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Socrates
07-02-2004, 15:46
NOT FOR KILLER until the game is over.

Hello ! This is my 1st spoiler, I hope you'll enjoy reading about my PBEMs and learn some tips about how I play this game. No need to say that I can change my playing style whenever I want. [coool] I plan to make good spoilers, from the beginning to the end of the games, but I may want to delay information release, just for security and to see what people have to say for upcoming turns, when they're already played... Anyone is welcome to throw in comments, advice, congrats or harsh criticism. But please no information from the other player's spoiler !!! Now the plane is taking off, and the journey begins...



1v1 PBEM #2 - [u]kryszcztov v Killer :</u>
version : C3C 1.15b
world size : Standard
land mass : Continents
water coverage : 80%
climate : Wet
temperature : Warm
age : 3 Billion
barbarians : Sedentary
player 1 - kryszcztov : Byzantines
player 2 - Killer : Spain
AI rivals : 6 unspecified
AI agression : Normal
available victories : all except Wonder
difficulty : Emperor
culturally linked start locations : No (I believe)
respawn AI players : No (I believe)
preserve random seed : Yes (I believe)
allow cultural conversions : Yes (I believe)

map made by : Skyfish

This game will be played along the RBCiv rules, and some more other rules that you can find in our open thread :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1442

Socrates
07-02-2004, 16:38
STARTING POSITION

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200427153048_kryszcztov-Killer01 3950BC StartingPosition.JPG
52.86KB

AIs have been placed on mountains in 4000BC, thus haven't settled before us.
I settle right after sending the worker on the cow. This site is very good, it has 2 cows, many bonus grasslands, 2 spices forests, and a river running through the center of the area. It will allow an especially good micro-managing cycle in the future, which I only realized some turns later (but not too late). So Constantinople is founded in 3950BC. Actually I didn't realize both agricultural AND expansionnist civs get Pottery as a starting tech. So with only 2 civs with it (in my mind, and probably 1 on my continent) instead of 4 (for real, and probably 2 on my continent), I go for Pottery at max.

Socrates
07-02-2004, 17:00
ON TO EXPLORATION AND SETTLER FACTORY

As you can see, I think I'll mainly divide my spoilers in little chapters, whose sizes will depend on what happens in the game.

Constantinople first built 3 warriors ; the 1st one went straight northwards, the 2nd one went westwards, and the 3rd one fortified in the capital city. I met the Hittites on turn 12 (3400BC), and could have gave them Bronze Working for Pottery. Had I known I would get such an opportunity so early, I would have gone for Writing from the beginning, probably a gambit. But oh well, I discovered Pottery on the next turn, and then took an important decision : "I need to take some risk in this game !" So I set science on Writing at max, ignoring the fact that the 1st estimation was saying 40 turns (only 10 less than for a gambit).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20042715518_kryszcztov-Killer02 3350BC Pottery.JPG
151.87*KB

I then met the Romans on turn 15 (3250BC), and the Portuguese on turn 16 (3200BC). At that point I took another radical decision, very unusual for me : now that I had made 3 contacts on my continent, I thought that I wouldn't meet any more civs without sailing through the ocean. Both of us being seafearing civs comforted me in that thought, so I recalled my 2 warriors in the north, so as they could take care of settlers that would soon appear in Constantinople. A hut not far from the capital city and that I wanted to open myself called for this decision too, as Romans and Portuguese were obvioulsy tempted by this goodie thingie...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20042716033_kryszcztov-Killer03 3200BC ThreeContacts.JPG
110.71*KB

Socrates
07-02-2004, 17:44
SETTLING DREAM : "WONDERFUL FACTORY"

I don't know if some of you guys know this, but anyway I used it in my GOTM 24 - Korea, thanks to a post by Qitai at CFC. This is essentially a 4-turn settler factory where you get a "bonus" warrior, which is perfect for settling fast with security. It stroke me during the 20 first turns, so I simulated the starting position in the editor, and was glad to find out it would eventually work. :)

The hut gave me 3 barbs, but fortunately I didn't lose a warrior. The granary in Constantinople was completed on turn 23 (2850BC), and the city started to pump out settlers, while waiting for the worker to improve all the needed land. Yes, being industrious would have helped me in this task (I don't think being agricultural would have been helpful, due to micro-managing considerations), but I would get other advantages elsewhere with my 2 traits. On turn 26 (2710BC) Constantinople reached size 7, and on the next turn the 1st settler was built, but somehow the semi-food box was empty at size 5 just after that ; I think that's why you shouldn't spend a whole turn at size 7, but I'll make some tests someday. Maybe I could have done it a little better.

On turn 31 (2510BC) a 2nd settler was built, and my treasury was totally empty (0 gold, doing -3 gpt !). But Adrianople was immediately founded on an excellent site : 2 food bonuses, several bonus grasslands, and the river... I had planned this city for a special task : build the Great Library from scratch. [eek] Yes, and that's why my science was at max : speed to get all the essential techs, hopefully to get many free techs afterwards.

On turn 38 (2230BC) this is it : a 4th settler was produced in Constantinople, and by now all the tiles that were needed for the "wonderful factory" were improved. It's a bit late, and even with 80% water this strategy proved to be useful. Anyway it's just an improved 4-turn settler factory, so it's all bonus. Here is a screenshot from that turn, at the beginning of the cycle :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200427164054_kryszcztov-Killer04 2230BC WonderfulFactory.JPG
120.36*KB

That's all for now. [goodjob] We have already played more turns, but I want to delay that a little, and also wait for enough to make a new chapter, etc... Don't hesitate to make suggestions for the next turns even though they're played ; this could allow me to improve my skills for a future game. And please any remark concerning how I make my spoilers are welcome.

Skyfish
07-02-2004, 22:01
Is that really a [eek] settler [eek] up there going North between Rome and Tarsus ?\

Where da hell is he going ?

