CDZ petition

[Socrates]

Hello all of you PBEM freaks ! :D

Let's write it very simply, at present tense, like 8-year old children... I play PBEM with C3C 1.15b. There are a lot of bugs and a lot of things that can be better. Tavis is currently fixing many issues in the game. I don't like when games are bugged. I'm not "German" at all.

That leads me to this conclusion : let's sign a petition here, that we'll send to Tavis as the CDZ community and post at CFC. This thread is for you : come on post all those things you don't find right regarding PBEM. I know Dr. A tried to do that last year, but now C3C is out, and is in the middle of beta processing. So things have changed since last year. Only post C3C 1.15b bugs and stuff. I'll compile a list of those in this topic (next post).

Please clearly state the bug you found (explain).

Thanks all. [goodjob]

[Lt. Killer M]

there is ONE HUGE BUG - the possibility to load a PBEM game from single player and reveal the opponents map and units.

[anarres]

FWIW Tavis has recognised the SP load bug and has 'promised' me it will be fixed. Also, Player 1 will never get to see the 'missing' AI moves because of the game archetecture.

Compiling a list of the worst bugs is good, but I'm not sure how many bugs there are that apply to just PBEM.

[Grille]

Not a too severe 'bug', but a flaw that could be exploited on a large scale:

For a human player, it's possible to pay unreasonable large gpt sums to another human player. This is especially annoying in games with only humans (respectively team games -possibly 1 human play 2 civs-, and/or when one player has 'given up' and wants to subsidise one side).

Even if one player has not given up, he could pay some large gpt (say sum is 'X')to his friend, revolt (no deficit spending penalty during anarchy). The receiving player could pay lump sums and possibly give the tech(s) he got from running max research (he's rich as hell, of course and eventually could trade techs to others on top of that) to his donator when that one has a normal government running to avoid the deficit spending penalty. [The donator could also give gpt at 4000bc and join his worker to the 1. city (what would of course cripple his expansion) and run deficit w/o a visible penalty for the first 20 turns.]

Apart from a tech gain for the receiver during donator's anarchy (and -dependent trades with other civs), the total profit for both civs would be X*turns_in_anarchy.

[Socrates]

Thanks guys for "playing the game". Grille, I didn't entirely understood your thing, but it surely sounds stupid ; maybe other folks have heard of that, and also want this stupid feature to be removed. Too bad that player 1 won't ever see popups...

Time for the bugs I found. I'll try to only post those I'm sure are still in 1.15b.

Well first, PBEM games should start in 4000BC, not in 3950BC, when done by map makers. I think it must have been discussed already, but I don't understand why this exists.

Then there is something silly : player 1 can't see player 2's capital city in F11 as long as player 2's hasn't built any single cultural building in his capital. But player 2 can see his opponent's capital. This happens in PBEM, LAN, hotseat (all verified).

Another irritating thing : workers complete their tasks 1 turn faster than in solo. Don't be fooled, workers usually (in solo) complete their tasks on the last turn, meaning you get the bonus on the last turn. But here in PBEM (can't remember if it's the case in LAN and hotseat) you get the bonus 1 turn before that, but the worker can't directly move. So all in all, workers work as fast as in solo, but you get the bonus from tile improvement 1 turn earlier each time. It could be seen as cool, but I just don't get it, and I find myself thinking "Oh wait, this is PBEM, so I must micro-manage a different way !" Yes, irritating.

Those are all PBEM related bugs.

[anarres]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

Then there is something silly : player 1 can't see player 2's capital city in F11 as long as player 2's hasn't built any single cultural building in his capital. But player 2 can see his opponent's capital. This happens in PBEM, LAN, hotseat (all verified).This one I didn't know about! [:o]

[ProPain]

- When loading a pbem turn, the screen will center on the last players capital. This gives away the starting position of the previous player.

- Not really a bug but setting the actual player order as order in which players do their moves would be a great step forward. Now all human players go before the AI players which gives the no1 human player an advantage, even when the 2nd human player is numbered 5 for example. I would like to see ai 2,3,4 to do their moves before human player 5 in the last exampl. This would spread out the possible trade opps.

[Plux]

I find it quite annoying that loading PBEM saves always messes up my pref settings. I like to turn all animations off and have some other settings tweaked, but after loading up a game I must completely adjust them again [aargh]

[Socrates]

Another bug I was aware of, but wanted to be sure of as in C3C 1.15b.

In your capital city, when 20 turns have passed (1000 years), the Palace now gives you 2 cpt instead of 1. But there is a slight miscalculation on that very turn, and instead of having 20 culture points, you have 21. Then the culture pace goes fine. So all in all you have a 1 culture point bonus that doesn't have any effect at all (well, so little), but it just shows that there is something wrong. This is true in PBEM. In LAN and hotseat I think it doesn't occur but I'm not sure.

[Melifluous]

A couple of things that annoy me...

