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Kingreno
04-12-2003, 23:54
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/2003124225319_start.jpg
29.03KB

Currently in: Kingreno, Propain and Kemal. Needed: a fourth player.

lvl:sid...

anarres
04-12-2003, 23:58
More info? This looks similar to most my C3C games in Civ choice and difficulty. :D

Kingreno
05-12-2003, 00:04
Ok Ok:

Civ: the Dutch
diff : sid
AI agression: normal
Map size: large
AI: 7 random opponents
world: Temp, 5 billion, Archipelago.

I settled on the spot and a friendly warrior joins our despotism![coool]
Amsterdam is on the Sea.

col
05-12-2003, 00:05
2 potential settler factories there.

Kingreno
05-12-2003, 00:16
3 actually :-)

Plux
05-12-2003, 09:44
Looks like a promising start :)

anarres
05-12-2003, 10:41
OK, I'm in. :D

Skyfish
05-12-2003, 11:18
Got room for a fifth ? Please [worship]
[love]

col
05-12-2003, 11:37
Oh yeah - now you can what a good start it is , you all want to join up. Bastards.

Kingreno
05-12-2003, 17:28
@Sky: Sure, you've proven your skills to the evaluationboard. Welcome[cool]

So, now we have 5! I suggest we start with these 5 and perhaps later we can see if teamchanges are needed for some reason.

The play order is to be determined by who actually has conquests. Obviously I do, but I do not know about you guys?

Strategy: any thougts? [eek]

anarres
05-12-2003, 17:45
Strategy for the early turns: Lean and mean!

Only build granaries and barracks for improvements.

Only build workers and settlers (from granary cities), warriors (very early for exploration), carracks (for exploring) and military units (i.e. horses, or warriors for upgrade if no horses).

Basic stuff I know, but if we deviate and build silly improvements we will get stomped (at least from my experience). Even on Deity you can deviate quite a lot, but on Sid I wouldn't dare...

Also worth noting that "anti-RCP" placement is useful for lower corruption (never more than 2 at same distance, and preferably only 1. Also make sure not to 'waste' a distance by not placing a city there).

Skyfish
05-12-2003, 18:08
We should have a weaker player in between anarres and Kemal, I'll sacrifice myself to get the [whipped]
Everybody has C3C now since SinterKlaas came to Holland today so my propsoed play order :
KR
PP
Kemal
Sky
anar

Also lets be kind and gentle on Kemal's first ever SG [lol] I'll keep the veto stamp in the drawer to the max :D

Kingreno
05-12-2003, 18:18
Remember it is "us" against SID.[}:)]

We're a team, how nice. [:X]

Ok, I'll play my 10 turns and keep everybody wellinformed. I will then send the game to PP who just informed me he got c3c! [goodjob]

Kingreno
05-12-2003, 18:24
Ok, build 3 warriors and started a setler. the warriors are scouting.
We have growth in 3, setler in 5, we're size 2. I say setler-granary, and granary in Rottedam to be founded near the second wheat.

Sent to PP.

anarres
05-12-2003, 21:02
I suggest you post the game here rather than emailing it. That way if someone is missing for 24hrs+ we can skip them, and also others can download it jsut to see the general progress.

ProPain
06-12-2003, 14:37
Here's a quick dotmap I made. Had to brush up my knowledge of RCP ( thanx Sky)

I entered 3 dots to mark best spot imo. Still leaves the purple circled area. We must settle there too imo. And the 2 sqaures near the arrow which could be alternates for blue dot.

For now I say settle red dot 1st, followed by yellow dot.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003126133417_dotmapsidsg.jpg
85.25KB

For those who wanna make new dots, here's a file without the dots.



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003126133723_rasterdotmapjpg.jpg
83.88KB

ProPain
06-12-2003, 15:00
write up

turn1 - move warriors (M.W.)
turn2 - M.W.
turn3 - M.W. move lux to keep A'dam happy
turn4 - Settler finished. Start Curragh.Fiddle with science slider. It was at 90% but no matter how high we maintain a 50 turn rate. Set it back to 10%. We lost some cash here the 1sy 14 turns
turn5 - M.W.
turn6 - M.W.
turn7 - M.W.
Turn8 - M.W., found R'dam, meet vikings. The lack pottery and have WC and BW. No tech deal possible for pottery, 8gpt, 22gold!!! I trade pottery for 2 workers (!!) and 10 gold. Ragnar has 5 cities alrdy! MOve workers to deerforest for chopping

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003126135722_scan.jpg
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turn9 - Curragh done, start granary
turn10- Meet spain, tech deals possible for 8gpt and 43 cash. Interesting detail their boat came from the NORTH!!! probably they're on our island. They have WC, CB and BW just as Ragnar.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003126135912_spain.jpg
120.12KB

I didnt open any huts yet, but it seems smart to do that now before the Spanish and Scand. ladn unit and do it for us. This is gonna be a hard game.



Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif SG3000 BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/200312614026_SG3000 BC.SAV)
114.01KB

Kemal
06-12-2003, 15:10
Wow pp, you're blazing fast!

Too late to propose an alternative city roster I worked on now I guess...[sad]

Good job on getting those workers from Scandinavia!

Kingreno
06-12-2003, 15:20
I disagree on the money lost PP, if we found more cities the "invested" beakers will begin to show! Tested it multiple times. I am certain that we will get writing in 30-35 turns overall and that would mean a hell of a difference with 50 turns!
Besides on Sid money is worth exactly nothing in this stage since the AI's will demand. demand. demand.

ProPain
06-12-2003, 16:48
@KR: I'm no expert on the invested beaker fenomena, but if you're right we should put lux slider back up.
@Kemal: just founded one city, so plenty of alternate schemese possible I'd say! I'd like to say your proposal

Kemal
06-12-2003, 19:58
I'm a total noob regarding the corruption effects of C3C, so on whether we really need a city even on distance 2 from the capital I'm going with anarres' opinion.

Taking into account that Rotterdam has already been founded, how about a city placement as in the following pic (no fancy dots as in pp's pic, just regular paint dots ;)):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2003126185044_dotmapkemal.jpg
69.5KB

My personal choice would be to found the blue dot city first, than the yellow one. both have access to forests for shields, and the blue dot city reaches 5 food surplus with the cow irrigated.

Also, considering the granary, I'd prefer building at least one other settler before starting the granary.

Will go and play the turns tonight. :)

Skyfish
06-12-2003, 20:51
Looks good Kemal ! Go ahead.

We indeed have an issue with Science, I dont believe we should "go back" to Max Science, it s too late now.
I agree with KR that max science towards Writing could have been achieved before 50 turns, but that would have been without Curragh or Granary just full on settlers to get as many cities up to increase our beakers.
It would have been beneficial in the short term but the granary gets his full impact in the mid-term.
In that regard maybe we should go on with the granny instead of taking another settler out, why do you think we should do that Kemal ?
I dont want to rant about granary though, there is no absolute truth on that subject.

Kemal
06-12-2003, 21:30
since there was forest about to be chopped I've went for a granary anyways, otherwise shields would have been wasted. Here's a report on the latest 10 turns:

21:MW, see red borders to the north

22:Meet Babylon, they lack Alphabet and pottery! Great trading possibilities here, I first trade pottery for CB and 69 gold, hoping they have mysticism, but unfortunately they do not. Proceed by trading alphabet for BW and WC, after which I get another Scandinavian worker for CB. We're now at tech parity, except for Ragnar who has The Wheel (I tried to get it but it was way too expensive...). adjust luxury tax to keep the people of Rotterdam happy. I've decided to continue our min. research, since we have used op some turns for that already, and because I feel we might need plenty of luxury tax in this land of plenty (as far as food is concerned)
23:MW

24:MW

25: Disease strikes Rotterdam :(, I was building a worker there, but I change prod to warrior now. MW

26:MW, Rotterdam produces warrior.

27:MW

28:MW

29:Amsterdam completes granary, starts settler, MW

30:MW, Greek borders in sight to the west for our curragh, but unable to make contact this turn. I don't think we're at tech parity anymore Toto, AI has IW, Mysticism, Wheel and masonry in front, but the techs are divided. So far we've been unable trade even the cheapest techs with these freaking Sid misers though, but now, with the new contact coming up, tech trading may well be a good possibility.

The savegame for skyfish:

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif SidSG_2550BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2003126202852_SidSG_2550BC.SAV)
128.67*KB

Skyfish
06-12-2003, 22:35
Got it !
Its feast time on SGs at the moment, i need to finish 2 CFC ones first [rolleyes]

Plux
07-12-2003, 01:07
Not playing here, but of course following closely :). Two questions:
- What was the motivation for building Rotterdam first, PP? I would''ve send the first settler to blue or yellow, hoping for a faster penetration of the lands between Holland and its neighbours. Units from R'dam now have to travel longer distances, and its tiles aren't much better than the other options imho.
- What came from the huts?

GL to the next player! :)

anarres
07-12-2003, 02:02
I just realised - there's no minimap posted yet!! [:o]

ProPain
07-12-2003, 12:33
Motivation for R'dam was the wheated flood plain that's under the worker. Worker was irrigating that, so that would mean it could use that tile to share with A'dam. Also the worker can irrigate the other fplain easily and then we can build some workers/settlers from R'dam. So proximity to improved tiles and worker was the main reason.

Kingreno
07-12-2003, 20:11
We're doing okay now. If we get to writing (which I doubt, but no-one is to blame but Sid[crazyeye]) we should NOT push for Phil...I played several Sid/Deity already and the AI always got Phil and MM first. Remember also that with so many techs already discovered any huts for the AI will very likely give Phil as well!
I Say lit or CoL.

What frightens me most is that this thread has more visitors in 10 days the all other spoilers in my forum[hmm][lol]

Skyfish
07-12-2003, 21:22
quote:more visitors in 10 days
More like 3 no ?
;)

Oh btw here boss :D
Not sure it helps that much...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2003127221646_SidCDZMinimap.jpg
3.01KB

Skyfish
08-12-2003, 22:58
All looks good.
Gotta hate producing a 6 food bonus in Amsterdam but oh well [rolleyes]

2510 : the curragh meets the greeks, they are only up the Wheel and dont have Pottery, give them a bit of gold with it, then the Babs dont have the Wheel but Mysticism, swap trhat with some cash and finally go to the Spanish and exchange Mystic for Masonry plus change, then turn around and sell wherever I can. Nice 3fer :D
The weak AIs are broke, Vikings are dominant with no gold but HBR and IW up on us, then the Babs have IW and gold, then the rest of the AIs (Spain, Greece)are level or under us with no money.
We still have 173g making 10 gpt.
I could have bargained our whole economy for IW but its not worth it, will wait for miser price.

2470 : worker is produced in Rotterdam, set to Settler.