Socrates
08-02-2004, 20:02
Yeah, that's a settler going north ! [coool] Actually, as stated before, this is a pic taken on the turn my 4th settler was built. You can also see 2 other settlers in the pic, plus Adrianople. The first 4 settlers obviously didn't make for a coastal site. Killer might be surprised by this move, but don't tell him. [blush]

Socrates
09-02-2004, 23:17
THE EXPANSIONNIST AND SCIENCE-BLITZING BYZANTINES

So Constantinople eventually entered the "wonderful factory" cycle, pumping out 1 warrior and 1 settler every 4 turns. [cool] I won't show a pic of my land this time, but only once it will be fully settled. But anyway Caesarea was founded on turn 40 (2150BC), just one tile north of where he is standing on the pic just above. There are some good tiles there, so I wanted to get there to have good land in the future, and also to deny it to the AIs. On turn 42 (2070BC) Nicaea was founded by the 4th settler, where the 3rd is standing in the pic. On turn 44 (1990BC) Varna was founded 4 tiles south-west of Caesarea, just 3 tiles away from Rome (again), but this time stealing some of its tiles. :D Romans had been busy settling on the other side, and so I took the opportunity to found cities right in front of them. We'll see later if that was a good move.

Spices near my capital were connected on turn 45 (1950BC), so now I could get more beakers. In those times I would set science at maximum speed, sometimes just being at 0 gold ! On the next turn I discovered Writing, and of course I was the 1st on my continent to get it (I assume my "continent" is composed by the 3 of them and me only).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200429211827_kryszcztov-Killer05 1910BC Writing.JPG
54.28*KB

No way I would sell the precious tech ! Of course it's a great tech to share with your "team mates" (remember it's continents here), but because my aim was to get the Great Library, I wasn't going to go against my strategy, all the more with Emperor AIs !!

Then the settling phase continued (well... it never stopped !) ; on turn 49 (1790BC) I eventually settled on the coast : Smyrna on the west coast and Heraclea on the east coast. At that time Romans had settled (or were about to) on a site I wanted to steal (with ivory), and Hittites had settled one step closer again, on the coast, just next to Constantinople. I was disappointed, but I just couldn't get ALL the land. My hope is that it will eventually flip to me ; it's the easiest way I could get it, but it's also the most unlikely, and during all that time that's many uncorrupted tiles that I can't harvest, but oh well.

For the rest of the settling phase : Trebizond on turn 54 (1650BC), Chalcedon on turn 59 (1525BC), Sardica on turn 61 (1475BC), thus getting me 10 towns, what is required now for the Forbidden Palace (it was good for the prebuild in Adrianople). Adrianople started the prebuild on turn 48 (1830BC). During those turns, barbs were threatening me, barbs from a hut popped up by Romans in my backyard, I guess. One even managed to pillage a wheat tile near Adrianople, which isn't good news when you're not industrious ! [aargh] Also the AIs were apparently lacking space, because they were sending some settlers through my territory, but I managed to settle everywhere (so far !) before them. I was a bit worried about them to declare a sudden war on me, because all I had were warriors, and I was lacking Warrior Code... Some turns later 2 of the AIs got Writing too, so I sold it to the 3rd one (Hittites) for the Wheel + 10 gold (quite expensive tech and horses).

On turn 61 (1475BC) I was the 1st one to discover Code of Laws. My plan was to go for Philo first, but then I thought I may have a chance to get Code of Laws first too. I was a little comfortable with this idea, because I was researching as fast as I could and because this game is on Emperor. My only fear came from the other mysterious continent ; I was wondering what Killer was doing with the AIs and his own research. I bet he went straightly for a Writing gambit, and some MSN chatting seemed to confirm that he had it at that time (we have "no lie" as a rule in CDZ, it seems). But I was confident in my research, so next I went for Philosophy at maximum speed too.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200429214822_kryszcztov-Killer06 1475BC CodeOfLaws.JPG
54.07*KB

I built a curragh in Heraclea right away, and I started exploring to the east, as there seemed to be some land there. The little boat quickly founded out that it was a nice middle-sized island, completely unsettled of course. And look at those tiles, not far from the capital !! [eek] Skyfish is such a nice guy. :D

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20042921527_kryszcztov-Killer07 1350BC EastIsland.JPG
197.16*KB

The sad thing is that I tried to load a settler and a warrior on the boat, only to find out that curraghs can't ferry anything. :( I don't know C3C very well, but anyway I like this boat like that : you still need Map Making in order to settle overseas, which makes sense both historically and in gameplay. On turn 65 (1375BC) Nicaea completed a barracks : it will produce the spearmen I desperately need.

And this is where I'm now so happy with this game :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200429215754_kryszcztov-Killer08 1300BC Philosophy.JPG
55.55*KB

I was nervous when I got the save from Killer (if you're watching this, Killer (after your defeat :D ), this is what I was so nervous about on MSN), and I was released to see I was the 1st civ in the world to get Philosophy, on turn 68 (1300BC). Killer had told me some turns before that Philosophy suddenly seemed a little cheaper, and wondered whether I had it (of course no, and of course it wouldn't be the reason, and of course I won't ever tell you anything !!). So I was afraid that another civ on his continent already had it, but then he would have known... [crazyeye] Well I'll never run into such chatting again, it's not worth the thing. Now tell me : am I going to click on "Yeah OK, let's start researching Warrior Code, just for fun !" ??? :D

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20042922430_kryszcztov-Killer09 1300BC Republic.JPG
54.9*KB

When I saw that I shouted a big "YEAH !!!" [goodjob] I think it's the 1st time I've got this tech so early in Civ3. To my pleasure science is worth doing again in this game, at least on Emperor. Now a scientific leader would have been "the cherry on the cake" (as we say in French), but then I would have had such an advantage !... [eek] With all these techs I grabbed first (I assume, at least for the last 2 techs), and being scientific, it would have been a nice reward for my efforts. :) Remember that scientific civs, if I'm not mistaken, have a 5% chance to get one every tech they discover first, which is quite a lot actually.


