View Full Version : Kemal vs Skyfish #2 *Spoiler*
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Hmmm, what do we mighty Ice Jarls think of this, my trusted counselers?
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NOT GOOD!
Well, with recent events in our game seeming to draw plenty of attention to Skyfish's spoilers, I guess I really should give some info too on how the recieving end of Sky's evil schemes is doing in this game. As I suspect Sky has plenty of maps etc of my kingdom on show in his spoilers, I'll make it a bit more sober than I usually do, so only a small overview of my empire's history so far to start with:
As can be read and seen in our open thread and the (over)passionate debate that it created, my start was near a large body of water, and I decided to move twice before founding Trondheim, apparently much to Sky's surprise. Here's a pic of my lands in the early stages of the game, turn 19 to be precise:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200418144248_Trondheim.jpg
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As can be seen, Trondheim has the possibilities to become a settler factory, but the main reason for moving was of course to create space in the north for a first ring of (productive) cities in the north, to better utilize the crime-fighting abilities of the palace.
As it turned out, the early phases of the game weren't very kind to me, with me once again failing to get any decent results from my expansionistic trait, having the Carthaginians (as well as Arabia and India) as neighbours, and as icing on the cake having to cope with the fact that (for a 99.9% certainty) Skyfish's Ottomans got a settler early in the game.
As the game progresses along, the first wonders saw their construction, with the Pyramids going to Sky's continent (America) and India grabbing the Great Library on the same turn (so it would have been reversed if they had been before the Americans in the AI build queue). The Lighthouse is also on Sky's continent with the Koreans.
With plenty of space in the west to expand, I decided fairly early on to get a second core up and running there as soon as possible, and exactly at the QSC-cutoff date I abondened Trondheim, after finishing the FP in Reykjavik, for the capital to reappear in Hareid to the west, resulting in the following empire in turn 83:
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Very productive of course, but what all probably want to hear now is whether this empire can manage to survive against the combined assault of Skyfish's AI dogs. Well, judge for yourselves after taking a look at the Viking military screen at turn 83:
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Place your bets now on which year the Viking empire will end...:(
Of course it has by no means come so far yet, as the AI's attack routines are even worse than if Skyfish put real dogs behind the controls, but still it remains to be seen whether the Viks can come through this war unscathed. My military will quickly improve the next few turns, and I fully intend to make it as tough as possible for Skyfish (or his AI friends) to get me to bend the knee and sacrifice the top spot on the ladder. [viking]
One thing I'd do like to share with you before I finish this little spoiler, is a situation only 3(!) turns before Sky visited my lands, known throughout Scandinavia as "The Great Misfortune".
Here's a pic from turn 81, showing my second galley located in the northern seas:
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Never, EVER, will the vikings forget what the Koreans did to them this turn. As can be seen on the pic, I'm just outside the cultural borders of a large Korean city here, and since suicide galleys sink at the end of all player's turns, I was confident I would have contact with Korea the next turn, as I have made contact with AI's in other games in a similar fashion too.
Somehow, the Koreans just ignored me completely, when turn 82 commenced I did not have contact, my galley had sunk, leaving me only utterly disappointed and amazed that the AI failed to contact an unknown civ it had in sight. I really would have played another game if this had turned out the other way...:(
I'll try and keep you all informed on how the wars progress off course.
Lt. Killer M
08-01-2004, 15:24
AI's hardly ever contact me UNLESS they can offer WM for WM+tech [lol]
or: if I keep the ship in their waters for at least two turns in a row.
@Killer: they don't need to speak to me for me to have contact with them, which is what I wanted to have. It works the same the other way around, if the AI comes to you with its SoD early in the game, you can contact them too via the F4 screen without having to actually click their units and contact their leader.
I thought once you saw a unit or a land tile under an AI border you automatically got contact? [???]
Also, there is a 'cheat' of using 'fortify all' (by activating a unit in the galley) that would give an extra tile radius, but (IMO) that is too much of a cheat to use.
@anarres: So you mean that if I'd seen a land instead of only coast and sea tiles, I would have had contact?
It could very well be, I don't know what the criteria are exactly, but I do find it strange that there would be other criteria being used for the AI. They have seen my galley next to their cultural borders after all.
I do have to say however that on rare occasions I too notice that I'm unable to contact an AI that has wandered into/next to my territory via the F4 screen, and I have to contact them manually by clicking their unit. I guess the same has happened here.
And I fully agree about the fortify-exploit anarres.