2430 : press enter

2390 : Slaves finish to mine the BG in Amsterdam we finally have our 4 turn settler factory... Settler is produced and sent to the spot at distance 2
Wow ! am I glad I waited, the Greeks get IW and have no Mystic : they are OK for a straight deal (they have no gold)
The Vikes have Writing (16 turns before our min sci comes in...) Nobody else has it or can afford it.
The Hague is founded in a very crowded randstad :( We have Iron right nearby. Cant see no horse btw...

2350 : press enter

2310 : Play around the food tiles : Amsterdam does not need the irrigated wheat flood plain so it lends it to Rotterdam who needs to grow to get shields.
Decide to swap Rotterdam to a Warrior as we need MP instead of 30% lux for 2 turns at size 5.

2270 : Bingo we find and Indian Curragh ! They have 63g and lack Mystic and IW. Just Mystic is enough to bankrupt them.
Vikes still have monopoly on Writing and wont part from it even for 300g and 10gpt [argh] Not that I would do it mind you ;)

2230: Another settler out. Spain gets Horseback Riding and lacks IW, this is too easy.. In a solo game I would never
acquire it now its very early to be producing Horses but with the increased cost of upgrade [rolleyes]

2190 : Bang Rotterdam gets hit by disease but produces a warrior, the Zulus (??) complete the Oracle.

2150 : We get hit by disease *again* even though I tried the work around. Madrid completes Colossus.
Utrecht gets built on hill by wheat FP.
By the way The Hague produced a warrior and now is making a worker. The Indians have a worker available and neither HBR or IW, great stuff, just HBR buys it and they give 5g on top (their whole treasury)

Here is my proposed anti-RCP future cities, good sites actually, that anti circle is great !

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2003128215123_SidCDZdotmap2.JPG

And the save !
Good luck to anarres !

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif William of the Dutch, 2150 BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2003128214458_William of the Dutch, 2150 BC.SAV)
155.88*KB

ProPain
08-12-2003, 23:29
So we're doing outward spiral instead of ring now. No matter what they give us. we'll come up with a math solution!!

digger760
09-12-2003, 11:14
Who is the fello on the hill east of hague? Is that a new picture for aslave unit?

Skyfish
09-12-2003, 11:36
Yes slaves are dressed in their nationality's folkloric costume now, a nice addition of C3C :D

ProPain
09-12-2003, 11:45
Yes, slaves now look different, which is a great improvement. Also theyt seem much cheaper than in PTW, it almost feels like old vanilla civ prices.

Skyfish
09-12-2003, 11:48
quote:Also theyt seem much cheaper than in PTW, it almost feels like old vanilla civ prices
No sorry but that is not true, they are actually more expensive now between 125g and 130g.
I think you have exchanged them for techs until now PP and the cost of those has increased (relatively speaking) therefore...

anarres
11-12-2003, 15:16
I haven't forgotten about this! The last two nights I have been hosting my littlest brother at my house while he has Cambridge interviews, and tonight I have my company's Christmas meal.

I have however got tomorrow off work so I should be able to play then (providing my hangover isn't too dibilitating).

Skyfish
11-12-2003, 15:31
Haha funny my company's Xmas meal is also tonight :D
Enjoy !

anarres
12-12-2003, 22:59
Should we forget "anti-RCP" now the beta patch is out next week? I would say so...

Skyfish
12-12-2003, 23:33
I dont trust they will repair it man, really
I like our spiral :D Plus those sites I mapped are good ! Really !

anarres
12-12-2003, 23:36
One (very minor) thing I noticed - we are roading a forrest tile, which is a waste if the shields can be used. It only takes 4 turns to chop forest now, so in 6 turns you can road a forest and in 7 you can chop it and road the underlying tile.

Skyfish
13-12-2003, 00:21
The forest is used to get the settler out in 4 turns, since we are using it I thought we could use the extra commerce.
Of course we could chop it down but that would disturb the well oiled settler sequence, I thought it was more important at the early start to get the settlers out ASAP... [blush2]

anarres
13-12-2003, 01:02
ahh, nm. I personally wouldn't bother roading it when we could be chopping spare forrest tiles to rush a granary, but I'm not sure what would pay off quicker.

Skyfish
13-12-2003, 01:11
A granary ? But we already have one !
How can you be sure the chop will go to the Hague rather than Amsterdam ?

anarres
13-12-2003, 01:17
Umm, I'm not chopping that forest tile you were roading, I am chopping other forest tiles at The Hague. Both Amsterdam and The Hague will still have access to a forest tile, but the Hague can get the forest.

BTW - to get the shields going to a certain city you set the other cities around it to wonders and it will put the shields in to a different city. ;)

anarres
13-12-2003, 02:48
Pre-turn (2150BC): Looking good. :)


01 (2110BC) - Just some MM so Amsterdam grows and build setter next turn.


02 (2070BC) - Build settler in Amsterdam and set to worker. Build worker in The Hague and set to Granary. There are lots of forests around The Hague and it is well worth chopping in C3C at only 4 turns. Set lux to 0%. I'm not gonna write it but I am doing full MM every turn, I think this is an absolute must on Sid.

Babylon and the Vikings both have Writing now and we could buy it for 400 gold and 10 gpt, but the other civs we know are all poor. At least we get it 'for free' in 8 turns.


03 (2030BC) - Set lux back to 10%. I have sent a warrior back north to grab a hut before Rome, I get barbs...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003121314520_102.2030BC.jpg
72.62 KB

(AI) One barb attacks our warrior and pushes it to 1HP. True to the new AI barb routine the 2 remaining barbs fortify instead of attacking. [rolleyes]


04 (1990BC) - Build worker in Amsterdam -> warrior. Build worker in Rotterdam -> worker. The idea of the warrior at Amsterdam is to allow it to grow bigger (since at size 3 it isn't enough shields to maintaina a 4 turn settler factory).

I check the governor for Amsterdam and set all governers to empasise production, and set as default for all new cities. This means the governor will select tiles with shields when the city grows (usually you can gain 2 shields every growth turn witha forest tile). The setting "make default for new cities" on the governer screen sets the option in ptw.ini so you will all need to go in and set it on your machines or not all new cities will have it. Note that this is the only useful governer setting, since it only affects placement of citizens on the growth turn, when the only thing that matters for the new tile is the shield count.

Greece has Maths, but it is well out of our price range at Monopoly prices.


05 (1950BC) - Found Groningen, set to worker.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003121314535_105.1950BC.jpg
92.64*KB


06 (1910BC) - Amsterdam builds warrior -> settler. Utrecht builds warrior -> worker.

A wandering warrior sees a hut but I'm going to leave it in case I get barbs and they kill our scouting warrior.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003121314544_106.1910BC.jpg
16.86*KB


07 (1870BC) - 20 shields from chopping goes to the granary at The Hague. I set a citizen to tax at Rotterdam rather than raise the lux by 4 commerce.


08 (1830BC) - Now I turn up the lux to 20% as a couple more cities just grew and I am only 'wasting' one happy face. Amsterdam will need a 20% lux rate every 2 turns out of 4 (when it is size 5). Set back the taxman at Rotterdam.

I found India's cities:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003121314558_108.1830BC.jpg
18.03 KB

(AI) Chinese build Pyramids. [rolleyes]


09 (1790BC) - Rotterdam builds worker -> worker.

India has a worker for sale and we get Writing next turn so I buy it now for 114 gold.


10 (1750BC) - Research Writing, nomially set to Map Making @ min (expensive tech), but the next person can decide what to research.

Amsterdam builds settler -> worker. Utrecht builds worker -> warrior. Lux goes back to 10%.

The Vikings complete the Great Lighthouse. Grr - that sucks, they will be uber-powerful now...

Summary

I was just about to get 130 gold from India, but if we wanted we could buy Maths from the Greeks for Writing + 315 gold. I have left it with no trades completed just in case the next person wants to buy Maths. We could buy Maths and go min on Currency, but I am certain we wouldn't get a monopoly on it so Map Making may do just as well. Just remember to get the money back from India!

The workers near Groningen should chop the forest before roading imo, and The Hague completes Granary this turn. There are some workers at The Hague I have left this turn, since where they go depends on what the next person decides to do the next few moves. The worker at Utrecht that completes road next turn can help irrigate (the turns work out nicely ;))

Remember that Amsterdam is now a fully working 4 turn settler/2 turn worker factory. At the moment it is building a worker since we need more shields and the other tiles are being used by the surrounding cities.

Also remember to set the tech to research, Map Making is only a suggestion. Since we have Horsemen and Iron Working we don't beed to worry too much - it is likely the earliest we can leave the Ancient Era is in 50 turns when we next get a free tech.

A settler is on the way to the final city location we decided on - we will need new city spots soon and I think we can double up a couple of city ranks (since the patch is next week, and even if it doesn't fix RCP a couple of doubled cities won't kill us).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200312131467_110.1750BC.minimap.jpg
5.08*KB

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003121314619_110.1750BC.jpg
121.13*KB

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gifSidSG.1750BC.zip (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2003121314711_SidSG.1750BC.zip)
162.12*KB

Skyfish
13-12-2003, 09:49
Great job getting that 2nd granary up and almost running !
I vote we go for Currency as waiting 50 turns for MapMaking is waaay too long, with the amount of gold we have and the fact we are following the tech pace so easily, we will certainly be able to find a 2fer for MapMaking.

anarres
13-12-2003, 14:43
One thing: we desperately need a couple more carracks to find the remaining civs!! I really wanted to get one from Rotterdam but the growth was just too much and we also desperately needed workers.

Kingreno
13-12-2003, 14:55
I am at work now so I can take it this evening at home.
I agree on the currency Skyfish, and I'll also "desperately" build some workers and boats Anarres. ;)

ProPain
13-12-2003, 15:09
Go for currency and workers are always ok.

On the forest chopping: when you chop a forest that can be used by more than 1 city I think rules on division are as follows

- if it's worked by a city that city gets the production
- if not it's assigned to a city randomly. I think (but not sure) cities that build wonders are excluded in this step.

I'm pretty sure if you work the copped tile with a wonder building city, your shields go to waste as the first rule prevails.

anarres
13-12-2003, 15:33
PP, I thought chopped forests were different:

1) Shields go to the nearest city, with numbers rounded (so 1.5 away = 1 away and 2.5 away = 2 away).
2) In the case of a tie it goes to the 'earliest' city (i.e. first in database).
3) If a city is building a wonder the shields will go to a different city if possible.

Number 3) is certianly true - you can share a forrest tile between 3 cities and decide which one it goes to if you have 2 wonders you can switch 2 of the cities to.

Skyfish
13-12-2003, 15:38
anarres is right, the game will try all possibilities before letting the shileds go to waste, the Wonder trick works perfectly I had forgotten about it when posting :) (Make note to self, not to post in this thread while drunk on a Friday night [no]
Also, just FYI, something ppl forget about, you can chop outside of a city's cultural border the shieldds will still go to the city.