This is where I'll stop tonight. We're just 1 or 2 turns after that anyway. Killer is suspecting something on MSN, but he won't tell me what, and he's going to laugh silently (after I told him that too). Asked why, he answered : "You'll soon see." [???] Anyway this game feels great, I'm outscoring everyone by far. The fields in which I'm not doing good are military and sea exploration. But each turn that passes is a turn for my side (as I get stronger and stronger). Still, I'm expecting some surprise, I know PBEM is a different world. As for Republic, I plan to revolt in a few turns, once Constantinople has finished its current settler. I'll then have 2 of them waiting for my curragh to upgrade to a ferrying dromon. [coool] The east island is waiting for me. Or maybe I can send 1 of them to a last piece of estate, it will depend on possibly withdrawing AIs.

Irigy
09-02-2004, 23:30
A question from a curious newbie, that happens to play against Killer as well. [blush]

How on earth do you finance your science output (or vice-versa the remaining upkeep of your cities and troops)? [eek]

I'm quite sure that there's no short answer to this, but if you could give me a hint for what to look out (some keyword or something) i'm quite sure that i'm capable of finding it myself.

Other than that: [goodjob]

Good job! Keep it up, i'm very impressed...

Skyfish
10-02-2004, 07:30
This is a real fun spoiler Krys [goodjob]

quote:(we have "no lie" as a rule in CDZ, it seems)
Yeah right [lol]


quote:the "wonderful factory" cycle, pumping out 1 warrior and 1 settler every 4 turns
[groucho]
Am flabbergasted! [eek]
You said this was a Qitai tactic can you tell me more please ? A link ?
How do you do it ?

ERIKK
10-02-2004, 09:20
Yeah, very interesting!

Socrates
10-02-2004, 21:57
Irigy, I was surprised myself to see that I had no problem researching at maximum speed for such a long time. What I mean by "maximum science" isn't a full 100% all the time, of course. I had to pay 1gpt for the granary no matter what, starting on turn 23. So when I had 0 gold in my treasury on turn 31, I had to lower science a little (I think I've never gone under 80%, unless exception), to stay at 0 gold during the next turns (it required carefully playing, so as not to find my granary sold on the next turn [crazyeye] ). During this turn (31) I also founded my 2nd town, Adrianople, which allowed me to upkeep up to 8 units for free. I happened to have between 5 and 8 units at that time (I said I was going at -3 gpt just before settling, so minus the granary, that must mean 2 gpt for units = 6 units total). Of course this math had been carefully done some turns before. :D And on the last turn before getting a new tech, you can actually get some gold, because it's not round, and that gold helped to go for maximum science too. Luxury rate happened to be the most limiting factor to 100% science, though. All in all, it was some fine piece of micro-managing, and some fun, because I found out science was worth doing, more than in PTW.

Skyfish, I wanted to keep my precious secret for myself, but then there wouldn't be any reason to come here and post a spoiler... [}:)] Of course I'll give you all the link. This is the pre-game discussion for GOTM 24, in which I for once actively participated. :D Read the posts regarding the starting position, and Qitai comes in with this on post #65. I happened to be thinking of something similar too (post #71), but Qitai deserves all the credits.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65070

Skyfish
10-02-2004, 22:15
EDIT : cant give the noobs a hard time anymore [devil2]
[mad3]

Maybe you could re-edit this post, so as to explain what you first wrote here... [crazyeye] Actually I don't know what you wanted to say. - krys
(Hehe, I always wanted to know how this feature worked, well it's simple ; and I also didn't reply (but edited) because your post is worthless otherwise.)

Irigy
11-02-2004, 13:02
kryszcztov, thanks a lot for that excellent explanation! [goodjob]

I really, really appreciate it... i'll try it in my next pbem for sure.

[cool]

Socrates
13-02-2004, 00:19
THE GLORIOUS DAYS OF THE YOUNG REPUBLIC

Constantinople was completing its last cycle in this game, because Republic couldn't wait long. On turn 69 (1275BC) Naissus was founded, my 11th town. On turn 70 a last settler quit the capital, and I, err... the Empress of the Byzantines, threw the Empire into anarchy ! :) I drew a 5-turn anarchy period. I was afraid of those turns, because I was weak military speaking, and so it was a window for an AI to sneak attack me. Needless to say I hired scientists where needed instead of taxmen. :D

On Killer's turn 71, he told me on MSN that he knew I had Philosophy. That was because he had just got it, and no free tech popped up. :D So that was a few turns close. I'm really, really happy. Then, in a 4-turn-timespan, the Portuguese got 3 techs (Map Making, Code of Laws and Philosophy) in a row !! [eek] That couldn't be something else than Killer coming to my continent. I knew he would come first, because he must have gone for a coastal spot as soon as possible and because I'm not experienced at all in PBEM. But that seemed quite early. I can't tell, before knowing the entire map, if he had luck with his boats or if it was pretty straightforward to cross the world. So I gave Code of Laws to Romans for Iron Working + 43 gold, being afraid of losing some opportunity to make money... and to know where iron is. And on turn 75 (1125BC) The Byzantine Republic was proclamed. It was a fragile Republic that had a lot of potential but would have to fight to stay ahead of other cultures.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004212221649_kryszcztov-Killer10 1175BC RepublicProclamed.JPG
185*KB

Then things went on quite quickly. Romans acquired Map Making on turn 77 (1075BC), Hittites on turn 80 (1000BC). This tech had to be mine quickly, because there was this island very close to my capital, and because Map Making means dromons. [evil] On turn 79 (1025BC) a 2nd curragh was built on the west coast, and ivory and horses were connected to the capital.

