anarres vs. Markstar - Spoiler

[Markstar]

Alright, here it goes. I don't have too much time (actually spent more than I should have already), so I'll keep it brief:

Settings are Deity on a Tiny Map with only 20% land! [eek]
I take Iroquois and anarres Celts, which I confuse with Persia and results in a complete rethinking of my "strategy" at about turn 60, I think. Skyfish did our map and I asked for a cow near the capital. I just like to have not too bad start, I think the game is more fun that way (yes, yes, a bad start can be a nice challenge from time to time, I agree).

3400BC : Ahh, finally meeting anarres (it had to happen sooner or later on literally tiny map as this one). I suspect he is located north, but that remains to be seen... Also, settler moves to spices to secure that luxury.
So this is how the world looks so far after a couple of turns (we moved pretty quickly in the beginning). I marked the spots that I had in mind for potential cities:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200421221356_3400BC sm.jpg
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2110BC : Settling almost over, will begin with building up my military...
1225BC : Attacking of the Greeks begins. Also I have a pretty good idea by now where everybody is. It looks I'm not the only one who has his neighbour awefully close. :)

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200421221934_1225BC sm.jpg
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1125BC : anarres took a Leptis Magna, he must be at war as well then.
1025BC : A leader! Mmh, don't really have any good wonder choices, will use it to build the FP in Athens. Also took Pharsalos by now.
around 925BC : Anarres says that my newly captured city Delphi is to close to his borders, also, he want to raize Thermopyl.
875BC : Captured Thermophyle and of course want to keep it. Anarres is about to start a war anyways, so I might as well keep at least one city. Plus, he might lose some good units on the way. It turns out I can barely fight of his units. [shoot]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200421222641_875BC.jpg
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730BC : Golden Age ends. [cry] It looks to me that anarres is offering peace, so I accept it. Later I find out that it is a bug (I should have known from Tiny Chaos, where something similar happened). [wallbash] Anyways, I hope this gives me enough time to build up my military for anarres attack.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200421223352_730BC sm.jpg
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710BC : Start sending ships with MW out to get a piece of Carthage (Polytheism, Currency, Contruction). Hopefully he'll gift me something when he is surrounded.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200421223444_710BC sm.jpg
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430BC : Only us 2 now... diff: 152. The "getting-some-techs-from-Carthage" strategy didn't work btw. Anarres finished them off pretty quickly but I was able to trade some techs anyways (gave Republic + cash for Currency & Contruction).

[Markstar]

Recent events (less than 2 hrs):

310BC : Peace time is offer and anarres is coming at me with what seems like (I hope) full force. [eek]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20042122526_310BC.jpg
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My Mounted Warriors fight extremly brave. [hammer]
Actually the selected unit (elite MW) will create a leader and I use it to rush Sun Tzu's Art of War. [cool] I lost only 5 units out of almost 30 fights, not bad, I think, I was afraid of much higher casulties.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20042123124_310BC after.jpg
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Now anarres will under no circumstances be able to take Thermophylae next round. He will however take Knossos, but it's a remote city anyways and I needed the units do defend Thermophylae. This can become a costly victory if he decides to go after my lonely MW's outside of the city. [B)]
Also, if he destroys the road he is on right now, I'll have a hard time getting to him in the future. But I have something else planned, so not all should be lost then. [rocket] Plus, I'm ahead of tech, as you can see I have Feudalism and I'm on Monotheism right now. Will take some time, though... But anarres is still doesn't have Construction, so I hope he will be behind for the time being.

Alright, that's it for now, will keep you informed if you are not the only one reading this right now. [slanteye]

[digger760]

good report markstar.

Struth!!! this game has gone by fast, you guys dont muck around. A fast game documented by both players makes for good reading [goodjob]

[Markstar]

Thanks Digger.

I'd like to add that I wrote this spoiler while I was waiting for a turn from anarres (plus I couldn't sleep).

So what I did is that I loaded up old saves to take some screenshots (because I forgot to take them at the time I played them, of course). This is also the reason why there won't be a spoiler on TC, unless I'd start with the timeline now...

Actually I did remember to take screenshots before the last battle, but forgot to take them afterwards, so I loaded the game up through SP. I hope that's not too bad, I will try to avoid that in the future but in was late and I'm still pretty new at this. [blush2]

[digger760]

quote:Originally posted by Markstar

Thanks Digger.
Actually I did remember to take screenshots before the last battle, but forgot to take them afterwards, so I loaded the game up through SP. I hope that's not too bad, I will try to avoid that in the future but in was late and I'm still pretty new at this. [blush2]



EDIT: But going back over old savs to get screen shots is perfectly acceptable.

EDIT2: Just incase you did'nt know:
Loading a game from a single player game is a no-no, because it circumnavigates the password feature. I forget if it loads to your turn first or the next player on, but if you reload again if definiatly gets you to the next player.

I think most people here know about it and its an honour system.

digger760

[ProPain]

Exciting game and your spoiler is a good read too! I'll keep a keen eye on this game.