Kingreno
14-12-2003, 00:40
1750BC/turn1

As "agreed" we buy Math from the Greeeks. It results in the following deals:
Greece gives Math for Writing and 315 Gold
India gives 130 for Writing
Spain gives 46 for Writing (I hesitated but did it anyway[hmm])
Vikings give 206 for Math
In all cases but the first deal it involved all cash the AI had.
Vikings do have MM but won't trade, Babs have 6 gold, which is not enough to give em a tech IMHO.

As for builds I continue the paths chosen and prepare new setlers/workers/and a curragh in Groningen[cool]. MM heavily every turn is very much needed. especially when teh Randstad is so full!

A warrior from Utrecht goes SW to block the Isthmus!

ITT 1750BC-1725BC: Nothing!!

1725BC/turn2

The babs have 28 gold now and a worker as well. I decide to give them math for that. The Magnificent city of Eindhoven is founded. Thanks guys for having me found that one[thumbsup].
Also, our prosperous nation grows ever more weary of its existence, lux is upped to 30% to keep the Hague happy.
In the northern Jungle I fortify our reg warrior since a barb warrior aproaches.
There are no changes in AI tradeoptions. Our scouts report that the world is probably round since both west and east lead to India![:o]

ITT 1725-1700BC: The Barb attacks and dies, promoting our warrior to veteran! Some Spannish wannabee boat wanders trough our waters.

1700BC/turn3

Nothing much but MM.

ITT 1700-1675BC: An Indian boat is following the Spannish one. Is this a race?

1675BC/turn4

The Vikings use their MM well as they found a city on our continent. Luckily it is way up north very near the Babs!
Again, nothing big happening. Some workers finish and palnns need to be set up for city placement as well, for setlers are ready!

ITT 1675-1650BC: Nothing!

1650BC/turn5

By this time The hague and A'dam are on 4tsf. however, they are "out of phase" so a'dam is size 5 when TH is 4, and vise versa. so by warriorhopping Mili police only 3 warriors are needed!
The grand setler plan is executed.
Setlers are planned in:
-places near goody huts! pop them with settlement.
-Rotterdam will also build one, that will move towards the hut south of it with the Dies.
-Utrecht will send it's setler to the Chokepoint.
-next, as many spots as possilbe need to be either on the sea (extra commerce) or on fresh water (extra food), or both:)

The "dotlike" map will follow.

ITT 1650-1625BC: Nothing

1625BC/ turn6

Spain gets Poly. They won't trade for Math+gold+gpt max. [sad]
The Babs got MM this turn, as well as the Indians. No-one will trade. Spain is the only one lacking Math.

ITT 1625-1600BC: One scout warrior dies of barbs in far Indian territory.
Also, the Vikings demand 50 gold cash, I give in.[cry]

1600BC/ turn7

I set some workers to clear some jungle north west of the Hague.

ITT 1600-1575BC: Nothing

1575BC/ turn8

Move setlers and workers around. One trade possible. I could get MM from Babs for 600+18gpt. I wait...[eek]

ITT 1575-1550 BC: Nothing.

1550BC/turn 9

Found Arnhem. The Hut next to it gives a warrior[cool].

Also...Poly and MM are for sale. still for everything we have, I wait.

ITT 1550-1525BC: A babylonian Bowman and a warrior come from the north. still five squares away, but I think there are no more barbs in the area and Hamu is annoyed[sad]...Trouble?
At least we know who will sell us a tech for gpt now!

1525BC/ turn 10.

I found Maastricht.
teh rest is up to PP. I suggest getting Poly in a gpt from the babs. techwise, the greeks lack Poly as well, whille all have MM. I think Greece will trade Poly for MM.
There are no other techs available yet.
Good news on the scoutfront is athe appearance of a yellow border. The zulu probably are to the southeast!
The Map:[cool]



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20031213234340_area1500BCeditted.JPG
121.9*KB

The Red circles are targetted by setlers. the SE from the one to be produced in Utrecht, the Dyes place from the one in Rotterdam.
The Northeast either by the settler in the pic, or by the new one from the Hague. PP's choice.
The Purple dots indicate great places to build windmills.[:o]

and the area SE off groningen:



http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20031213234627_zulus!!!.jpg
32.02*KB

And the Save. Good luck PP, we're doing okay[estwing]



Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif SidSG.1500BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20031213234812_SidSG.1500BC.SAV)
226.52KB

Skyfish
14-12-2003, 11:43
More than okay actually ! We're so much not "in a hole" that its *almost* too easy I still LOVE that game though :D

anarres
14-12-2003, 18:06
I was going to suggest the purple circle 4 south from A'dam could be the last to settle, but then I remembered we get 2 food for irrigated desert. [groucho]

ProPain
17-12-2003, 00:06
start
Make deal with babs: poly for 24gpt and 380 gold, deal with Greece poly and 48 gold for mapmaking

interturn
babs move south.

Turn1
Sent settler from the Hague to purple dot SW of Utrecht dont wanna settle in front of babs when they plan an attack
Greeks have monopoly on construction, I dont even bother to ask em to sell it.

turn 2
nothing

Interturn
Scandinavian settler/spear combo appears north of arnhem [aargh]

turn 3
nothing

turn 4
Dunno what I did wrong but I get a settler from the hague or a'dam only in 5 turns because I dont have enough shields. Decide to build a warrior in both so we can so 7-5 toggle

Everybody except India has philosophy, Spain also has monarchy

interturn
Vikings settle on Western coast between us and babs. lots of bab units pop up.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003121623050_SIDSGscan.jpg
151.4*KB

turn 5
nothing

interturn
babs bypass viking town, maybe they're after us after all. Greece extorts us for 30 gold.

turn 6
[aargh][aargh][aargh]Vikings have founded a 2nd city near us!!! They are our first target: close, taking our spots and their core is far away!


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003121623122_SIDSGscan2.jpg
267.23*KB
Found Haarlem. Found holwerd next to hut. Get maps. Switch utrecht to spear instead of settler.

interturn
Babs turn around!

turn 7
utrecht into civil disorder.[aargh] Found Middelburg

turn 8
Groningen finishes Galley, sent to make contact with Shaka.Found Delft close to babs, hope it wont flip.

interturn
Babs move towards us again

turn 9
Found Breda next to dyes and hut. Get warrior from hut.

interturn
Greece (founded an embassy with us in turn 3 or something) declares war on India.

turn 10
nothing much

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003121623155_SIDSGend.jpg
237.39*KB

FOr next player:
- still noone has currency, but I think someone will soon unless everybody is researching gov techs. Stick woith currency and pray.
- Send the galley towards the zulus, they may just be our ticket to the last AA techs.
- We're running out of land, I think we need some defense now. We didnt end up very bad, Spain to the west is wordt performing AI, Scandinvia is second worse AI. Babs are doing better though. So to avoid a bab walkover spears would be very nice
- If we manage to build up forces we can attack the scandinavian cities and maybe get something out of ragnar. But that will take more than 10 turns I guess
- Wouldnt connect the iron anytime soon to avoid depletion.
- some more workers would come in handy also
- I just notice I forgot to MM Amsterdam before saving the turn, need to do that 1st turn to keep 2 turn growth.


Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif SG.1200BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2003121623241_SG.1200BC.SAV)
269.87*KB

Skyfish
17-12-2003, 10:06
We still had a very good expansion/land grab phase for a Sid level game, now is time to fill in the desert and start building up for our future "continent cleansing operation" [evil]

Kingreno
17-12-2003, 18:57
My 2 cents:
- Build at least 10 more cities, this is a large map so corruption won't hurt, besides we need the extra production. \
- Micromanage even more![rant]
- Build another galley in groningen. The fact that we see no Greek landunits from the east suggests the possibility there is a seastrait to the east that leads north after that. We may find China.
- We must have a city with harbouraccess to the western ocean for possible trade opportunities.
- Agree with PP on [viking][whipped]

Kemal
20-12-2003, 21:50
1: Founded Leiden in the south, Rotterdam produces worker and starts on another, while Groningen will build another galley. Spain now has currency, no other ai has it but I'm afraid we're still too far away from it (27 turns) to have any chance of trading it with another ai when we invent it. On a brighter note, we're 7th in productivity! (but 8th in all other major categories..)

2: Not much to report..

3: Den helder founded east of Rotterdam, Harlingen founded in the north. Make contact with zululand, who are unfortunately even more backwards than we are, trade them mathematics for 72 gold (all they have), they still lack polytheism too. Amsterdam has completed barracks and is ready to pump military units, spearmen for now to upgrade to pikes later, since we don't have any horses nearby it looks like we're going to have to trade for those.

4: Madras completed mausoleum. Utrecht and The Hague finish settlers, dyes are connected! :D

5: Thermopylae completed Statue of Zeus, some AI (Spain, India, Greece) have entered the new age.

6: Scandinavia and Greece signed a military alliance against India. Groningen completes galley to do some more exploring, and hopefully opening up a trade route to other civs. Lauwersoog founded to the west of The Hague.

7: Not much to report..

8:Time to despair... In a terrible wonder cascade, Babylon completes the Temple of Artemis :(, as well as the Great Wall, while India grabs the Great Library leaving Spain with the Hanging Gardens. Enschede founded in the desert south of Amsterdam.

9: Encounter a barb village to the north, our curragh has nearly completed it's voyage back to Holland, which should open up trading possibilites once the harbor in Groningen is finished in 3 turns from now. 3 workers are connecting the iron now, as many of the AI seem to lack this precious metal. :D

10: Not mcuh to report. We've been able to trade Philosophy with Zululand for polytheism for some time now, but I haven't done so so far since Zululand is outside the boat-range of most AI's, and all other AI's already have everything the zulus have to give. Babylon is behind some techs, so hopefully if we can get a good price for our iron we might be able to grab quite a few techs.

This is what our empire looks like atm:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2003122020446_Holland950BC.jpg
87.82KB

and the minimap:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20031220204524_Minimap950BC.jpg
6.57KB

Plus, of course, the save:
Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif Sg_950bc.sav (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20031220204844_Sg_950bc.sav)
306.26KB

Skyfish
21-12-2003, 15:53
Got it !

Kingreno
22-12-2003, 11:26
What do you guys think about that Insence to the east? Can we grab it? Would be great for trading and happiness!

Skyfish
24-12-2003, 09:44
Wow! We have beautifully grown since last time, but I might have been too radical in my earlier post saying we should now build military up :( I see at least 2 or 3 major sites to settle and we have not *one* settler in production [cry]
We are in desperate need of luxes and there are some unclaimed Incenses to our north, it would be such a shame to miss them, also we need to fill the gap between Leiden and Haarlem (with Hoofddorp ? :D) and we need to found South of Breda...
Golden veto stamp comes out of dusty spiderweb-filled drawer [evil]
We have Amsterdam at size 8 which will need clowns next turn and The Hague at 7 in same situation, no hesitation I swap both to Settlers. I need a third one but I will wait on Utrecht to complete its rax...
Delft is agressively settled and there is a Bab SoD within striking distance but they might be going after the Vikes, lets hope so...
Anyway even if they strike now there s nothing we can do to keep Delft.

