View Full Version : C3C 1.15 BETA ;)
Tavis announced a new beta patch at CFC a few hours ago. This are the features:
"BETA PATCH! Public Release will not be until the end of February so if you aren't interested in reviewing it please do not use it!
Make a backup of your original Civ3Conquests.exe, jgl.dll, and text\labels.txt
REQUIRES V1.12 - RECOMMENDED THAT YOU HAVE V1.13 TOO
Items for v1.15 BETA (1/12/04):
* Corruption was set by Soren to meet his design. The Palace is the only Corruption Free Civ Center. All other cities are affected by their distance from the palace, WLTK Day, Governments, Corruption Reducing Buildings, Corruption Policeman, and the # of cities in your empire. Courthouse effects inscreased from 5% to 10%.
* Updated AI Strategies in Conquests: Mesopotamia - Galley (Naval Power), Enkidu Warrior (Offense), Rise of Rome - All legions (Defense OFF), MesoAmerica - Acali & Great Acali (Acali:Unload/Upgrade & Naval Transport, Great Acali (Upgrade Unit OFF), Age of Discovery - Javelin Thrower (Offense), Missionary (Capture, Offense), WWII Pacific - Fighter Bomber (Bombard!)
* Fixed Random Civ MP Launch OOS
* Secret Police HQ no longer gives effects corruption OR OCN bonus when player leaves Communism. Fixed error with Government required buildings not turning off.
* Updated Civilopedia.txt Forbidden Palace to explain that all cities are still affected by distance from the Real Capital.
* Updated Civilopedia
* Updated PediaIcons.txt
* Fixed Credit Typos"
This more and more looks like what anarres wanted, am I right about that? :)
So FP now affects only distance from capital again? bleech, I liked the solution with effects of a bit of a second core and a bit of how it works now.
Indeed Plux, that appears to be a major difference compared to 1.13
Can someone please test the PBEM-SP load bug in this patch? I am at work and can't do it yet.
Tavis is persoanlly aware of this bug now and promised to fix it, the only question is if we told him in time for this patch (which is unlikely, but I'd like to know).
I think its in the 'issues I havent had time to fix yet list'
Ah, thus the only effect the FP has is the increase of the ONC?
The FP doesn't even decrease its own corruption, if I get this right!
I do understand the AI will be able to handle this (as there is nothing to handle), but for archipelago maps, a fine game feature has gone.
Also, you can build the FP at a random city.
Once again a fine example of 'fix by disable', a very popular instrument among software developers.
As they did not manage to develop an AI-handable FP, they solved this problem by removing some features.
Not the most elegant way, to put it mildly.
Stapel,
Distance corruption is measured from the nearest palace, so the FP acts as a corruption reducing measure still (and also the FP corruption is max. 30%). Soren has stated that this is how he always wanted corruption to work.
Ok, so it still is a bad idea to to build the FP in your capital? Good, I thought it only affected distance corruption, but it's some sort of a courthouse as well. Me likey :)
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
Once again a fine example of 'fix by disable', a very popular instrument among software developers.
As they did not manage to develop an AI-handable FP, they solved this problem by removing some features.
Not the most elegant way, to put it mildly.
I have the very strong impression that Firaxis is working very hard to make this a better playable product! Just look at all the feedback they ask and what they do with it. Remember that a significant part of the community actually DOES like the FP effect as it is now, with reason.
I know loads of companies that aren't this receptive to suggestions from the client. Remember that this product got very good reviews that imho influence the common civ player (to buy it) more than sites as CFC.
Futhermore I have even more respect for their efforts when you look at the terrible state that Atari is in. I wouldn't be very motivated in such an atmosphere (in fact I AM in that position myself and I am indeed not motivated [tongue] )
quote:Originally posted by anarres
Stapel,
Distance corruption is measured from the nearest palace, so the FP acts as a corruption reducing measure still (and also the FP corruption is max. 30%). Soren has stated that this is how he always wanted corruption to work.
huh? That is not what I conclude from Aggie's post. In that post it sais 'palace', and not 'nearest palace'.
