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View Full Version : Is it fair to demand silence when you go to bed?


anarres
31-03-2003, 15:21
I have a question about acceptable behavior when living in the same house as someone else.

I have 2 lodgers in my house, both friends of mine from before they moved in.

Lodger 'A' is nice enough most of the time, but when he is drunk you want to smack him hard in the face [B)] (and I am a pacifist!). Lodger A works as an EFL teacher (English as a foreign language).

Loder 'B' is a hippie. He is a very nice person, a bit of a metal-freak, jobless and a part-time student.

All seemed to be OK, until recently Lodger A started having problems sleeping. It appears now that unless he has TOTAL silence he can not sleep at all. I personally think it is related to his drinking problems, now that he has cut back on his drinking substantially.

Lodger B (being unemployed, and a bit unusual in his habits anyway) likes to play his guitar at all times of the day and night. Being aware that Lodger A is a light sleeper both Lodger B and myself go to great lengths not to make much noise at night (sometimes Lodger A goes to bed at 11pm!!). Lodger B now plays his guitar though headphones so that Lodger A won't hear him.

This may have just been about workable, except that now Lodger A claims not to be able to sleep even when Lodger B is playing his guitar in his bedroom, with his door closed and his headphones on! Lodger B has been told he can play his guitar through headphones, but only downstairs. I am also not allowed the TV on in my bedroom above whispering level, and if I want to talk to Lodger B late at night we must either whisper or go downstairs.

I am really pissed off about this. I know Lodger A has to get sleep for work, but I don't believe that requiring TOTAL silence is normal. Also, he is really rude if you keep him awake. Instead of telling you 5 minutes after getting in to bed, he lies there for an hour, then gets up and shouts insults at the top of his voice.

So, my question is:

Is it reasonable to expect total and utter silence when you go to bed, taking in to account that different people in the house may be awake for another 4 or 5 hours after you go to bed?

ERIKK
31-03-2003, 15:29
I really feel sorry for lodger A, having to live with two nightcrawlers! :D

But serious: this guy should face the facts! He cannot demand total silence so have him buy some 'ear-dops'!

Shabbaman
31-03-2003, 15:32
Hippies, burn them all[:p]

No, seriously. Until recent I lived in a house with 3 others, 2 of them students, 1 of them a junkie in rehab. Apparently, some people lack every form of self control. One would suspect that there's a certain degree of social skill in every one of us, but that's simply not true.
Living with other people is always difficult if you're in a different (bio)rythm. Among students, this comes forth quite clear. For 'civilians', you'd expect that people try to go to bed approximately on the same time. In your case, you should point out to your inmate what he'd do if he'd live next to the railroad track.

Hell, he shouldn't even complain: if he isn't bothered with sounds from outside the house, he's statistically one in thousand, so he's pretty lucky... Buy him ear plugs.

Shabbaman
31-03-2003, 15:32
Hmmm, Erik beat me to it... I think 'ear dop' isn't english though [:p]

anarres
31-03-2003, 15:33
The most stupid thing of all is that Lodger A refuses to believe that he is abmormal in this respect! I have offered to buy him earplugs but he just laughs at me as though I am joking...

Shabbaman
31-03-2003, 15:33
I know a lot of students who are actually sleeping with ear plugs.

Melifluous
31-03-2003, 15:35
Ah Lodger, what a lovely word huh?

Did this imply that you indeed have some control over their use of the house?

If it does kick the ungrateful fuck outta your house? Telling YOU what to do in YOUR house? See how fucking quiet it is under a fucking railway bridge?

Tosser.

If he was halfway decent (sorry guys, kinda getting a bit loud, could you chill a bit please) or prepared to compromise I would be a bit fairer on him.

Kick him out, get some tasty bird in...

Melifluous

ERIKK
31-03-2003, 15:37
quote:Originally posted by anarres

The most stupid thing of all is that Lodger A refuses to believe that he is abmormal in this respect! I have offered to buy him earplugs but he just laughs at me as though I am joking...
Well, if he means that must of the working people go to bed around 11 o'clock he is probably right I guess...

But the rules for living together are to be made by the people who live together IMO! You guys should make some houserules to avoid fights.

Kevinicus
31-03-2003, 15:56
You should respect his boundries and him yours. If you can't then you have a problem D::::

Shabbaman
31-03-2003, 16:00
BTW, you musn't underestimate how sounds are perchieved whilst attempting to sleep. When you're lying in bed most sounds are louder than they actually are (well, of course they are not, but that's how you 'hear' it). I think that guitar can be extremely noisy.

(and annoying, one of my former 'lodgers' played guitar)

Anyway, "It appears now that unless he has TOTAL silence he can not sleep at all." points to some serious psychic deviation. You could be right about the alcohol part, it might be some cold turkey effect. He probably didn't go to bed sober in years...

I'm with meli on the bird argument.

anarres
31-03-2003, 16:26
Some more facts:

When I said he was abnormal, I was refering to the level of noise that he finds acceptable (i.e. NONE).

