View Full Version : ERIKK vs Beam Open Thread
Thanks to Skyfish for the map. He was quite gracious for the Iroqs starting position looking at the variety of options for food and/or shields and/or commerce. No need for an aquaduct in the cap as well, just were are the luxes and the raging barbs?
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Beam/20031130193823_erikkvsbeamstart.jpg
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Yeah we have raging barbs and might also have some raging ai's...
Pic:
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/20031130203921_beam1.jpg
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Erikk has gone all watercoloury, how cute [love]
ps : whatever you do Erikk PLEASE DONT MINE THAT COW !!!!!!!!!
;)
What about that cow Sky, is it a cover you created for an Al-Quada full of explosives?
lol, I am irrigating it, this take I see some settler factory opportunities!
(but not always!) ;)
quote:Originally posted by ERIKK
.... and might also have some raging ai's...
Like Jerxes raging Shaka and Mao. Right now ai are sitting ducks ready for milking.
Turn 101:
[eek] Those are funny looking guys!!!
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2003127203232_funny101.jpg
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Whats that black hole on the upper left side? [crazyeye]
turn 120: Evil Zulu spirit manipulates Babylon warrior
A Baylonian warrior suddenly pillages a road connecting the Iroquios
empire to their beloved wines. Nobody knows what happens, Babylonian
authorities speak of the 'evil zulu spirits' that are believed to be
present in the region.... Fortunally this all happened in unclaimed
territory! ;)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2003128214817_terror120.jpg
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Babylonian authorities are bullshitting around provocating the peaceful Iroqies. It is very funny however so we consider it an incident. This time.
Many thanks from the Babylonian empire, the Babylonian warrior will now need to rest for 3000
years to recover of this incident! [eek]
[satan]
The shortminded Babylonian authorities are thankful for being referred to as bullshitters and really want to pay this puny warrior for 3,000 years to have a scary holiday in voodoo territory? What happened to honour in Babylonia!
Our warrior is free to rest wherever he (or the spirits who posses him) wants to rest, for as
long as he needs to - as long as he is in unclaimed territory. There is no honour involved
here...
Bullshitting is saying that you are a peacefull civ while being at war for millenia with 2 other
civs and razing lots of innocent Zulu cities. No wonder the Zulu spirits are angry with you! [eek]
;)
Kill that warrior Beam!! [soldier]
Can believe that warrior was allowed to get on that hill !
There s nothing like *neutral* territory whether in real life or Civ [rifle] [mgun][rocket] [plasma]
My comment about irrigating the cow has creatred some confusion in Erikks effort to MicroManage as much as possible in this game, I talked with him on MSM but would like to share with all of you some basic comments of MM. I am not here to lecture everyone but jsut want to show somethin interesting in opening moves and possibly do it in a less cryptic way than "cracker's opening play sequence manual".
The situation we have here is a cow and a wheat on grassland. Its a starting position's dream.
Why ?
Because you can produce 5 bonus food and get the extra shield the cow generates. The common msitake is to irrigate *both* cow and wheat, possibly thinking the extra food will accelerate growth. Its a real waste to do that and I want to clearly show you why/.
I have reproduced that situation in a test game.
I have take a situation without a granary so it appeals more to Erikk ;)
Two scenarios, one with both cow and wheat irrigated, one with the cow mined and the wheat irrigated (other way is fine as well but wont go into those details now).
Scenario 1 :
Here is the starting position, you are producing 6 food bonus and 3 shields, settler ready in 15 turns.
You see that with 6 food bonus the growth will be achieved in 4 turns, you need 20 food and 6 * 3 is 18 so you need 4 turns to achieve growth.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/2003129114519_granary3.jpg
Now this is 3 turns later, you see that you only need 2 food to reach growth but you are producing 6 food bonus, no problem you might think I will jsut carry the food over and thus be faster to the next size....
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/2003129111139_granary1.jpg
Wrong !
The extra food does not carry over,just like shields, it's very important. So in fact you have wasted 4 food but more important you have wasted the extra shields you could have gotten from the mined cow.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/20031291177_granary4.jpg
Look at the situation one turn before producing your settler. You are wasting 4 food again plus you dont have enough shields to produce the settler next turn...how fucked up is that ?
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/200312911381_granary5.jpg
So lets now take a look at scenario 2 :
Here is the starting position same as scenario 1 but cow is mined. Notice how the growth si still achieved in 4 turns, of course 20/4 is 5 so you only need 5 bonus food to achieve quick growth, whether its 5 or 6 bonus it s the same time :)
Also the gaem tells you settler ready in 10 turns becasue of the extra shield which is a great improvement to 15 turns in scenario 1.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/2003129111710_granary2-1.jpg
Now we are one turn after growth, you can see that you will produce the settler in exactly 4 turns with no waste at all wheter shield or food :D
Much better for the environment (now you know why anarres is a micro-manager ..and a whore!)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/2003129112023_granary2-2.jpg[br
Four turns later your settler is produced you have an 8 turn settler factory, later with a granary you can reduce that to 4 turns.