925bc : Utrecht Rax->Settler, Arnhem Worker -> Rax, Leiden Warrior->Temple (because of SPanish culture pressure but vetoable)
900bc : Our harbor comes online, I decide to throw out another galley before going to rax. We can trade with Greece who has 2 extra horses, Spain and India.
The other civs either dont have harbours or are inaccessible, we'll have to be real careful when making gpt deals as all the Sid games I am in our rep has been thrashed
because of trade route problem... Horses are all our gold 662g + 8gpt...hm, no thanks... Iron is not online yet...
875bc : Bab SoD leaves Vike territory.
Iron comes online. India and Spain lack it...India offers nothing for it (philo and 60g)
Spain however offers 160g plus Spices plus philo: there might be a deal here...We make 50gpt I want to use that gpt to make deals with our neighbors and keep the cash for upgrades in case we get attacked.
Currency and Code of Laws to Spain for Iron +184g+25gpt.
Currency + Code of Laws +5gpt to Babylon for Construction.
Poly for Philo + 24g to Zulus and... we're in the Middle Age [jump]
Our free tech is...ooops wrong civ sorry :D
Great we're not that far behind : Greece has Engineering and Feudalism, Spain only Feud but Babs drew Mono thanks to us [aargh] Nobody else has an MA tech.
I really thought we were further down, when we hit MA in our other Dutch Sid SG the lead AI was building Cops Obs [eek]
Min Sci on Rep is started with a Scientist instead of 10%, its very hard to choose a place where to do that but for the moment is from The Hague which needs a specialist
at size 8.
Republic at max only gives it to us in 37 turns, I'd rather trade for it.
850bc: The Babs landed a settler pair in my back there's nothing I could have done anyway...They settle the Incense : that's a huge blow [wallbash]
Spain has Dyes available but they are worth more than our lux increase, as long as we pump settlers out of the Hague and Amsterdam we dont need it.
We still have quite a bit of land to fill out or else we'll get choked by the AIs.
825bc : Patch loaded.
No apparent change to corruption [???]
800BC : Spain and Greece sign alliance vs India. Buy Embassy with Spain, take a look :

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2003122484335_Sid-Madrid.jpg


Cant buy Engineering from Greece for a 2fer...cant even buy Feudalism who is more commonly known I'd rather keep our money for Republic.
Allying vs the Indians does not give any real discount, the Greeks actually want us to pay them for it [crazyeye]
775BC : Few settlers pop out, only one more needed I'd say...
750BC : Tilburg founded up north next to "our" Incenses...[mad]
You have to play around to find a specialist every turn, I've left vetoable build orders but the Babs are certainly moving huge SoDs around.
Horses are expensive but might be necessary, I kept our gold for upgrading our Spears to Swiss Mercs in case we get attacked, the lux trade is still not needed I believe but should be within 10 or 20 turns.
I still dont have a decent plan on how we will get Republic, Feudalism might be better with all our small cities and army of workers.
We might need to wait until we get our 25gpt back on KRs turn...

The settlers are heading towards the 2 sites (fishing villages) south of Breda
and the 2 sites betweeen Leiden and Haarlem :
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2003122484232_Sid-Site2.JPG


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/200312248423_SidSG-Site2.JPG


Good luck !


Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif William of the Dutch, 750 BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/skyfish/2003122484438_William of the Dutch, 750 BC.SAV)
355.86*KB

Kingreno
24-12-2003, 10:10
I'd vote to build a galley in Leiden or the city north of it (to be founded). We should explore the "other" ocean!

anarres
24-12-2003, 11:17
I am away until the 28th or 29th. Are we playing this with the new patch yet? If so we can ignore the 'anti-RCP'!!

Note that to recalculate the corrution and waste you can reset the governors for all cities, otherwise the calculations will return to normal over time...

Skyfish
24-12-2003, 13:54
We're already in the "other ocean" KR : our curragh went in there through Leiden :D
Game is patched anar...but I have not touched the governors.

anarres
28-12-2003, 17:12
Here is the turn order, since it hasn't been posted since we started.

KR
PP
Kemal
Sky
anar

I am playing.

Skyfish
28-12-2003, 19:27
I thought your post of the 24th was a "got it" since you were saying you cant play until dec 28th :D

anarres
01-01-2004, 23:59
Pre-turn (750BC): It will be 45 turns before we get republic and longer before we can go to war, so I change lots of build orders from units we won't be able to afford to buildings and workers (which is what our last 20 free units should be used for IMO).

Change Amsterdam to worker.
Change Rotterdam to Harbour.
Change The Hague to Marketplace (for the cash boost).
Chagne Utrecht to Marketplace.
Change Lauwersoog to Marketplace.
Change Enschede to Harbour.
Change Maastricht to Temple.
Change Groningen to Temple.
Change Eindhoven to worker.
Change Arnhem to Temple.
Change Delft to worker.
Change Harlingen to worker.
Change Tilburg to Temple.

I also do a bit on mm to promote growth in our smaller cities.

1 (730BC): A'dam builds worker -> Marketplace
Breda builds worker -> Harbour.

[aargh] Some units are on auto-move! Please can we not use goto at all? I thought this was a hard and fast rule of SG's?


2 (710BC) Eindhoven completes worker -> Marketplace.

The fucking Spanish dropped a settler/archer pair on one of our city sites!!

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200411225354_SSG.201.730BC.Spanish.jpg
40.58KB

Found Zwolle:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200411225341_SSG.201.710BC.Zwolle.jpg
50.64KB


3 (690BC) - Damn, the Spanish settle on the spot. :(

(AI) Babs declare war on Greece!


4 (670BC) - Found Gouda:


5 (650BC) - Den Helder builds worker -> Harbour
Harlingen builds worker -> worker.

(AI) - Babs declare war on Spain.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/20041122546_SSG.205.650BC.Dordrecht.jpg
56.5KB

6 (630BC) - Groningen builds Temple -> Aqueduct.

Build an embassy with the Vikings for 82 gold. They have 2 cities that are hampering us and at some point we will probably want to take them back.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200411225420_SSG.206.630BC.Vikings.jpg
91.73KB

(AI) - Vikings and Babs sign MA against Spain.


7 (610BC) - [zzz]

(AI) - Greece demand 57 gold, I give it.


8 (590BC) - Build an embassy with Babylon for 68 gold. I didn't even notice there wasn't one already...

9 (570BC) - [zzz]

10 (550BC) - Rotterdam builds Temple -> worker.
The Hague builds Marketplace -> Temple.
Delft builds worker -> worker.

India establishes and embassy with us.

Greece, India and Spain all have Republic now, although with 835 gold and 45 gpt we still can't afford it.

I've left 2 or 3 workers without orders this turn for KingReno to play with. There is a settler standing on the spot I intended it for (this is the settler that was beaten to our southern spot by Spain).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200411225452_SSG.210.550BC.jpg
36KB

icon_paperclip.gifSSG.550BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200411225550_SSG.550BC.SAV)
396.5KB

Kingreno
03-01-2004, 15:36
Ok, we are behind a lot, but not too much. We still have a contact with the zulu's and possibly the Chinese who will hopefully be stronger then the zulu...
Also, There are several civs that lack the republic![cool]

550BC; As said, Anarres left me some workers to play with, and so I do.
Micromanaging is needed in Rotterdam, Utrecht and The hague, to get same production but more cash. Middelburg and Enschede were on unhappy so some seaworkers for extra commerce to lux fix that.
In diplo things look as mentioned above. The good news is that We are the only civ not at war and many AI's are in feudalism/monarchy.
I carefully press enter!

IT 550BC; A wondercascade yet again.[sad]

- Delhi builds Suntzu
- Barcelona builds Knights templar
then nothing![:p]
Also, we now host 5 babylonian warriors on our turf, they "wander".

530 BC;

Leerdam is founded on the spot intended by Anarres.
Enschede builds harbour, set to Rax.
Breda builds harbour, set to Courthouse.
I up lux to 20% since several cities need it. Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Breda among them. It costs us 9 gpt, but it is worth it.
Our galleys hold the key to defeat or victory as they desperately follow the foo yong hai trail to the Chinese!:D

IT 530 BC; Athens build Leo's. That is bad news. I expect Sissy and Copernicus soon...
Was that a berserk I saw?[hmm]

510 BC: We found land! new land! next turn our galley will go north and claim it as our own.
Amsterdam finishes Market and set to temple.

IT 510 BC; Nothing much!

490 BC;


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/20041314158_nochina!.jpg
25.64KB

No Chinese...:(

Rotterdam builds a worker, set to market.
Utrecht market, to temple,
Groningen gets aquaduct and set to market.

Recent building orders gives randstad new building scematics. MMged for optimal results![tongue]

IT 490 BC; nots.

470 BC: Maastricht builds Temple. Set to courthouse since it has 45% corruption and could become a powerhouse with shielded grass and the hills!
Middelburg gets the harbour and will build a courthouse as well.

IT 470 BC: Our spain deal does not continue. Isabella has her own Iron now...[cry]

450 BC: Okay, some possibilities here but do not expect to much sunshine. Babs lack Iron! I make an embassy for they are annoyed and have a ton of units on our tulipfields.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200413143219_Babyloncapitol.jpg
89.55KB

Ok, they give us EITHER "Mon and lit", feudalism (if we throw in 55 gpt and 200 cash), engineering (and a bit more if we wanted), Monotheism (and more as well).
Ok.
* Obviously Mon and lit suck. but will do if the rest is fucked. The good thing is namely that zulu's (and china?) will probably trade a MA-tech for them once they get it. A long shot...

* Mono/engineering...well, "nice", but nothing more. The first will allow cathedrals and is a preq for knights. The second is good for the movement, we have many rivers. Plus, it is also relatively cheap!
I say 50/50.

* Feudalsim. Now this is what we want...grrrr. And with the new gov, tech prices skyrocketed for feudalism. It is our left leg if we do it. IMHO: stick it 'wtsds' Hamu, that is NOT a good deal.

*Other possibilities...well...in 4 turns we have enough for a medium steal! [evil].

The gutfeeling I have tho is that when both babs and vikings lack republic now...we can seriously get a very little bit back in business. Fuck, we may even own all the Saltpeter![fdevil]

I want some views on this. So here is the save, note please it is pre-mm-ing so main concern is the deal. [goodjob]



[b]Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif sowhatnow450BC.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200413143325_sowhatnow450BC.SAV)
414.38KB

anarres
03-01-2004, 19:10
Maastricht was building a temple to cover the 8 tiles to it's NE, alhtough it isn't amazingly urgent.