Turn 80 (1000BC) funnily marks a turning point in the game. On that turn I discovered that Killer had found me, he had a curragh near Heraclea. He immediately signed a MA with the Portuguese against me. [blush2] Talk about happy meeting... This indeed threw the Empire into war happiness. [cool] I also discovered Literature, first amongst the civs that I knew and that weren't at war with me (Killer didn't have it). I'm still waiting for my 1st SGL, but I'm sure I'll get one someday.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200421222345_kryszcztov-Killer11 1000BC Literature.JPG
54.93*KB

So that's it, I stopped science, praying for the Great Library to be mine soon. I eventually found out that this wonder would be built in Constantinople sooner than in Adrianople, so the capital swapped to the Library while the 2nd city swapped to the Mausoleum of Mausollos. [eek] Yes that's right, the weak Mausoleum. Well, not that weak : first it will provide happiness in that city, the only one that can grow large now but suffers some corruption, it will provide culture, gold as a touristic attraction, but also : A GOLDEN AGE !! This wonder matches my 2 traits, scientific and seafearing, and there was the plan : get a Golden Age without bothering getting a dromon victory, so as Constantinople can complete the Library sooner ! It surely is the beginning of the game and I don't have many cities, but at least I'm in Republic. I gave Code of Laws + 7 gold + 5 gpt to the Hittites for the precious Map Making.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004212223513_kryszcztov-Killer12 1000BC KillerContact.JPG
185.62*KB

Even die-hard micro-managers fail sometimes, and on next turn Naissus, my latest little city, rioted ; well, those women's faces are hard to decipher... On turn 83 (925BC) my 2 cities in the north were connected at last to the rest of the Empire, as well as the "Roman incense", but a bit late : Portuguese were now in my territory, 2 warriors in front of Caesarea. I thought that losing this town wasn't really important, with all my power and potential, but I was afraid of war weariness and of losing more cities afterwards. So I established an embassy with the Hittites, noted their weakness :D and signed a MA with them against the Portuguese, giving Philosophy + 4 gold. Horses can be of help, think 3-man chariots.

Next turn I was very pleased to see that both warriors were gone, and mine wasn't even hit (and promoted). Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, but I'm stealing words here... Meanwhile Killer was exploring my southern coast with his curragh, and I was unable to stop him, because I had to build a dromon or upgrade a curragh (but that required building a harbor), and money was hard to find in those early days of Republic. On turn 84 (900BC) I upgraded the "eastern curragh" to a dromon, but it was too late to catch Killer's stupid boat. And it was supposed to land the 2 settlers I had kept on the island.

On turn 86 (850BC) Killer was about to meet the Romans along the west coast, because Caesar had sent down a galley. There was nothing I could really do to prevent the meeting, I didn't have time to upgrade the curragh, so I decided to go destroying the Spanish pirates. Killer couldn't have seen it coming (out of sight), and my brave curragh successfully accomplished its mission, losing 2 of its 3 hp ! [goodjob] Killer knew he was soon to meet the Romans and applauded my move (what a gentleman !). I also established an embassy with the Romans, noted their weakness :D but didn't bother signing a MA against the evil Portuguese, because all I was up was Literature and Republic (too precious to give to Killer).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200421223341_kryszcztov-Killer13 825BC MausoleumGoldenAge.JPG
67.22*KB

Adrianople completed the Mausoleum of Mausollos on turn 87 (825BC), thus triggering a Golden Age ! All those latest dozens of turns, I had been outscoring Killer in score, power (F8) and in population, production and gold income (F11). The Golden Age almost doubled my net income, and shields were suddenly flooding in my cities, particularly in Constantinople, where the Library got a nice discount. On the same turn Dyrrachium and Septum were founded on the east island, after a troubleless voyage on the sea. A hut got me a little warrior there. Both sites are excellent, the only downside (beside being on an island) is the lack of fresh water on the island. But a fair amount of food bonus lie on this soil, and so these cities will grow quite quickly.

Skyfish
13-02-2004, 10:09
Wow !
Well done and great spoiler [thumbsup]

It seems crazy to me of course that you went for the Mausoleum esspecially being in Republic already and having a nice prebuild for the Forbidden Palace. Both the GL and Mausoleum are very short term wonders, I am very surprised.
You are far ahead of everyone with your free Republic so why take a back seat now and go for the GL ?
Sometimes plans have to be changed in the middle of their excution to adapt to circumstances : being Scientific AND being in Republic 20 turns ahead of everyone you could have shot ahead in Techs very easily. I mean free tech + cheap libs man [eek] !
Also since Killer declared on you why not go for a Dromon victory to trigger the GA instead of the hard way with Wonders ? Seems particularly sad now knowing that you actually had to attack him with a curragh when you got those great Dromons [sad]
Another point is to make max use of the seafaring trait by sending curraghs ASAP, you would have much better map knowledge and could have found Killer (and his neighbours) already for a long time now ! think of the tech discounts you missed [groucho]
Finally, even though the name is greatly appropriate, Varna and Caesaera are so close to Rome it s unbelievable they have not attacked you before : I have actually *never* seen this before, I mean Varna is ONLY 2 tiles from Rome ! It s a miracle it did not get attacked or flipped [scratch]
I dont want to sound critical you are obvioulsy in control of that game, I am just very surprised at your choice of tactics.

Plux
13-02-2004, 11:04
Although I have to congratulate you on the large advantage that you have created [goodjob], and I like the very creative style of play you display, I concur with Skyfish's advice about the use of traits. Especially when you're so far ahead, exploiting your Scientific trait is very easy. Think about the increased chance on SGL's with every tech you discover as a first! Would you follow that scenario, then building the GLib becomes almost redundant (apart from the culture and denial to others) Also don't underestimate the power of sea exploration, esp being Seafaring. In my game against Erikk I 'forgot' to explore, which put me behind greatly once Erikk gained all contacts and took them all with him on his tech ride.

Irigy
13-02-2004, 16:10
Same happend in my game against killer. He took also a seafaring civ and came very (VERY) early to my continent. Now he has contact with all civs and is hugely taking advantage out of it.
Would it be possible <s>to take a look at</s> to get pictures from the power and victory screen?

Oh right, I first thought you wanted F11, about which I told a little. Wait for the Golden Age to end, then we'll have a look at them ! - krys

Socrates
13-02-2004, 16:25
quote:Originally posted by Skyfish

I dont want to sound critical you are obvioulsy in control of that game, I am just very surprised at your choice of tactics.
First part of the sentence : if you don't express alternative opinions, then what are you doing here ? :D Second part : yeah I'm different, and these suprisingly choices will make me win this game. [goodjob]

So, answers to both of you... Getting the Library was the main goal of the plan I decided well back when I chose to go for Writing at max science (hey, I got this tech in 33 turns !). This plan is still not over yet, and BTW it leads to other plans that couldn't have been unveiled so far.