I would say that if they didn't attack you in the previous turn, that they will not have a chance to seriously hurt you now, since they have to cross difficult terrain. I'm sure that your military is up and running once they come :)
Kingreno
09-01-2004, 19:04
huh??? In all my games "touching" the border at the last turn of the galley is enough to make contact! I really do not get this at all and I think you should find out Kemal! If anything could prove to be fatal in the end it is this (blind) captain of the Galley.
I'd like to make a statement here concerning some doubts and confusion that may have risen regarding the discussions and agreements me and Skyfish have made about the rules we would use in our 1x1.
Recently, I was saddened to learn that statements have been made via MSM hinting at and suggesting that Skyfish and I have had discussions regarding the use of certain exploits and/or cheats, in which I would have bluntly refused any restriction on the use of well-known exploits such as the double use of city-tiles, getting extra happiness by readjusting the tax-rates when inventing a tech, or rolling for anarchy twice when inventing a government tech.
I don't know the reason or motivation why these suggestions have been made, but I would like to make it totally clear here that, with one exception that I will explain below, there has been absolutely no discussion whatsoever between me and Skyfish regarding any specific game rules at any stage of the game, and that if anyone had problems with the way I play my game and would like to ban the use of certain features/techniques in the game, I would never simply refuse proposals made by the other party without discussing the subject with him/her first.
As for the one rule we did twice have argued about, this concerned the possible banning of the use of MA with the AI vs the human player by using " phoney wars" . Skyfish has twice made me the proposal to ban the signing of such military alliances for the entire length of the game, at which I've twice answered that I would not like to ban this feature at a time before we met, but that I would be willing to re-evaluate and possibly agree with this proposal once we would have made contact. The second time he made the proposal was exactly 1 turn before I thought I would have contact with Korea.
No further rules have been agreed upon in this game, nor have I ever refused any proposals on getting rules regarding the use of exploits/cheats. For me, that means that pretty much the rules of the GotM on cfc are in place, regarding the banning of certain game-breaking exploits.
I am fully aware that my playing style and the way I approach the game are substantially different than the prevailing opinion here on CDZ on how the game should be played, especially regarding the use of features such as "resource disconnection" or "the palace jump", which I have noticed are seen by some as non-honourable playing techniques that should not be used. Again, if people should have problems with the way I play my game, tell me and we'll discuss what can or can't be done until an agreement has been reached.
Kemal
Kemal, I'm not at MSN as often as I did but I don't remember anyone doubting your playing style. In fact, AFAIK we all have the deepest respect for you! I remember that Sky mentioned the discussion regarding phoney war and MA's, but nothing besides that.
"Resource disconnection" and "palace jump" are both examples of tactics that are used by more of us and are perfectly fine (with me but I'm sure with the rest of us as well). I know that some of us don't like it, but that is not the same as finding it some sort of cheat. As long as there is no agreement to ban certain tactics in the game, they are perfectly fine! We have a lot of examples of games where they are used.
I hope (but don't doubt) that other frequent posters of CDZ can confirm what I said here.
Couldn't agree more. And one day I would be very happy to play a pbem with you Kemal!
I have never heart before of the following stuff:
the double use of city-tiles, getting extra happiness by readjusting the tax-rates when inventing a tech, or rolling for anarchy twice when inventing a government tech.
The simple fact that I don't even know, might give you an idea how I approach this game.
To be more specific. I don't like all kinds of exploits / features. No problem, as we have the possibility to make clear rules in advance.
But, if I am not aware of these exploits, I will not make rules about them in advance.
But of course I understand that others get the kick out of maximising the game using every single exploit, feature or bug.
To all what they like!
quote:Originally posted by Stapel
To be more specific. I don't like all kinds of exploits / features. No problem, as we have the possibility to make clear rules in advance.
But, if I am not aware of these exploits, I will not make rules about them in advance.
But of course I understand that others get the kick out of maximising the game using every single exploit, feature or bug.
To all what they like!
For that reason it is good to have a set of minimal rules and all exploits listed. Of course everyone is free to agree on different rules, but as you say it helps if it is clear what the bottom-line is.
A quick update on the war, we're at turn 87 now, and things aren't looking good for me. Here's a pic of the Arabs and Vikings as they manoeuvre into battle positions:
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As can be seen, the AI has failed to bring out its heavy guns so far, no (offensive) mercs, swords or horses to be seen so far. I've rushed a few spears and built some horsemen, and should be able to fend off warriors and archers now.
However, as you may have noticed from the pic, I'm now in anarchy. I've decided to do so after long deliberation, since the fact is that I'm not going to be at peace with the AI on my land anymore, at least not for a long time, as sky's technological superiority will allow him to bribe the AI without much difficulty. As I will need to change government at some point in the game, I figured it to be best to do so now, while the AI is still doing expansion instead of creating a huge military.
