I'll up the research once the ivory is connected
Portugal lands a settler on a site that I wanted to settle [grrr] At least we can conquer it later
Turn 9
Stupid Potuguese start to move their settler !! [eek]
Turn 10
We lose our furthermost galley [cry]
I;m happy my turn is finished, playing for 2 hours, most of it waiting. No fun.
Download Attachment: /forum/icon_paperclip.gif /ProPain/MM430BC.SAV (http://www.danwilliamson.net/forum/uploaded/ProPain/MM430BC.SAV)
Lt. Killer M
04-03-2004, 17:35
wow, this sounds very good!
I don't mind switching to 5 turns per player!
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain
-Beam
-anarres <--- up
-Stapel <---- on deck
EDIT: if someone wants to play 10, it's ok as well. I still want to give the opportunity to play 5.
Got it. PP, you have the link wrong - it says danwilliamson.net when it should be civ3duelzone.com [???]
preturn (410BC): Generally we are looking good, but I can't help but feel Delft is very vunerable from
culture flips because we didn't get a temple build there in time.
The only other thing that jumps out of the save at me is the 118 gold per turn we are spending on upkeep!
We are failing to make use of the free unit upkeeep effectively because we still have 31 warriors, this
must be remidied soon.
1 (390BC): I start moving the vast majority of our units west, to upgrade and fight.
4 (350BC): I've been checking diplo each turn and England still don't have Poly yet. :(
On the good side, Portugal is building SunTzu's, so they have Feudalism. Before the Palace completes we
will switch.
5 (330BC): Now Persia is building SunTzu's.
W00t! I see land!!!! [dance]
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/20043801039_monster.330BC.jpg
28.59*KB
The Romans lack Lit, Currency and Construction - they only have 29 gold so I hold off for the moment.
Here they are on the minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/20043801157_monster.330BC-minimap.jpg
13.19*KB
6 (310BC): The Iroquois are building SunTzu's. Finally we get the Ivory with a city expansion.
We missed on a horse tile though - Middelburg build a temple (part-rushed) 2 turns ago, but the Irquois
just beat us to it:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/20043801247_monster.310BC.jpg
31.66*KB
7 (290AD): The Persians landed a settler in one of our future spots, yet weirdly moves off it towards our
territory. I put lux up to 20%, and we are only 10 gpt worse off, well worth the gains.
8 (270AD): Found Gouda - we got it just in time, 3 AI settlers are nearby.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/20043801315_monster.270BC.jpg
169.98*KB
The red spot is for our last city for a while.
10 (230AD): Summary
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/20043801425_monster.230BC.jpg
154.55*KB
A settler is on it's way to the red dot near Gouda (see pic above), there are no more spots left.
I have tried to get our military budget down by getting our cities to size 7 - each one saves us 4gpt.I
have also disbanded lots of regular warriors, but kept them in border cities where it is important.We have
gone from 118 gpt to 68 gpt.
Where possible I have build culture buildings - mostly temples but libraries where I can.
The extra lux and the 20% tax rate is really helping our cities grow - we still need more workers as
our core tile improvements aren't keeping pace with the growth explosion Republic has given us.
Polytheism comes next turn, then we have 4 AI to buy Feudalism from before our Palace pre-build completes.
It is down to 1 shield per turn and has 8 turns to go. Maybe we are too late for SunTzu's, if so I think
we should switch to the Forbidden Palace. We can always use an MGL to rush the Palace a little further
west later on (the 3/8 OCN bonus with the FP is huge and will make corruption ultra-low).
We will probably have our GA in about 20 turns or so, which means we really need to make sure we mine and
road all those grasslands in our core. We probably need to re-mine quite a lot too, several cities are
growing out of control. I am skimming workers off when I can, we always need more of them.
I heavily recommend keeping the focus on infrastructure. Libraries everywhere, then Harbours and
Marketplaces, and always Aqueducts as soon as a city has a chance of growing to size 7.
Barring the last city spot to be settled we have finished expansion. We need to slowly build our military
up with Horsemen to upgrade to Knights, but we can do that from fully improved cities so as not to slow
the infrastructure push.
The more I think about our Palace pre-build the more I think we should switch it to the FP this turn. The
Palace only costs 300 shields atm, and Rotterdam can get 22 shields per turn when at max. This means that
even if we get Feudalism next turn (it will probably cost us about 100gpt) we still have 14 turns before
we can get SunTzu's. If an AI builds it before then we are screwed. Getting to another Wonder in 8 turns
is unrealistic.
