Game mechanics

[yndy]

Game mechanics:

Continued from original, ‘mother topic’
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1126

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

Subfora rule! [:p]
Heh.

Anyway, the dutch hattrick forum (on the hattrick site) is pretty active. I've read several explanations on how the RNG works. As a matter of fact, scoring isn't that random, but you could calculate the "star" rating of your whole team even before the match!

And that is the good part of the game, actually. If it was completely random (like that fucking footiemanager... grrrrr!) it wouldn't be fun at all.


Well, I’d appreciate if you could elaborate, I couldn’t find anything in the English fora and in the Romanian forum they think it’s ‘magic’.

[Shabbaman]

Okay, I don't got that much time right now, but I'll post anything (relevant) I might encounter.

And that's a promise.

The basic principle is that each team has a certain number of attacks (like 10 per half or so). The actual score is determined by the scoring capability, but the ball has to get there first. That's decided by the capability of the midfield and wingers. A certain amount goes through the middle, and a certain amount goes through the wings. Thus, if you'd abandon the wings you'd lose a number of scoring opportunities. If you'd set tactics to attack through the middle, which diminishes scoring opporunity through the wings but increases the central attack, this'd be balanced.

But of course the opponent has a role in it as well. A centralized defence could spoil your central attack...

[yndy]

OK, this is what I got (a lot similar to what you say).
You start with 11 players with all of their skills. There are 7 compartments (I can’t find a more suitable name): Midfield then 3 Defense (Left, Central and Right) and 3 Attack (Left, Central and Right).

At the end of the match you get the rating of each of them. The rating is calculated by the relevant skills of some of your players. You get that information right in the rules for example quote: Attack Rightwing
Winger right winger
Scoring forwards
Passing right winger
Passing right inner midfielder
Winger right wing back

What one needs to determine is the approximate importance of each skill for a given position. For example I put some numbers by the skills and an individual rating:
Winger right wing 100% (winger is set offensive) – passable winger (6)
Scoring forwards 50% (both forwards are normal) – passable forward (6) & inad forward (5)
Passing right winger 50% - weak winger (4)
Passing right inner mid 30% (middie is set normal) – weak (4)
Winger right wing back 0% (wing back plays defensive) – does not matter

I do not take into account stamina for this example. The calculations work as:
100% * 6 + 50% * (6+5) + 50% * 4 + 30% * 4=14.7 I divide it by the sum of percentages (100% + 50% + 50% +30%) = 230% and I get 6.39, or a passable right wing rating. You might add a bonus here for player experience, one for coach (if offensive minded or normal) and maybe others ?

Say you got all your ratings and there’s a match. There are 5 normal scoring opportunities every half of the game (this determined by the fact that there were no more than 10 normal goals in any match ever). For each opportunity there is a probability of assigning it to each of the two teams. This probability is dependant on midfield rating alone. If one team has a passable midfield and the other has a weak one, the probability for the first team is 60% 6/(6+4) and 40% for the other.

After the opportunity has been assigned, comes the determination of the side of the attack. Based on several posts of HT-Bjorn, the probabilities are most likely as follows: Left side attack: 25%; Right side attack: 25%, Central attack: 40%; Free kick (incl penalty): 10%.

After the determination of the side you either score or not based on the quality of your attack and the opponent defense. For a passable left side attack against an excellent right side defense you get a 43% chance for a goal 6/6+8. I’ve seen no confirmation for this, I came up with it myself based on the above. For a free-kick the calculation is probably different involving the set pieces and experience of the taker and the goaltending and experience of the keeper.

This was the way, the game worked initially. With time, the HT-people spiced it to add specialties bringing chance of events to score goals in excess of the basic 10. Now with the tactics you can increase a percentage for a decrease in another as well as negate opportunities with pressing, or make them count twice with counter-attack.

[Shabbaman]

Yeah :) Your rating calculation can be found in the ABC of tactics I linked to as well. Stamina is afaik only linked to midfielders playing "pressure".

[Shabbaman]

I've made an excel spreadsheet for those calculations, very handy for your line up. Later I've found that there were tools available for that as well. But since that almost feels like cheating, and I got that spreadsheet anyway, I'm not using those (atm, might come in the future). OTOH, what's the difference between a trainer you download and a trainer you make yourself?

What I found most irritating is that it's tedious (and difficult) to keep track of all form changes and skill increases (not that those happen that often...), but that those trainers can access the hattrick database. If those changes would be available on the site... Now you're more or less 'forced' to use such a trainer.

Nice fact: so far, I already got 3 (or maybe even 4) players who increased their playmaking skills. According to the standard (what I've read on the forum and on a lot of sites) it's 20 weeks minimum for a young player with passable skill (not my players...) and 10 assistant-coaches. So you could say that I'm a bit lucky about that...