I don't think the Library is weak, as everyone including Killer thinks (when I told him to look at F7, he first thought I had the Library and said it's weak). I see too many games where the Library is part of a conquest plan, so don't tell me you don't like this wonder ! [eek] Now I had all those cities that couldn't build much more than feeble units, because I was lacking so many techs. So : wonders for my super-cities, while I'm waiting for the Library. As I said, the Mausoleum was an easy one to grab ; I first thought it could be a pre-build for another nice wonder, but the Library being so expensive, I had to take this one, and then I realized it would trigger my Golden Age, which was quite well timed after all. Being first and in Republic, and being in a Golden Age means I will take an expanding advantage.

I know plans can be changed. My first goal for this game is a Space Victory. But that could change, depending on what happens in the future. I don't think I could once for all outpace everyone in science, with underdevelopped cities and an uncomplete core. I'll wait for Education to start researching again, and by then I hope to go really faster. In the meantime money will have flooded in my treasury, and I'm thinking of making good use of it. Remember all those "free" warriors ? Soon they'll get a nice sword to fight some enemy... [groucho] My FP will probably be located not far from Rome, it shouldn't be a big problem, knowing that my neighbours are weak.

Yes, sad that I had to use a curragh to destroy Killer's one, but my Republic was almost starting up, and the first turns were difficult to overcome. One funny thing is that I'm not even sure that Killer knows that the Mausoleum triggered my Golden Age, and even that I'm in a Republic ! He'll need to check F3 for that, and he's not the kind of guy who enjoys that, from what I know...

I didn't make much use of my seafearing trait (YET), but that was part of my surprising plan. You just can't get everything. I decided to quickly settle more than my land, and almost entirely succeeded. But my powerful harbor is currently building veteran dromons that will soon rule the seas. [evil] I think I can even get all the east island if I wish so. Portuguese will have a hard time dealing with them, I even saw one galley flee away, but my dromon will catch it soon. [fdevil]

Tech discount ? How can I have tech discount if I'm the 1st to discover them ? [???] The Library will give me FREE techs, a lot of them, almost an entire era.

I played with fire about settling near the Romans, but it was too tempting. [cool] BTW, both cities lie THREE tiles away from Rome (two is considered as cheat under RBCiv rules). I'm lucky they didn't flip, but even if they had, Romans would have been somewhat crippled with less land for such time. They currently have only 4 cities !!! Rome is a very weak city, so is Hattusas, and each turn now my culture is climbing back the edge...

So all in all, so far this game has been all about investment. Seafearing and particularly scientific traits will be of great help, but later in the game. Before that, money (making like 100 gpt now) will help me to overrun everyone on my continent.

You're welcome to give counter-arguments to that once again. [goodjob]

Socrates
19-02-2004, 01:21
A ROCKETING GOLDEN AGE

So I was starting my Golden Age. Portuguese were more insistent and they lost 2 warriors again near Caesarea. I soon upgraded my 2nd curragh to a dromon, on the west coast. On turn 92 (710BC) I connected my 4th lux : silks. It allowed me to make more money during this critical time. And on turn 95 (650BC) my initial plan was completed : Constantinople finished the Great Library. Built from scratch, I was proud of that and now wanted my prize.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004218234311_kryszcztov-Killer14 650BC GreatLibrary.JPG
64.68*KB

The Incans immediately built the Great Lighthouse, in their capital again, and one turn after that the Dutch completed the Pyramids in their capital. Not very good news to see all those great wonders go away to the other continent... and to Killer. [blush2] I concluded that I was too strong for my neighbours, or maybe my neighbours were so weak, and that this would balance the game a bit. :D Meanwhile I got a nice bunch of techs I really needed now : Masonry, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism, Mathematics, Horseback Riding. Hooray ! just when I was lacking good units and improvements to build.

I started to have a nice fleet of dromons, all of them built in Heraclea at a pace of 1 every 3 turns during the Golden Age. One managed to pillage an iron source in Portuguese territory, thus cutting their threat. On next turn I was pleased to see that the Hittite city of Harran had flipped to me ; this was the closest city to my capital, it will provide some nice commerce once developped.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004218235118_kryszcztov-Killer15 570BC HarranFlips.JPG
57.12*KB

With so many shields in my capital in those times (more than 30 spt), because I couldn't build marketplaces yet and because other cities were providing workers and military units, Constantinople continued building great projects (after a 1-turn delay for a standard library after the great one), and so on turn 102 (510BC) the City erected the Statue of Zeus, a magical piece of art that would provide some very nice mounted units from time to time. No need to say that the Empress was very pleased. [cool]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004218235553_kryszcztov-Killer16 510BC StatueOfZeus.JPG
62.98*KB

The Romans had just sent 2 archers at Varna's gates, and I was starting to wonder if they would attack me soon... Well, next turn provided me with a definitive answer, as I saw that I had lost 1 warrior there (the very 1st unit I lost in this game ! [eek] ) and that 1 Roman archer had gone. So, war with 3 civs... Anyway I had planned to go after the Romans pretty soon, as soon as my iron source near Caesarea would be connected, but now I was free to go. Oh, and that gave me a 2nd independant war happiness through my empire, which allowed me to go at 0% lux on some turns. War happiness from the Spanish and the Portuguese (do I have 2 there ?) was still in effect, as no more Portuguese units were coming to my cities.

I immediately killed the other Roman archer ; I had around 20 warriors then, some built in 1 turn in medium cities, all waiting for... turn 106 (430BC), when iron was ready for production ! [goodjob] I immediately upgraded 14 warriors, thanks to the cash I had kept in the last turns of the Golden Age (first rushed some things here and there).