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Skyfish/2003129113128_granary2-3.jpg[br
With scenario 1 it took you 9 turns to get the settler out, 1 turn gained might not seem a lot but its huge.
Also my example is with 2 availabe mined bonus BG, if you dont have that the advantage is even more important and you can sometimes save 2 or 3 turns!
At the end of your expansion phase that 1 turn can translate into 4 or 5 cities [eek]
There is a great article by Bamspeedy at CFC on Babylon Deity settlers based on a GOTM game which shows how critical this can be. A settler out 1 turn earlier can be the difference in claiming iron or not - and winning or losing.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_deity_settlers.shtml
One little addition to Sky's post. It works only like this in despotism, once you revolt to a better government, you lose your despot penalty on food and shields and should rearrange your tiles. Although it's less important than in the start phase where every parcel of food and tiny shield of production count because they'll add up over 500+ turns. Interest on interest so to speak.
Good analysis Sky, but I'd like to point out that in your scenario 1, it seems there's also still a lot of MM'ing possible to achieve a better result:
Lets say that the worker in the example may still move, then (and please correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't this sequence of moves yield the same end-result as scenario 2? :
turn 1: worker heads to the bonus grass to the northwest of Thebes, ,end the turn and 6 food and 2 shields are accumulated.
turn 2: worker starts mine, end turn, 12 food and 4 shields accumulated.
turn 3: shift wheat to bonus grass in thebes, end turn, worker finishes mine, 16 food and 8 shields accumulated.
turn 4: Focus governor on production, end turn, Thebes grows and will use forest as new tile, result is growth in turn 4, and 14 shields accumulated, worker goes to mine other BG.
turn 5 : shift forest tile to wheat, end turn. 6 food and 18 shields accumulated.
turn 6: end turn, 12 food and 22 shields accumulated.
turn 7: shift wheat to BG, end turn, 16 food and 28 shields accumulated.
turn 8: end turn, Thebes grows, settler completed.
This takes a bit more MM'ing, but an advantage is that new cities can profit from the irrigated wheat during the turns when Thebes utilizes the BG instead. In general it's best to aim for a 5 food surplus, but having more than 5 doesn't always mean that resources are being wasted.
Of course I know that Kemal but I was trying to take a simple case scenario where worker actions are left unchanged. My screenshots are misleading it would have been better to start with both bonus BG mined and no workers, in order to focus on the basics.
What you are describing here is *specific* to this situation I was trying to stay general...We should maybe have a TDG (Training) PBEM one day actually :)
The main issue was the belief that food builds up so having 6 is better than 5 bonus.
quote:Originally posted by Kemal
This takes a bit more MM'ing,
a bit more MM'ing [eek][eek][crazyeye], I have to admit, schedules like this one are just a bit too much for me. I'm usually happy just building that +5 food settler fac and sit back and relax.
You scare me Kemal [cool] but also I think this kind of MM'ing really does make the difference in the end on higher levels. You haven't been beaten without reason. And I think on Sid level this kind of methods are the only way to pull it of.
I understand all the MM principles but find it too tedious to do this consistently every turn for every city. I try to MM up to about 1000BC but the really tedious bit is when tiles are shared between cities - especially the first two cities. Taking workers on and off individual tiles is undoubtedly the way forward but I'm happy to settle for beating Emperor civs consistently and beating deity sometimes. I know what I have to do to be better but generally cant be arsed.
[eek]
Damn I was wrong! Sorry Sky and thanks. Next time I start up a game I will be lokking over here
first! MM-ing for dummies! [cool]
quote:Damn I was wrong!
Well I tried to make sure I did not name any names...[blush2]
but you're welcome :D
I had two wheat (no cow) in my PBEM vs Jack M (the game is dying btw). Both irrigated. I used Kemals tactic: use the wheat for another town too.
Point is: I forgot to MM too many times....
[scared2]
quote:We should maybe have a TDG (Training) PBEM one day actually
quote:MM-ing for dummies!
Looks like this is Lesson 1! [book]
quote:I know what I have to do to be better but generally cant be arsed.
LOL
Not sure what your arse has to do with it col but I think I get the point and like you say not sure if training can make me enjoy the tedious aspects of MM-ing enough to play deity.
Somehow Beam developed a strange fixation for this map... [hmm]
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2003122622179_fix.jpg
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[scratch]
I must admit I have no idea what you are talking about Erikk :(
Must be the 10 or so wine bottles we downed in the past few days plus the full whisky bottle with the Churchills we had yesterday all night... :D
ps : I still take it as a compliment to the Map Maker of course ;)
[lol]
It is in the right part of the map but can also be seen around the
Persian city with some imagination...
;)
http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/ERIKK/2003122815521_beam_na.jpg
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Game over.
Erik has more than 20 Cavs and is in GA, building Cavs at a rate of every 3 to 5 turns per city, I am still researching metallurgy :(. Pity because the Iroqs were catching up. Congrats to Erik!
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