Finally a breaktrough [party]
-Aggie <----- on deck
-Killer
-ProPain
-Beam
-anarres
-Stapel <---- up
FP is ok with me also. Effects of ST arent that big atm imho, with low corruption we can build those rax ourselves.
More interesting: what's gonna be our general strategy?
2 options I think:
Peace route
With other civs quite a sail away, we can profit quite a while from our contacts and before PrPr they cant be extorted too. We can use this to get a tech lead over our fellow islanders and postpone war for libs, marketplaces and uni's and strike later with hopefully a technical superior army.
War route
Screw city improvements! Build rax and horsies/swords, drag in other islanders and gang up on one of them. Most obvious victims : iros or Persians.
Iro's are the easiest to attack from all sites, but they're powerfull. Persians are weaker but harder to reach, chances are iro's will get a bigger chunk out of them than we which would leave us with a more powerfull neighbour than before.
Lt. Killer M
08-03-2004, 09:48
PP, I'd actually mix the two.
peace now, hit the Iros with Knights, take a chunk of their lands then let the other AIs deal with them while building up for a Cav attack.
Also, we only have one Galley at the time. I'm sure we had more, but we need others to discover even more land.
I like the build up phase now and war route when we have knights.
It's good to see how we expanded. I never thought that the end of the first expansion phase would be our choice. Instead I expected the 512 city limit message earlier.
Short term route looks OK to me, we should seek to leverage our main advantage over the AI as well and that is contact with as many as possible. It most likely will not be until end of MA before our fellow islanders start making contact.
For making a judgement on FP vs. SunTzu I would like to see the sav. Can someone post please?
btw, great infra / budget management anar!
Beam, anarres sent you the save (cdz e-mail). But I will post the link.
Done: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MM.230BC.zip
I sent you all the save in your email Beam.
We need to make a definite decision on the Palace pre-build/FP, I think everyone should say their opinion on it.
My personal opinion is that if we go to war it has to be the Iroquis we go after (like Killer suggests). My gut instinct was to upgrade our Warriors to Med Inf for just that, but when I started the game I realised we needed infra much more than anything else.
Knights are still 3 full techs away, I think that we can take Horses from fully developed cities and *still* have a large army ready by the time we get to Knights. There really is no need at all to take units from cities until they have all the following:
Harbour (if required)
Library
Marketplace
Courthouse (if required)
Aqueduct (if required)
Barracks
Another great reason not to take units is that every new unit costs 2 gpt to maintain. We currently pay 68gpt, but we should aim to reduce this over the next 20 to 30 turns (until Knights) until we start builidng our army in earnest.
Regarding Rome: We should go ALL the way around that landmass before we chance sinking our ship there! Usual barb gally evasion techniques are essential (i.e. move 1 tile at a time and avoid confrontation if at all possible), and with luck we will find another AI or two on their island. The speed with which they researched Republic implies they are not alone.
One last thing: We must not waste the power of our GA by not being ready! All grass should be producing at least 1 shield, and all should be roaded.
I like the FP and the infra push. But to be honest: anarres said it all and more.
Lt. Killer M
08-03-2004, 12:18
anarres is right on!
Up to me huh? Got it. Will wait until decision FP is made. I think Rotterdam is not the perfect spot for an FP, but it is quite ok to build it rigth away anyway, rigth now.
There is one thing I don't understand:
quote:I think that we can take Horses from fully developed cities
What does that mean? What does taking units from cities mean?
Building horses in cities which have all improvements in them (see anarres' post for the infra we want). Other cities should have infra first.
I want to add that those (improved) cities can produce galleys as well. We have to meet the other 25 civs!
Good point about not forgetting the Galley's Aggie!
FWIW I was sending out about 1 galley/turn in to the void in the east, it would be great for a second gally to make it to the Roman island. Even if our first makes it all around and goes off in one direction to find land, we have at least 2 more directions from that island to explore from.
We also desperately need galleys heading off the west coast, but that is a very long-term job.
I still don't know what 'taking a unit from a city' means. Just building? In that case, it seems pretty obvious to me, to develop cities first, if war is in the relatively far future anyway.
The only thing debatable is when is a courthouse 'required'.
Sometimes stating the obvious is very worthwile Stapel. The strangest mistakes are made when thinking that you shouldn't mention something because it is so logical. And what's more: these are not instructions, but are meant as source for discussion and information to other players (at least that is everything I post here).