1) With a worker selected Shift-D for diplomacy doesn't work.

2) New wonders (ie new to C3C) do not appear in the Aerial View of a city.

Melifluous

[col]

quote:Originally posted by anarres

FWIW Tavis has recognised the SP load bug and has 'promised' me it will be fixed.


Looks like you've got your wish in 1.17. ;)

[Socrates]

Oh, is there a 1.17 coming up ?

BTW I had found another bug, well at least I think it's one. In 1 of my PBEMs at a point where only my capital city had a cultural improvement (palace), my total culture was 2 points above the capital's culture. It seemed to have appeared at some point in the game, and I think I'll have this 2-point culture bonus for the whole game. It didn't happen in the other game (now I won't tell which ones they are).

I can provide a save if wanted, and this was with 1.15b of course.

If no one has something to add, I could consider all of this our major request for PBEM, and send it to Tavis now.

What do you think ?

[anarres]

The culture difference is a well known bug and not related to PBEM specifically. What actually happens is on the last turn of anarchy (when you pick a new government) the civ-wide culture counter is increased but the individual city counts are not.

1.17 is a 'private beta', meaning Tavis doesn't want it to be released publicly (even as a beta). This is because of all the confusion that arose when they released the 1.15 beta. It has a partial fix to the PBEM loading problems.

1.18 is due to have a FULL FIX to the PBEM load bug, and it may even solve PP's first complaint of focusing on the enemy area at the start of turn (although this is not certain, and won't be until I see exactly what they have done).

The other culture-related bug you mention (1000 years bug) is far too trivial for Tavis to fix in the upcoming patches. Personally I agree - why spend even half a day fixing and testing that when they could be fixing begger things.

[Socrates]

Oh, this is a well- known bug ? Actually I've never seen it in solo but you must be right. But... don't say this that loud, I might be discovered !... [lol]

Well, minor fixes take less time I guess, so all in all, they could be fixed easily and quickly... I dunno.

Will 1.18 be the 1st public patch ?

Nobody is annoyed if I point Tavis to this thread at CDZ ?

[anarres]

I'm sure no-one will object to you sending Tavis a link to this thread, but the chances of him reading it all are probably slim. I would send direct the things you think are important, in a bulleted form that makes it easy to digest.

[Socrates]

Hello Tavis !

I PM you, because I have compiled a list of bugs and stuff that we'd like you to have a look at. Here it is, and we hope we'll soon hear from you.

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CDZ petition

This text file is for Tavis, it lists all the bugs we have found while playing PBEM in C3C 1.15b, that we think are PBEM-related bugs. We'd like them gone in the latest version of the game at most.

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Interface bugs :

- A player can load a PBEM game while in the middle of a single-player game, thus revealing the opponent's map and units. This should be gone soon, as promised, but it's THE important bug.

- All human players except the last one in the roster can't see pop-ups for wonder completion, diplomacy news and so on, as well as inter-turn fighting. It seems it will never be possible to change that, but if it's possible or something compensates for that, then that's good.

- On a 1v1 PBEM, hotseat or LAN (and that may extend to more human players), Player1 can't see player2's capital city in F11 as long as player2's hasn't built any single cultural building in his capital (unless there are too few cities in the world). This is a small annoyance that shows there is something flawed between different human players in PBEMs.

- When loading a PBEM turn, the screen will center on the last player's capital (even if in the fog). This gives away the starting position of the previous player.

- Preferences should be stored inside the player's preferences, not inside each game he plays. When switching to different games, it is quite annoying to have to re-adjust settings or be fooled by some we don't want.


Map making bugs :

- At CDZ, a PBEM site, some kind map makers draw maps for us. But unfortunately it appears that when they set up maps, Player1 can't play his turn 0 (4000BC). so they have to freeze other players' units in 4000BC to be fair, and let the game starts in 3950BC. AIs can do their turn, that's not that important, but annoying. Sometimes we put them on mountains so as they can settle in 3950BC as well. I think it's a minor bug that could be fixed quickly.


Playing bugs :

- In PBEMs workers complete their tasks 1 turn before than in single-player games, but they are freezed a whole turn after that. So all in all, workers don't do all their job faster, but we get the improvement bonus 1 turn before we should. For example, let's take a standard worker roading a plains tile ; that takes him 3 turns to do so ; in solo, 2 turns after he has been asked to work on such a task, he is still roading, and on next turn the road is done, he can immediately move, and the bonus is given to the player ; in PBEM, 2 turns after, the road will be done (units can use it), the bonus will already have been given to the player, but the worker can't move. This is very annoying when you want to micro-manage your game precisely, all the more when you switch from solo to PBEM. "Solo worker actions" should be the reference, and AIs should have the same (don't know if it's flawed for them).

- Setting the actual player order as the order in which players do their moves would be a great step forward. Now all human players go before the AI players, which gives human Player1 an advantage, even when human Player2 is numbered 5 for example. I would like to see AIs # 2, 3 and 4 do their moves before human Player5 in the last example. This would spread out the possible trade opportunities.