There has been a problem though, as I didn't get a very good rng roll when changing government, and have drawn a 6 turn transition. This now means that I will have to hold the AI off for 6 turns (I expect sky to bribe them back should I be able to sign peace before the 6 turns are over) with an army consisting of 5 horsemen and 5 spears, of which about half are veteran, and a few loose warriors. [eek]
Furthermore, if I am to have any chance in this game at all, I will need to get an army ready to take Delhi very soon and obtain contact with the other continent, as chances are very realistic that Sky is already researching Chivalry by now, due to the free techs he and the civs he shares the continent with have gotten, and I cannot withstand an AI attack if they attack me with knights without me having at least med. infs and pikes.
And another thing that is troublesome is that, even though sky is anarchy at the moment, I can see a steady increase in captured american workers for the Ottomans, and my military compares weak to him, so it could even be that he is attacking the Americans already, to take over Washington and the Pyramids that are located there.
So in short, I'm still fighting, but there is little hope...
Kingreno
13-01-2004, 15:13
Hmmm...
Is there a possibility to bribe the AI's on your turf against sky? Or do you not posess embasies and need to wait till you're a Republic? I do see some excess Ivory there, that is usually enough to get them to turn on sky(or the other AI!), it would give you some room...
As for techs...well, you know how to fix that! ;)
Turn 93:
It's a dark time for the Viking empire. The hope of the Viking high command of a possible (relatively) quiet period of anarchy has been in vain, as the lack of AI units those first two turns of the war turned out to be the calm before the storm, with both Carthage and Arabia sending plenty of invaders, consisting of mercs and, even worse, horsemen:
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Only because of the sheer ineptitude of the Arabian and Carthaginian military commanders, combined with a southern Viking border that was originally planned and founded with a Carthaginian war in mind, thus having all viking cities profit from the 50% hill defense bonus, has Scandinavia managed to make it through the period of anarchy unscathed.
However, there is little hope for improvement in the future...
After 7 turns of warfare Scandinavia's neighbours finally are willing to grant an audience to a Viking emissary, and after inquiring whether peace might be a possibility, the terms for peace given to him to ride back to Hareid turn out to be brutal. Both Carthage and Arabia demand a financial compensation for stopping the war (140 and 240 respectively), which would severely drain the Viking treasury. To make matters worse, the Vikings believe that any such peace-treaty may not be worth the paper it would be printed upon, with the Ottoman empire undoubtedly trying to renew the hostilities by offering all kind of temptations to the not very trustworthy AI leaders.
To prevent any such Ottoman bribery attempt to take place Scandinavia would need to dig even deeper and, after agreeing to peace, buy both Carthage and Arabia at its side against the Ottomans. Currently, the master of coin cannot say with certainty if the current empire could finance these massive plans.
And there's more to come still, as the forementioned only concerns the well-being of the Viking empire in the short run. To have any hopes in the long run, it is imperative to have contact with the civs on the other continent soon. It is feared that already the first tests are being made there to place a formidably armoured soldier instead of a pathetic little man wielding a lance on their horses, one which the Viking empire at the moment can have no hope to defend itself against. To obtain this technology for its own use, Scandinavia would need to raid the magnificent Library located in Delhi, as well as making sure it knows those civs that can send scholars there whose knowledge would actually improve the Viking's pitiful state of science, i.e. Babylon or Korea.
The latest attempt to contact Korea has, unfortunately, been thwarted by Ottoman pirates who, apparently after surviving the cross between Korean and Arabian land, are lurking in Arabian waters to prey upon any passing Viking longships. It could very well be that more Ottoman pirates are patrolling the Arab-Korean crossing to the northeast, and since the Ottomans move directly after Scandinavia does, they will likely prevent me from gaining contact (of course, that is if Wang would hear us shouting from our galley this time around).
Expect some more details in another update soon.
Excerpts from the personal reports of the Viking second in command, turn 93-102:
(...)
"...finally some good news too! After a long voyage to the east, marred by bad weather and Ottoman corsairs, our two most formidable longships have at last reached the high seas and encountered a Korean galley, thus bypassing the need to deploy their special Viking emergency horns to advent their arrival near the Korean shores. Now that contacts have been established a special comittees are being formed by both parties to enter formal diplomacy. Rumour has it that the Viking emissaries will be led by the Great Kemal himself!"
(...)
"After days of making offers and counteroffers the summit between Korea and Scandinavia has reached its end, with deals being sealed and put to documents to be known to all. Diplomacy turned out to take much longer than expected with two other parties taking a seat at the bargaining tables, the highly sophisticated Babylonians and the savage Americans. Of these four nations, it soon became clear that only three were in an actual position to make any serious offers, as it was known to all that the weak Americans were near death's door due to relentless Ottoman pressure, with the final city of Baltimore not being expected to hold out much longer.