I own the house.

Lodger A was the last person to move in, he may not have known we are both night owls, but at the time he made no requests about requiring total silence when he goes to bed.

Regarding 'House' rules, we have very few, except that you clean up after yourself and respect the other people living there. This is OK for 95% of situations, but I am not going to make a million and one rules about every little thing in advance, just on the offchance they come up.

Regarding 'Respecting Boundaries', I suppose it all comes down to what is a reasonable boundary. Is it reasonable for Lodger A to say his boundary is total silence after 11pm? Is he respecting our boundaries by asking us to significantly change our lives to meet his (unusual) requirements?

If it isn't obvious, I am deciding whether or not to ask him to leave.

Shabbaman
31-03-2003, 16:37
No sound at all isn't reasonable. As I view it, if I don't make noise, the neighbours will. You can't find a home without the occasional noise (as in, sound).

Ask him to adapt, for his own interest. You're actually willing to compromise with him, he's a lucky man. He won't find a quiet place that easily (I'm assuming it's not better in the UK than it's over here)...

Melifluous
31-03-2003, 16:46
Melifluous appears, points repeatedly to his previous post, rubs out the rude words and crafts around it a wonderfully evocative and persuasive arguement which encompasses his thoughts on the matter. Pours the whole thing into the factional distillation machine and it emerges shiny and new, gleaming with import and beauty.

1). Your House.
2). Man (not wife) telling you what to do in it
3). Explain that you cannot be dictated to in your own house
4). Kick him out

Addendum: Get fit bird in

Melifluous

PS. Just cos its flippant dont mean it aint right

anarres
31-03-2003, 17:04
I heard you first time mel, and bottom line is that I can kick him out my house.

The question is whether or not he is being reasonable in his complaints.

Regarding 'fit bird' remark, I agree, it was luck (or lack thereof) that landed me with two blokes. I think that in 2 years I have had 3 women and 4 blokes. It was a much nicer house when I was living with 2 fit women! :(

col
31-03-2003, 17:15
Lodger A works as a ... teacher. Theres your problem.

Ok - after a few months we all go crazy. He cant stand it at work any more and needs a little peace and quiet.

Sounds like he's about to breakdown in a big way. Seen it happen to people several times. Found a friend of mine curled up into a ball and she syateyed that way for several days. Found another who just couldnt leave the house for several weeks....

The not being able to sleep bit is a symptom of a LOT of stress and not good. Suggest he seeks medical help URGENTLY.

ProPain
31-03-2003, 17:24
IMO asking utter silence after 11pm is NOT reasonable. Usually you have noises from outside your house after 11pm any way. I lived next to Rotterdam Railway Station for 2 years, now I have neighbours with very young children who sometimes cry at night. Noises and sounds after 11pm are a fact of life. I think your roommate's request is unreasonable, and if things really bother him so much he should find an appartment of his own.

Also I think you both are making a more than reasonable effort to keep silent already. Reasonability should be a two-way street IMO, earplugs or move.

And of course, next time go for the young, great looking, horny, single blond.

Shabbaman
31-03-2003, 19:20
quote:Originally posted by ProPain

I lived next to Rotterdam Railway Station for 2 years[/b]


In the ghetto... And his mother cried... In the ghetto...

And still you're a PSV supporter?

BTW, sounds like Col's speaking from experience. Maybe you should point out to lodger A that it isn't really natural. Sort of a last chance before you kick him out (since I take it that you do like him besides his whining...)

ERIKK
31-03-2003, 20:56
quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman
And still you're a PSV supporter?
Oh no!!! He is lost for life!!!

Anyway, if lodger A has problems at work, it would be rude to kick him out because the symptons of his problems annoy you!

Anarres, you are one rich anarchist if you own a house and are able to rent room to two other persons!!! :D LOL :D :p

anarres
31-03-2003, 21:32
Actually, I am a poor anarchist, but a happy one. :)

I was earning a lot of money 2 years ago, and I managed to get a morgage 4 times my salary. I bought a 3 bed terraced house and I make enough from 2 lodgers to make my rent only a bit more expensive than renting a room in a shared house. I now earn £6000 less, but I can still afford my house. When I was made redundant for 6 months I nearly lost everything, but somehow managed to scrape though gaining an extra £2000 of debt.

I can confidentally say that my Lodger A is not suffering from any work related problems. He enjoys his job very much, and he is quitting in the summer to live and teach abroad. Every 6-12 months he will move somewhere else in Europe, teching and having fun. Bottom line is that he is not stressed from work. Both my parents are teachers, and I am aware of the associated issues that can go with it.

He does have alcohol related issues though. A close friend of mine was an alcoholic, I have lived with them before. Although I wouldn't call him classically alcoholic he definitly has issues, which I have tried to talk to him about with limited success. It probably is his alcohol issues that he is finding it difficult to get to sleep, but I don't think it is a short term thing.

At the end of the day I feel no guilt over throwing him out if we can't live together in peace, maintaining the status quo will help no one.