- In PBEM, on the turn the palace becomes a millenium building (ie. 20 turns have passed), we get an understanding 1-point culture bonus. Let's say the capital is founded in 4000BC ; in 3000BC the palace will now give 2 culture points per turn, which is the case ; but we have 21 points, not 20 as should be (19 on the previous turn). A very minor bug with very small effects, but if gone (might take 20 min to fix that ?), that would be nice. Don't know if that applies to other cultural buildings or moved palaces.

- In PBEM (don't know in solo games), on the turn you pick a new government (out of anarchy), the total culture counter is increased, but individual cities' counters aren't. This results in a slight malus for the players. Not an important bug, but still one that could be easily fixed.


On the whole, these are important and minor bugs, that we would like to see fixed for the final patch. We haven't tested every possibility, some bugs might apply to PBEM only, other ones to LAN and hotseat as well, but fixing stuff here may fix stuff there as well. Basically it would be also nice if PBEM, hotseat and LAN games were played exactly the same for easy switching from one mode to another (I'm not talking of multiplayer games here).

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Compiled by the members of Civ3DuelZone (CDZ).

Best regards,
the CDZ site :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/portal.asp
Administrators of the site : anarres & ProPain

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Thank you for reading and taking care.

kryszcztov, enthusiastic member of CDZ

[Irigy]

Sounds good to me (even though i have very limited exp.) [thumb2]

[Socrates]

PM sent to Tavis as written above ! :)

Let's hope to hear some good news in the next weeks...

[Socrates]

Nope, no good news.

It's now been one week since I sent this to Tavis via PM. But he hasn't opened it yet (PM tracking). [blush2] I hope he will read it someday. I hope the title doesn't upset him in any manner. Should I do anything ?

[Socrates]

Tavis hasn't read it so far. :( Maybe someone who is in touch with him in that secret forum (cf. patch 1.18) could give him this petition, in whatever form. Otherwise, if he doesn't read my PM, consider this topic dead. [blush2]

[Socrates]

Don't like to beat a dead horse, but this stuff is hopeless. Tavis is miles away from listening to me. If anyone here happens to be rather close to him now, well then if you can do something about it... Even though some issues are solved, there are other things inside. [blush]

[akots]

You were seriously thinking somebody at Firaxis would pay attention to this? They don't pay attention to some more serious bugs. What you are calling bugs is just a minor incoveniencies... On CFC, in 1.22 patch discussion thread somebody (SirPleb, I think but not so sure) said a couple of "warm greeting" to PBEM community appealing to ... you better read by yourself. Fortunately, they are not supposed to listen to this either.

[Socrates]

Ahem yes, I was thinking they would pay attention. Remember it was 2 months ago, when we thought a lot of stuff would be fixed (well, me at least). I read the important threads at CFC, and I see that something (loading old saves) was broken in order to please the PBEM community... Well, I'm sooo sorry. Forget this topic. [blush2]

[Stapel]

Krys,

Tavis will not listen to just any civfanatic. There are some, to whom he does listen. Maybe you should talk with one of them. Then you might find out that most of the mentioned bugs already have his attention.

[akots]

IMO very few people in Firaxis would listen to Tavis as well. Just giving up is not a good idea also. At least something was done.

[Socrates]

Mmmh, I use this topic just to say a little thing : from now on, I just don't care what happens to the patching process !! I have enough thinking of it, checking stuff every day, etc... I'll just take what is done and that's it. I also won't be in a hurry to upgrade. You can read a topic started by Chieftess at CFC (C3C bug forum), where it explains that AI MGLs seem to rush stuff.

LOL and over. [nuke]

[akots]

Guess it's a good idea to forget about the whole thing and just play the game. They'll get to 1.27 or 1.29 version of the patch and it might be finally as good as vanilla or PTW. It is worth thinking of Civ4 as well and what they might screw up there. They are writing the code from the scratch and may be PBEM would survive to that point if that's your concern. Or may be not. At least now it is confusing but playable.

[Socrates]

LOL !!! I barely check what happens at CFC now, and today I checked my PMs and there was an answer from Tavis, dated April 28th !! To my PM dated February 21st !!!

He just said : "thanks for the info - how are things working with v1.22?"

Maybe it was just to be kinda polite. I don't have much to answer, I only have one game running on 1.22. Well, I don't think I have something to answer to him.

[akots]

quote:Originally posted by kryszcztov

... He just said : "thanks for the info - how are things working with v1.22?" ...

Well, it might be a good idea to be as polite as Tavis replying something like "we are testing it now but since it is PBEM, it can take a while but we would surely let you know about it when we find out".

They are scared to death with all these CFC discussions because it looks like that lots of people come there and read stuff and tell their friends. Or may be just sales go up and down depending on that...