But of these three nations remaining, it is of course no surprise that the Vikings were the most succesful, I'm preparing the actual agreements reached on the summit for publication throughout Scandinavia at this very moment, all will rejoice when hearing that these negotiations have yielded a net result for the Vikings of full world map knowledge, a large sum of gold coins as well as pledges of our rival nations of a donation to the Viking cause of 47 gold pieces per year, active military support in the Viking campaign against the evil Ottomans, as well as a major technological step forward, with Viking scribes being able to take notes of the secrets of Engineering, Monotheism, and Feudalism!"
(...)
"... even though many agree that meeting the other tribes was a blessing, there are some that argue that it might be having an influence on the leadership of the Viking Empire. Yesterday, I've thrice had to send armed patrols to quell public meetings of those wretched doomsayers poisoning our citizens minds with lies of the greatness of the Ottoman Empire, and the bleak perspectives of Scandinavia. I've even heard claims that it would have been better to continue the fighting against Carthage and India instead of restoring peaceful relations with those two nations to commit more forces against the Arabian invaders in the northeast! Such foolishness makes it an easy task to send in our horsemen to prevent further spreading of this nonsense..."
(...)
"Maybe indeed there has been some change in the ways of how our Empire is being run. Today finally saw the end of one of Scandinavia's most important institutions, as no worthy successor was found to replace the incompetent directors of the Viking Bureau of Statistics. Surely the Great Kemal knows what he's doing however, and has decided that he does not need the foolish estimates and prophecies of these charlatans. They could not even put forward any positive tidings for the Viking Empire in a single of their strange categories, so I guess that their use had indeed ended..."
(...)
"Disaster has struck! Today, the 102nd T.A.S., I recieved the battle reports from the Arab-Scandinavian fronts in the east, but the news has dramatically changed for the worse! A local officer took this picture of Arab forces besieging Risor, claiming that this rabble had just finished an assault taking out 2 regular and one veteran spearman fortified behind the city's walls!
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I have not been able to confirm how much truth lies in these reports, but I've answered that it could not be tolerated to have these worms spoil Scandinavian territory, and ordered our mounted forces to drive them out..."
(...)
"Had a meeting with the Great Kemal today evaluating the effects of twenty years of fighting upon the Viking Empire and the current state of Scandinavia's military. He was most displeased with the progress made so far, even the upcoming fall of the Arab city of Fustat could not placate him, stressing that it was a disgrace that there were still only two regiments in the Viking military forces worthy of the rank "elite", and the lack of territorial gains was remarkable, since military production has had the nation's top priority for a long time now.
I could only agree of course, fortunately my initiative to finally send out our horsemen against the Arab archers was recieved well, maybe this offensive can turn the tide..."
(...)
"Recieved another report today from the front, this time with even more concerning reports than before. It has turned out that there has been a massacre near Risor, with 5 regiments of veteran horsemen going down before finally the mountain was secured, another 3 were severaly injured. I have no idea how this could have happened. If only the Scandinavian research labs could speed the development of our improved armor and weapons up a bit, I've met a former BS-employee who's convinced that the Ottomans are way ahead of the Vikings in military advances.
I'm preparing to take the report to our Leader shortly. I'm sure he will be most displeased, but I'm strengthened by the fact that he believed in this plan as well as I did, and will remind him that none can predict the fickle ways of the Great Viking War-God, Rannumgen.
Going to take the family to the Viking games in Stockholm tonight, will be great to have some relaxing time off after this period of despair..."
Excerpts from the personal reports of the Viking second in command, turn 102-104:
"...finished my first day in my new position, haven't really been able to accommodate in my new quarters just yet, they're still busy taking away the stuff of my incompetent predecessor to be loaded in his burial-ship. Tonight will be the first test as Viking armies prepare to take their positions to launch an attack on the Arab city of Fustat..."
(...)
"Good news as a new governor has been installed in the former Arab city of Fustat! Strangely enough, it didn't seem that Ragnar Kemal was very moved by the news. I've noticed recently that he hasn't been himself at the yearly reviews of the Empire's management, being seemingly distracted, or not present at all! I've heard reports of rebellion even among some higher ranked officers, as they are doubtful of the use of the project of building additional longships in the northeast, the only project that seems to spark some interest into the Viking Leader at the moment, with reports coming in of him personally overseeing the construction there, with some people claiming to notice a strange fever burning in his eyes..."