Meanwhile on the seas, my dromons were seeking a safe way to reach the other continent, but they couldn't find one. On turn 107 (410BC), as the Golden Age was ending, I sent some of them across the ocean, and one immediately saw the Greek coast at last ! [party] You can see it near the middle of the minimap in the picture below. You can also see the 1st stack of swordsmen heading for Rome, followed by the 1st ancient cavalry. Finally, you can see an Hittite worker roading a mountain to Harran ; it's not only about city flipping ! (I know they want to connect their shit in the south-west...)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20042190737_kryszcztov-Killer17 410BC EndGoldenAge.JPG
239.38*KB

At this point in the game I fear no one. Killer is currently fighting the Greeks and possibly the Incans (not sure). He already took Athens (hoplites !) and looking at the power graph, he has already taken several cities. He only recently rose up in statistics, as his war was successfull.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200421901424_kryszcztov-Killer18 410BC VictoryScreen.JPG
57.78*KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200421901637_kryszcztov-Killer19 410BC PowerGraph.JPG
47.34*KB

As for culture, a few of his early temples just can't now match my libraries and wonders. [coool]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200421901821_kryszcztov-Killer20 410BC CultureGraph.JPG
44.89*KB

In F11 I have been leading in population, production and gold income for dozens of turns, Golden Age or not.

The Byzantines ARE the builder civ in this game, but after this Golden Age where they built many libraries, wonders, warriors, spearmen and dromons, they are about to seize the entire continent pretty quickly, with the swordsmen they equipped with all the money that came from the Golden Age. Prepare yourself for some speed action now. :)

Skyfish
19-02-2004, 10:47
Impressive !
Emperor is definitely *not* your level ;)

Socrates
19-02-2004, 14:09
Hell no !! [}:)] With PTW my level was Deity ; I didn't play many games on Deity because I found myself playing GOTMs and Epics (where the level isn't a choice), but I've already beaten Deity a few times (first time with the English [eek] ). Now with C3C I will gradually get to Deity and see if it's really harder.

But you have to agree with me : the 3 neighbours you gave me had weak positions. Rome was quite OK (but he didn't settle towards me [evil] ), but Portugual and Hittites had rather poor starts. Looking at the map of the continent (not already unveiled !), it seems you chose to give us (I assume Killer has the same) some good land protected by mountains, with AIs to crush easily. The thing is, I quickly settled beyond the mountain range. :D And so far I've never seen any Hittite chariots or Roman legionaries, and it's almost certain that I won't ever see any of those.

What I fear is a bloodfest on my continent. [estwing] (like this smiley :D :D :D )

Skyfish
19-02-2004, 14:51
Oh that smiley ? :D
Its Killer's smiley [lol], a geologist's hammer :D

ERIKK
25-02-2004, 10:23
update please!

Socrates
25-02-2004, 12:23
Hehe, not even a week to have a rest ?

You're right, I should update. But I just can't, because we almost didn't play those last days (only 11 more turns played). That's because of RL work, and also because of Killer's wish to end his ladder activities right now. Asked to choose immediately the result of this game for the ladder, I chose a default win, as can be seen in the ladder thread. Now we're gonna continue this game freely. Well, him at least. I want a victory, and will make everything to match the official outcome of this game. [cool]

Someone needs some serious [estwing] here !

Socrates
06-03-2004, 17:59
THE CONQUEST PHASE - PART ONE

My Golden Age had ended, and now it was really time to destroy my neighbours. I got Construction from the Library (Greeks and Killer) on turn 108 (390BC). I realized that I would surely not get many more techs that way, with all the AIs starting to vanish. But it was worth it, I got several techs for free, allowing me this swordsman upgrade. I met the Greeks, they established an embassy, and they gave me 55 gold for a RoP, needed to explore Killer's coast freely. I met the Dutch on turn 110 (350BC), and established an embassy with them to sign a RoP 2 turns later. Finally, I met the Incans on turn 115 (250BC), just as they lost their capital Cuzco to Killer (Colossus and Lighthouse). Portuguese also got Republic on turn 111 (330BC), but it won't help them in any way.

Meanwhile, the conquest phase was launched. Already at war with the Romans, I razed Rome on turn 110 (350BC) ; future city pattern was the main reason for razing. Next turn I killed a Roman spearman who managed to land on my only ivory source, and I had to do it with... a spearman !! [eek] Being quite lucky in this game too. I didn't want to lose my ancient cavalry production at any cost, and so took this risk. Antium (north of Rome) was razed on turn 113 (290BC), Cumae on turn 114 (270BC), Veii on turn 117 (210BC). At that point I had reached half of the world population. Nicomedia was founded on turn 114 (270BC), near the ruins that once were Rome. Hattusha, the pathetic Hittite city in the south-west, flipped to me on the turn 117 IT (210BC).

On turn 118 (190BC) Killer, the Greeks and the Dutch were in Anarchy, making their way to Republic at last. Killer got his new government next turn, being religious. I sank a 2nd Spanish curragh near the east island, I just love lethal bombardment. [goodjob] Those dromons are pretty useful, and they will still be useful for a long time.

I was also trying to seize the whole east island, and the 1st city on my way was Neapolis, the last Roman city, which I destroyed on turn 121 (130BC). And thus disappeared the fledgling Romans. [cool]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200436161558_kryszcztov-Killer21 130BC RomansDestroyed.JPG
78.52KB

Even hard micro-management can't be perfect, and next turn my capital rioted, probably due to the war happiness which was now gone ? Then, on turn 122 (110BC), the Oracle was eventually completed in Oporto, after dozens and dozens of turns ; the city was actually stucked at size 2... I welcomed the news, as getting as many wonders as I could was part of the plan. Amorium and Ancyra were founded on turn 123 (90BC), as war weariness started to strike, due to the war against the Portuguese.

I was still not researching anything, and on turn 124 (70BC) I acquired Currency from the Library ! I also captured Lagos, one of the three Portuguese cities in the northern peninsula. Killer then destroyed the Greek civilization. I knew I had to rush into this war... Well, I razed Lisbon (landlocked !!) and Emerita (on the east island) on turn 126 (30BC), and captured Oporto (Oracle) on turn 129 (30AD).