I checked the deals and it may be worth thinking about giving both Dyes and Iron to the Babs. With Iron and Dyes you only need 680 gold to get Feudalism - almost a must considering what Feudalism gives us! OTOH waiting for the Babs to get Republic is another valid option. [hmm]

You save 28gpt by selling the Dyes, and you can buy Gems from India for 18gt (or Spices from Spain for 19gpt) to replace them. :)

Kingreno
03-01-2004, 19:50
quote:Originally posted by anarres

Maastricht was building a temple to cover the 8 tiles to it's NE, alhtough it isn't amazingly urgent.

I checked the deals and it may be worth thinking about giving both Dyes and Iron to the Babs. With Iron and Dyes you only need 680 gold to get Feudalism - almost a must considering what Feudalism gives us! OTOH waiting for the Babs to get Republic is another valid option. [hmm]

You save 28gpt by selling the Dyes, and you can buy Gems from India for 18gt (or Spices from Spain for 19gpt) to replace them. :)


Oh I meant Maastricht finishes temple, then starts CH. Guess we both happy.[:p]

Yes. also an option to be considdered...this does give me another idea though...

Kingreno
03-01-2004, 20:54
Ok. This deal got cost the better part of my saturdayevening, seriously giving in on drinking time (it's open till 4 am, thank god[tongue])

The bottomline is we now are a poor civ that has: Literature, Monarchy, Republic and Feudalism as well as Spices. We had a decent 6-turn anarchy and PP is the first minister of a Dutch Republic which looks promissing so to say![thumbsup]

The details:

450 BC: "the" turn...

India: we give 75 gpt, 583 gold and dyes for the republic
Babs: we give Republic, 4 gpt, 180 gold and Iron for Feudalism and Literature.

(Why the lit? Well, I could do iron+Rep for feud alone, but since hamu is broke, we lose some value. By buying lit as well, we get it for "just" 180+4pt and some of the Iron.)

Vikings: we give republic for 41 gpt and 20 cash.
Spain: We have no lux...so I decide to buy spices from spain to prevent masive Starvation In anarchy! It cost 17pt+2o cash.

No sence waiting (or whipping...we have so few happy people), 6 turms we get...ok IMHO, could have been 9!
I MM all cities and it is doable. I can get 38 gpt with taxcollectors and off course start min sci on Mono. Only Holwerd is on starvation in 3 turns, the rest won't die. I hope no flips though...[:o]

450BC IT: Vikings and India sign a peace treaty.

430 BC: yeehaw, no flips and 5 turns to go.

430BC IT: Many Spanish and Babylonian units die this round!
Also...These are going to the spanish city on our southern tip. Moving a warrior west from Rotterdam will make all 56 units return. [:o]


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200413195519_uhoh.jpg
31.09KB

410 BC: The zulu get Monarchy! I trade it for Republic and hope they get to engineering/mono a.s.a.p.

410 BC IT: zzzzzz

390 BC: Thank god workers still work in anarchy. MM to prevent disorder in some places. Get an extra 4 gpt. Floodplains rock during anarchy! (now there's a oneliner)

390BC IT: zzzzzz

370 BC: BTW, our scouts are doing okay. Most continentshapes established.

370 BC IT: Vikings and India sign MA vs Greece. nice.

350 BC preturn: I select the republic as our next government! Up to PP to MM it all and make sure we get enough cash to keep paying our friends.[help]

the map:


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200413195024_350BC.jpg
137.96*KB

Also, find those damned Chinese. They are alive since Beijing is in the top5. they must be near here, either west or east of this island.


http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200413195146_chinanow.jpg
21.36*KB

Good luck to PP, but perhaps we should all take a look to determine strategy.


Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif 2sg350bc.sav (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kingreno/200413195326_2sg350bc.sav)
424.1*KB

anarres
03-01-2004, 21:21
Wow! Nice trading! [coool]

ProPain
13-01-2004, 14:12
Guys I've been slacking here, my apologies for that. I can't take this turn before thursday, but that's a slim chance also. Probably my first opportunity will be next weekend, so I suggest you skip my turn and proceed to the next player.

digger760
13-01-2004, 15:44
How come there's been so much of a delay in this game... I was watching it closely...danged it i could ever afford 75gpt in the pre-historic age though :( thats amazing..how did you manage to come up with so much cash.

Kingreno
13-01-2004, 16:07
quote:Originally posted by digger760

How come there's been so much of a delay in this game... I was watching it closely...danged it i could ever afford 75gpt in the pre-historic age though :( thats amazing..how did you manage to come up with so much cash.




First, PP is busy and we have agreed to wait a couple of days.

For the second. Our tech rate and lux rate are soo low (0% and 10/20%) that all commerce is turned to hard cash![cool]

Try it!

ProPain
18-01-2004, 21:54
1- 330 BC

checking out start: Everybody seems to gang up on Greece and Spain
Shaka is annoyed rest looks pretty pleased
Notice the palace of A'dam and the temple of Maastricht are our only culture generating buildings

Micromanage all citizens, running +14 gold now, so all mm'ing has netted us +3 gpt. [aargh] At least the zulus are more backward than we are.

move some workers and galleys

2- 310 BC
nothing much

3- 290 BC
The Hague finishes temple, starts library. Extra prod citizen
Arnhem finishes temple , starts library
Lauwersoog finishes market, starts lib. extra prod citizen
Gouda civil urest
Our income rises to 29gpt, 35 gpt after I mm the hague and lauwersoog citizens
Babs all turned north during IT, but vikings are still present in our territory preventing us from using our workers where we want. GRRR

[b]4- 270BC
Eindhoven finishes Market, starts Lib.
Switch Den Helder from harbor to market, irri desert gets 2 food so harbor not needed yet, but we do need the happiness and cash
A galley reaches Oslo where it notices a bunch of Scandinavian untis, inclusing some knights

IT
Spain and Scandinavia make peace
Amsterdam builds temple, starts lib

5- 250BC
The Scandinavians know the chinese and want to sell contact for 228 and 1gpt. Indians offer it for 220 gold. I think we'll find them eventually so I decline. Yank up the lux slider a notch to prevent civ unrest in 3 cities. Expensive move but production and food are more important than gold atm imo.

IT
Scandivians move troops towards unguarded Leerdam[confused] Could be they;re passing thru Karlstad too. I;m gonna move in a warrior just in case. Indians are fielding tens of War Elephants and it looks like they're wacking Alex over the head.

6- 210BC
Utrecht finishes temple starts lib.
Scan sword doesnt attack but moves south, I guess they're heading for Karlstad

7- 190BC
MM utrecht

8- 170BC
The Hague finishes lib and starts spear

IT
Greeks build Sistine in Thermo, my guess is that it will be an Indian possession soon

9- 150BC
Find the Chinese, they;re quite backward even lacking polytheism. Theys seem stuck on a tiny island

10-130BC
Amsterdam finishes library and starts spear

That's it.

Not a very exciting 10 turns, Ai are tearing up each other which is ok and I did some peacefull building.

My observations:
- We're quite behind!:D We need culture and defense.
- So I'd say we build libs, marketplaces and then spears
- A 2nd lux would be very welcome.
- When we get our iron back I say we start building med inf and find ourselves a target. I;m thinking the small viking cities or the spanish. The Vikings are quite powerfull but far away, the spanish are relatively weak but close.



Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif sidsg130bc.sav (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ProPain/2004118205140_sidsg130bc.sav)
459.15KB

Skyfish
18-01-2004, 22:23
Hmm...Dunno about the Libs. Dont believe we gonna research anytime soon.
Personally I'd go for Marketplaces first no ?
Also last time I looked we had loads of defense, what we need is offense ! [evil]

Kingreno
18-01-2004, 22:44
quote:Originally posted by Skyfish

Hmm...Dunno about the Libs. Dont believe we gonna research anytime soon.
Personally I'd go for Marketplaces first no ?
Also last time I looked we had loads of defense, what we need is offense ! [evil]


I agree, I'd even say Cathedrals/Colossea before Libs considdering our luxury situation, that will produce culture too, and believe me when I say that there is no such thing as doing research ourselves on SiD.[eek]
Kemal, Anarres? ur thoughts?

Kemal
22-01-2004, 23:10
Haven't forgotten this one, already started playing the turns but there are some decisions that need to be made that I would like to hear all about before they're made.

I'm with KR and Sky that we do not need libraries atm, I think we're better off building granaries, markets and barracks atm. However, with us getting our iron back soon now, we should make a definitive decision on who we want to attack in the near future. With our slow moving med.infs, we definitely should attack a civ with targets nearby, so that limits us to Spain, Babylon or Scandinavia.

I personally would go for Spain, because of the following:

- They are the weakest civ of the three, I suspect we're even outproducing them as we're 5th in mfg goods atm in the demographs.
- They are already at war with two other civilizations, one being Babylon, so that eliminates the possibility of them bribing Hammurabi, and the other is India, their powerful next door neighbours, who have hopefully already decimated much of Isabella's armies.
- I see severe drawbacks in attacking Babylon or the Vikings. Babylon seems to be the strongest of the three, and the Vikings have their Berserkers to make surprise attacks. We cannot hope not to lose cities if we declare war on them anytime soon, which would trigger severe war weariness.

Furthermore, I really think we should build the FP, corruption is rampant in our cities, and with the new patch I don't see any real drawbacks for it. Question is where to build it, as I see it we have two choices, either in The Hague or in Utrecht:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041222256_Sgplaatje.jpg
139.82KB

As it seems that the FP is mainly used now to increase the OCN, I think we should go for the fastest builder, whcih is The Hague, which will complete in in 9 turns. Utrecht is the only other fast builder we have besides Amsterdam, there the FP can be completed in 12 or 13 turns I guess.

Any comments would be appreciated, I'm holding off playing any further for now. :)

anarres
22-01-2004, 23:18
At first glance, can't the FP go in Maastricht? It acts as a second palace with respect to distance corruption and it will make our northern cities much more productive.

More comments later...

Kingreno
22-01-2004, 23:36
Hmm...some points to take on the vikings:

- their cities are taking quite a bite out of our semi-core cities! Culture is also offensive in their case and with so few units in cities we should seek to prevent flips!
- Berserks, I agree Kemal, are a very serious threat, however C3C does not prevent an AI of the habbit of retreating damaged boats! 3 or 4 catapults north of Risor would make every berserk retreat home in silence...it is risky though.[hmm]. But IMO possible.

As for the FP, well, I say the quicker the better. That would mean The Hague (Which is also historicly correct!!![lol])

Kemal
23-01-2004, 11:04
After considering our options for a bit longer, some additional viewpoints on the situation:

First of all about the war, some additional pics so everyone can get an idea of how things stand atm:

Netherlands:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/20041239264_Holloand110bc.jpg
98.08KB

Spain:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412392624_Spain110bc.jpg
45.68KB

Minimap:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412392645_minimap110bc.jpg
9.17KB

I agree, KR, that the Vikings hold a good site for one of our cities with Karlstad, so that would be a benefit if we could capture and hold it. However, I think the berserkers will be more dangerous than they seem at first glance:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412393436_Lighthousetrondheim.jpg
11.13KB

This one spells bad news for any plans of stopping the Vikings by catapulting their ships. If we take a look at the geography of our coastal waters, it seems to me that it is extremely unlikely any viking approach to our cities will be made via coastal waters, as the shortest routes will take the Viking galleys through sea, and out of range of our artillery.