ERIKK
31-03-2003, 21:40
Wow! 6000 pounds. Before taxes I suppose... But then again you live an a city that is brutally expensive from what I have heard! Also having roommates is fun. I lived with a roommate in innercity-Amsterdam when I was a student and it was fun (for 4 years)!!!

ERIKK
31-03-2003, 22:01
hmmm...

I guess a roommate is something different than a lodger btw...

Sween
01-04-2003, 01:41
I like a little noise. I need the sound of a fan and a radio to fall asleep. I can actually SLEEP thru loud noises like yelling and banging, but there is no way i can FALL asleep with it going on.

i used to live in an apartment in a large old house. nice big room, private bathroom and shower, had my own little homemade kitchen (forman grill, etc) and i loved it. complete privacy. i had to move into another house with the other people who lived in the house because the owner was turning that one into a bed and breakfast. one of them has his gf over every single night and all they do is fight. and she is SO loud. i can't wait until they get kicked out.

Lt. Killer M
01-04-2003, 08:03
anarres: taking into account how thin walls are in the UK compared to what i am used to, I WOULD say the TV can easily be a problem for light sleepers. Talking - well, there's people that talk rather loudly (and languages that tend to make you do so) and there's others....... But forcing people to whisper and not being able to sleep when someone already uses headphones for the guitar msounds to me a bit like it is TOO QUIET otherwise. The guy enjoys perfect silence except for you two, that's why you disturb him so much.

Tell him to ask a doctor - a good one. He must learn to sleep with less than perfect conditions if he every really wants to move around Europe - who knows where he will be sleeping then?


Basically, tell him to fuck off if he keeps on whining.

Shabbaman
01-04-2003, 11:37
quote:Originally posted by ERIKK

hmmm...

I guess a roommate is something different than a lodger btw...


I guess you're meaning 'huisgenoot'. You could translate that as 'inmate', although that sounds really dirty...

ERIKK
01-04-2003, 11:41
quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

quote:Originally posted by ERIKK

hmmm...

I guess a roommate is something different than a lodger btw...


I guess you're meaning 'huisgenoot'. You could translate that as 'inmate', although that sounds really dirty...
Yeah, we shared an appartment for several years, which means you share everything and are basicaly living together... This is not the case with a lodger I suppose...

Lt. Killer M
02-04-2003, 07:50
ah, with all the english experts around, can someone tell me which English word to use for someone like this:

we live in 1 appartment
we share bathroom
kitchen
cellar
balcony

we do NOT share the same livingroom
bedroom
groceries

roommate? No, Americans will think os campus doorms where two people share the same (bed)room.
lodger? No, we both pay part of the rent. And what if we are 6 poeple who share a 6 room appartment?????


HELP!!!!!

Shabbaman
02-04-2003, 09:15
My dictionary tells me it should be 'inmate'. But that sounds way to 'intimate'.

col
02-04-2003, 09:20
I'd use flatmate or housemate.

Inmate is used for folk in prison and would never be used here.

Shabbaman
02-04-2003, 09:36
:)

Lt. Killer M
02-04-2003, 11:39
Shabba: inmate = prison inmate ==> unacceptable :( but thanx

smalltalk
09-04-2003, 23:12
Both me and my flatmate are musicians, so I know of similiar problems between the two of us or between us and the rest of the house. Luckily the times when he came home at 5am with a after-party crowd are over. Still, it is hard sometimes when he is working on new stuff. I guess the same holds true for me. Music-in-progress is hard to listen to for bystanders over 6 hours length.

If it really gets too hard for me, I sometimes leave the flat and go out. On the other hand, this is mostly at daytime or before midnight and he will turn down the volume, if asked to. As I will, when asked by neighbors, which happened once or twice.

But I can't see (or rather hear), how headphones could be so loud to be disturbing. Nor the voices of nice people nor the rain hammering on the window nor the wind in the trees. As others have said I sometimes put on a record before going to sleep and am lullabied by my favourite songs ...

(Now talk about city noises).

Also, I can't see, how alcohol is playing a role in here. People usually sleep better when drunk. [sleep]

ProPain
10-04-2003, 00:12
if I understand Anarres correctly he's not sleeping because he quit drinking

smalltalk
10-04-2003, 00:29
@ProPain: rereading the previous posts, I guess you understood right and I understood wrong.

(I don't know of lodger A, so I really can't make a valid statemant, but): I wonder, if not drinking would make me upset by TV or headphone noise, I'd rather start drinking again.

anarres
23-05-2003, 22:30
hehe, I solved the problem.

The twat who can't sleep is moving out tomorrow! [dance]

In the end I just told him it wasn't going to work. He found a place (another friend) within a couple of weeks.

Skyfish
23-05-2003, 23:43
Nice one !
Congrats anarres ! Big time party at your place for the good news !
Shabba will spin some hardcore techno all night long and ProPain will invite his Butcher friends band !
:)
Give us the adress mate ?

Shabbaman
24-05-2003, 12:18
Yeah, good plan [:p]