Razing was followed with settling, so were founded : Brusa (turn 125 - 50AD), Iconium (turn 126 - 30AD), Prilep (turn 129 - 30AD), Ohrid (turn 130 - 50AD). Killer got Polytheism on turn 126 (30AD), and so entered the Medieval Age. I didn't want to fund science again, and I found out I could get Polytheism in 4 turns and still make quite a lot of money, so I wasn't in a hurry. I wanted an AI to get it first ! :D So I started to help them : I gave Republic to the Incans for their 6 gold, and gifted them with Currency. They had one city left on Killer's east island, and I found out they would be helpless for me on turn 130 (50AD), when I established an embassy with them, signing a ROP too. On turn 128 (10AD) I also established an embassy with the Ducth, and gave them 2 gpt for their 32 gold, so as to help them researching. Pathetic moves...

It also occurred to me that both Killer and I shared the exactly same landmasses ; it will be interesting to compare both city patterns.

On turn 130 (50AD) Constantinople completed the Great Wall. One more wonder that Killer won't have, and it gave me walls in all little cities.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200436163725_kryszcztov-Killer22 50AD GreatWall.JPG
59.19KB

There is one reason I'm building wonders : I want to deprive Killer from a Golden Age !! [estwing] If he doesn't get it via his future conquistadors, he must self-build a wonder, and match his traits. Three wonders were built on his continent : the Colossus (seafearing), the Great Lighthouse (seafearing) and the Pyramids (religious). Once he has them all, he only needs to build one wonder. See the deal ? :D Another minor reason is that Constantinople has nothing to build except military units (but I already have what I want, and the City produces an ancient cavalry every 5 turns, so what are you asking for ?) and wonders. At size 12 (more or so), it's not like I'm wasting shields.

You can see it being built on the last wide screenshot, but I'd better quote the 1st reaction I got in this thread :

quote:Originally posted by Skyfish

Is that really a [eek] settler [eek] up there going North between Rome and Tarsus ?\

Where da hell is he going ?

Well, he just felt like building the Forbidden Palace !!! [goodjob] On turn 132 (90AD).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/20043616494_kryszcztov-Killer23 90AD ForbiddenPalace.JPG
63.16KB

It got me more gold and shields, and the 2nd core was still to be completed (and settled !). I decided it was time to research again, so I lighted the machine on, and sailed for Polytheism (4 turns at 30%, +46 gpt).

Socrates
12-03-2004, 19:48
THE CONQUEST PHASE - PART TWO

Just after building my FP, Killer declared war on the Dutch. It would be a matter of turns before he would get his hands on his whole continent... and the Pyramids. Well, for me too, it was war time again, and so on turn 133 (110AD) I declared war on the Hittites. Vidin was founded on that turn.

On turn 134 (130AD) I razed Ankuwa, on turn 135 (150AD) I razed Tyrana, as well as the last Portuguese town : Guimaraes. And thus were exiting the Portuguese, far from their mythic exploring stories.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004312181840_kryszcztov-Killer24 150AD PortugueseDestroyed.JPG
86.71KB

I eventually discovered Polytheism on turn 136 (170AD), entering the Middle Age. I got Engineering as my free tech. I decided to continue on 4-turn science research, so as to "control" Killer technologically speaking. Samosata was founded on that turn. On the IT, Killer captured Amsterdam (Pyramids), thus controlling his whole continent.

On turn 137 (190AD) I started to get tourism income in Adrianople, thanks to the Mausoleum. Both my strong cities (Constantinople & Adrianople) will eventually be flooded with tourism in the future. I decided to gift Incans and Dutch with Polytheism, since Killer knew it. I also razed Kadesh.

Then it accelerated again : the Hittite capital, Hattusas, was captured on turn 138 (210AD), and Tarsus (the new capital) on turn 139 (230AD). Aleppo (northern island) became the new Hittite capital. The F11 screen revealed this top 5 list : Constantinople (me), Adrianople (me), Madrid, Varna (me), Heraclea (me). [cool]

On turn 140 (250AD) I discovered Monotheism (first). On turn 141 (260AD), at last, the last enemy presence was destroyed from my continent, as Ugarit was razed (for resettling purpose). Not bad, only 5 turns after Killer ! Though I have some empty space in the north jungle to settle (soon to be)... but I have the whole east island too, whereas he hasn't put a foot on his island yet. [goodjob] Also, at last Spain as a civilization got more culture than Constantinople as a city ! [eek]

At that point, the Hittites have 2 cities in "my" north island, the Dutch have 2 cities in "his" north island, and the Incans have 2 cities in "his" east island. I count on the AIs to research Monarchy (Hanging Gardens). I also got all the ancient cavalries I should have got (the 8th one coming up next turn) ! :) These will surely be useful for defending the continent against Killer (or a dumb AI), they are free to build, what do you want, baby ? [coool] I also have 12 dromons, of which most are guarding my coasts. No need to speak of money, but I'd like someone to advise me the best use I could make of it ; this has always been a hard question for me... Rushing improvements in core cities, corrupted cities, island cities ? Keeping money for later deficit research ? All in all, Killer must do something now, as I can't see him take a tech lead pretty soon... Interesting...

Socrates
01-04-2004, 13:56
Well, Killer told me via MSN that he resigned for this game, as he couldn't find a realistic way to threaten me and win. Too bad, as I was enjoying the game very much, but at least I win one game ! :D

P.S. : Looking for Skyfish now... [crazyeye]

Socrates
02-04-2004, 01:52
OK, what a shitty joke, no one commented that ! [blush2] Of course it was an April's Fool joke !! :D The game is just stalled, but will start again soon, I hope. I apologize for being so little inspired here. The "Skyfish's P.S." was to indicate it was a joke (in French, we call this a "poisson d'avril", and you know what a "poisson" is ? Well, it's a fish... OK : I'm auto-banned from CDZ for one week, this is pathetic).