There is more, however, something I overlooked yesterday [blush]:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412393852_ragnarandhammu.jpg
10.71KB

Stupid Babylonians have signed a RoP with Scandinavia, meaning that Viking Knights can take the Babylonian road towards us and arrive much faster than we would like.

And as far as Spain is concerned, I now believe they definitely aren't the easy pick as far as possible military targets are concerned as I thought them to be yesterday.
As I said yesterday, my main reasoning behind attacking them was that their armies are already weak, and that they have war with two other civilizations already. However, that may also mean that they won't be a possible target at all, since if we take a look at the overview of Spain, and the conquests the Indians have made already, it might very well be that once we launch our attack, there will be no Spanish cities left for us to attack that can be reached by foot.

So I've changed my opinions a bit, I think we should still declare war on Spain, maybe we can get Cordoba from them (which is in the southeast of Holland), and if not their current wars protect us from them bribing anyone significant, and with them fighting a losing war already they could still very well offer a good peace deal once we can get them to recieve our envoy again.
But, I'm with Kingreno now that our first war will have to be against the Vikings, to take their cities close to our borders. We might want to try and sign peace with them again as soon as possible once we've secured those cities however, since we can't hurt them anymore after we've taken those cities, and Ragnar still sure can hurt us a great deal with them berserks.

Then, I think we should prepare for a real war, and I think we'll have to choose between either our soon to be new neighbour India, or Babylon. Still plenty of turns to go before we'd need another decision though.

Finally, some comments about the FP: it seems there's more to the FP than just an increase in OCN even though the readme, as well as the (updated) civilopedia, say distance corruption is calculated from the location of the original palace. I've spoken briefly to anarres about this yesterday, and it appears that the FP does have an influence on the distance corruption after all. In that case, there are several other options possible, including the city of Maastricht, as anarres suggested.

ProPain
23-01-2004, 11:38
I agree with most but I'm still worried about our cultural development, especially with those wretched babs next door. I suggested the libs not for research but for culture. I think our border cities are under great flipping danger.

Furthermore I dont quite understand who you wanna attack first Kemal, spain or vikings or both. But I do agree they're our best (read:only) option.

Kemal
23-01-2004, 12:05
Indeed you're right PP, we're under extreme cultural pressure from the AI, but I'm afraid that the culture generated by those libraries will not be enough compared to the costs for building them. Even with the libraries in place, the AI's culture is large enough for our cities to be under extreme risks of flipping.

Sorry for not clearly putting forward my view on the subject of who to attack, got kinda carried away I guess bringing forward different arguments.

My current opinion is we declare war on both Spain and Scandinavia once we get a decent army online. We'll only actively attack the Vikings to obtain the cities close to Amsterdam, though if it's still there, we could capture Cordoba too in the southeast. We'll make peace with the vikings as soon as possible after capturing those cities, and possibly with Spain if we can get a good deal from it.

ProPain
23-01-2004, 13:20
Sounds good to me Kemal. We can use the spots where Karlstad & Risor sit :)

anarres
23-01-2004, 16:01
I would definitely not waste our limited shields on any cultural buildings. Also, unless they actually reclaim tiles in a city's '21' the effect to flip chance is extremely minimal.

I remember now the reasoning Travis gave behind the FP civlopedia text - the old FP implementation meant that the distance of the FP from the palace didn't matter at all because it gave a second core. Instead of explaining the two types of corruption they decided to say that "distance from the palace matters", because in general the further away it is, the more corrupt the FP cities will be (even though this is because of rank corruption). Kind of a lame way to describe it IMO, but the important thing to remember is RANK is calculated from the 'Real Capital' and DISTANCE is calculated from the 'Nearest Capital'. Because of this I really think we need our FP in Maastricht, this way we can take the Bab cities for ourselves.

Regarding who we attack: Why bother with Spain (=90% corrupt cities) when we can instead go for Vikings and then the Babs. The Vikings will provide us with semi-productive cities and when our FP is built (in Maastricht [groucho]) the Bab land we take will also be semi-productive. I am not sure about Beserkers btw, whenever I have played against the Vikings and they are at a decent size by Invention I still never see more than 1 or 2 Beserks, even when I am at war with them. Maybe on Sid they can have a few more, but on Deity they have next to none.

Lt. Killer M
23-01-2004, 16:08
anarres, a word of warning, on Deity, PTW(!) I often see a ship go somewhere,a few turns later a city in tundra turns color - must have been several zerks there, as it also happenes after rifles are widespread....
even 1-tile island cities.

I also watched a LOT of 2-Zerk attack coming from Galleons and Caravels in C3C lately.

Kemal
23-01-2004, 17:36
Agreed anarres, after doing a quick test the results indeed show that distance corruption is still calculated via the FP, meaning that for the decision where to build the FP several other factors besides shield output come into play. I think that there are now 3 possibilities for a decent FP:

1. Maastricht

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412316724_Maastricht.jpg
108.52KB

- Turns to complete (estimated with possible city growth added in): 15

2. Eindhoven

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004123161544_eindhoven.jpg
101.07KB

- Turns to complete: 19

3. Haarlem

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004123161620_Haarlem.jpg
108.93KB

Turns to complete: 19

Even though I see some drawbacks using Maastricht as the FP, the lands around it are difficult to cultivate, especially once a possible war against Babylon starts, the site is excellent once the jungles are removed near the cities around it. And as we need a FP fast (IMO), the city that completes it the fastest is a logic choice. If anyone wants it in one of the other possible cities (I can imagine PP and Kingreno favouring Eindhoven.. ;)), please say so before tonight.

About the war though anarres, I think we misunderstand eachother since I have no intention to actually send armies to the Spanish cities, the advantage we might be able to get from war with Spain could lie in a later peace treaty where we might be able to pick up a tech at lower costs. Since they are at war with India, and clearly losing, shouldn't they want to make peace later at (for us) good terms? Especially when they are still at war with the two other powerful civs (Babylon/India) at that time... I really think we should create some possibilities for us get techs from other civs at lower prices, atm we need to pay our entire treasury (401 lump sum plus 82 gpt) for engineering only, and that's with the Indians, who offer the best price.. :(

As far as the Vikings are concerned, well time will tell whether they will deploy their berserks, since I personally have no more doubts that we will need to attack the Vikings soon.
Babylonians seem a logical (actually the only) choice of civ to attack after that, but lets not rush ahead of things too much and wait how the situation develops... a problem is for example that the Babylonians are the proud owners of the accursed Great Wall.
Still, even though facing musketmen behind walls with med infs are poor odds for us, attacking India would be suicide, since we lack the maneauvrability with our med. infs to withstand their elephants in the desert/plains to the south.

anarres
23-01-2004, 17:43
Yes, I misunderstood about the war thing. Definitely have a fake war to get stuff cheap is good.

ProPain
23-01-2004, 19:13
Off course I'd like to see the FP in Eindhoven for sentimental reasons :) BUt in the end this is Sid level, no room for sentimentals, we want to win. So I vote Maastricht (let's culture flip some Belgian and German cities [lol])

Kingreno
23-01-2004, 19:40
Eindhoven! It is a lot...uh...It has more...uh....of course sheesh! Common man, if we're gonna build it anywhere it is Eindhoven because of...breaking u...ggggggggggggggghhh...andalso.. ..beeeeeeeeep....shields...commerce...corruption.

Ach joh, wa maok it oet? Mestrech it is...[wallbash]

ERIKK
23-01-2004, 19:43
You guys haven't seen my new Ajax smily for MSN6... :D

You would love it! ;)

Kemal
23-01-2004, 23:34
Preturn: Change arnhem to barracks, Maastricht to marketplace, Tilburg to settler, The Hague to Forbidden Palace, Utrecht to granary, Eindhoven to granary. Micromanage all citizens increasing our gpt income from +32 to +52. A quick look at the military advisor tells us we are paying a fortune to unit upkeep, I disband several regular/conscript warriors, taking our gpt total to +62. Check the demographs: noth too bad, we're 5th in mfg goods and gnp, 6th in productivity, makes us "best of the rest" I guess. :)

1: amsterdam warrior, set to warrior. Rotterdam marketplace, set to granary. Groningen marketplace, set to granary. Arnhem barracks, set to granary. Lauwersoog barracks, set to granary. Tilburg settler, set to worker. Change The Hague to spearman, Maastricht to FP.

IT: Some Babylonian knights appear next to our borders, most likely they are en route to Cordoba...

2: Amsterdam warrior, set to colosseum. The Hague warrior, set to colloseum. Utrecht granary, set to library. Lauwersoog granary, set to temple. enschede barracks, set to granary.

IT: more knights appear...

3: Eindhoven granary, strarts temple. Block off all land routes to Cordoba with a spearman near Rotterdam.

IT: Babylonians withdraw again.

4: Add settler to lauwersoog. Several of our deal end this turn, and bring our gpt up to +163. We also get our iron back, try to find out what Hammu wants to give for renewing the deal, he wants to give one tech for it, but I'll keep the iron as we need med. infs. If only a new source would pop up in our lands...
Also, the AI has invented printing press as I'm able to sell contact with the Zulu and the chinese to Greece and Spain. Get 130 gold from the Greeks, but spain unfortuntely is broke save for spices. Though we really need extra luxes, I do not make the trade of exchanging contacts plus 11 gpt for their spices, as counting happiness in our core cities means that we'd still not be able to reduce the lux tax to 20% :(. Furthermore, this would greatly devalue any future deal with India trading our dyes for their gems plus any additional stuff they might have. Currently the Indians are broke, so no deal yet.

That the Indians, and all other civs btw, are almost broke, is not really surprising to me. Feast your eyes on this one, we're talking 50 BC (!) and this is what the Vikings are able to pay for our trade goods:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412322242_Vikingsongeloof.jpg
82.43KB

[eek] [eek] [eek]

Continuing with the turn: upgrade several warriors to med. infs, Change Utrecht, Amsterdam, Eindhoven and The Hague to med. infs.

IT: -

5: Amsterdam mace, set to swiss. merc. The Hague mace, set to mace. Haarlem marketplace, set to courthouse. Upgrade more warriors, and some spears. Encounter a stack of viks near Vadso, mostly outdated stuff:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004123222814_VikingsnearVadso.jpg
94.75KB

IT: China and Greece sign alliance vs Vikings. Good, maybe this will draw away some berserks.