A courthouse appears to be required to me in cities with 50% corruption or something like that.
Well, I did learn my lessons in "horse-building and waiting to upgrade to knights while paying a zillion gold in upkeep". I also remeber a horde of archers waiting to get promoted to Beserks, while bankrupting myself.
As a guide I would say any corruption over 25% deserves a courthouse, not 50%.
The main reason I mentioned building horses only afer buildings is that we were discussing a peaceful or military route. Killer suggested a mix of the two, but I was trying to show that the peaceful route will fulfil all our warmongering needs.
We don't need to specifically prepare for war - we will naturally get units built up without having to sacrifice a single city improvement. People like to think of me as a warmonger, but I am actually a builder that likes to fight in the right places. ;)
One think we should decide is our tech path through the middle ages. I will state now that I think we should head for Astronomy (then probably Nav), and we should make 100% sure to get the most important wonder: Malligans Voyage (is this right?, I get it so infrequently). Getting Feudalism (for our GA), and getting Chivalry are ok, but we will want Education to build Universities asap.
I am thinking that our GA probably won't come without us deliberately provoking a war, so if we are not getting attacked we should consider reseraching to Education and trading for Chivalry. This will allow us to build Unis during our GA. We should definitely prioritise Unis in this game - I really hate it when people slack off on building them because they are expensive, and they win every game for me (no joke!).
I am a scientific warmonger (the two things I like most in Civ) and therefore agree with the Education (universities)->Astronomy->Navigation (Magellan's) path. It's only deity so the AI can be outresearched/we can research techs the AI doesn't :). Note that I found that Navigation is very populair with AI's these days (C3C).
Newton and Copernicus would be nice too, but will probably be taken in cascades. Magellan naturally runs the same risk.
EDIT: deleted quote on my own reply
Assuming gov is still despotism it is worth considering when to revolt. Rep. seems very obvious given tech-road but requires 2 gpt per unit over a certain base allowance. Iirc that base allowance is 1 unit / city when < 6 and is 3 units / city when between 6 and 12. Worthwile verifying (at work now). Rule of thumb could be that the majority of cities is > before revolt.
I will follow the building strategy, but not forget on military.
The university strategy is ok with me.
Beam, read the last 2 reports again. ;)
Sorry if that last comment was a bit flippant, but twice in my report I talk about the unit costs, and at least once after the report I mention the 2gpt-per-unit upkeep costs. I also talk about lowering this by getting our cities to size 7. [mischief]
Diagonal reading at work > main assumption wrong > post is mustard after dinner (mosterd na de maaltijd). [wallbash]
(Not entirely) trivial statistics on number of cities:
- Dutch: 20
- Iroqs: 29
- Persia: 19
- Lizzy: 15
- Port.: 19
Which means that 102 cities (about 20% of max.) are on our "island" and owned by 16% of Civs.
- Romans: 26
Means 128 cities (25% of max.) owned by 19% of Civs.
My bet is there are just 1 or 2 bigger than the ones known by us and many more are perishing in the wilderness. Load those galleys with cheap merchandise! [}:)] Meantime find the big ones.
Same shit here Aggie. Sorry folks! My new toy, combined with my stupidity of course, caused network / internet shit.
I managed to mess-up a video-card, by plugging and unplugging it manually, while it was running. Well, at least that is what I think caused the problems. Since yesterday evening (very late), most stuff works again. Un forunately, I won't be home tonight too long.
Please skip me (or have patience until friday night) .
Stapel, I can play tonight and we could swap...
IHT: Rotterdam switched to FP.
Turn 1 (210 BC) At 80% science we are able to research Feudalism in 8 turns. Unfortunatelly, we don't have the money.
Persia knows Feudalism and Engineering. Portugal and Iroquois only know Feudalism. It's impossible to buy Engineering from Persia at mono, although we make 165 gpt with 0% science [:o]
At 50% science (-5 gpt) we can research Monotheism in 15 turns. I take that shot.
Turn 2 (190 BC) I sell silks to Portugal for Furs, 23 gold and 3 gpt.The Persians start Leo.
Turn 3 (170 BC) :sleep:
Turn 4 (150 BC) I try to found Dordrecht:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Aggie/2004311222019_MM150BCtoomany.jpg
Feudalism and Engineering are now known to all.
Turn 5 (130 BC) Persia and the Iroquois know Mono :( I buy Mono from the Iroquois for 64 gpt and 260 gold. Portugal gives me Enineering for Mono and 10 gold. I decide to go min science towards Theology.