[col]

its OK to use the main menu to load old saves that were sent to you to capture screenies. The bug is to load a game while youre a playing a SP game. It allows you to look at your opponent's position.

[Markstar]

Well, I couldn't see any of anarres' positions, the game loads just as if I played it SP.

Otherwise I'd never have done that. All you need to do is to load the save you are sending. At least that works for me. That way I finished some of the PBEMs where people quit on me. [aargh]

I absolutly think that loading a game where you would have ANY kind of advantage is absolutly out of the question.

[col]

I must say I'm very impressed so far - looks like you're going to take out Anarres in your first game!

[Markstar]

Hold on there. This is far from over.

He has a serious potential production center going there (potential because I don't think he uses it to the full extend right now). He's got more area covered and also a fast UU (yes, I do, too).

Here's a picture to illustrate my point:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200422215939_Prodview.jpg
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All the marked "squares" have bonus food/production. Yes, there are plains, not grassland, but it still makes one hell of an area.

Plus, I made a stupid mistake right now, attacking (and killing) 2 spearmen, but I let 2 Pikemen and and 3 MWs get killed in the counterattack. It was not very wise and I should have know before. All anarres needs to do is find a weak spot and exploit it...

[Beam]

quote:All anarres needs to do is find a weak spot and exploit it...

Replace anarres with Markstar and give it a go. Great play btw!

[Markstar]

Mmh, I'm working on it. But first I need to get my units up to the strength where I can launch a potential "sneak attack" AND be able to defend myself against an attack from anarres.
Actually I thought that with Pikemen, I'd be able to counter his Gallic Swordsmen. But it seems that they are a pretty easy kill (he attacked with 3 GS, the 1st withdrew and the other two killed my 2 Pikemen). [cry]

I know he has at least 8 GS on the field. My forces are reduced to under 20 MWs, so I'll have to be careful.

Anarres told me that it's time now to also spent more time on the other games he's playing, so basically I don't have much to do right now since the game vs Killer hasn't started yet. [sleep]

[ProPain]

How's the tech situation? if you can build knights soon you can do some serious damage. You can upgrade your MW's to knights which is an improvement, but anarres'upgrade path is more dubious. Upgrading to med inf loses a movement point and thus retreat ability. Building knights from scratch will take time and quite some shields. So if you're ahead on tech or not to far behind I'd say build MW's and save up, upgrade and see how your army compares to anarres' then.

[Beam]

Are you sure the GS upgrades to Med. Inf? The Dutch SM for example does not upgrade to Muskets but to Rifle's iirc. Worth checking anyway.

[ProPain]

I checked in the civilopedia but it's not clear. It doesnt state an upgrade path for GS so that would imply you cant upgrade them. But when I checked Riders it didnt have an upgrade to cav in the civilopedia either and I 100% sure they upgrade to cav. Checked MW and in civilopedia they have an upgrade to knights.

So civilopedia isn't much help

BUt also if they don't upgrade to med inf, knights over GS is also an advantage. GS have 3 attack, knight have 3 defense, 50% chance. Knights against GS is 4 over 2 so you have a 67% chance of winning. If you manage to have first strike at anarres with knights you can do some damage I'd say.

[col]

I'm pretty sure GS upgrade to MI - like all other swordsmen do. There was a lot of discussion about whether this was an improvment at all and iirc they made it so you can always build your UU even in modern times.

[Markstar]

I have 7 more turns to go for Monotheism, then comes Chivalry, of course. Anarres doesn't have Construction yet, so he is a little behind. [cool]

But there are a couple of things, ProPain:
1) Anarres is not going to upgrade do Med. Inf., even if he can. They'd be much more vulnerable against my MWs/Knights. The additional firepower doesn't get him anywhere because I can retreat and, of course, because I won't even let his potential Med. Inf. close to any of my cities. This is, btw, the same problem you have in Tiny Chaos. [crazyeye]
2) Obviously I'm going for Knights asap, but the thing is, it will cost 80 gold to upgrade. That is rather expensive and I won't be able to upgrade them all at once. But I can't wait until I upgraded them all, because even with 3 def, by the time I'm finally ready anarres will be able to take out too many knights with his GS he had been building in the meantime. Keep in mind, he has more productivity now.

As a result I have to think of something else (I do have something on my mind) and we will see if it is going to work.

Oh, one more thing - I want to do more than some damage. [satan]

[ProPain]

Then go for entremont from thermopylae and raze it!

[Markstar]

I don't think I have the ressources to do that already. As I said, he's got AT LEAST 8 GS, so I need 10 units which can be attacked (and which I have to account for as lost before even 'firing' a single shot), plus another (at least) 20 MWs to take the city (who knows how many Spearmen he got there in addition to the GS). Don't have that right now and I don't think it would be such a good idea anyways at this moment.

If I were to attack and not raze it in the first attempt, I'd lose my whole army. That's a risk I'm just not willing to take. [nono]

No turn today :(, but I will take some action pretty soon, don't worry. Though it certainly won't be Thermophylae.

[Markstar]

Oh, and I just noticed that the description for the Longbowman is:
"Longbowmen are excellent attackers in the ancient era."