Socrates
15-04-2004, 21:14
THE CONTINENT IS MINE... MUST KEEP IT FROM BARBARIAN INVASION

Time for an update, as Killer and I finally started to play again.

I was filling the last spots on my continent with some last settlers, and so were eventually founded : Ani (turn 142 - 270AD), Edessa (turn 144 - 290AD), Taormina (turn 145 - 300AD) and Nouveau Constantinople (turn 148 - 330AD) ; I wonder how Killer's PC displays this name... I guess I'd rather not having him know that. ;) And so my continent was fully settled at last, with only a few tiles not in cities' radii. Here's a pic of the Empire at that time :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/2004415193054_kryszcztov-Killer25 330AD ContinentSettled.JPG
281.17KB

On a sidenote, the capital city reached 1000 culture points on turn 142, going at +21 cpt. In the science field, my plan was to "follow ahead" of Killer : everytime I would lose track of what he had in tech, I would start a 4-turn research program, so as to be ahead of him constantly. On turn 144 (290AD) I discovered Feudalism (which I gave to the Dutch for their 14 gold, and to the Incans for free, since Killer knew it). At this point, Killer didn't know Monotheism nor Engineering, 2 techs that I knew ; so I stopped researching, and started to earn a lot of gold, used for improvements in the cities that would soon be productive. On turn 147 (320AD) Killer had learnt Monotheism, and so it was time to search for Chivalry (discovered on turn 151 - 360AD) and Theology (on turn 155 - 400AD). There I stopped again. :) I stopped, but Killer knew the tech... But I stopped, more on that later.

Killer now had an army that was about my size. I started to wonder what he would do. I would soon know... On turn 154 (390AD) one of my dromon discovered this :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200441519472_kryszcztov-Killer26 390AD SpanishGalleys.JPG
62.44KB

Seven Spanish galleys, probably loaded with units ! [}:)] It was the 1st time I spotted this (my dromons kept on checking the ocean every turn). Killer on MSN obviously was about to do something... and then said like "well, nothing". I laughed, because I wasn't really prepared to deal with it, and that proved that I still had something to do about this constant "builder for builder" strategy I relied on for years and years against the AI. And so the sight of one dromon was probably enough to scare him : he probably withdrawed the stack of galleys... what I thought.

One turn later, I spotted 3 other galleys (there weren't veteran units, unlike the first ones) in the same place. The 3 galleys went to the south of my coast, and I eventually sank them (thanks to lethal bombardment). I was pretty sure Killer was diverting me, but I couldn't do much anyway, so I sank the damn boats. Remember his boats have 5 movement points !!! [eek] Without the Lighthouse (if it was my property), I wouldn't give much hope of him, so well, let's face it. On the turn 157 IT, Killer landed troops near Samosata (northern island city) and Hattusas (former Hittite capital). When I got the turn, I was mad that he would start to raze my lovely cities, and so I begged for a deal, which he accepted happily (I think) : until Killer is in the Industrial Age, I'm not allowed to land troops in his part of the world, while he isn't allowed to deliberately raze my cities. I like this deal because : I can spare some resettling, I have a lot more culture, and I will soon own the Temple of Artemis, which protects every city on the continent from autorazing. [goodjob] And moreover, I have no intention of invading him that soon. And so he captured Samosata, undefended. But I killed 3 maces in the north with my ancient cavalries. He was also sending more and more galleys to my land, using the north route. I was now mobilizing for war : pikemen were built and spearmen were upgraded.

I got 2 pleasant presents around that time :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200441520455_kryszcztov-Killer27 430AD KnightsTemplar.JPG
61.45KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200441520531_kryszcztov-Killer28 450AD TempleOfArtemis.JPG
67.36KB

I would now have 1 ancient cavalry and 1 crusader every 5 turns !! [goodjob] The purpose of stopping research is to let junk cities expand their borders once before discovering Education (which cancels the effects of the Temple). I know some people will say it was 500 shields for not much, but it was my project. I still hope for my 1st SGL in C3C ; I have enough of self-building wonders. [blush]

What I'm up to now is to kill every unit Killer sends at me, while still building improvements in secondary cities.

Pastorius
15-04-2004, 21:56
Damn this was a good read [goodjob]

anarres
15-04-2004, 21:58
So if you don't intend to attack soon it will be at least Tanks before you fight?

Socrates
15-04-2004, 22:13
Paalikles : and it's not over !! [goodjob] But I admit I write too much here, I spend too much time for this, and so in my other games, I'll write less. I guess not everyone wants to know the exact turn I founded my 27th city and so on... [blush]

Well, anarres, I didn't want Killer to start razing small cities one by one, that would drive me mad. So we very quickly ended up to this deal (my idea). Since I've never had the intention to invade him before the Industrial Era, this is all good for me. The only thing is that now, he can send all his troops to me (even spearmen)... Well come on, I'd say, gimme some leaders ! [cool] Anytime he'll capture a city of mine, I'll be able to hopefully recapture it. But I don't want to lose any more city now, of course.

So yes, it won't be before tanks... or never ? I can go for a space victory if I want... Can I even think of a 100k cultural victory ? His culture isn't a problem at the moment, but that would have required a SGL for the Temple of Artemis, which didn't occur. [ponder] I'm confident in my science output. Soon the empire will be filled with 100-shield universities... I've never reached this point in PBEM of course, so I don't know how I'll deal with the Industrial Era.

On a sidenote, Killer started to build the Sistine Chapel. So I guess I can't prevent him from having a Golden Age. Crushing the AIs so easily lead to too much work to achieve this anyway. And he's not far from conquistadors, with some Dutch or Incans next door, so...

I'm confident in this game, though I quite fear what Killer is up to... Still, I think time is on my side. :)

Socrates
27-05-2004, 18:06
A little note to say, that, due to personal reasons with Killer (nothing really important), this game is now dead.

My notes for the game :

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif kryszcztov-Killer.txt (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/kryszcztov/200452717533_kryszcztov-Killer.txt)
11.4KB

The game won't be resumed, and I make the spoiler "open".