OK, one more thing you missed in your calculations (or I misread, it's early): form. Form is a determinating factor. I'd count it in for at least 10%.

I think "experience" is another random factor, that might screw an attack or defence. The game reports are important, you can get a lot of information out of it.

[Shabbaman]

I've found this calculator: here (http://www.killanmakilavuzu.com/ht/rating.php)
Though I'm not interested in the results but in the mechanics... so I'm still searching (but should be working...) I'll keep you posted.

[Shabbaman]

Yndy, isn't the Hattrick Match Calculator the tool you're looking for? It gives nice info, I'm searching for underlying calculations atm.

[yndy]

Haven't seen that but I've heard that such tools exist. It assumes you know the ratings that each team will produce, and it gives you the expected result without considering special events. It's a nice tool, maybe you can add a link here.

[Shabbaman]

Sorry, missed on the "link" part. It's here (http://www.geocities.com/knights_of_apoc/hmc/hmc.htm).

It doesn't consider 'special events', like, your player getting send off during the match...

[ExPat]

Is there any one else still interested in this? I found a pretty good match calculator, when you can enter in the overall ratings for both teams , MF/ Right D / center d / left D, etc etc and it predicts the match result. It gets it very close , i tried it out with my last few results, put in the team ratings for both teams, and it comes back with the actual match result.

But it is only useful If i can use it BEFORE a match. I can input my next coming OPPS's ratings from the match before and then I can try out different strengths in my team to see how it would effect the result, So what I need to be able to do, is work out my team ratings depending on the players i put in positions. I have started making notes on the players i have in position, their ratings at that time, and the final team rating, there must be a correlation somwhere. I cantgo back and use previous games though, as form/stamina the the stats i train will have chnaged since then.
But if enough of us provide enough data, surely we can crunch the numbers??

[Shabbaman]

The "hattrick match calculator" I linked to or another one? Welcome to the forum btw!

[yndy]

I have simulated something like that on an excel sheet. It has all the formulae and works pretty good. The problems are:
* does not take into effect Special Events;
* you have to guesstimate your ratings and the ones of your opponent;
* will not give you the actual score but chances of win/draw/lose;
* It provides 'average' results;
I have some ideas to improve it but did not do anyting on it so far.

[ExPat]

quote:Originally posted by Shabbaman

The "hattrick match calculator" I linked to or another one? Welcome to the forum btw!


Yeas, sorry, i missed you second link when i posted here, or i would have given you props for it, Works well, doenst it?


quote:Originally posted by yndy

I have simulated something like that on an excel sheet. It has all the formulae and works pretty good. The problems are:
* does not take into effect Special Events;
* you have to guesstimate your ratings and the ones of your opponent;
* will not give you the actual score but chances of win/draw/lose;
* It provides 'average' results;
I have some ideas to improve it but did not do anyting on it so far.

Which ones are you guessing? these?
Midfield: poor
Right Side Defence: brilliant
Central Defence: world class
Left Side Defence: solid
Right Side Attack: weak
Central Attack: poor
Left Side Attack: wretched

Cause these are the ones i want to know, before a match.
I am now starting to collect data, and using what i can find in the rules, work out what makes up what rating. So if i have players X y and Z, who have stats A:b:c:d for example, and i know that gives me a rating of POOR, if i then have players a b and c, with stats a:c:c:d and gives me a rating Inadequate, then i can start to try and work the numbers so what ever i put in, comes out with the right rating.
The key is to collect as much data as possible, I have to start from stratch, cause historic games cant be used, as stats will have chnaged since then due to training. I can only collect, by myself, two sets of data per week, so if you liek to help, by all means post your data.
the format i will need is this info
Midfield: poor
Right Side Defence: brilliant
Central Defence: world class
Left Side Defence: solid
Right Side Attack: weak
Central Attack: poor
Left Side Attack: wretched


followed by your 11 players ( injuries? go with the player who played the longest amount of time) in this format
POSITION:FORM:EXP:STAM:KEEP:PM:PASS:WING:DF:SC:ord ers
with skills converted to numbers
divine 20
utopian 19
magical 18
mythical 17
extra-terrestrial 16
titanic 15
supernatural 14
world class 13
magnificient 12
brilliant 11
outstanding 10
formidable 9
excellent 8
solid 7
passable 6
inadequate 5
weak 4
poor 3
wretched 2
disastrous 1

so a line would look like this
CB:4:1:4:1:3:5:3:8:2:normal

i can crunch the numbers and we can see if we can let daylight in on magic, at last

[ExPat]

ever the nice guy, i just knocked this up.

http://www.fflo.com/cgi-bin/stats.pl

cut and paste your list of players, and it will convert them to numbers in the format i am looking for, all you need do is pick out the 11 you played, giuve them positions, and add orders to the end of each line

[Shabbaman]

If I didn't have such an enormous hangover, I'd try it right away... But I'll take it it's great, so thumbs up!