If it is indeed as you described, we are all happy I think?
But, to be frankly, I don't get it. If the distance corruption is measered from the nearest palace, this means the FP-city itself has distance 0, and thus becomes city number 2 on the ranks list and therefor has no (or very very few) corruption.
Stapel's mind cannot compute this with the remark that max corruption is 30%.
Could you please explain?
I'm no expert on the FP issue, but FP city always had corruption (because the rank was calculated from RP only?? Because FP had corruption cap of x%?? I dont know) So my guess is they might have adjusted this a bit but not to dramatically.
Straight from the horses mouth :
This is how corruption works now.
There are two kinds of corruption, distance-based and empire-based.
Distance-based is determined by the distance from the city to the nearest seat of government (Palace, FP, SPH). The farther the distance, the higher the corruption.
Empire-based is determined by the "city rank," which is calculated by assigning a number to each city in progression from the capital outward. The higher the city rank, the higher the corruption. Further, if the city rank is higher than the "optimal city number" (OCN) - which is map-dependent - the rate at which empire-based corruption goes up increases.
These two forms of corruption are additive. Thus, if a city has total corruption, it might be from high distance-based corruption, high empire-based corruption, or medium amounts of both.
Building a Forbidden Palace (or SPH) does two things. First, it provides a new center for cities to measure their distance-based corruption. Second, it increases the OCN by 3/8 (was 1/4 in 1.13).
This method is how corruption was originally intended to work. 1.12 and 1.13 use this model (the main difference between the two being the FP increase in OCN). Civ3 and PtW did not quite follow this model because there was a bug involving how city rank was calculated.
This "new" model allows for two cores, with the second being weaker than the first. One interesting aspect of this system is that it doesn't matter how far the two cores are apart from each other as distance-corruption is calculated from the FP and city rank is an absolute number (9th city, 10th city, etc.). I mention this only to show that building one's FP on a new continent can be very worthwhile.
Thanks Col! That is one piece of clearly explained stuff! The last weeks I have read an awful lot about corruption, what should change, what should stay, etc. I even for the first time have intensively studied the 'do you think you understand corruption' thread.
Your post, straight form the mouth of the horse, was one of the finest on the subject.
I have one question though:
quote:Originally posted by col
This "new" model allows for two cores, with the second being weaker than the first. One interesting aspect of this system is that it doesn't matter how far the two cores are apart from each other as distance-corruption is calculated from the FP and city rank is an absolute number (9th city, 10th city, etc.). I mention this only to show that building one's FP on a new continent can be very worthwhile.
But it does matter how far they are from eachother!
When both core are far from eachother, there will probably be many more cities in between!
Say I have 2 cores, both with 10 cities. This will mean that my FP city has rank 11, the nearest to FP rank 12, and so on until 20.
When I have 10 cities in between (cities that are far away from any palace), it will mean that my FP core will be ranked 21 - 30.
Since a city will only be really productive if both the rank AND the distance will be fair, we have something to think of when planning our city spots!
I don't think this is a major item, but stating that the distance between the cores doesn't matter, isn't quite true.
Imagine having two cores first, and than fill up the space between them with cities. This will increase corruption on the FP-core cities.
Wow, thanks Col. Very clear explanation. :)
I wonder what the 1.15 corruption exploit will look like :D.
quote:Originally posted by Plux
I wonder what the 1.15 corruption exploit will look like :D.
Indeed [lol] Still, I'm happy with the intentions and therefore also with 1.15 !
I have a question!
What does a courthouse do?
Fight distance corruption, fight rank corruption? or fight it in general?
Stapel:
Courthouse/policestation (and WLTKD as similar factor for waste) *used* to fight both distance and rank-related corruption. I assume this has never changed.(shrug)
quote:
Building a Forbidden Palace (or SPH) does two things.
First, it provides a new center for cities to measure their distance-based corruption. Second, it increases the OCN by 3/8 (was 1/4 in 1.13).
I thought it was even 50% in 1.13, but that's possibly due to poor wording (or reading...[rolleyes]).