6: Rotterdam granary, set to barracks. Utrecht mace, set to swiss merc. Leerdam worker, set to worker. Hahaha! grab 209 gold from Mao in exchange for Monarchy, some cheap Greek money for the Dutch! Begin to move maces and some protective mercs in offensive positions near the viking border towns. Rush barracks in Delft.

IT: Arghh! Greece and Babylon sign a peace treaty.

7: Amsterdam swiss merc, set to swiss merc. The hague mace, set to mace. Groningen granary, set to barracks. Delft barracks, set to swiss merc. Zwolle harbour, set to worker. Switch Dordrecht to swiss merc. Switch Leiden to barracks.

Declare war on vikings.

Enter Viking lands.

IT: A Viking swords, pike and med.inf appear near Arnhem.

8: Middelburg Courthouse, set to market. Damn, Risor has grown size 7 this exact turn, with a vet pike defending! I had 6 vet med.infs ready, but I'll wait for 2 more now before I'll make the assault. Change Arnhem to mace. Rush swiss merc in Leerdam.

IT: Viking knight is spotted making it's way to dutch territory using Babylonian roads. Zululand and Scandinavia sign a military alliance against us. Our Swiss merc defeats a viking mace, Holland enters its Golden age!

9: The Hague mace, set to mace, Utrecht mace, set to mace, eindhoven mace, set to swiss merc. Arnhem mace, set to courthouse. Holwerd barracks, set to courthouse. Leiden barracks, set to swiss merc. Dordrecht swiss merc, set to courthouse. Leerdam swiss merc, set to worker.

We attack Karlstad, defended by two veteran pikes. We lose 2 maces, but kill a total of 4 pikes and a sword in and around Karlstad! [yeah] Then Risor is attacked, first mace takes one hit from a vet pike defending, and the second loses in straight sets from another vet pike. With knights able to strike Risor should the remaining 6 be able to win, I decide to do a strategic withdrawal for now, until we can get more troop to the scene. Risor is surrounded by Jungle, so we might be able to kill some knights there.
Move my galley that's scouting the Babylonian roads. Spot trouble, BIG trouble...:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/200412322266_problemen.jpg
128.31KB

Change The Hague and Arnhem to swiss merc, if they decide to attack near Lauwersoog and Arnhem, we might be able to fend this stack off, it consist mostly of out-of-date units such as swords, spears and warriors. I have no idea where this stack suddenly comes from, the one located earlier near Vadso was much smaller, they must have had millions of troops inside the city waiting to be ferried to the Chinese... at least they are all slow moving, so possibly we can get them to walk between Lauwersoog and Arnhem by heavily defending one and emptying the other of these two cities. I hope we can survive this one, might be I pressed for the attack to soon, sorry guys. :(

IT: Tons of Vikings make their way past the Babylonian roads. only 2 knights so far though.

10: rotterdam barracks, set to swiss merc. The Hague swiss merc, swt to swiss merc. Groningen barracks, set to med.inf. Delft swiss merc, set to swiss merc. Harlingen worker, set to courthouse. Lauwersoog courthouse, set to swiss merc. Enschede swiss merc, set to swiss merc.

Kingreno
24-01-2004, 00:10
Use the nuke. use it.

Skyfish
24-01-2004, 00:23
Oh great !
Thanks a lot Kemal [rolleyes]

Aggie
24-01-2004, 07:39
[mouth]Ehm....I have noticed that the AI will run out of the troops after the first wave, so you should simply destroy that and ....ehm...yeah...whatever... [sad]

ProPain
24-01-2004, 13:11
[mouth] indeed!!! The only times ever I saw SoD's like that was when I built them myself. they may be outdated but with stacks like that, who cares.

I'm with KingReno: NUKE EM!!!!

Kemal
24-01-2004, 13:30
The save for Skyfish of course:

Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif SidSg_70AD.SAV (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Kemal/2004124122916_SidSg_70AD.SAV)
482.32KB

anarres
24-01-2004, 13:39
Hmm. If we could get that stack to attack our own stack or 15-20 Swiss Mercs I think we can make it.[lol]

I have to ask why we turned away almost 6000 gold and 500 got from the Vikings! I'm guessing it was because you thought it was a bug, but you didn't memtion it...

Kemal
24-01-2004, 14:38
They "could" pay that much, but they did not want to for our miserable offer of dyes, they would only pay about 200 gold for that.

I guess now we will make them pay for refusing our generous offer... [rolleyes]

Kingreno
24-01-2004, 14:40
On a more serious note, what do the Babs want for an alliance?[evil]

Skyfish
25-01-2004, 09:17
Is an alliance with Babs worth destroying our Rep in 6 turns when we make peace with Vikes ?
[groucho]

ProPain
09-02-2004, 18:46
Ahum, I' d like this game to continue. Chances are it will be over quickly anyway :(\

So Sky, you're up!

anarres
09-02-2004, 20:37
Yeah, I'd like that too!

Skyfish
16-02-2004, 14:18
Sorry guys I really got no time to play this one :(
I really want to play thats why I tried for so long but if anar wants to take it over, he's welcome [cry]

ProPain
16-02-2004, 16:43
well anarres, give it your worst I'd say

anarres
16-02-2004, 22:47
OK, I am playing. I think we are doing fine btw... ;)

anarres
18-02-2004, 00:41
Preturn: On inspection I don't think we can survive the Viking SoD without help...

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004217232531_201.70AD.jpg
191.72*KB

2 Beserks
2 Med Inf
18 Swordsmen
8 Archers
3 Pikes
7 Spears
9(?) Warriors

Looking at the Bab diplo they will sign an MA for 37 gpt. Since we hope they will break it I make an MA deal for 73 gpt, taking 516 gold from them.

AI (Babs): A Bab Knight kills a Viking Knight.
AI (Vikings): The SoD splits - 3 archers take Adab from the Babs and a few SoD units move in.
An SoD Sword and Spear combo head north to kill the Bab Knight.
Several more units move north from the SoD, presumably to fight Bab forces.
8 Swords move east towards Delft, but they are taking a strange route, and are still 2 turns away.
The Sword near Karistad kills our Swiss Merc there. :(
9 Warriors and 3 Spears stay back, just north of Risor. [???]

01 (90AD): Karistad riots even though it is under Govenor control. [rolleyes]

I rush walls in Delft, and part-rush barracks in Lauwersoog, which was producing a swiss merc.

Our Med Inf kills the injured sword at Karistad.
I move the 5 Swiss Mercs at Lauwersoog towards Delft.

To get the FP in 1 turn instead of 2 I have to run a -2 food deficit with only 2 food in the bank. :D

I do extensive mm, then I notice the ship I can move! I take it 1 N and see nothing just beyong the Viking Spear/Sword combo, and then 3 S and see what remains of the SoD (just NW from Risor).

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004217233317_201-2.90AD.jpg
54.88*KB

This has 2 Beserks, 4 Archers, 2 MI, 3 Pikes, 3 Spears, 10 Swords and 3 Warriors. :(

Oh yeah! Here is the 'other' problem:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200421723340_201-3.90AD.jpg
54.58*KB

AI: Spain demands 82 gold, it is the least of our problems and a small price to pay.
AI: The Vikings land a Med Inf next to Amsterdam (PHEW!!), and move their SoD's in to action - all of a sudden the AI is able to use strategy like this???!! [mad]

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200421723353_202.110AD.jpg
102.86 KB

Stacks (from SW to NE):

Stack1: 1 Musket

Stack2: 2 Beserks, 5 Archers, 2 MI, 3 Pikes, 4 Spears, 10 Swords and 2 Warriors.

Stack3: 7 Warriors, 2 Spears

Stack4: 8 Swords, 3 Warriors


02 (110AD): Complete the FP.

'Stack4' is placed so that if I pull defense from Delft they can get there before me. I move all the Med Inf and Swiss Mercs back to Lauwersoog, leaving 4 Swiss Mercs in Delft.

AI: Spain and Greece sign MA against the Vikings.


03 (130AD):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200421723360_203.130AD.jpg
78.6*KB

The sword stack has 8 Swords and 3 Warriors, the main stack next to Lauwersoog has 2 Beserks, 10 Swords, 2 Med Inf, 5 Archers, 3 Pikes, 6 Spears and 5 Warriors.

The main stack's 3 Pikes worry me, so I decide to send the Med Infs to take out the Sword stack: I lose 1 Med Inf and kill all 8 Swords.

I have 3 Med Inf to play with, so I decide to kill 4 warriors (for WW points and promotions). Next I use a Swiss Merc to take out a 2hp warrior on grass.

Here is then end turn, there are 8 Swiss Mercs in Lauwersoog.

AI: Zulu and Spain sign MA against the Babs. The Vikings attack from the SoD with both Beserks (1 win, 1 loss) and an MI that loses.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004217233654_203-2.130AD.jpg
66.08*KB


04 (150AD):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004217233733_204.150AD.jpg
53.34*KB

The stack next to Lauwersoog now has 1 Pike and 3 Spears defending. There are also a Sword, 5 Archers and 8 Warriors, but it seems kinda lame now. The smaller and more worrying stack is now in jungle 2 tilees from Delft and has 8 Swords and an MI on offense, and 2 Pikes and 3 Spears defending....

The Vikings will talk to us now, but they will only give 300 gold and we have a rep to keep. In hindsight I may have braved it without an MA if I knew they would talk so soon, but as it is we are fine carrying on the war, and we should aim to get at least Risor and Adab in a peace deal.

I have 12 MI at 3 or 4 hp that can reach the SoD, and I decide now not to lose an MI in the counter attack when it kills the Beserk. Our WW count is going up every turn, and soon we will hit level 1 and suffer unhappiness.

The MI attack and kill 1 Pike, 3 Spears, 1 Sword and 8 warriors for no loss! All that is left now is 5 Archers. :D

Now an MI kills a Sword, leaving just an archer on the tile. I am being extra careful not to lose units because of WW.

AI: The Beserk next to Lauwersoog attacks and dies. Some archers move further in to our territory.
Babs complete Cop's.

More turns to come, I just wanted to post this to let you know we are gonna survive.

anarres
18-02-2004, 23:57
05 (170AD): I spend 92 gold on an Embassy with the Chinese. Unfortunately we just hit level 1 WW and have 1 extra unhappy face per city. I put up lux one notch to 20% to compensate, it costs us 43 gpt and covers the WW pretty well.

Here is the current battleground:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004218224126_205.170AD.jpg
108.58*KB

Thankfully the Sword stack is moving away, and we have mostly warriors and archers to play with now. [groucho]

First I take the Pike out next to Maastricht with a single MI. Next I work on the Archers around Lauwersoog and (at last) we get a MGL! :D I decide to make an army, and after a miniscule pause I decide not to keep it for horse-based army but to make my first ever Med Inf army. The bonus move point will mean it can retreat, and the attack bonus can't hurt.

Checking out the diplo, I descover the Babs have no iron!! This is great news. We have enough units now to defend against the Vikings and let the war run out, and at the same time we can earn mega-bucks from the Babs for selling iron. First though I buy the Babs Territory Map for 82 gold to see why they don't have a supply.