ANCIENT??? [hmm]

[Markstar]

Last night anarres attacked AND RAZED [eek] Mauch Chunk and Pharsalos. He came over with five ships (as you probably know from his spoiler) and landed 10 GS. Of course I had not nearly enough troops nearby so I decided not to confront him and instead get my troops together so I would be able to wipe his troops out in one swift move.

Here you see the units he landed as well as my units in Thermopylae (where pretty much all of my units where at the time) (date is 130BC):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427161741_130BC.jpg
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However, I made a HUGE mistake by underestimating how far he could get his troops in one turn (actually I still don't get it). So he razed the 2 cities (only Pharsalos hurts a little, had no improvements in it, though). Then he landend on the mountain near my city where I have the my FP (don't remember the name right now and since I'm at the university right now, I'll add the name later, as well some pictures). So he's had 4 GS sitting comfortable on that mountain from where he can attack 2 cities, with I think 4 more to come. And all of this because of my stupidity!!! :(

Here two pics of the dilemma (one from the landing and the other one from the turn after):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427162112_Mistakea.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427162210_Mistakeb.jpg
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I put 5 units in each city that is in his reach (Athens and Tonawanda), so he couldn't take the city (since he has only 4 GS), but enough waiting to get him when he's coming down. Mmh, 10 artilleries would have been nice right now. [:p] That way I had to count at least four untis as lost, plus the ones I'm losing in the attack.

Which is what happened. He came down with his for, landed another 4 on the mountain. I killed of the ones near my cities (lost 2 MWs [sad]) and put the mininum number of 5 units in both cities again. Of course this really sucks since those troops are needed somewhere else!!!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427162314_90BC.jpg
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I told you before, I had formed a plan, which I was about to execute when anarres attack began. The plan was not to attack him with all my forces, but get his units spread and him a little scared. I retook Knossos and placed my units near the mountain next to his other city.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427162425_130BC b.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427162456_110BC.jpg
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But what I didn't expect was that his forces seem to be spread really thin, since I saw that his one coastal city didn't have any troops in it. Too bad I don't have enough troops! Anyways, I decided that I would use my troops that I had stacked up for an attack coming from Thermophylae against exactly that city (as ProPain suggested earlier, but I still think it would have been a bad idea at that point).

Here you see what I saw when going for Knossos. Only at that point I had some kind of proof that he could be running out of units:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20042716400_Thin Units 130BC.jpg
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I seriously hope that by now he has most of his troops in ships and on that mountain [mischief] or near Knossos so he won't fry my troops right away. If he does, I'm screwed, btw.

That is how thing are right now, as I said, I'll edit this thread when I'm home, so you have some better understanding what's going on.

But it looks like things are going to be over pretty soon.

Also coming up: Killer vs Markstar Spoiler. There you will read how Killer formed an alliance to get me into war and thought that this would somehow be bad for me... [mwaha]

[Plux]

Some pics would be nice because indeed I do not really understand what your plan would have been about :D

[anarres]

Congrats Markstar! [party]

I was overwhelmed at the end. I had very good long-term prospects but blew it by attacking when I should have been defending. A great game, and our next is to be in Conquests!

[Markstar]

This is how it ended. I killed of the 4 GS near Athens, and attacked Entremont. I was horrified discovering that anarres had developed Feudalism, which meant that I had to face Pikemen now.
I was also making some progress in the east, taking Hippo and then went for Agedincum.

Before the attack:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/20042717498_Enda.jpg
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Afterwards (picture taken through SP):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427175025_Endb.jpg
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And then it was over. [smokin]

[Markstar]

After reading anarres' spoiler, I learned that people see it as a huge mistake that I didn't attack the first time when I had the chance.

Well, even now, I don't think it was the wrong decision, for the same reasons I stated before:
Yes, I killed many of his units. BUT, he was able to kill 16 of my MWs, getting from 34 down to 19. And he survived had at least 8 GS left! Plus, at that point I had to assume that he would have more units somewhere that he could have pulled to Entremont. By the time I had gotten close to Entremont, he would have healed them, being able to kill at least 6 of them. That leaves about 10 MWs for me (I didn't have all 19 there yet). How was I supposed to take Entromont with 10 MWs??? No way.

Here are two pictures to illustrate my point:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427181633_AfterAttack1.jpg
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http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Markstar/200427181710_AfterAttack2.jpg
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I simply couldn't raise the amount of troops at that point. Had I lost my MWs, I would have been totally defenseless.

Why I waited? Because I was way ahead in tech, so I was pretty close to have Knights. And then attacking Entremont would have been a whole other issue... [evil]

Anyways, game over. Thanks to anarres I am able to play C3C 1.15 now, but I have to get into shape first, so it will take a little while. Plus, I have exams coming up, so I'm pretty busy (gosh, those spoiler threads take up a lot of time).

[digger760]

They take up time, but, i think it was well worth it. That Game ranks in the top 5 that I have read on CDZ so far. Well Done Markstar.

[Matrix]

Congratulations, Markstar. ;)

Great reports!

[Markstar]

Thanks guys! [yeah]