Do ultra-corrupt cities still peak at 90%?
quote:Originally posted by anarres
Can someone please test the PBEM-SP load bug in this patch? I am at work and can't do it yet.
Tavis is persoanlly aware of this bug now and promised to fix it, the only question is if we told him in time for this patch (which is unlikely, but I'd like to know).
No it's not fixed.
It wasnt my explanation. I should have said - thats Soren's explanation about how corruption is meant to work.
I think we will all need to focus much more on the OCN and we will have to really think about the effects of building one more city.
quote:It wasnt my explanation. I should have said - thats Soren's explanation
Thats why it was such a good one :D
quote:Originally posted by col
It wasnt my explanation. I should have said - thats Soren's explanation about how corruption is meant to work.
I think we will all need to focus much more on the OCN and we will have to really think about the effects of building one more city.
Now here's an interesting issue. I tested a game with KR when I was online with ana&sky. We were wondering if a new city affects corruption for cities closer to the real capital.
Conclusion: it doesn't.
I'm not exactly sure what will happen when you exceed OCN.I gather a city built after reaching OCN will have higher corruption than this same city built before OCN would have.
But does it affect cities closer to the real palace?
If yes:
OCN is a factor to seriously take into consideration. It will affect corruption in your RP and FP core and thus your main production.
If no:
OCN is a minor issue to contend with for you rp core. Just make sure you dont built more cities in this core.
OCN in regard to your FP is slightly more complicated especially when you FP is far away from your RP and new cities will likely increase rank for your FP cities.
From the Col/Sorens post and the KingReno experiment I think the last option is true.
If this last option is true that would favor building the FP and RP relatively close and you can build 'old school' mega empires that are totally corrupt except for your core.
My view is that once you reach OCN you really dont want to build any cities near your palace. In fact it may well pay to thin out a bit if you've got a dense build.
Palace jumping would seem to be a thing of the past except in certain desparate situations eg starting on a tiny island. Since your first cities will have high ranks, you dont want to give them distance corruption - and your new core will have rank corruption if you move your palace.
I'm now operating on 1.15.
quote:Originally posted by col
My view is that once you reach OCN you really dont want to build any cities near your palace. In fact it may well pay to thin out a bit if you've got a dense build.
Seems we agree on this.
quote:Originally posted by col
Palace jumping would seem to be a thing of the past except in certain desparate situations eg starting on a tiny island. Since your first cities will have high ranks, you dont want to give them distance corruption - and your new core will have rank corruption if you move your palace.
Afaik rank was recalculated when you jump palace in ptw/vanilla civ and I suspect that still to be so. Otherwise palace jumping was quite useless in the old days too, as rank has always been calculated from the palace. RCP was only usefull around the RP and not the FP because of that. Or have I always totally misunderstood this [confused]
It would be interesting to see how the equal distanced cities problem is solved for a palace jump now. For new cities it seems rank for equidistant cities is determined by founding date, so hopefully thats how it will work for a palace jump too.
No - its me that's wrong. I still tend to think of rank as fixed rather than something that gets recalculated - which isnt the case.
conmcb25
14-01-2004, 16:53
col
My aplogizes, Im new at CDZ and dont know everyone. Are you a programmer for Conquests?
Thanks
Hehe - no. Just a ahem humble teacher.
I'm one of the mods at CFC so I have access to information posted there by Soren and Jesse who are Firaxians.
quote:Originally posted by col
Hehe - no. Just a ahem humble teacher.
I'm one of the mods at CFC so I have access to information posted there by Soren and Jesse who are Firaxians.
Take care with col conmcb25, he sometimes tends to extend those modpowers to CDZ threatening to deny information and might even do so in pbem's [eek]
Beam, dont go misleading the newbies. I'm just a pussy cat.
Melifluous
15-01-2004, 12:33
[lol]
Melifluous
Has that 1.15 been seen lying around somewhere????
Its on the CFC main page PP
Pastorius
16-01-2004, 17:18
WTG by Jesse [hmm] : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1519748#post1519748
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