Interesting - there is a supply just inside the Viking border, maybe they lost it in the wars, or maybe they never had it. [hmm] Also they have only 1 source of horses, but that is relatively safe in their core. Check out how far away it is - the red circle is the horses, the green is the (Viking) iron. It looks like we won't be getting our own horses for a while:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004218224314_205-2.170AD.jpg
265.43*KB

Wow! Noticing India will pay a *lot* for our WM I decide to do a round of map trading - we only make 68 gold but we now have a full map of the world.

Now I buy spices from Spain for 25 gpt and 3 gold. There is no chance of losing the harbour trade route so there should be no nasty suprises.

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200421822485_205-3.170AD.jpg
59.64*KB

Last turn India had horses to trade - but this turn they don't. :( India has 2 horse resources, and they are trading with the Vikings and the Zulu (from F4). Checking the map for them both I see Scandanavia has a horse and the Zulu don't.

I pay India 32gpt for an MA against the Zulu and 6 gold, and pray. Yay!!! A horse appears to trade, which I get for 23 gpt. Now I go to the Babs and give them Iron for Mono and 1218 gold. I could have got 1563 gold and 69 gpt in cash!! [eek]

We are set on course now to build horses for 20 turns, then to buy Chivalry and upgrade all our horses to Knights. We can then attack again and maybe get some more techs. Hopefully we can take the 2 nearby Viking cities in war and get Chivalry in a peace deal, but that may be asking too much.

Whatever we do, we really should expand IMO. More territory = more resources, and we really need them to trade. Our current bank balance is 3547 gold, and we are getting 159 gpt. We are also giving out 188 gpt in deals. [blush]

AI: The Vikings move back towards the border, but with only 8 Swords in offense they will be no problem.

06 (190AD): Nothing much, just healing troops and lots of MM. 2 cities are building horses at 1 per turn, with a couple more producing 1 every 2 turns.

AI: Meh, the Vikings back off - it would be better if they came and died in our lands.

digger760
19-02-2004, 08:42
how can you tell that the Babs could of offered 69gpt?

Puwen
19-02-2004, 09:38
umm, he checked what they offered in gpt before accepting the trade?

Skyfish
19-02-2004, 10:52
Super turns anarres !
Great stuff, this game is in the bag :D
I have never seen a diplo screen with everyone at war in the Middle Age I think...

anarres
19-02-2004, 12:23
heh. The diplo screen is even more crowded now, several more wars/MAs started since I took that pic.

My only regret is not having the balls to go straight for Cavs - it's a poor mistake, but I could never have guessed how well we would do against the Vikings...

Skyfish
19-02-2004, 12:47
...or easily get Horses...Unpredictable this stuff man...

ProPain
19-02-2004, 14:31
Impressive anarres, really good job!!! I'm getting more positive we might pull this off, especially if we can bring down the tech pace by keeping wars raging.

anarres
20-02-2004, 02:55
07 (210AD):

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200422014832_207.210AD.jpg
93.66*KB

The single Viking Musket in our territory is perfect for our new army. We kill it and I set the Hague to build the Herioc Epic.

AI: Zulu declare war on the Greeks.

08 (230AD): The Zulu will talk now, but they are no threat and our MA with India has plenty left to run.

09 (250AD): I move in the MI stack next to Risor. There are 16 MI and the MI Army:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200422015134_209.250AD.jpg
113.87*KB


10 (270AD): The army kills 2 Muskets, then we lose 2 MI taking the city, defended by another 2 Muskets. After much thinking I decide to keep the city. I totally forgot to bring a settler with me. :(

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200422015250_210.270AD.jpg
139.93*KB

I can't stress this enough: We absolutely must starve Risor to size 1 as fast as possible (building workers or settlers whilst starving), becuase the Vikings have about 15 times more culture than us, and that margin is increasing exponentially. The chance of flip is about 0.5% per pop point, but the required garrison guarenteed to stop flips is very high at 40 per pop point. A 0.5% chance of flip is just about acceptable over a long number of turns, but right now the chance is almost exactly 6% and must be controlled.

heh. Sorry, I will stop the rant now, I've just seen so many reps trashed because of a 2% filp chance left too many turns...

Our MA against the Vikings with the Babs for another 10 turns. We are giving Iron for 15 turns to the Babs, which is also when our Horses run out with India.

Utrecht will (in 5 turns) be able to get 30 shields per turn (i.e. 1 horse). In 4 turns the Hague builds the Heroic Epic and that can also get 30 shields per turn. It is worth noting we now get 50 units free, and our 102 units is costing 104 gold. My rule of thumb is that the most you ever want to pay in unit costs is about 1 gold per unit, and without any more cities our costs are now at that limit and heading upwards fast.

I have left Chivalry so far, but soon we should buy it and upgrade horses soon. In 5 turns we can have built (I estimate) another 18 horses to add to the 8 we already have. I have done some sums, and we should be able to buy Chivalry and upgrade all 18 horses with about 400 gold to spare if we do it then.

Here is the diplo screen:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/200422015354_210.270AD.diplo.jpg
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It will be a close race between us and the Babs as to who gets Adab. We can get about 15 MI there in 2 turns, but if the babs move there in force this turn they can beat us. There has been lots of fighting just around that area over the last 10 turns, and the Babs have helped lots.

I guess the big question is what to do next? When Adab has fallen do we wait for our MA's run out to attack the Babs and aim towards horses (hopefully before they get Cavs), or shall we attack a weaker enemy like Spain? The Babs offer good land next to us, but they are powerful and could possible crush us if we are not extremely careful. Maybe we should just go for something really boring like another lux, but the lure of our own horses is great...

anarres
20-02-2004, 03:04
I just thought - maybe I am getting carried away. I had the turns over the GA, and although most the shields have gone in to Marketplaces and Courthouses I have been stockpiling gold at an amazing rate. When our GA ends (and if we go for Knights) we will be destitute, and our army will be costing a lot of money.

If we carry on building units but we don't attack someone soon, we are in deep financial trouble. Since there is nothing else left to build in many cities it seems we have little choice. We could always buy our way to banks and save money to steal our way in to the industrial age, but I think we should grab land now when we get Knights.

Skyfish
20-02-2004, 09:55
Well the idea to go on attacking ppl seems really crazy to me, but I dont know the situation...Why not wait for cavs ?

anarres
20-02-2004, 11:47
Too many units, too much cost...

Edit: Maybe attacking the Babs is over the top, but attacking Spain (for example) isn't out of the realms of possibility.

anarres
20-02-2004, 22:32
Playing order:

KR <-- playing
PP <-- on deck
Kemal
Sky
anar

Kingreno, you're up! Sky, I suggest you just pick up a turn if/when you get time, regardless of order.

Edit: Here is the save. Very embarassingly I had to uplaod at CFC because the uplaod here won't accept it. [cry]
Sid SG 260AD.Sav (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/SSG.260AD.SAV)

Skyfish
20-02-2004, 22:45
I could take the turn now for the week-end before I go on business trip actually...

Skyfish
28-02-2004, 22:10
260: Move some horses on the hill next to Adab and defend them with a Swiss Merc stack.

ibt :Loads of fightings between babs and vikes near adab. The Vikes leave our stack alone :)
Spain & Greece sign vs Zulus
Copenhagen finishes JSBach Cathedral

270 : One of the 2 muskets near Delft retreats. Another musket goes for our Iron...Our army
takes it out with minimal damage.
One vet MdeInf takes out the retreating musket. Our horses attack Adab and all retreat having killed
one elite musket and left the other with 1hp. The babs cant attack adab next turn so we should get it.
Move some MedInfs towards adab.
The Vikes are not willing to give us anything for peace or any discount.

ibt : Yeeha, a bab knight taeks out the musket who was threatening both our FP and Iron !
Babs kill all vikes surrounding Adab and move huge sods near it but can not attack it this turn :)
We lose an Elite MedInf to a Zerk :( but thats the only loss.
india and Greece sign peace.

280 : We lose one medinf, get 2 horse retreats again but take Adab. Position troops to blockade
our borders.

ibt : Babylon and Spain sign peace, thats not cool. Babs leave our lands and move up North !
India and Zulu sign peace

290 : Oh no ! [cry] Vikes are Industrial ! We're a full age behind bar 2 techs...

300 : Heroic Epic completes we run to produce tons of horses, fuck the support for now.
Utrecht produces a horse (it was a 1 turn one too ;) )

ibt : India & Spain sign peace [rolleyes]

310 : Our border cities are at flip risk, I move horses in those.

ibt : Our scouting horseman in Spain gets slaughtered by a Viking cavalry that jumped out of nowhere [eek]
[scared2]

320: We have too many units, we need to inflict damage and actually ...*lose* some units
I move most of our forces from the North to Leiden the extreme SOuth of Holland as everybody knows :D
Also this army of slow units is useless : the idea is to replace them with fast units [evil]

ibt : India and Babs sign vs Vikes, good. We lose oufr galley by Adab to a Vike frigate.

330 : I wont be able to see the plan thru we still have 7 turns of Iron to the Babs but by that time
we will have forces in place to take the spanish cities on our continent. If the war India-Vikes takes
its toll we should even go after India, we need to inflige damage on someone to get some techs and beeline for Cavs.
Not sure about going for banks right now.

340 : We now have enough horses (40+) and enough money to upgrade them all to Knights. On this type of map such a force can
be quite devastating. On top of that we have to send our 18 MedInfs on suicide missions to get rid of the unit support.
The core cities are building Cathedrals and others are building temples/courthouse/markets.

ibt : Our GA finishes, I switch the guv on in all cities (just for this inter-round) to manage the change in happiness.

350 : We make 47gpt with 156gpt troop support and 156gpt to other civs. We need 3 clowns in pre-cath size 12 cities at 20% lux.
Rotterdam has a 13f surplus [crazyeye] which is absolutely no use, but it is making us tons of money.
We have 5999 gold in the bank...that means *all* of our 44 horses can upgrade to knights :D
Lets go baby [hammer]

I have units (the Horses, MedInfs and SwissMercs moving from the northern front to the South..) on auto-move so watch out !
if you dont like it click on them when you open the turn. I believe India is so stretched out we need to go and hit them
to get some techs, we cant let them grow too big : they are killing the Greeks, at war with the Vikes and are behind in techs
(well at least not in IA). Lets first get 2 spanish cities and assess maybe you could build galleys and we can invade Spain, its
only 1 tile of coast to their island...

Good luck!

[b]Download Attachment: icon_paperclip.gif SidSG-350 AD.zip (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/anarres/2004228211517_SidSG-350 AD.zip)
463.27KB

Kingreno
02-03-2004, 10:38
GOT IT

anarres
02-03-2004, 11:23
:D

Skyfish
26-03-2004, 11:48
BUMP
:D