Maybe he was shocked as well by the outcome of a recent poll in the Viking capitol of Hareid, showing that the voices of those protesting against the cruelties of war are becoming louder every day."
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Latest minimap:
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digger760
04-03-2004, 13:01
how did you get that unhappiness report?
You can get it by doubleclicking on one of your unhappy citizens, an easy way to spot the first signs of war-weariness. :)
KEMAL DYNASTY COMES TO AN END!
*********Scandinavia crumbles as Viking leader disappears*********
In the year 350 BC, shortly after learning of the construction of the Leonardo's workshop by the Ottomans, an era tragically came to an end as Ragnar Kemal, along with a handful of trusted servants, unknown to his other counselors and commanders, disappeared from the Viking capital of Hareid, leaving the empire behind in confusion.
As it became clear that he would not return, pandemonium broke out throughout Scandinavia plunging the realm in chaos, as several high-ranked officers vied for the now vacant throne, resulting in massive civil war:
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With none of these usurpers being able to bring the others into submission, these wars continued for the next 20 years, leading to the downfall of the empire, leaving nothing but rubble and stone where once mighty and proud cities had filled the lands.
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The enemy leaders saw and seized this unique opportunity to bring down their arch-enemy, and quickly enslaved the Scandinavian population into their own empires, and soon, no traces of the Viking civilization were left to be found on the world....
Until centuries later, when a group of Arabian, Indian and Carthaginian archeologists, funded by the Ottoman Universal Quest for Knowledge project, did a stunning discovery near the Arab city of New Fustat: beneath what turned out to be a gigantic burial mound, encased in a massive fleet of splendid and formidable longships, these scientists discovered remains pointing out the use of irrigation, mines, knights, the republic, mapmaking, and more knights by the Scandinavian civilization...
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There, clutched in the remains of a hand of a single, long forgotten corpse, clad in full armor and with a mount buried alongside it, they found a stone tablet which contained but one mysterious phrase....:
CONGRATULATIONS SKYFISH!
Wow! [:o]
Commiserations Kemal, what happened? [scratch]
WHAT !?????????????????????????
OH MY FUCKING GOD !
THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE !
I got the turn on April 13th and had NOT opened it until now and look at what greeted me on the password screen :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/200442120159_GEk!.jpg
There is no valid reason for this at all "in the game", I mean I was doing OK but still Kemal you could have built up galleys and archers and, upgrade and wipe me out. I mean I was not *leading* that much we were neck and neck.
You mention Leo's : were you prebuilding and I just got it "under your nose" ?
I am sure the reason for you giving up has nothing to do with the game, its outside stuff like too much work, or your Civ time
being taken by ISDG, fed up with me palying slowly, not interested in PTW anymore....all of these.
But nothing to do with this game or my skills. I am totally reluctant to have this count for the ladder [ponder]
What a way to resign though, incredible... And I can not believe I did not even open the save for 7 days !!!!!!!
You must have thought I was totally ignoring you or something...
I gotta sleep over this one, this is just too crazy.
I cant believe nobody else than anarres has reacted on this thread too ! I mean this is major stuff [eek]
Weird..yes, major....hmmmm... (it's only civ :) )
So, you were playing 1 turn per 8 days???? ;)
(Sky, my trust in you was right! :) )
I only noticed this because it was mentioned in the running and finished game thread. I wanted to ask Kemal but I havent seen him as I've been so f***ing usy lately [cry] I want more civ time [cry]
Not only did I notice it but I pressed Kemal for details on msm too.... :D
...he didn't tell me anything though. [hmm]
[eek]
Shit now you worry me :(
Hey, this is weird indeed. I'm sure it has nothing to do with you, Skyfish, but he also has got DDPP for two days and he always plays that game immediately. [hmm]
Me surrendering this game has nothing to do with Skyfish personally, I've had plenty of time to think this over and made the decision based upon ingame as well as outside factors.
Though I've thoroughly enjoyed all of the 1x1 PBEMs I've played at this site so far, I think it would be best now to personally give this aspect of PBEM (the 1x1's) some rest until I can once again muster the commitment again I feel one owes to another player to make the game a suitable form of MP. I've still got one 1x1 PBEM running that goes at a very relaxed pace, and from which I still get much enjoyment, but I'm not going to start new ones for a while, and rather spend my time and energy on the ISDG and the multihuman PBEMS (ddpp and the 2x2 kempro-anarsky pbem) that have been underway for quite some time now.
My apologies for terminating the game so suddenly Sky, while you were doing so well, but I'm sure you would have won eventually, and I have no problem whatsoever with letting this one count for the ladder, surrendering obviously means losing the game after all.
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