Turn 6 (110 BC) Rome is still the only civ on the new island...
Turn 7 (90 BC) A galley sinks, but another is still on the way to Rome.
Turn 8 (70 BC) Galley continues the trip.
Turn 9 (50 BC) The Iroquois start Leo.
Turn 10 (30 BC) The galley is still sailing. Groningen riots.
We make a large amount of money and are a few techs behind the AI's we know (the three frontrunners that is. I was constantly waiting for 2fers and would start full research on Printing Press once Theology comes in. Our tech speed would be quite good already, but I didn't want to throw away the money like I did with Mono.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MM-30BC.zip
-Aggie <----- just played
-Killer <---- on deck
-ProPain
-Beam
-anarres
-Stapel <---- up
Lt. Killer M
11-03-2004, 23:17
aggie, i will not be able to play I think! Please EXPECT ot skip me....... If I do not post a got it ont he evening 21:00 GMT+1) of the day the save is posted, skip me!
A possible crossing point at the N of the Roman island and lots of rocks there! Everyone has settler combo's ready, try to settle D'drecht every turn I guess. Most amazing, our most corrupted cities still produce at 50%.
Just an organizational point, is it asking to much if both player up and on deck can indicate if they can play within 2 resp. 4 days? I think this can be a very interesting game and just would like to keep it going.
EDIT: Beware, Killer and me might be telepathical!
Beam, you are right! I should have tried to settle every turn, since there are wars going on!
Lt. Killer M
12-03-2004, 08:16
[lol]@ Beam, and [thumbsup] also, on both settling and players indicating ;)
I am playing a similar game SP and got two cities that way.
Two questions:
1. How about the FP?
2. Are we still in despotism? If so, why? Anything against a revolt the very next turn?
We've been a Republic for over 20 turns, and Aggie built the FP on his first turn.
Ahem... I hope that you at least read the build orders from anarres dear Stapel ;)
Build orders? :(
Edit: I'm not gonna play in SG's if I can't be an equal part of it with everyone else...
ehm...build SUGGESTIONS :D
EDIT: anarres, what do you mean??? When did I give the impression that I was following without thinking?
Aggie only mentioned he switched to FP, not if or when it was completed.
Beam assumed we were in despotism.
Ignore my last comment Aggie, I am over-sensitive of people taking what I say as diktat.
Stapel, I was rather short in my report due to a crash when I was making it. It was completed next turn obvisouly losing 90+ shields.
@anarres: np, I'm am over-sensitive today as a whole.
I am puzzled. Why aren't our horses positioned near the two Persian cities in OUR land? What exactly would be wrong with lining up horsies rigth now, and declare war in 1 or 2 turns, after our silks deal has ended?
It seems like an easy target!
Am I missing something?
I didn't think we were going to war so soon. Persia is strong, and we are close to Knights.
How big is our army now?
Turn one report. I did move 7 of 11 of our horsies. Persians have muskets :(. That is sucky! We happen to be Feudalism, Invention and Gunpowder behind! Our research was on 50 turns Feudalism, 45 to go. Buying Feudalsim is possible, but expensive. we cannot sell it to anyone.
Knights are 20? turns away, when doing the research ourselves. We have 1000 gold and make 180 gpt, and can get Feudalsim in 9 at -28gpt. In 8 in -62 gpt, in 7 in -105gpt. Buying it costs 1000 + 130gpt.
What puzzles me the most: we are doing a min science, while behind, on a known tech: feudalism. Aggie told he was researching theology....
Switching now to Theology will give it in 11 turns on -28gpt.
Answers please ;) !
When did our silks deal with the Persians start? It mentions no expiration date...
Simply re-negotiate that one, or cancel it...
Well, since I won't attack soon anyway, that is not really needed! I'll focus on markets and libraries, and try to patch u[p in techs.
Any ideas on the theo - feudalism thing Aggie?
No, I don't know why I didn't choose for Theo... Just try the max Theo. Might be worthwhile. And after that we can go for Printing Press.
I already did that ;). I was just wondering... In your report, you did choose theo...
Pre turn; 30 BC; I release the horsies.
Turn 1; 10 BC; found Leerdam. Mover horsies further and see that Persians have gunpowdered defense. This means no war for a while. Change science to theology in 11 turns.
Turn 2; 10 AD; I see Leerdam is not founded on the spot where Aggie tried before... In fact, it is now on a worse spot. I didn't pay good attention. OTOH: We should have settlers in position! We still have a few spots left!
Turn 3; 30 AD;
Turn 4; 50 AD; renew silks deal with Persia for 16 gold and 18 gpt.
Turn 5; 70 AD; nothing special
Turn 6; 90 AD; 2 riotting cities :( . 1 galley lost
Turn 7; 110 AD; nothing special.
Turn 8; 130 AD; 2 galleys sink.... speed up tech research. theo in 2 at -96gpt now.
Turn 9; 150 AD; theo in 1 at -46gpt. Managed exactly to the 2 scientist specialists will do the trick. nobody (we know) knows theo...Turn 10; 170 AD; We have theo. Maya complete Sun Tzu, Iroquis complete Leo's, Persians complete Knights Templar. It is trading time! BTW: IT took less than 5 minutes :D .
First we meet the backward Indians and Babylonians.
-Buy Feudalism for 183 gpt & 291 gold from Portuguese
-Sell Theology to Iroquis for Chivalry, Invention, 137 gold & 14gpt
-Buy Gunpowder (all have it) from Xerxes for theo and 407 gold. It appears Xerxes has chemistry... Not for sale.
-Sell theo to Portuguese for 85 gpt & 1 gold
Printing press in 13 turns at 34 gpt. We have 18 gold cash. We do need cash to upgrade our horsies. We have 14 more turns of silk forced peace with Persians.
Looking good Stapel! Now where's that save [tongue]
-Aggie
-Killer <---- up
-ProPain <--- on deck
-Beam
-anarres
-Stapel
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MM170AD.SAV
We have 3 settlers in place. You might not like them all, but we need to make cities when possible!
Lt. Killer M
15-03-2004, 05:35
got it.
agree on the towns: we can always abandon and refound, but we can't be sure if an 'open' spot stays open
Some thinks to consider.
We have no saltpeter. That is good! Now we can upgrade to Swiss Mercenaries. There is Saltpeter near in Persian area.
I think we should go to war with the Persians after 14 turns. We have quite some horsies ready for upgrade. In the mean time, more cities become knight producing cities. When having three army groups, we can do the trick. Two smaller ones for the Persians cities in our lands, the rest near the Persian border near Delft (up north). When we declare war, we hould be able to to take the two cities in our lands. In the meantime, we can easily hold off the Perians near Delft, by killing the SoD that will probably stand near Delft. Leave on unit to kill itself on our Swiss Mercenary, to trigger a Golden Age.
Next thing to do: Bring all knights to Delft and start a coastal city taking campaign. After that we should be able to tech milk Persia.
Yes, I dreamt about the game ;)
Two questions though:
-Does Persia still lack horsies?
-How far away is the Iroquis Leonardo town?
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
Some thinks to consider.
We have no saltpeter. That is good! Now we can upgrade to Swiss Mercenaries. There is Saltpeter near in Persian area.
That doesn't matter. We would have Swiss Mercs anyway ;)
I like the game plan but can't answer your questions, since I'm at work.
quote:Originally posted by Aggie
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
Some thinks to consider.
We have no saltpeter. That is good! Now we can upgrade to Swiss Mercenaries. There is Saltpeter near in Persian area.
That doesn't matter. We would have Swiss Mercs anyway ;)
Aha, didn't know that. BTW: upgrading from spear to swiss costs 30. From horse to knight costs 120.
I fwe are lucky, we can sell PP to Persia for cash, the turn before we attack them.
Killer...what is the status?
Lt. Killer M
16-03-2004, 13:10
oh.
oops
ahem...
will play after 17:00 today, get it done befre modnight. SORRY!!!!!!
Lt. Killer M
16-03-2004, 15:10
sorry, Dan. I can start playing in 45 mins.
hehe, don't listen to me!
This thread has inspired me to play a solo 360x360 game .
Not on deity though. [scared]
Lt. Killer M
17-03-2004, 17:16
ggargh, all day no net :( and I lost my report in a crash on turn 9(?).
and a very unelegant solution to the upload thingy. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MM300AD.SAV)
nothing major. I skimmed workers where possible. Iros refued per turn in lux deal. We will get PP next turn, as I use da shor burst of negative income to skim a turn off it.
Made ROP with Persia - they kept kicking our empty galleys [eek] I have rarely encountered that in SP games, so I made the mistake to think I could simply sneak through.
-Aggie
-Killer
-ProPain <--- up
-Beam <------ on deck
-anarres
-Stapel
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